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Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Posted by indygal (My Page) on
Tue, Jan 15, 08 at 7:09

We're building a new house and trying to decide if the EasyWater system would be a good one for us. Indiana water is very hard on appliances plus we're tired of hoisting those bags of salt. Does anyone have pros or cons about EasyWater?


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Softening is a chemical process. Period. When hardness, in the form of calcium and magnesium ions, is dissolved in water, it has a positive charge (+2). As water is passed through a softner resin bed, those ions attached themselves to the resin, releasing 2 sodium ions (+1, each). Now the soft water no longer has hardness ions to create hard deposits in your appliances and on surfaces in your home. The salt you hate to lug(and no one likes to do it) is used to make a strong brine solution to regenerate the resin. As the strong brine passes over the resin, it forces the calcium a magnesium off of the resin and replaces them with sodium again, ready to soften more water.

There is NO SUCH THING as electronic, magnetic or other voodoo softening. You cannot, by virtue of an electrical current or magnetic field, change the fundamental properties of a calcium ion to prevent it from causing scale, except for the exact location where the field is located. Once that water is heated up, in your hot water heater for instance, or the water is disturbed at all (running through your pipes will do it), you no longer have any effect at all from the magnetic field and you're right back where you started. Scaling.

I find it particularly interesting that the company you are looking at does not in any way actually explain their "technology" nor do they list any companies they work with. Their pictures are bogus and unverified and their assertions are ridiculous. They are counting on the fact that most people do not know enough about water chemistry to realize their assertions are fundamentally flawed.

My credentials: Chemical engineer with 10 years of water treatment experience. I have specified treatment for boilers and cooling water treatment for anything from small commercial units to huge industrial facilities. At all times before new treatment was allowed, the perspective water treatment companies had to prove their recommendations at the facility in question. Funny thing, but all of the no-salt "softener" folks refused a real-world test, every time, without exception. They all wanted me to purchase their systems without independent verification. Gee, I wonder why? You cannot soften water without removing the hardness.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

EasyWater will not help you. The 2000 model goes for about $1100 and it just won't do a thing to improve your water to any noticable extent. We have seen too many people disappointed after being so reassured that this will make your water feel better, soaps last longer, water tastes better and so on.

Wrapping an electric wire around the pipe may have some effect on scale build up prevention. Anti-scaling devices are very important in industrial applications for boilers, tubines and highly sensitive equipment but of little value in residential situations.

None of these have any NSF or WQA cerifications. Their biggest sales pitch is "salt-free", "environmental friendly" and "No maintenance", which arte all true but nonetheless, useless.

Anyway, if you decide to buy, go ahead and do it and after six months, please rip your plumbing apart to see if you notice any improvement and let us know.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

"Wrapping an electric wire around the pipe may have some effect on scale build up prevention. Anti-scaling devices are very important in industrial applications for boilers, tubines and highly sensitive equipment but of little value in residential situations."

Andy -- Only, possibly, at the location of the wrap. Chemical treatment and deionization are very important for boilers, turbines and other industrial applications. Anti scale devices are even more useless in industry than in residential situations because millions of dollars of equipment and production time are on the line. There was a period of time in the 60's and 70's where many of these anti scale devices were installed in industrial systems. Systems were purchased by plant managers (business, not technical people) who bought into the hype generally against engineering advise. They didn't work. Back to chemical treatment.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Thanks for the input andy and alice. I thought this sounded too good to be true. We'll stick with the tried and true method of softening our water. At least we won't have to haul the salt bags to the basement in the new house. The builder plans to put the brine tank in the garage. By the way, do you think potassium chloride or salt does a better job?


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Alice,

I am bending to your advice and experience. I stay away from these systems except for removal. I have never heard of one acceptable use for them in person.

Thank,
Andy Christensen, CWS-II


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I think aliceinwonderland just stumbled across the next big thing: voodoo water softening. Given that electronic water softeners or magnetic water conditioners or whatever you want to call them only can be considered to "work" if you realize that their true function is to transfer money from you to the scamster's pocket. They actually work depressingly well at that.

But there's still all the parts for the scamsters to buy, power cords or magnets, little blinky LEDs and the like. And they at least have to test them enough to be sure that they won't electrocute their buyers. That's really bad for business.

So coming soon: Voodoo water softening -- For the low, low price of $200, I will construct a representative model of the annoying calcium and magnesium ions in your water. And then through that model into the trash, thereby through the power of sympathetic magic all of the calcium and magnesium ions in your water will likewise be destroyed.

Genius!


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

How about this for a working model? Stops scale and stress! Multipurpose unit, therapeutic for both you AND your pipes! (insert evil chuckle here)


Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting



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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I like it. Although it is clearly the deluxe version, which costs $500, since it will handle iron, total desolved solids, chlorine, sulphur, odor and bacteria in addition to calcium, magnesium and the scale that they cause.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Excellent! Since we're on the subject of voodoo-zapping those evil water ions, can someone explain why a brine tank keeps water soft through pipes and such, whereas voodoolectrolized water is only "soft" at the location of the wrap? Just curious.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I am a registered professional engineer. I currently own an engineering/architectural design firm. Back about 20 years (1988) ago I worked in a manufacturing plant where the plant manager installed (against my recommendation) a "magnetic" water treatment system for the boilers. It almost destroyed the boilers from scale-up problems. Ask yourself this: If this EasyWater system really worked, why are Culligan and other not on the bandwagon and producing them? There are no barriers to entry into this marked, and based on the pictures on EasyWaters website, the profit margins must be very high for what you get. My professional opinion says "run away fast from voo-doo man!"


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

It seems no one who has posted here actually has an EasyWater system.
I HAVE a system and love it. It took about a week before I really started to see the effects, but once I did I was very happy.

The first place I noticed a difference was in the dishwasher. The calcium buildup on the inside started to go away. Our EasyWater came with a bottle of "lemonshine" to use with our powder detergent. I didn't use it at first and there were some spots on my glasses, but once I started using it they were gone. The biggest difference I have seen was in my showerhead. Water actually flows out of all of the holes now and there is water pressure. The buildup that had occurred is now gone and isn't coming back.

When I did first installed my EasyWater, I didn't like it. I felt like my hair was not as clean and was heavy. I called the company to ask them about it. They said that the actual hardness of our water had increased because the system was cleaning out the pipes and the existing scale in the pipes was being dissolved back into the water. We took advantage of the 90 day guarantee and kept the system a few more weeks. Sure enough after about 4 weeks my hair and skin felt better.

I've been very happy with my EasyWater. It has done what they said it would. I don't like the slimy feel you get from a salt softener, so I'm happy.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

eb126, did you have a watersoftener before you installed the EasyWater system? It doesn't sound like it since you evidently had a lot of scale build up. Is it possible that the Easywater improved your water a little but that it is still nothing close to having a real water softener? That could be the case since many people who do not have watersofteners do not know what they are missing.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Jeremy-indy,

I didn't see you question earlier. Sorry about that. The reason softeners protect your whole piping system is because they physically remove the calcium and magnesium from the water. The brine tank does not remove the hardness - the softening resin does that. Simply put, the softener resin has a bunch of bodies ions hanging off of it. However, it has a stronger attraction to calcium or magnesium. As water flows through, the resin releases sodium and grabs calcium, leaving the water soft. When the resin has grabbed as much calcium as it can hold, a strong brine solution is run through the resin bed, overwhelming it with sodium so it is forced to release the calcium and grab sodium. This solution is sent to the drain, the bed is rinsed of brine and the softener is ready for service again.

The electronic or magnetic gizmos don't remove anything from the water, therefore leaving the hardness scaling mechanism entirely intact.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

We found a system called Scalewatcher from Aqua Genesis Co. It's working fine. They showed me independent research. I will post it in a follow-up message.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

<< We found a system called Scalewatcher from Aqua Genesis Co. It's working fine. They showed me independent research. I will post it in a follow-up message. >>

Who is "they"? The sales staff? Internet marketers? Excuse my scepticism but how do you knnow it is working fine? Have you removed plumbing fixtures for before-n-after inspections?

I have seen these things in so many houses and all of them have given no noticeable improvement until the ownere just gave up.

