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thelex_gw

tankless vs high recovery tank water heater for 4200 sq rancher

thelex
10 years ago

We going to move to a 1960's rancher in the Northern California Sierra Foothills that we are remodeling. The summers are blistering hot at 110F days and nighttime lows of 60F. Winters can get down to 25F at night with highs in the 60's. The U-shaped house is over 100 ft wide with the kitchen/great room in the center. At one end is our master suite with a laundry room. At the other end is the bedrooms for our triplets (2 years old now), another laundry room, and another master suite for our in-laws. We have 5 bedrooms, 4 full baths, 2 dishwashers, 2 laundry rooms, a regular sink in the kitchen and a commercial basin with jet sprayer in the pantry for big pots and pans.

So we usually have at least 4 adults and 3 kids in the house. The kids obviously take baths at this point. My MIL takes baths and her bath tub is 72 gallons. The kids' tub is 55 gallons. Our tub is a 139 gal monster. Our bathroom will have a shower with 3 shower heads. I prefer taking showers with at least one shower head hitting me from each direction. If my wife jumps in there with me, we'd have 3 shower heads going at the same time. When the kids get older they'll probably shower at the same time in the morning one right after another or simultaneously.

Combine this with the fact that we may have washing machines and dishwashers running at some point. We need a LOT of hot water! And we want it NOW with no cold water sandwich.

I was initially drawn to tankless until I started to look at their flow rates for our use in the winter. A 55 degree temp rise yields 7.7 GPM max on the top of the line Bosch or Noritz units. But during the winter it's 25F out there so I'm guessing the flow rate will be even lower. Thus we would need two units.

My contractor suggested we use a separate recirculating hot water line with a separate in-line electric hot water heater feeding a small tank for the recirc line to eliminate the cold water sandwich effect. Needless to say, this gets costly. And I've heard various things as to the reliability of the units.

I'm also not thrilled with the idea of having to clean the heat exchangers every so often.

He suggested as an alternative two conventional 50 gal hot water heaters. But that's what we have now with our current 5 bedroom 6 bath home. And while showering is ok, if we run the dishwashers and/or washer while showering, or if we have multiple people showering one after another, we definitely run out of hot water.

So from this forum I learned about the AO Smith Vertex 100. Apparently this thing has a rapid recovery and delivers a lot of hot water in the first hour. I'm thinking two of these things will give us more than enough hot water no matter the number of showers/baths/appliances we are running. And with a recirc line we'd have nearly instant hot water with only the water sitting in the terminal branch lines that are cool.

My contractor stated he'd use insulated PEX so that the heat drop-off is not as noticeable.

BTW, if we use a Vertex we'd probably have to build a small enclosure around the two tanks on one end of the house since we don't have room in the garage. That's being turned into a home theater at a future date so I don't want any tanks in there.

Any thoughts/comments? Is this complete overkill for our usage? It's a pricey solution but still way less than the two tankless and recirc system alternative.

Comments (10)

  • jackfre
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Be careful with the first hour ratings. On a 100 gal tank you will get about 70-75 gallons of hot on that first load. You then get the balance of the first hr rating over that first hr. For the kind of lay-out you suggest I think you should split the house up into two systems and try to centralize each tank to its load. That minimized pipe losses with the recirc, and yours will be substantial. The very best recirc system is the Metlund Design system. It complies best with all the new Title 24 regs. You will need 3/4" insulation on your hot piping. Again T24. Be very careful with the pex sizing. I re-piped with Uponor and the brass fitting here in the Foothills of N CA. There is a bushing affect on the fittings. The ID of 1/2" is 3/8, 3/4=9/16 and 1" is 13/16. It does make a difference. I have a couple faucets I was surprised how poor the pressure is on my current well 40-60 psi set-up. I had intended to go to a constant pressure well pump but now will definitely do so. Everything is good about the 50 psi range. Not so at 40#

    I am a fan of tankless. I represented a major manuf of tankless for 20 yrs. As far as your suggested products I will only suggest that you avoid Bosch. They, imho, do not have the right technology. Your first step regardless of what you do for equipment is a thorough water test. Manuf of tankless have to list annual cleanings for maintenance, but I had one unit for 12 years and never touched it. It was a pre-production model and I had to replace it prior to selling the house. I cut it in half and it was as clean as a whistle. Many of your plumbing questions and answers begin with the compete water test.

