SO.... in your opinion....

These Fleck set-ups do a fairly good job? I just keep questioning myself and the $$$ for some of these units being quoted by Kinetico/Culligan.....etc

Although either the Kinetico 2050 or older K50 model will work with your water, I normally recommend a larger unit such as a 2030 or 2060. There might be a few more questions concerning your water and plumbing that would be helpful to make a complete recommendation.

If it is properly rebuilt with the right resins and float, either should easily last a couple of decades. Are you on well water? Any iron? What is the TDS? Prefilter it and it will do a fine job.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

This is where I am concerned...as I said I did a little research and read MOST of talk on here. I brought up the 2060 and mentioned it was better for my growing family and the kinetico guy said it really isn't bigger and that it was designed for well water...etc

City water, no iron, and not sure of the TDS

Whew! It is defnitely bigger. Yes, it is designed for well water but can be used on city applications, especially with high hardness.

he said something about all kinetico's being as big of a capacity as they need to be because of the twin tanks.... and hoe it regens...etc. I will find the e-mail so i am not misquoting.

After he said there is no real capacity difference and the 2040 would be perfect for me, I said "Oh I thought I read there was a difference.... his reply:

"2060 does have larger capacity but basically all Kinetico units
have virtually unlimited capacity since there are 2 mineral tanks that
alternate back and forth so you are never without soft water 24/7/365. The
2060 is designed for well water since the tanks are not full of resin there
is room to backwash debris from the unit that may come from the well. The
2040 does not need to do that so there is MUCH less water used (7 gallons)
to clean the unit"

Heard that before many times from Kinetico salesman and if you follow that logic he could sell you the smallest Kinetico and it would just regenerate 3 times a day every day...but it would use very little salt and very little water (as the Kinetico sales people like to say)... right?

That's not sizing a softener correctly and it is not efficient operation, but it is the Kinetico way.

hahaha.... this is why I was confused.

Although, I was openly TRYING to buy a higher model # and knowing it cost more money.... so, at least he wasn't trying to OVERsell me.

UGH,..... I may just go with ENTING! ;)

It really is quite simple if you eliminate all the sales people. The numbers are the numbers and for most people a correctly sized and properly set up single resin tank softener works... and working is what you're after along with cost effective and reliable operation.

Kinda like Occam's Razor "the simplest explanation is more likely the correct one".

Yeah, I hear ya... that is why it seemed after my research that a set-up like the "fleck"/"Autotrol"/"Clack" was the way to go..... I was just hoping it would be easier to do as a DIY.

However, I think it would be BEST to go with a local guy who can come out and do tests and make sure it is running effectively...etc.

"a local guy who can come out and do tests and make sure it is running effectively"

Honestly, that should have been your first step and then with that info go to the forums. Nothing wrong with bringing in at least a couple independent water treatment pros for FREE quotes. Just don't blindly believe what they tell you.

Check around locally and ask your neighbors. They might tell you who's good and honest and reliable or who to avoid.

If all else fails then you can order online and with a little help you can assemble and program the softener yourself and then get a plumber to actually hook it up.

I did start there... just came here to try and finalize. My issues is that I don't trust the local guys to do it "right", but they are certainly more qualified than I am.

I have had 2 quotes from local guys doing tests, and 1 from the info I got from those guys.

Yeah, that was going to be my course of action when I was thinking of the DIY.

OK then... we'll explore the DIY route

25 gpg hardness
no iron
no manganese
city water
3/4" plumbing

What's the PH of the water?
How many people?
How many bathrooms?
Any high water use appliances like a Jacuzzi?

Not sure of PH. Both guys pretty much just said that 25 hardness was the only concerning issue.

2 people, one 7 month old and at least one future child planned in the somewhat near future.

2 full and 1/2

Nothing like a jacuzzi

Based on 25 gpg and four people looks like a 2.5 cu ft at a salt efficient setting of 3800 Grains of Capacity PER lb of salt regenerating every 6 or 7 days is what I'd recommend.

Don't let a salesperson downsize you cause it will be less efficient and use more salt.

2.5 cu ft is too large for a 5600 so a 2510SXT or 7000SXT is your choice.