Good luck
Andy Christensen, CWS-II


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Aqua Genesis is the company that sold it to us and showed me the research. I too was skeptical at first, but with their one year money back I thought, what do I have to lose? Well after a few days the white scale in the showerhead started to get softer and in a few more days it was "spanking clean", all the scale around other faucets also disappeared, I understand that if external scale goes away, the same is happening inside the pipes and inside the water heater. Then the water heater started recovering much faster. As an unexpected boon my severe skin itching and "psoriasis" went away and we love the taste of the water now (it was bitter before). The company website is www.scalewatcherUSA.com and you can find all the info there, they also give a lowest price guarantee.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Here's my husband's reponse to the initial post by Alice in-wonder-land:
ELECTRONIC WATER CONDITIONERS WORK
Dear Alice in-wonder-land et al,
You are right to want to see independent lab reports and proof that the electronic descaling technology works. I am so happy to help you, and your rightly concerned friends with that. I did my homework before I invested in one of these electronic water conditioners, and it paid off for us.
You can FIND INDEPENDENT RESEARCH in this link http://www.aquagenesisusa.com/IndepResearchSW.html BUT DON'T SIMPLY BELIEVE THE EXPERTS' STATEMENTS, dig deeper, go to the .pdf files posted at the bottom. Use your engineering background to study the actual research.
I am happy to report that the Scalewatcher company, which has sold over a quarter million electronic descalers in over forty countries, is still in business and growing fast. They offer a ONE YEAR MONEY BACK WARRANTY, the results: less than 1% are returned!
EasyWater is as good as Scalewatcher, just a bit pricier.
All of you naysayers, you can remain skeptics and keep lugging salt bags and ruining the environment FOR YOUR CHILDREN, or be open to accept the modern reality (I know, its tough for the softener companies), look at the facts and give electronic water conditioners a chance to prove themselves FOR YOU. Save Energy, stop polution.
My credentials: Chemical engineer with 22 years of experience. I studied the real world tests conducted by the University of Portsmouth and many of other tests by independent labs and they all make sense.

Here is a link that might be useful: Electronic Descalers that work


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

The "research" paper cited, while it does have a letterhead from University of Portsmouth at the top, does not include any of the following:

1) Researcher name. No one wants to take credit? Hardly university standards.
2) Researcher credentials. Really?
3) Research department.
4) Research sponsors.
5) Repetition of testing, which is absolutely essential.
6) Data or testing of water in or out of the system. It could be different water at each test phase. Laughable.
7) Data or testing on the scale. Chemical composition? Crystal structure?
8) Indication of how the initial scale was formed on the tube. No control of the test.
9) Data or testing to indicate the mechanism for scale removal. Just plain shoddy work.

The paper would be barely acceptable at highschool level. The "researcher" was either incompetent, or attempting to defraud consumers who are not scientifically adept. Shameful.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

The easywater system will descale your home but that is it. You will still have spotting and buildup outside the faucets, showers etc. I would also tell you that it does not prevent scale from building up in the dishwasher nor prevents spots on your glasses. The Limon Shine they give you removes the scale and makes your glasses sparkeling clean, not the easywater unit. When we ran out we could not find the stuff and we had to call the manufacturer to find out who sold it. You can find that at Wal-mart for a lot less than a no salt water softener.

I do feel the system does what they say - to a degree "Remove Scale build-up". However, it all ends up in our sinks, showers, and counter tops. My wife feels she has to clean even more now then when we had a softener. The system does work but as a alternative to a water softener, the easywater and other electronic systems fall way short.

Go for the Water Softener "My mama always said a Happy Wife Happy Life"

We are heading to Lowes to buy a new softener.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I have little or no knowledge of water treatment or chemistry. There was an inconsistency between the expert report and the Portsmouth U test.

Read the Expert Report section 3 viii and ix. Then read the Portsmouth U test Introduction 1st Paragraph and comment 2.

The expert says "nucleation" by a variable electric (charge?) field not the magnetic field which he says is far too weak.

The Portsmouth tester says the magnetic field causes the CaCO3 to "coagulate".

So which is it? Makes you wonder.

However my neighbor who installed an EasyWater unit says it seems to be working.

I need to install a water conditioner for my hot water radiant heat system (Radientec Open Direct")


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Addendum to my post.

I forgot to mention that the "Independent Research" was for the Aqua Genesis "Scalewatcher" unit. Reached through the link at the end of the last "Elwin" post.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

So we know that salt brine softeners do work. Conflicting reports on the magnetic units leave us skeptical. The only reason to pick one over the other is residual salinity of brine treatment (I can't taste it so it must be pretty small) and getting off the couch to handle the bags/blocks of salt.

Since you need a chemical engineering degree and decades of water treatment experience to decide, maybe someone out there can get a few billion dollars from the government bailout TARP deal and do a truly scientific and honestly independent study. In the meantime we can use the exercise. I just loaded 3 eighty pound sacks in my unit. Now where's the remote!


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I have been looking at this EasyWater system for my home, we presently use a water softener. We have a lot of scaling on our faucets and shower heads. I Googled "easywater" and began reading forums. Check out post from eb126,
saw the exact same quote on another forum.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/rural-living/120232-easywater-system-real-deal-snake.html

Same user as this, only one post. Must be PR for EasyWater. I will stick with the science and avoid the VooDoo.
Thanks.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

With all the conflicting opinions regarding electronic water softeners, one feature claimed for them SEEMS to be accepted as true; they will descale the plumbing, even if they don't serve as true water softeners.

IF that is indeed true, then the technology should, in time- remove much of the old scale buildup inside old galvanized water lines and with so many companies making them and all seemingly using the same technology; would any one mfg. be that much better than another?

Our water isn't all that hard, but nearly 60 years of it in our house (built in 1951) has built up enough scale inside our water lines to cause a drop in pressure, so if one of those gadgets would remove even some of that buildup, it would be worth buying it, as the only alternative would be to replace the pipes, resulting in a plumbing bill near equal to what we paid for the place 41 years ago.

Otherwise, our only issue with the water as it comes from the tap is rust that causes stains and we address that with an online filter installed on the main line, set just beyond the meter. Currently, it's a single, but we will be replacing it with a triple, with coarse, medium and fine media in that order, to trap as many iron particulates as we can before the water gets to the rest of the lines.

If one or even several of the electronic gadgets, installed just beyond the filters would then help clear what is already built up in them, we would be satisfied.

Any comments from folk who have installed and used one for the same purpose in an OLDER home?


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Sorry birdwidow, but their descaling ability is NOT accepted as true in any scientific circles. The only "studies" (and I use the term loosely here) are those published by the companies trying to sell these things. The ONLY possibility these things have for descaling is right at the location where the magnet it connected until you hit an elbow or other disturbance. I suppose, if you wanted to place magnets after every elbow through your entire hot water system [hardness scaling only occurs after the water has been heated], you could descale your system, but the cost would be astronaumical.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

"hardness scaling only occurs after the water has been heated"

Now I'm really confused.

My husband replaced the old gavalanized line running from the meter to it's first joint with copper, but that line never held any but cold water and it was nearly closed due to rock hard scale build up.

That line was relatively easy, as it's fully exposed, but the rest are all hidden under finished ceilings in the basement and why we would find it a great boon to find some means of clearing them other than ripping out all of the ceilings to get to the old pipes.

I'm not questioning the validity of the advice offered here by those who profess to be experts and as such, suppose the answer will have to be a conventional water softener, although we will still replace the single rust filter with a triple on the line immediately after the meter. The filters are cheap, as are the replacement cartridges, especially if bought in bulk and the one we have now has proven to be quite effective at trapping rust particulates.

So I'm presuming; hopefully not foolishly; that removing most of the rust particulates before the water enters the softner might extend the life of the softener and/or the softener media.

But that still leaves us with old galavanized pipes that have become scaled up over the years and for that; I still don't know what would be the best affordable answer.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

There are other types of scale that are not hardness-based that could affect your cold water pipes.

As to your rust filter, if you are only removing particles of rust and not dissolved rust, you will still have a problem with a conventional softener if your dissolved rust is too high.

It is impossible to offer concrete advice without a water test. At this point we are only guessing what could actually be in your water and the nature of the scale you are seeing in your pipes. We can only offer general information.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Thank you alice. Your reply gives me a better undersanding of the issues and a direction in which to seek a solution.

Our water looks clear from the tap and has no rusty taste, so your suggestion of dissolved rust would seem the most rational. It's must also be in fairly low solution, or surely we would see and taste it.

Fortunately, one aspect of water filtration I do understand is that of using media from coarse through very fine in decending order and plan to apply it to the supply coming through the main. As I previously wrote; they are cheap, as are the cartridges and fairly effective, so anything that might eliminate most if not all of the dissolved rust before it hits the softener and after that the furnace humidifier and WH would be a benefit.

I wish we could test the water to see what caused the buildup to begin with, but can't. The original supply was via a well on the property that was capped when the connection to a municipal supply was made in 1969 and the municipality that supplies the water installed new wells about 10 years ago. So what is coming from the tap now may not have the same properties.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

birdwidow,

Regarding "one aspect of water filtration I do understand is that of using media from coarse through very fine in depending order and plan to apply it to the supply coming through the main".