    Tankless (2) could handle your loads until you bring the tubs into play. They represent a massive load, even for your Vertex's. To handle your tub flows you should have two units on each side of the house. The thing about the tankless is they will each make your 7 or so gpm 24 hrs per day, but 135/7=about a 18-20 min fill. Will you wait that long for your bath. I have a bath fill controller on my tub. I set it at 104 and 35 gal (the vol of my tub) and it will deliver 35 gal of 104* water and shut off the hot and beep to tell me my bath is ready. Pretty cool actually. Your shower should be okay with one tankless, but your shower head(s) must fall within the flow capacity of the water heater.

    I can go on and on with this topic. Get your water tested and report back. That should be step one regardless of what your are doing.

  • User
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Better talk to a plumber. There's a lot more water restrictions this year in CA than last year, and you are gonna be challenged to comply with that with all of your high use fixtures. You may not be able to implement your plans without changing to smaller tubs and less numerous sprays than you plan.

  • thelex
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yeah, I heard about this. I'm not so concerned about the tub as we only have the one filler. It's not a jacuzzi type. The shower OTOH has 3 heads and that may be a problem. We're trying to figure a way around that :-)

  • jackfre
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The way around it is to rough it in to code and get your rough in inspection. Prior to Sheetrock you have your plumber modify the shower to your specs. Once you have your final you install your other shower head body sprays etc. Talk to your plumber about this as well.

  • Elmer J Fudd
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Then when it's time to sell the house and sign the disclosure about whether the seller is aware of any work or conditions not in compliance with code, what do you suggest Jack?

    Any disclosure (even something that a buyer might agree with) can cast doubt about what else was done but not mentioned. Not a good idea.

  • thelex
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Shhhhh......I wasn't going to talk about this even LOL.

    I'm not the least bit worried about "casting doubt". NO ONE wants what's in the stupid 2014 regulations except the rabid environmentalists. EVERYONE wants a good hot shower.

    Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

  • jackfre
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Snidely, I understand totally what you are saying. It was intended in more of a joking manner, but joking on-line is tough. Thank you for pointing this out. You are correct.

    I once had to visit a fantastic home that the guy had built a shower that required 25gpm. All the owner could tell me was his shower head was $6,300. He couldn't understand why it couldn't deliver the water he needed for $6,300.

    Btw, this is the way people who insist on these hi-flow fixtures are doing it in CA where the new codes require a max of 2.5 gpm in a shower. That is total flow, not each head. As dry as it has been here my new bathrooms meet the code. To each his own though, so if he wants this, I have described the method.

  • Elmer J Fudd
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm a Californian, I agree about the idiocy of some laws we have and the idiocy of some laws we don't have. But it is what it is. Changing little things after an inspector leaves has been a common practice for ages, it's just that the disclosure rules add a different dimension. Personally, I'd probably have no problem disclosing that some plumbing was changed but that everything else was spit and polish. There's nothing to lose with the whole truth.

    Some years ago, a friend bought a pretty pricey house (>$1 million at the time) near Truckee. It was an older house that had been renovated and substantially added on to. After some odd experiences with electricity (flickering lights), he called an electrician. The guy looked at the panel and behind some wall plates and suggested that the wiring had some problems and seemed amateurishly done. Sensing greater problems, the guy had a general contractor buddy come up to poke around. It turned out, the whole addition had been an unpermitted DIY project of the previous owner and there were substantial problems of all types - plumbing, structure, etc.. The unpermitted work was not disclosed by the seller. My friend sued and won a prompt victory. The outcome was a tear-down and rebuild of the addition, at the sellers' expense, BECAUSE of the non-disclosure.

    An extreme case, and really not relevant to OP's situation, but interesting all the same. The disclosure rules have bigtime legal significance.

  • thelex
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    As it turns out our permit was issued in 2013 so according to my contractor we only need to comply with 2013 regs. WIN!

  • k_rider
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Not sure if this works for your situation. We raised the temperature in the HW heater. We use more cold at the mixing valve and the hot water lasts longer...... We do have pressure balanced valves so we dont have the whooo effect when a toilet is flushed.......