Here are two for comparison (no affiliation with this company):

Fleck 2510SXT

Fleck 7000SXT

I'd want a gravel bed and top basket on both softeners and a Noryl bypass with a 3/4" male thread yoke on the 2510SXT. The 7000SXT comes with a Noryl bypass. If those options aren't listed order by phone and don't let the salesperson talk you out of any of it. None of those options should cost any extra.

The guys here both recommended a 48k, so your recommendation of a 38k (wait, you put 3800....type-o, or am I thinking of the wrong thing?) is good to know.

I haven't heard much in reference to cu ft as a measurement... most is in the vain of 48,000 grain capacity.

I read through a post where you went into GREAT detail with someone concerning the basket and bypass...etc (THEY WILL KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT). haha

I am actually IN Ohio.... so I wonder if I could bother them easier if I have issues. ha

The size of a softener is defined is by the volume of resin in the tank not the xx,xxx because that xx,xxx CHANGES based on the salt applied in regeneration. If you haven't got that from reading this forum then you were skimming and not reading.

That 48,000 that is being recommended to you has 1.5 cu ft of resin. They call it a 48,000 because it looks to the customer as if you're getting the biggest bang for the buck but it's not at an efficient salt dose and it is sort of a lie.

1.5 cu ft of resin can remove...

30,000 grains of hardness @ 9 lbs of salt
36.000 grains of hardness @ 12 lbs of salt
40,500 grains of hardness @ 15 lbs of salt
45,000 grains of hardness @ 22.5 lbs of salt

1.5 cu ft of resin can NEVER give 48,000

For 1.5 cu ft (the 48,000) they recommend you would get an salt efficiency of 1957 grains of hardness removed per pound of salt.

I'm recommending a 2.5 cu ft softener which will get 3800 grains of hardness removed per pound of salt. Just about TWICE as efficient.

You are 100% accurate, and I will not try to hide it..... I am a skimmer (the first step is admitting). If I had found this forum first I would have been OK. I am in a rush now... my wife is gonna KILL me if she can't use the dishwasher (hardwater stains) soon.

I knew once I looked closer and you put 3800 that it must be something I was missing. Cuz, so far from what I have seen... you are "THE MAN". And I do greatly appreciate the help.

OK, so.....

2.5 cu ft on a 2510SXT or 7000SXT ......and a gravel bed and top basket on both softeners and a Noryl bypass with a 3/4" male thread yoke on the 2510SXT.

GOT IT!!!

What else ya got for me!?

If you order online come back and we'll walk you though assembly and programming the control valve.

You'll need to get it installed so a plumber will likely be necessary unless removal of the Kenmore is simple and leaves you with a workable connection.

You might want to contact your local people and tell them what you want and get a price. If they're reasonably priced and include install then why order online?

2.5 cu ft
Fleck 2510SXT with Noryl bypass and 3/4" yoke or 7000SXT
top basket
gravel bed

AWESOME

Yeah, I have a call in to the folks at ENTING who seem to mainly do this "style" of set-up.

THANKS AGAIN!!!

Just for comparisons (I am fairly familiar with this site), I pulled up their version of what you linked.... your price beats it...so that is a plus:

http://www.caitechnologies.com/shopping/ShowItem.asp?ItemID=7000-80

...reading through the description of the one I linked... it says it is only available in a 2 tank design. I can't seem to find that info on the one you linked.... just curious

Cai Technologies has never impressed me.

"This softener is available only as a "two tank" configuration with a separate round poly brine tank in almond".

Do you skim everything?

One resin tank + one brine tank = two tank design... another WRONG way for sales people to describe a softener. Should be the number of resin tanks... single or twin cause every ion exchange softener has to have a separate brine tank... well except the cabinet model like your Sears.

You taught me a VERY valuable lesson... i am NO LONGER a skimmer. I am a CHANGED MAN. However, this error on my part stems from my previous life as a skimmmer. I had been reading(skimming) about the 48,000 grain unit on CAI and I totally missed the "2 tank" line. HOWEVER, because you called me on it (skimming) I have now noticed this line and that is why I mentioned it. My bad

I am curious as to why CAI never impressed you. I don't have any "ties" to them at all, just happen to find them online and their site was fairly impressive unlike some other. I found a cheaper one at affordablewater.us, but for some reason liked CAI better. Just curious where/what you experience with them is.