Do you also understand that along with the initial pressure and flow rate drop across the installed inline housing that as the filter clogs and as you install filter elements capable of removing smaller and smaller particles you will experience additional flow and pressure drop?

The filter housing and installed elements must not adversely effect the SFR (service flow rate) of the water supply.

In many instances, two 20" big blue filter housings should be installed in parallel and, IMO, pressure gauges should always be installed before and after filter housing so pressure drop can be monitored and the filter elements changed as soon as a significant pressure drop across the filter elements are seen.

Water filtration is but one aspect of water treatment and in some cases filtration merely treats a symptom but does not cure the disease.

Water treatment, especially on well water, should always begin with a comprehensive water test by an independent lab. On a well that should also include a bacteria test at a regular interval.

With those test results you will know what is in your water and a comprehensive plan can be designed to treat what you deem necessary.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

We do have a pressure guage installed on the line after the filter and check it regularly, but never thought to install one before it. However, we do use the one to monitor the pressure and replace the cartridge when we see a drop below 50, but if it has good pressure coming out of a clean filter, why wouldn't it be good coming into it?

That line is new copper, installed just last year. The line from the hydrant was replaced about 5 years ago. (The line was cheap compared to the guy with the backhoe.)

The real problem is in the lines connected to that new copper pipe, which is exposed, so was fairly easy to replace. The remaining ones are still galvanized and hidden above finished ceilings, and why I would have been thrilled to find a device that might have helped clear them without the need to tear out all of those ceilings.

The water originates from a public well, is treated by the municipality that supplies us and is presumably tested by our states' EPA, as all public water supplies in my state are regulated by that agency. Nevertheless, I will follow your suggestion and send a sample to an independent lab for testing and compare it to the EPA report, just to be sure.

I do regular water tests myself because I keep tropical fish, not because we have ever believed the water wasn't safe to drink, but that's why I know it's hard coming from the tap and have a small RO unit in my basement fish room and another, much larger unit in my greenhouse hatchery.

But now my husband is on a salt restricted diet, so if we do have to install a conventional softener, I expect another RO filter will follow, below the kitchen sink. He draws water from the RO unit in the basement for his coffee maker, but drinks the water coming from the refrigerator tap, so I can see yet another source that would need to be treated to remove salts.

There must be an easier solution but alas, as much as the electronic filters are hyped; from what I have read here, it appears they aren't it.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Since you are on a municipal water system and not a private well your water conditions should be relatively consistent. Your municipality can/should provide you with the results of EPA required testing so you know what's in your water and what you want to remove. Independent lab testing is not required.

Hardness above 1-2 grains per gallon is considered hard and will result in all the things people complain happens with hard water. Calcium deposits, stiff clothes, spots on dishes, and earlier failure of faucets, water heater, and generally making life more difficult for anything the hard water gets to.

Those on a salt restricted diet can use potassium chloride (KCl) instead of sodium chloride as a regenerant in the softener. Costs more than salt but so does a coronary bypass.

Soften the water to the whole house and put an RO under the kitchen sink to feed a dedicated faucet and the fridge.

As far as no salt or electronic or magnetic softeners or conditioners you can achieve the same results by just wishing your water soft.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

With EasyWater, the hardness minerals, calcium and magnessium, are not removed. There has been some confusion on these message boards as to what EasyWater actually does. Alot of these so called chemists, which I truly am, have stated it is impossible to soften water unless you actually remove the hardness minerals. This is true, but never,have I ever heard EasyWater claim to softern the water. Their claim is they condition the water. Those hardness minerals have a positive charge to them. Remember from high school chemistry that anything with a positive charge is attracted to a negative. In this case the negative charge is your pipes and water heater. Those hardness minerals group together and form what is known as lime scale. With EasyWater, that positive charge is removed. What then happens is those hardness minerals no longer have the ability to group together and stick to your pipes. So to recap, EasyWater is not removing those healthy, hardness minerals and replacing them with twice as much sodium, as a traditional salt softener. Instead, they leave those beneficial minerals in the water, and take away their ability to cause lime scale. I have done a lot of research on these systems and with EasyWater, I can honestly say it works. I have had mine for over 2 years now and have no scale build up, and my tankless water heater works better than ever, and I have had the same shower head for a year and a half, with better water pressure than ever before. Dont believe everything you read on the internet, as most of these so called chemists really are just salt softener company owners.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

michigan4204,

Sorry dude, you sound like an infomercial.

AliceInWonderland has a lot of credibility on this board - and you will need to post a lot more real info before you start casting any doubt on that.

The bottom line is that there is never a good, solid explanation of how these systems are supposed to work or any valid research to show that they work in general. Neither is there specific information on the effectiveness of a particular unit.

I'd like to see some real research on this stuff. If a magnetic field really causes some change in the water - how strong does that field have to be? Does it have to alternate? At what frequency does it need to alternate to for optimum effectiveness, etc. etc. I would want to see some analysis of the water that has been treated that would actually measure the level of "conditioning" and I would want proof - with a control group - that there was some useful benefit to this "conditioning".

I'm a reasonably intelligent guy and this has "voodoo" written all over it.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

michigan4204,

Now I understand... the Easywater does not soften water it makes the water think it is soft.

Why bother with an Easywater? Just sit down at the water meter and have a long heart to heart with your water. Explain to it that soft is better and if your water really wants to it can be soft. Tell your water to close it's eyes, click it's heels three times and say... there's nothing like soft, there's nothing like soft, there's nothing like soft.

I have 30g hard water, an ion exchange water SOFTENER, and a 13 year old water heater when the neighbors are replacing their water heaters every couple years and I can't remember ever replacing a faucet cartridge or bib washer.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

j stalker,

You're right. That is exactly what EasyWater does. That is why salt softener companies are going out of business daily. Thats why the owners of salt softener companies are trying to join EasyWater's dealer network so they can get some business. You actually should call up Sam Walton, you know the founder of Wal-Mart, and tell him that the thousands and thousands of dollars he has spent on puting an EasyWater in every Wal-Mart in the country, has really been spent on "snake oil" or "voodoo softening".
Don't knock something you have no clue about.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

And J Stalker,
You said hardness over 2 grains per gallon is considered hard water. Where do you get your info? People do not listen to this person. He has no clue what he is talking about. Hardness over 7gpg is considered hard water. 85% of the U.S. has "hard water." 0-1gpg is soft water, 1-3.5gpg is considered slightly hard water, 3.5-7gpg is moderately hard, 7-10.5gpg is hard, and anything over 10.5gpg is extremely hard. If you have 1-2 grains harndess, you will most likely not have any signs of hard water. After reading Mr. Stalkers previous posts, I don't feel so bad about him trying to slam the comments I made. He obviously is not a very educated man.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

michigan4204,

"You actually should call up Sam Walton, you know the founder of Wal-Mart...". I don't believe Sam Walton is taking calls... he died in 1992

Here's some (not too technical) reading to help you sort out your confusion click here to learn

Note the Water Quality Research Council's Water Supply Classifications with hard water starting at 1 grain of hardness.

Some people just open their mouths to change feet.

Here endeth the lesson.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

You provided a link that says hard water starts at 7gpg. What were you trying to prove? Slightly hard water is not the same as hard water. You must be new to this.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

michigan,

"Slightly hard" is not hardly soft. The inclusion of the word HARD denotes a level of HARDNESS. Hardness of SOME level begins at 1 grain per gallon.

When you're a hammer you treat everything as a nail... The Easywater apparatus DOES NOT SOFTEN WATER. When you can run hard water through an Easywater apparatus and show the level of hardness has decreased to 0-1 grain(s) per gallon give us a shout.

Till then, your posts for Easywater should be on eBay where they belong... or perhaps Ripley's Believe It or Not would be more appropriate.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Faraday's Law...look it up


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

You ignored my point as you often choose to do... when you can run hard water through an Easywater apparatus and show the level of hardness has decreased to 0-1 grain(s) per gallon give us a shout.

Softening water... LOOK IT UP


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Your a moron. When you are capable of communicating at an adult level let me know. Until then, good luck with your whole salt softener thing.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

michigan4204,

I don't need luck with my "whole salt softener thing" because chemistry and physics are on my side.

In the absence of actual data and facts to support your position you revert to name calling... now that's 21st century marketing at it's best and the way to convince potential customers that your arguments are sound and your product actually works.

Now go sit in the corner... you need a time out.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Okay, let's examine a few statements by michigan4204.

1. "With EasyWater, the hardness minerals, calcium and magnessium, are not removed."
*** This is a true statement

2. "Alot of these so called chemists, which I truly am,"
*** Highly suspect, given this individuals apparent lack of understanding, demonstrated in this post.

3. "Those hardness minerals have a positive charge to them. Remember from high school chemistry that anything with a positive charge is attracted to a negative. In this case the negative charge is your pipes and water heater. Those hardness minerals group together and form what is known as lime scale."
*** Here, you are mixing up ions and minerals and generally making a mess. Calcium and magnesium ions have a positive charge, true, but they are not just sticking to your pipes on their own. In fact, they are dissolved entirely in your water, along with their negatively charged counterparts, typically CO3 ions. When calcium or magnesium combine with CO3 to form calcium or magnesium carbonate (when the water warms up and they combine and crystallize out of solution) the resulting crystals look basically like a spiky ball. While the initial microscopic layer of scale is attracted to the pipe wall by weak magnetism, the formation of subsequent scale layers is because lots of itty-bitty spiky balls hitting each other will stick together. Additionally, crystals form on crystals, thickening the scale layer.

4. "With EasyWater, that positive charge is removed. What then happens is those hardness minerals no longer have the ability to group together and stick to your pipes."
*** Here is where I start to have some real heartburn with this explanation. The Frieje system claims to cause super-saturated hardness ions to combine with other mineral ions and fall out of solution. I would have assumed that meant the formation of calcium or magnesium carbonate. However, the website refers to larger IONS, not larger molecules - HUGE DIFFERENCE.
Additionally, super-saturation of dissolved hardness is not typical as water enters your home - it is stable at this point. As the water is heated up in your water heater, right before it starts to form crystals, you will have a super-saturation situation due to the reverse solubility curve of calcium/magnesium carbonate, but Freije claims to work at the cold inlet to your home and somehow have a lasting effect throughout your water system, ignoring the fact that hardness scale doesn't form in cold systems anyway.
The positive charge of an ion is neutralized by combining with a negatively charged ion to form a neutral molecule - Calcium (positive) combining with carbonate (negative). The Freije system does not claim to do this. It claims to change the DISSOLVED minerals, which are not a problem anyway. It is the crystallizing minerals in you hot water system that are the problem.
So, if I assume they said what they meant to say, they are lying. If I assume they really meant to say molecules and not ions, they are stupid.

5. "Dont believe everything you read on the internet"
*** Irony at its finest.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

This will be my last post on this site. Do not ask about EasyWater on these kinds of sites because the only responses you will get are from people who have no actual experience with EasyWater. If you would like true facts, call Rinnai, the largest manufacturer of tankless and gas water heaters in the world and ask them which technology, or company they recommend to protect their water heaters. They will tell you hands down, EasyWater simply is the best. Another option is to call a plumber who has installed an Easywater. Notice, no one on these web sites owns, or knows someone that owns an EasyWater. If they did, they would have a completely different opinion. California has already passed a law which bans salt softeners and other states are soon to follow suit. My guess is within the next 5 years, Alice, Jake, and even J Stalker will have an EasyWater in their home and will be looking for me, to apologize for their ignorance. Until then, find a new hobby other than sitting in chat rooms, bashing people for taking away your business. Good bye and good luck.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Michigan 4204,

Look, there are some very smart people on this forum. If there is a new plumbing product or method on the market, it will get vetted here.

We don't all agree on everything and people have their biases and areas of interest. That said, a logical, educated and rational response is what will win people over, not BS, not FUD and certainly not personal attacks.

You dished out a lot of BS - Big Time. And when people called you on it, you resorted to personal attacks. You actually did more harm than good to your marketing efforts because you failed to provide any explanation or unbiased documentation for how these things allegedly work.

In the post-industrial age it's a market place of ideas - if you want to participate you need to have some and know how to present them.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I do apologize if my comments offended anyone, that was not my goal. I just get tired of people bashing this technology, saying it is impossible to work, when it really does work. Yes, Alice's credentials are a lot more impressive than mine, and honestly, he seems to know a little more than I do. I do have a chemistry degree, but that is not my profession. I agree, it is impossible to seoften water if the hardness minerals are not either chemically or physically removed. The only point I was trying to make is my EasyWater does exactly what they said it would. I also know of about ten other people who are very happy with their systems. Once again, I am not trying to be rude, but don't say something won't work until you have tried it out and seen for yourself the results. I have seen on a few different sites, not this one, where people have simply lied about Freije. Alice, you are a very knowledable person, and everything you have said on here is true, but do you know anyone that has an EasyWater? As far as my marketing efforts, I simply came on here as a person who owns a system and I am very happy with the results. In my opinion, EasyWater in nothing close to a scam, and everything they claim to do, they do. Best of luck to all, and once again I apologize for any feelings I may have hurt. God Bless


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Alice, your initial comment to Indygal stated, "Softening is a chemical process. Period."

EasyWater does not soften water.

No one would ever argue with you on this. That is because you're right. Only salt softners soften the water. This was not Indygals question though. She asked if EasyWater would work for her. The answer to this question depends on what she is trying to accomplish with her traditional salt softener. If she would like to protect her plumbing and appliances from hard water build-up, then yes, it will work. If she is trying to remove existing hard water build-up from her plumbing and appliances, then yes, it will work for her. If she would prefer to get a better lather with her soaps then regular hard water lathering, then yes, it will work for her. If she would prefer to get a better feel with her water than what regular hard water feels like, then yes, it will work for her.

If she likes the slick slippery feel that you get with a traditional salt softener then, no, EasyWater would not work for her.

Salt Softeners are not a bad thing, and they are a good option in some situations, but lets be honest here. This EasyWater technology has been around for awhile now and it's been proven to work for thousands of happy customers. There are hundreds of plumbing contractors all over the United States and Canada that recommend EasyWater because the results are there.

The company offers a 90-day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not convinced within 90 days, return the system for a full refund. They don't even charge to ship it to you. If you return the system, the company will even pay the return shipping. How can you argue with that?

I didn't believe it either at first but I talked to a rep there and they referred me to a well-known plumbing contractor in my town. This plumbing company has been in business for over 100 years. They install EasyWater systems regularly and the results are dramatic. They put my EasyWater in and it does everything they advertise. That's all that matters to me. How do they do it? I couldn't care less. I don't know how a TV works either but when I turn it on I see results.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

c1fman - I could almost believe you weren't a shill for Frieje, if you hadn't joined just to post this "real-life" story about your EasyWater. If you stick around and become a contributing member here, I will be first in line to apologize - I won't be holding my breath.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I am looking to get something to stop and remove the lime deposits in my medium sized residence, and am trying to discern the truth about the easywater or scalewatcher products. I appreciate the thought-exercises being done here, and would like to comment and get more feedback.

First, the research from the Univ. Portsmouth seems legitamite. According to the links posted by aquagenesis, a (perhaps "the") US distributor of scalewatcher -http://www.aquagenesisusa.com/IndepResearchSW.html - Vincent Hogan did some basic tests. He is indeed a lecturer at Univ. Portsmouth (http://www.port.ac.uk/departments/academic/mde/staff/title,3888,en.html).

Second, scalewatcher claims the electric field causes the ions to crystalize within the activated area (where the coils are attached) and that such crystals will not attach to pipes. The additional claim is that the now ion-free water will better dissolve existing crystal build-up. This seems plausible, but if what alice says is true, how can these crystals not be the "spiky" kind that just stick anyway? Is it the crystalization caused by the electic field variance vs. the standard heat-acceleration from water heaters? I also wonder what happens if the water sits anywhere in the system for enough time (say overnight) if the scalewatcher induced crystals disolve again, reintroducing the problem (especially if you have a big water heater) - so is the benefit "temporary" or "time sensitive"?

Third, there seems to be a real lack of reviews/commentary/research even though these products have been available since 1991. If they don't work, that could be proven just as easily, yet no such research exists. Why?

Fourth, none of the companies selling these products (with the exception of Vitasalus - http://www.equinox-products.com/HardnessMaster.htm - which is selling stuff from equinox international which was successfully prosecuted by the feds for illegal business practices) seems to be fraudulent or have bad customer service. As a matter of fact scalewatcher has been selling for some time and seems to be favored by the BBB (although a 3 month accreditation is very short, even if no complaints have been filed).

I even found a review where scalewatcher apparently did refund at leat 75% of the product price (the 1 year quarantee does levy certain conditions for installation, upgrade, and length of usage), even though they apparently felt that the leak was not "their fault" (http://www.legalspring.com/Articles/uk-legal/20040519/900092_Scalewatcher-didnt-w.html). Seems upstanding enough as the customer in this case was probably too hot-headed to really work with them.

What gives me the most pause (oddly enough, although I would think the lack of any real evidence after 15 years of operation should) is the apparent professionalism of the company - a shoddy website spouting religious phrases is not a sign of success in my mind. I did find a claim that in UK 15000 units are shipped monthly (one of scalewatcher's own press releases) which is pretty significant. Couldn't they afford a decent UX designer? I happen to be in an eCommerce software company, and this seems unconcienable to me.