I did find my quote from ENTING and the scribbles the guy left are for a Model 6700XTR (which I believe to be a FLECK), and on the back of the flyer he left he wrote:

6F940MS for $1219.00
6F940MP for $1369.00

The difference being better resin. It also appears that there is some scribbling that says 40,000 grain capacity. I stress the scribbling because U was not home and his "presentation" to my wife was LACKING to say the least (also one of the reasons I was not very "trusting" of my local guys)

As I mentioned... I found cheaper myself , but for some reason CAI spoke to me... but like I said I have no "ties" to them at all... I was just curious about your comment on not being impressed.

Even earlier I stated your link was cheaper and that was GOOD!!! I said earlier and I quote

"I pulled up their version of what you linked.... your price beats it...so that is a plus: "

So, even MORE kudos you you!!!!

If I remember right you like further work orders to have a PO, right! ;) I may be able to work something out there. ;)

Crap, see I was kinda impressed when I called them and asked a few dumb questions. I guess I didn't ask the right ones...

Believe you me, I already have a pretty good idea what ENTING is going to say and I am not going to like it.... and I am SO interested in OPWC that I googled their location to see if I could find them to see if they were anywhere near Dayton, OH. (so far I can't find out where they are.

I knew you were the right guy to talk too and I GREATLY appreciate the time/frustration in dealing with me and I am certainly sure that the cost savings and smooth operation from purchase to install to maintenance will make me a very happy camper, and I will have you to thank all along the way (if I don't make you too mad in the process). ;)

THANKS AGAIN

you aren't going to believe this (unless you already know)

They are seriously like 4.2 miles from my office. I wonder if they like visitors? haha

CAI: Having a pretty web site/front end does not necessarily mean there's tasty filling inside.

OPWC: They might not like you visiting... ;-)
They most likely don't inventory there as common practice is to drop ship from a regional distributor so you won't escape being browned. I think one of their distributors is in Norton, Ohio.

LOCAL: Give ENTING a chance at the sale... they deserve it cause they spent time with you. If they don't meet your needs it is their loss but you gave them a shot.

Yeah, I hear ya on the tasty filling. As you can probably tell PRICE is one of my MAJOR factors, but also like you have said, sometimes you get what you pay for.... it is a tough line to follow between the 2. ha

Yeah, I kinda figure they won't like me visiting....kinda makes me fell cheated on the "free shipping" when I am right around the corner and could pick it up though! haha

From what you have told me ENTING has done nothing but waste my time with an inaccurate assessment. HOWEVER, I am NOT looking forward to going at it alone (with the wonderful up of others, on the internet)so I will let them "show me what they've got"

There's nothing wrong with paying more for service, knowledge, convenience, or expertise. ENTING may surprise you and then again they may not... but they will have done it themselves.

A dollar's worth for a dollar is the best deal that ever was, is, and ever will be.

Thing is that some (many?) people want to pay $.75 and get a dollar's worth.

Usually they end up paying $.75 and getting $.50 cents worth, but so few realize that happened that they never learn their lesson.

INdeed...I am in the "field service" industry so I know ALL about service calls and maintenance contracts and the VALUE of someone who knows what they are doing.

I should be in contact with ENTING today

I am waiting to here back on specifics of installation and "service" costs...

2.5 cu ft @ $115.00 per cu ft or $287.50
Fleck 2510SXT with Noryl bypass and 3/4" yoke or 7000SXT @ $699.45 (2510 meter sxt) or $561.53 (7000 meter sxt)
top basket @ $2.01
gravel bed @ $20.47
Prices exclude tax and/ or shipping

Too hard for them to give you a quote?

What's the difference between the two prices on the 2510 and 7000?

I sent them an e-mail early in the morning, as I knew I would be with customers all day and wouldn't be able to call. I guess they didn't understand I was curious about installation and maintenance as well....

Looks like about $130 diff between the 2510 and the 7000

There are two versions of the 2510... mechanical meter and SXT electronic.

There is one version of the 7000 and that is the 7000SXT.