Still, I almost feel like for $500 I wouldn't mind being a test case.


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More vendor explanation

More from another vendor website...

"The Electronic water softener unit is composed of a signal cable that is wrapped several times around the pipe and an electronic unit that sends out a complex, dynamic current to produce extremely small, time-varying oscillating fields inside the pipe. The current that produces a oscillating field is known as Ampere's Law.

Electronic water softeners signal produces a unique square wave current that sweeps all the frequency responses from 1,000 - 12,000 Hz at a rate of 20 times a second. When the strength of the oscillating field varies with time and changes direction, an induced current is produced inside the pipe, a phenomenon known as Faraday's Law of Induction.

As the induced electric field oscillates, all particles which have an electrical charge are affected by the induced field. This causes the unstable mineral ions to precipitate or collide with each other to the point where the calcium carbonate crystals grow until they become so large that there are no more surface charges left to stick to the pipe walls. These calcium molecules precipitate into an aragonite form and flow through the system. As a byproduct of this "snowball" effect, freed water molecules become available to remove existing scale, molecule by molecule."

If this is accurate, can 2 inches of wrapped pipe really keep flowing water in an electric field long enough to create "aragonite" crystals? Hmmm.

Here is a link that might be useful: other vendor


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

mbdf,

The second post explaining how this works is total BS. Really.
It's like a Talking Head's song, where the phrases almost make sense, but not really.

It's this sort of nonsense that seals it for me.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

After reading the "research" linked above, I notice a couple of interesting things:

1) The test setup is poor, very poor. Water at 80 C (176 F)is pumped through the heating coils to heat the test water to 60 C (140 F). This is not the way a water heater works. Immersed coils are heated directly, either electric or gas. The surface temperature of those coils would be much higher, causing more scale and harder scale.

2) The coils pictured have the appearance of mechanical cleaning.

3) No analysis of the water - neither the water IN the coils nor the water being heated. This is important as scale inside the coils will drastically affect the test.

4) A depth micrometer was used to test scale thickness - not the accepted method for determining pipe scaling because it requires that scale be removed mechanically to allow the spindle to touch bare metal. This mechanical removal introduces considerable error by either failing to reach bare metal or by removing some of the metal.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

The case for magnetic or electronic water treatment has been made, the difference between the terminologies being presented by various manufacturers from the salt water "softener" industry seems to be the greatest hurdle in clearing consumer confusion. The boon of any one electonic water conditioner system is going to be in it's ability to transfer signal through your system. For this reason anyone looking in to "no salt water softeners" should really make sure they are getting the strongest signal for their dollar. You can measure the signal these units put off in the water, but some will not make it to your faucet, because they are not "powerful" enough. I am not a scientist, but I have been researching the technology and have come to the conclusion that when applied correctly that the technology works. As for manufacturers of the electronic water conditioners, I have some seen outrageous claims and most device's either will not work or work barely, a good guarantee is paramount, you will lose signal at all conduction loss points in your plumbing system, the pipes may need insulating or possibly you have high iron levels and need an iron filter too... There are alot of ways to make electronic water conditioning work for you, it's all in the apllication. And salt water softeners are literally destroying the environment. I have seen it first hand, most US sewage plants were never equipped to handle salinities found in areas with alot of softeners, I have read biofouling reports on my local rivers and estuaries that claim the softeners are the main point of source for the toxic brine that leaks our sewage plants. So isn't time to make a different water maintenance technology work for you, salt ion exchange is so wasteful people. Thanks for reading.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

water_man,

"I am not a scientist" - Sorry, but that is abundantly clear from your entire post. You have misused so many terms and concepts and made so many logical errors that I lost count.

Look, I have had it with the mumbo-jumbo, the pseudo science and the emotional environmental appeals.

I want some real science, an actual explanation, and some empirical testing by real scientists. No more BS. If this is real and works, there should be abundant research and independent testing available - not only for the technology as a whole, but for a given device. Let me know when that happens.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

The real science is there to be had.
No real scientist disputes the action of the radio waves on the hardness minerals, I have spoken with a water chemist on this, and although he is a proponent of ion exchange, his explanation ended in the words, "it leave's the water saturated with carbonate" which is a problem to be solved... but not a technology dispelling fact.

Also note that softening water and rendering hardness ineffective are two different things!

There is much dispute to effectiveness of certain devices, but the technology is real.

The problem is that it is not simple to apply the technology, water quality standards bodies have been "geared" towards ion exchange systems as they were the most effective in the past.
But we are more energy conscious these days, and hollistic, salt water softeners are wasteful but effective, we don't want wasteful but we want effective.

As for evidence, you can find it if you look, and a dilligent consumer will find it apparent, that this is one of those technologies that has not fully matured yet and is difficult to implement in a "general" way..

smallwonder.info/research.html some college evidence..
Also british gas did a study on hydropath technology.
Onspex did a report on hydropath technology.
The german government actually has a standard DVGW Standard W 512

The Oil companies have been using this technology on their oil platforms for years.
The technology is in manufacturing plants and industrial facilities across the globe, yet we still haven't seen strong adoption in the residential markets...

WHY?

It's not the "general" easy solution that modern consumers look for, but when you take a closer look at the product offering in the residential water treatment arena, it's quite clear that all water treatment device's suffer configuration woe's. And there just seems to be less solutions to these woe's in the electronic water conditiong market, mainly in my humble opinion, because it is hard for the electronic water conditioner market to combine their products with traditional device's while still maintaining the validity of the general marketing scheme, that this is the "only" device you need..

Freije doe's a good job of applying industrial solutions, it will be interesting to see how their easywater unit doe's.

It's sad that the water treatment industry, seems to be the greatest impediment to finding better ways to manage our resources, and to continue field research on the systems. There is pleny of commercial field evidence. And although the device's don't always perform to efficiency, they perform...

Not a question.

And jake2007, thanks for the apology.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Rendering hardness minerals "ineffective" in that, the calcium and magnesium are still there for your benefit, but are not effective at scaling your pipes.. Hope that clarifies my meaning above.

Thanks.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I found this site while attempting to evaluate the EasyWater system. Overall, I am highly skeptical of the efficacy of any electronic water conditioning system. The only possibility I can imagine is that the electromagnetic field precipitates the scale minerals (e.g. CaC03 and the like) into colloidal particles that continue to float in the flowing water but do not as readily deposit on the pipe walls. This could easily be confirmed in lab tests. Short-term tests could measure colloidal particles produced while long-term tests could quantify the beneficial impact on scale formation. This is my first day researching the technology, so I haven't discovered any results. Is there anything else out there besides the [discredited] U. Portsmouth report?

By the way, how does the electric field penetrate copper pipes? I thought that it stayed on the surface of conducting metals. I'm a little rusty (no pun intended) on my electrodynamics.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I joined GardenWeb today 3-5-2010, because of this interesting thread regarding electronic of radiofrequency or magnetic water conditioning. What happened, did everyone get tired of the subject last August?

Regarding gardening--the intended focus of this page! It and cooking are my two favorite pastimes. Botany classes were my favorites in my first college career: water treatment, motion & time-study in my second college career (slow learner!).

Thanks


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

pugparents - Welcome to the fray. We are an opinionated group here, but generally try to be as helpful as we can.

As I recall, there were other posts to this thread. Perhaps they were lost during a server problem. At any rate, this has been the thread that won't die. Generally, a shill for one of the various magnetic or electronic devices will join GardenWeb just long enough to post a glowing review at the end of the thread and then disappear. Frieje is running a national radio and television ad campaign now so I expect we will see more inquiry here.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Alice wrote: "Frieje is running a national radio and television ad campaign now so I expect we will see more inquiry here."

That contributed to my interest in the subject. Another equally annoying recent ad campaign is GoldLine. What other investment would you purchase at a 75-year high? But I digressed!

The most interesting sentence in the long EasyWater thread is the sentence from BR549 in Michigan that says, "With EasyWater, that positive charge is removed." How does that work? The worst two weeks of my life were the first two weeks of Organic Chemistry--until I dropped it! But the Chemistry AND Electrical Engineering I had to take as required electives--mostly to improve the chances of passing the EIT exam--never discussed a device that could "remove" the charge from ions. That my "older" friends, may be what we are missing! Since we were in school in the dark ages, a charge changer has been invented. I am certain that a cash changer has been invented--it changes cash from your pocket to thier pocket.

Kindest regards,

Proud PugParent, PE, PMP


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

" I am certain that a cash changer has been invented--it changes cash from your pocket to their pocket".

The Law of Conservation of Money... money cannot be created or destroyed, only transmitted.

A little light reading... http://www.nmsr.org/magnetic.htm


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I knew a Jake, the wonder dog, once. He was a Springer, once got between a cow elk and her calf--it was a wonder he survived!


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

funny, read this page after hearing a radio personality give such high regard to easywater systems.(seeing how old this thread is, and it was revived)

And Alice, its good to get information from actual engineers on things like this, in a world ran by sales and marketing.

I have been looking at water softeners for a little while. And some websites show comparisons and the electric ones, and show them as good things, and more desirable than the salt ones.

But what if you are not looking for softwater, just it's effects? Build up in shower heads, water heaters, pipes, etc.

Also, Alice, if I understand what you have written correctly, isn't it only beneficial to put a water softener on the cold water going into the hot water heater?

One would use a lot less salt, wont need a private run for drinking water, a smaller unit could be used.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

cjn:

Does your house already have a place for a water softener "roughed in" or will this be a retro-fit?

I ask because if there is already a place for a water softener, which looks like a single copper pipe coming out of a wall, typically in the garage or mechanical room, that goes through two elbows and back into the wall. This system will only soften the water doing to the hot water tank and the fixtures in the bathroom, but WILL NOT soften the cold water in the kitchen, icemaker, or outside faucets, if the house was plumbed like 99% of all homes in the US. So, when the commercials tell you how much better the water tastes--they must have been drinking out of the bathrooms (I could have said toilets, but that would be crude!)!

If it is a retrofit, you have control of where it goes. I would also recommend a whole-house water filter--20 micron spiral wound polypropylene is sufficient. I would also steer away from the bulky blue filter housings, they have a history (which could have been solved by now) of splitting along the joint where the two halves are bonded together. Clear polycarbonate, that is a single molded piece or the much more expensive stainless steel housing on a brass head are better. The advantage of clear is that you can see when it needs to be changed.

Ops, technically you addressed your questions to AIWL, but I can never resist offering my opinion, it is worth every penny you paid for it.

Later,

PPP, PE, PMP


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I don't know much about the science of the two kinds of systems, but I would be very interested to hear any responses from someone that has used both systems simultaneously, Can you use both at the same time? I currently have a salt system, but have been interested in adding the easywater system to my home, because the previos owners did not have a water softener system and I fear there is alot of buildup still in the pipes. Can I get the best of both worlds and have the easywater system remove the existing scale and reduce future build up while having the salt system do what it does best?


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

You get the best of both worlds (as you put it) with an ion exchange water softener. That is what it is designed to do,,, REMOVE hardness. Water conditioners DO NOT REMOVE HARDNESS.

If the ion exchange softener that is currently installed is properly sized and setup for the water conditions and water usage it will, over time, remove scale deposits from pipes, appliances, and fixtures.

It will not repair any damage or degradation to the plumbing, fixtures, and appliances that hard water has caused in the past.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Consider another another response: "GOOD GOD MAN! have you learned nothing from this forum?!!" There is no "best of both worlds." There is the best of the chemistry world and the best of the pseodo-science world. Strapping electical wires on the outside of pipes and wrapping the wires round and round does NOTHING to change the charge of the ions in the water that want to stick to the surfaces in you home. There are two ways to interact with the electrons that give ions their charge. The first involves chemistry (not my favorite, but it works), and the second (my favorite!) is ionizing radiation--this I know something about! Being a degreed Nuclear Engineer...AND this is NOT something you want to install in you home!

But to answer your question directly, we have not tried the experiment you describe, although the folks in New Mexico came close. See the post with a link, several ago.

Regards,

P.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Thanks for the response pugparents, I addresses it to the one who seamed most vocal on this thread (and knowledgeable)

The most practical place for a watersoftner is in the furnace room in the basement.

I have a reverse osmisis water filter IO have yet to install,
#1 Only install to fridge ice/water despencer(don;t have that fridge yet)
#2, I like having calcium and some of those other things in the drinking water, what I don't want is the fluoride or chemicals/hormones/etc.

I actually don't like showing in softwater, best friend had it, and I never got use to it, he even preferred hard water. Just want to extend the lives of the appliances, and supposedly save money.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Please help

I found this thread today while researching Easy Water and would like to ask a few questions to the people who clearly understand this subject scientifically. First, after reading this I recognize that this product and products like it are a farce and most of the people strongly promoting it here are doing it for financial gain. With that said I have issues with my water that after reading this lead me to believe there are multiple problems. I moved to this local area about six years ago and having come from an area without serious water concerns I did not notice the problem signs until recently. The home is about seventeen years old and since Ive lived here it has had scale on the outlets of the fixtures and on some of the valves, I have replacing toilet flappers every couple of years and the ice maker on my refrigerator is not operating properly. I have always had poor water pressure especially from the garden hose. Last year I had to replace the water heater and while that was being replaced the professional who did the work noticed that my incoming copper cold water line was black in color from the point where it entered the basement all the way into the water heater. The outgoing hot water line from the water heater is still copper in color. When he cut the cold water line the inside was caked with black gunk that restricted the line significantly. Also within the last year our municipality started sending a quarterly letter stating that the water has not passed the appropriate safety tests but there was nothing to be concerned about with regard to drinking it. I dont have the letter which did not say much but I am calling them for more information today. Because of that we started renting a water cooler from Crystal Springs and getting water delivered to the house. Id like to get the water tested if someone knows were but based on this thread it seems like I have hard water plus something making the cold water line black as well as the drinking issue. Can someone elaborate on what could cause the line to turn black and where I can get an independent test?


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

hockeyguy,

First thing... start a new thread so your questions get the attention and the reads it deserves instead of hijacking this thread that won't die.

In order to intelligently discuss water treatment problems you need to include the results of a comprehensive water test or at least what your municipality is required by the EPA to test for and report.

Without that info there is nothing anyone can do to help.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

cjn:

I repeat myself--occasionally on purpose!

(point of order: Alice has a great deal of ownership with respect to this thread, but the Lurker has made it pretty clear lately that they are "large and in charge." (A veiled reference to the Project Management Institute's training materials--do I get credit!) So, I offer my humble advice as a licensed Professional Engineer, only.

1. Does your residence have a place for a water softener already "roughed in"?

Answer the question, collect the prize.

P.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I have read this thread with great interest and even a few chuckles. I am neither an engineer, nor a chemist, just a retired guy trying to get some info about EasyWater.


My wife saw the ads and wanted to know if we should invest in this alternative to eliminate some of our hard water issues - soooo - I (being the computer geek) got the assignment to find out EVERYTHING there is to know about "salt" versus "electrical" water treatments.

Thank you for all your inputs - I can now safely go back to my wife and tell her that it depends upon who you talk to - the company line is that EasyWater is great, will solve all your problems, heck it might even be the next best thing to butter - or if you talk to the scientists in the group, they will tell you it doesn't seem likely, and it would sure be useful to see some REAL studies, made by an independent (non biased) research group.

I personally think I'm leaning towards the scientific analysis (I hope being a mathematician kinda counts as a scientist???)

JEF - If it isn't broke, you're not trying. (borrowed from Red Green)


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Greetings All!
Is there someone out there in this forum, who has the actual EasyWater equipment, that could write down the patent numbers on the equipment and send them to me? I would greatly appreciate it. (I'll even take the patent numbers from the Aqua Genesis equipment). Thanks!
Paul


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Several years ago I bought a water softening system, Innotech, that uses potassium crystals instead of salt. It was a very expensive system and I became very disappointed very quickly. Most of that was operational. I'm not a techhead at all and all the regenerating and restarting and recycling ect., well, I quit dumping the $20-$40 worth of potassium in every month and just let the scale build. So, that is why I was taking a look at the EasyWater system. But, knowing nothing comes 'easy' in my world, I have read this entire thread and still don't know what to do. Curious though, that no one has mentioned the use of potassium rather than salt. Anyone have knowledge of it's use?


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

infocus,

Any ion exchange water softener can use either sodium chloride (NaCl) or potassium chloride (KCL) as a regenerant.

Depending on the water conditions there may be adjustments necessary to the softener programming (if electronic) or softener settings (if not electronic)

Check this link for more info on potassium in water softeners... http://www.softeningsalt.com/page8.html


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

WOW...I never thought a thread on water softeners could be so entertaining AND educational. And since I enjoy being educated, I also would like to see independent, verifiable proof that the new water "conditioners" work. They may have a "money back guarantee" but that doesn't mean much these days. I have bought a few things under that claim..and it took a lot of work to get my money back.

I recently bought a 23 year old house that never had any softening at all. So I am experiencing scale build up, dishwasher not cleaning dishes, low water pressure, and decreasing hot water due to build up in the tank.

I too am leaning towards the traditional softener, but, how do you get your pressure back? IS there any way to get rid of the build up in pipes? (please don't say replace all the pipes....)