No a la carte for you... ask them for a quote on the softener to your specs delivered and installed and what is the warranty... parts or parts & labor and for how long?

2510SXT
Noryl bypass and 3/4" NPT yoke
2.5 cube standard hi-cap resin
resin tank, dist tube top & bottom basket
gravel bed
brine tank with salt grid and Fleck 2310 safety float

OR...

Fleck 7000SXT (bypass is included)
2.5 cube standard hi-cap resin
resin tank, dist tube top & bottom basket
gravel bed
brine tank with salt grid and Fleck 2310 safety float

I am probably being dumb, but I must be missing something.... what do you mean by "no a la carte for you"?

I meant... no pricing piece by piece by piece... just give the customer a quote for the softener he wants installed.

...oh, gotcha

Thanks

.......the response:

A complete unit installed (7000 Sxt) would cost $1549.00. It has a one year service warranty, 10 year warranty on the mineral tank, a five year warranty on the brine tank & electronic controls. We do not stock the 2500SXT.

OPWC = $732

CAI = $990

Enting = $1549

For twice the price Enting will assemble the softener, deliver the softener, install the softener, and give you a one year labor warranty over the comparable parts only warranty of 10 year on tank and five year on control valve.

Considering that the online sellers and Enting are buying their softeners from the same distributor that's a nice profit.

I'm a big fan of buying locally and supporting local economies but not at twice the price.

I would have an eyeball to eyeball with the owner (boss) at Enting and explain that the softener they quoted you can be had for $732 delivered and that you place a value on their assembly and installation skills and knowledge and one year labor warranty but not at twice the price.

Give him the what's you best price stare down and see what he says.

Then make up your mind.

Either way, when the time comes I'll email you the programming.

Yeah....that is kinda the conclussion I had when I started this danged search. Twice the price is not something I am very interested in....although I am also not looking forward to the DIY aspect and doing tests to ensure proper efficiency....etc

.....I will have to see what I can do to get the price down. I talked to a buddy of mine who used to do sales for ENTING...he said it not likely they would move on their price!

Whether or not ENTING will come down on price is their choice and you have to do what you have to do. It's your money and only you can spend it.

Bear in mind that buying online, even from the best seller, there is no service by definition. You'll get a defective part swapped out but not right now and you'll have hard water waiting for UPS or FedEx and you'll be doing the work with support over the phone or online and you can't move it closer to the keyboard so we can see it to help you.

As long as you factor those things into your decision then it we be an informed one. You'll want to stay on good terms with ENTING cause you might be calling them for service or a part down the road and there's no reason to antagonize them.

Hey, not necessarily TWICE THE PRICE. You were looking at that 2.5 cube softener @ $990 online.

At $990 online... $1549 assembled, delivered, installed, and a one year labor warranty is a fair deal.

Ah, you are holding me to the CAI again.... I stated several times I had no ties to them and why I was questioning them.

...which is why I came here.... for advice on specific brands, sites, companies... etc.

My twice the price since the beginning comment was also based on my original dealing with ENTING and their original quote, which I found to be almost twice the price.

Using your advanced knowledge, I called the folks at OPWC to throw caution to the wind and see if they may be able to set me up with someone local who they recommend. It turns out they can/will/did and I have a guy they recommend coming out on Thursday to take a look at what I have going on. Typical install and set-up is about $150. A little more than what I would have liked, but seems reasonable enough if I like what he has to say. So, that will put me at under $1000 (close) and about $600 under ENTING. Yeah, I lose their warranty and local support, but for the $600 savings, I can add $100 to it and buy a whole other system to replace it if something goes horribly wrong....

I also will be able to see what this local guy can bring to the table as far as repairs and/or periodic checks of my hardness.... heck, I may even have him show me how to do it and buy the tester myself..... THE WORLD IS MY OYSTER now that you have helped me out so much.

THANKS AGAIN, I look forward to bouncing the set-up numbers and anything the "local guy" says off of you (and others) for verification...etc!!!

You can check the hardness with simple to use test strips.

$150 for a licensed plumber to assemble and install a softener is a deal in most areas. Here, I can't get a plumber to return a phone call for $150.

....info I got back from OPWC when asked which systems I was looking at.


Hi.....!

Thanks for contacting the Ohio Pure Water Company...!