Thanks to all!


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

technogeek,

If you start a new thread with your question instead of hanging on an old and dead thread I'll be happy to answer your questions.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Dead, you mean like the last seven messages posted?
That's ok, if your any indication of what "help" I will get, I'll find help somewhere else.

Thanks.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Better late than never.
I was using a salt water softener and decided to try one of the "alternative" systems. After several months of yes-no-yes etc. I chose the "Water Imp" from a company in the U.K. for about $150. Skeptical at best was my thought.
Prior to the install I was draining and cleaning 3" to 4" of scale from my hot water tank yearly to avoid burning out elements.
2005 I moved into this house and had never experienced hard water. 2008 I installed the "electric" unit. I did not descale the hot water tank. I figured I would check their claim of the descaling action of their unit. 2009 after 1 year of of the units operation I drained the hot water tank. Absolutely clean. No scale. I was surprised to say the least.
Now for the summation. I don't know if the salt softener caused the scaling and disconnecting it eliminated the scaling or what. All I know is I have good water flow and I am not having to clean out the water heater on a yearly basis. I don't represent the company. Check out their ads at www.waterimp.co.uk/. Just my experiences. Dave


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Simple way to tell if it's a scam or not. Is the company a member of the Water Quality Association(WQA)? If not , don't trust it.


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All salt-free water conditioners

Where I live in western WA state their is lots of lime/calcium in the water (NO rust or other hard minerals). Since I have lots of granite countertops CLR is an absolute no no.

There seem to be at least 3 other companies in addition to EasyWater out there. All seem to sell only direct.

Has anyone out there had good results removing/preventing lime/calcium deposits with any of these 'electric' no salt products.

Thanking all in advance


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Anyone have any experience it thoughts on no salt, non-electronic water treatment GreenWave Cascade Salt Free Water Treatment as an alternative to traditional water softener and/or Easy Water? We replaced a traditional water softener with a newer model that promptly does nothing to soften our water, but eats salt like it is doing its job. Any input is appreciated.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

scobabs,

If you have an ion exchange water softener that is not softening your water then it is either installed wrong, setup wrong, undersized, out of salt, or not operating properly.

Post the results of a recent water test, # of people in the home, # of bathrooms, exactly the brand and model softener your "newer model" softener is, and are you on a well or a water system?


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Would appreciate some of the "expert" advice on this scenario.
I currently have a salt-based softener and RO under the sink for drinking/cooking water. We live in a vey hard water area and I'm now on my second water heater in 6 years. The most recent was replaced some 9 months ago as we had a leak from a corroded joint and flooded the garage! I then had it replaced and signed a 1-yr maintenance contract. Just had the annual drain and mx check and here's what the plumber said. The anode rod was badly pitted after only 9 mnths and there was a lot of sediment. He strongly recommended we get rid of the salt conditioner and instead, replace it with a 2-stage filtration system plus some other stuff around the house (pressure regulator and some cartridge replacements).
Because of high blood pressure and other issues, I do not wish to use salt. You don't need to be an MD or scientist to know that salt, or too much of it, is bad for the human body. If so, it cannot be that great for your piping or water heater either!
Initially, I was leaning toward the electo-magnetic devices on a cost comparison basis and ease of intsall/mx etc. However, even before coming here, I was not entirely convinced and am more sceptical now.
However, I looked further and came across another method which is salt-free and sounds very similar to what my plumber told me. It's the NaturSoft Pelican whole-house filtration and softener combo. Read all the testimonials and certifications on the website and it certainly seems to meet my health and other requirements. The media used is a special carbon filter (and the only thing that requires periodic replacement). Clearly, more expensive than Easywater but slightly less expensive than my plumber's quote.
Any honest opinions about THIS system would be much appreciated.
Many thanks in advance.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Long post and all this tale of woe...all anecdotal....and you apparently still have not had your water analyzed? What would/could any "expert" do with that?

You're either going to have to educate yourself or hire a professional to tell you what you're dealing with. From your post, clearly you should hire someone. I suggest hiring a qualified independent professional (NOT a salesperson who sells equipment!) to test your water and tell you what you're dealing with. Unless/until you do that, there's little sense in considering anything in particular. And without that information neither you nor anyone else will be able to suggest what you need to solve the problem.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I don't need to analyse my water - it's a known fact that Las Vegas has VERY hard water - avg 18 gpg and you can easily see the results. Other than that, it meets all local, state and federal guidelines. I got a full report from the local water authority and I know the source of the water - Lake Mead via the Colorado River and two city treatment plants. Interestingly enough, the water authority says it's NOT necessary to have ANY water treatment for health reasons and that it's an aesthetic thing. However, that does not solve the various hard water problems discussed above nor the sodium content in the treated water.

I was merely trying to get a comparative view on water treatments and I thought I would further educate myself here! Clearly, this is not the school house and by the way, I did hire a professional, the plumber I was talking about and he made a number of recommendations. He was here for two hours and not just to drain the water heater! However, like I said, I don't believe everything I'm told, I evaluate in detail what they tell me and then ask around as well as read reports, blogs etc....


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

OK, then, do it your way. Sounds like you and the plumber have it all figured out.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Municipal water departments are not concerned with any aspect of the water they supply other than EPA mandated health and wellness guidelines. Hardness is considered an aesthetic problem but homeowners discover after $$$ repairs to pipes, appliances and fixtures that it is an economic problem and many don't like to skim the mung off their coffee.

That said, at 18 grains of hardness per gallon you have hard water. Not as hard as mine @ 30 gpg and there are many who's water makes 30 gpg look uber soft.

If you want to cure the hardness diseasein a residential environment then an ion exchange softener using either NaCl (salt) or KCl (potassium chloride salt substitute) as a regenerant is the most cost effective and low maintenance way.

Using KCl as a regenerant substitutes potassium ions for hardness ions so there is no additional sodium added to the service water. You can do a little Googling and discover that the amount of sodium added to soft water is MINUTE... we're talking IONS here not pounds.

If you will be satisfied merely treating the hardness symptoms I encourage you to experiment with any of the no salt, electronic, or magnetic water conditioners and let us know if you are satisfied.

I'm particularly looking forward to the first person to report that the media in their no salt conditioner has depleted and needs to be replaced and the cost for that... I know the cost and they're gonna blow a gasket when they get there.

I'll stick with the proven chemistry and physics and field history of ion exchange softeners. A properly sized, setup, and maintained softener will give decades of reliable, low cost soft water and dramatically prolong the service life of WHers, appliances, fixtures, and plumbing.

Lastly, if you have a plumber who actually knows anything about water treatment you are really fortunate as most only know enough to hook them up.

Find yourself a local WQA certified water treatment professional and grill them for detailed answers.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Thanks for the advice.

As mentioned before, I have been doing my own research and looking for the best way (most economical, environmentally-friendly, relatively mx-free)way of conditioning our water for it's hardness and without using salt. I am well aware of the methods out there, their costs and the fact that folks have their "favorites".

Normally, when I am about to spend a large sum of money, I do a lot of research and even though I may have my own ideas, I do want to hear what other folks have to say - it helps me make an informed decision.

Yes, my plumber is not just an installer; that's why I hired him! Keep in mind, I spent 2 HOURS+ with him the other week going around the plumbing fixtures in my home to check them out! And that was after taking a look at the "new" water heater. Not many are as meticulous as that. Not only that, but I asked him specifically what kind of water treatment he used in his own home. He was definitely not a sales person per se.

And finally, since I don't intend going with the filtration system until the fall, I bought two bags of potassium chloride (99% salt-free it says)to use in the interim months. And yes, it is much more expensive (than sodium but probably worth it).

I will most likely go with a 2-stage, carbon filtration system, one that softens the water and another stage that takes some of the harmful minerals (but does not take everything out). Either the Natursoft Pelican series of whole house filters or the Spectrum (ewswater.com)or similar.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Having read this entire thread, I must admit, I have learnt a thing or two as well as being amused!

As mentioned previously, my water-softener currently uses sodium chloride as the medium and I have now purchased two bags of potassium chloride to use instead.

My question now (and not being a chemist nor engineer!) is this: there is a small amount of salt pellets remaining in the cylinder. Should I remove what remains, clean it out and then put in the potassium or just dump the bags regardless? My possible concern is that the sodium may react with the potassium and get me into trouble - or not!

I'm also assuming that since it is a different medium, I will likely have to re-set the re-generation timer etc.

So, that should be an easy question for all the experts out there.

Thanks for yr advice, I enjoyed reading and learning about stuff I don't normally deal with.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

You can simply add the KCl as the NaCl runs low. There will ne no chemical reaction.