I prefer the Fleck 2510 SXT valve over the 7000SXT, as we have had better results with the 2510 model, and I believe it is the better, of the two controls. The 2510 model is also easier to work on, than the 7000 model.
Plz Note that all our Residential Softener units come are complete units including, Top Baskets, Fleck Stainless Steel Bypasses, larger 15x17x36" or 18x33" Brine Tanks on the 64000 gr size softener....... and the 18x40" Brine tank on the 80,000 gr softener. All Brine Tanks include Salt Grids in the bottom of the tank and the Fleck 2310 Safety Float Assembly, too.

1.) Our 64,000 grain water softener with the Fleck 2510SXT Electronic Metered valve, for whole house filtration of hardness from your water, and can be located at this link on our web site..... http://ohiopurewater.com/shop/customer/home.php?cat=181

I would recommend this softener be set to regenerate about every 2000 gallons, which would be an average regeneration of about every 7 - 8 days, with 4 people in the home.

1ea Fleck 2510SXT Meter On Demand Control Valve Water Softener 64000 Grain Capacity

12x48 resin tank
2.0 cubic feet of resin
13 gpm service flow rate
3.0 gpm backwash flow rate
Floor Space Required is 28x15x56

Selected options:
Fleck Valve Connection: 3/4 Inch Stainless Bypass Valve
Tank Color Option: Blue
Brine Tank Size: 15x17x36 Rect Brine Tank
Softening Resin (2.0 cuft): High Capacity Resin

Our Price............................................. $742.00

Or..... the larger 80,000 gr size unit....

2.) Our 80,000 grain water softener with the Fleck 2510SXT Electronic Metered valve, for whole house filtration of hardness from your water, and can be located at this link on our web site..... http://ohiopurewater.com/shop/customer/home.php?cat=181

I would recommend this softener be set to regenerate about every 2600 gallons, which would be an average regeneration of about every 9 - 10 days, with 4 people in the home.

1ea Fleck 2510SXT Electronic 3/4 Inch Meter On Demand Control Valve Water Softener 80000 Grain Capacity

13x54 resin tank
2.5 cubic feet of resin
Gravel Support Media
18 gpm service flow rate
3.5 gpm backwash flow rate

Selected options:
Fleck Valve Connection: 3/4 Inch Stainless Bypass Valve
Tank Color Option: Blue
Brine Tank Size: 18x40 Round Brine Tank
Softening Resin (2.5 cuft): High Capacity Resin

Our Price............................................ $885.00

We have all items in stock and our internet price includes Ohio Sales Taxes & Shipping to your address in the lower 48 US States....!

I recall posting earlier in this thread... "I'd want a gravel bed and top basket on both softeners and a Noryl bypass with a 3/4" male thread yoke on the 2510SXT. The 7000SXT comes with a Noryl bypass. If those options aren't listed order by phone and don't let the salesperson talk you out of any of it. None of those options should cost any extra"

You have drug this thread out to over 50 posts aand I told you what I recommended and why and I gave you the numbers and showed you the difference between how most softener sellers size and the correct way to size for SFR and salt efficiency.

The email you received is exactly what I told you softener sellers would recommend... inefficient operation and longer intervals between regeneration than optimal and usually too small a softener.

Had I realized earlier that helping you was a waste of my time I could have saved myself a lot of typing...

Make your decision and set it up as the seller recommends and it will work. It won't work as efficiently and will cost you money in wasted water and salt that there's no reason to waste but heck... it ain't my money and my softener works GREAT..

My post was to verify your words....not counteract them. My apologies if you took it otherwise....

I met with the installation guy and he seems nice enough and well informed...

I am going to likely pull the trigger tonight and order the items in the previous post totaling $885....

I am kinda excited. Wish me luck

in the order page it does ask about 2 other "options. Any thoughts?

Resin:

High Capacity (included)
Fine mesh (+ $173)
SST60 ( + $210)

AND

No Can Pro Media
Can Pro Media KDF55 + $119
Can Pro Media KDF85 + $119

Is either "worth" upgrading?

It is DONE!!!

All ordered and should be here on Monday!

YIPPEE

Thanks all who responded..... justalurker! ;)