Here's some reading you'll find informative... http://www.watertechonline.com/article.asp?IndexID=5180905


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

justalurker,
Thanks for yr advice. I thought as much but wasn't 100% sure. Now I know and will proceed.
Thanks also for the link - interesting and informative link re KCl vs. NaCl!


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Purchased the Easy Water, heavier duty model for homes and will be hooking it up this weekend. I find it odd that I couldnt find a posting from anyone that had the unit and was unhappy with it, so with a 120 day money back guarantee, why not find out the truth I figured. Im going to take pictures of my clogged shower heads each week to see if any progress will be made. I spoke to both the Scalewatcher and Easy Water folks and went with the Easy Water 2200 because they supply higher voltage to the pipe. Im 85% leaning towards this unit will not do a thing to remove the heavy scaling that has built up in my home for the past 38 years. Ill report back to let all of you know the outcome.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Since you've made your decision, I encourage you to start a new thread and tell us about your experience after installation. This argument has been going on forever. Gotta believe there will be many interested. At least I will be.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Hey, since this is the thread that won't die... what you say we just bump the responses up to 100.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I would like to add my 2 cents. I use Hardness Master from equinox (vitasalus) for 5 year now here in Jacksonville, FL.
It works the same way as Easy Water and price is @200 depending of hardness of your water. It will actually remove white spots from your metal sink and heavy particles will go to the pipe as they claim. It is all true, but because it is not actually a softener your water will stay hard in your teapot and whatever you boil. But is actually solved my problem to have nasty white spots in the kitchen sink all the time. So,from my experience it is worth it to spend @ 200 bucks (but not more) and have those hard things go to the pipes and not stick to my pipes and sinks.
This is from my 5 years of experience. First I found magnetic devices, but due to their size I've found smaller electric ones with the same effect.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I am buying a house in NC with well water that is very hard and contains iron as well. It also has a septic system. What happens to all the salt that is flushed into the septic? Does it affect the microorganisms that the septic system depends on?


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

doctormarley,

Your question will get more attention and more answers when you start a new thread instead of hanging on to a thread on a different subject.

Before you post, GOOGLE softener salt and septic... there are 39,600 results for you to read.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

100 is a nice, round number, don't you think?


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Hi Alice,

Welcome back my friends to the thread that never ends...


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Update: Im on day 11 with the Easy Water 2200 system. Installation was easy, although a bit monotonous double wrapping 18" of copper piping tightly with thin wire, ensuring not to have any spaces between the wires. I followed the instructions to the letter and had my father-in-law help out who is both an electrician and a plumber, so I have no doubt that it is installed correctly, even the indicator light on the unit states that it is descaling. So far, I have not noticed any changes to the clogged showerhead. The soap is not lathering up any better when washing my hands, and there isnt any type of softer feeling to the water. In addition, there is still scale on my electric tea pot element (the pot is all glass, so I can view it easily). In all fairness, the literature does state that your water will get worse before it gets any better because of the released scale from the pipes flowing with the water. I also performed a blow down on the hot water heater. They told me that after two weeks, I should blow down the hot water heater and I would see chunks of scale coming out, but so far I have seen no debris. Ill report back in another week with a progress report.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Well since the indicator light on the unit states that it is descaling then it must be... unless they just wire the light to go on when the unit is plugged in.

We're pulling for you...


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Note how the "experts" continue moving the goal posts. They demanded independent research, so when it was presented, it doesn't meet their standard for "university quality". That's how the game is played.

Sorry, that doesn't cut it. Nothing you've said scientifically refutes the technology. Either perform your own "independent" study or cite those that support your POV.

Keep in mind it took 13 years for the "experts" to acknowledge stomach ulcers were caused by bacteria even though it was proven decades previous.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Java44....thanks for feedback. I will be more interested in your opinion after 30-45 days. I'm a skeptic. But I would certainly like to hear from someone like you who's taken the plunge personally. Even conventional softeners installed in existing hard-water locations don't show full-effect until some time has gone by and much "new" water has run through the old pipes.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Slimething... Did I miss the "Independent Research"? Dude, look, no moving goal posts...

The responsibility to prove it works is on the manufacturers, it's not our job to prove it doesn't work.
There should be an adequate scientific explanation of how these things work as well as independent, repeatable testing that confirms that it's doing what it says.

The moving goal post is with these snake oil salesmen... they claim it's a water softer... no a water conditioner... no a descaler... umm, it doesn't remove the hardness but it keeps it in suspension... okay, it drains your bank account.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

A good telltale if something works over periods of time is to ask if LOCAL dealers sell, install and service them. If the answer is NO and all you can do is get these great pieces of technology over the internet from some faceless, voiceless entity, then I would be very careful. There is a reason why these are almost exclusively sold on line.

If they worked, I would be selling them, even as an option. But since I don't want people coming into my office and slamming their fists on the counter demanding refunds---I stay away from these and other miracle solutions.

Moreover, I have followed up on these installations and have yet to have anyone (I mean zero) provide a remotely positive evaluation. I used to remove them when we install a real water softener, but I don't even bother anymore. Leave them sit as a testimony to making quick, cheap, ineffective decisions.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

"Welcome back my friends to the thread that never ends..."

The supply of snake oil and pseudo science is replenished regularly by new hucksters and gullible buyers.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Just saw the Easywater commercial and we have a new Rinnai tankless water heater sitting in our yet to be finished new house. I'm very skeptical some coiled wires are anything more than snake oil and pretty convinced of this reading the first half of this thread until I read this:

"michigan4204
If you would like true facts, call Rinnai, the largest manufacturer of tankless and gas water heaters in the world and ask them which technology, or company they recommend to protect their water heaters. They will tell you hands down, EasyWater simply is the best."


So I called Rinnai. They told me they don't recommend Easywater. My immediate thought was BUSTED. But I asked if she had heard of Easywater or Scalewatcher or any other saltless solution to scaling and was expecting a "no" answer, but she said they did test the Easywater for 6 months and found it to be effective.

After hearing from Rinnai, I'm out of the snake oil camp and back in the confused camp. Anyone hear from any others who might have tested any of these products with this technology.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Personally, I'm still interested in feedback from Java44 after his/her more than 60 days experience with new EasyWater 2200 installation in mid-July.

Yo, Java44....got an update for us?


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Waiting...........


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Still waiting.......

Waiting..........


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Asolo,

Waiting for a stealth salesman to tell you how good it works is a waste of your time. You're only gonna be happy if you evaluate one of these things for yourself.

Buy one, yank out one of those Kineticos, and let us know how it goes.

For me ion exchange works too well and with so little maintenace it's embarassing so I'll just stand pat.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

For the person that said that the professional engineers who deal with water quality need to prove that electric softeners work, are sadly mistaken. The plumbing codes throughout the US in the International Residential Code, UPC and independent state codes require that a product be tested by an independent testing laboratory. These laboratories are IATMO, NSF, ASTM and ASSE. There are more, but none of these electronic softeners have provided the required testing. They don't because they don't actually touch the water, therefore they are not required. If however, they, like the standard brine water softener, was cut into the water line, they would have to meet the same standards as all other plumbing products, faucets, pipes and fixtures. As a plumbing engineer with over 40 years in the business, I can say I don't trust anything I can't see verified test reports. If it doesn't have a testing agencies reports, I won't use it.

Personally I would like there to be a product that fundamentally alters the way we treat water, because of water quality standards and the salt content. I encourage these new technologies to have the products tested by one of the agencies accepted by national plumbing codes so that we can really see the science behind the product. Commission one of our fine universities to take up the cause and prove or disprove the claims.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

If there is something new here, where is the patent? A parent requires some proof of concept. There may be one - I didn't see it - and showing clearly a patent or patent application would answer a lot of questions. And if anyone could patent something that works as claimed here, then he or she should be a billionaire in a very short time.

Secondly, the descriptive literature is so poor that I am not certain what is claimed, but if calcium ions are really neutralized, then there would be no electrostatic barrier to their nuclei fusing, and creating the same magnitude blast as a hydrogen bomb. I definitely would not want that in my basement.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

All I want is at least maybe ONE SINGLE even, (therefore anecdotal) testament from some homeowner who actually paid for and installed one of these units and has something good to say about the experience.

Over many years I've heard/read precisely zero....except for the purveyors' shills....whom they will not put you in touch with. I've read re-iterations of mfgr's promises from people who bought but then never hear from them again. All of the people who have shown up on these forums over the years have disappeared with the first challenge.

I would LOVE to acknowledge the veracity of these units. After all these years I'm still waiting for even a shred of non-anecdotal evidence.

I have actual soft water via old-school ion-exchange (kinetico) and I'm happy as a clam. If I could accomplish this easier/cheaper/blah, blah, blah....I would be VERY interested, I've got the bucks....but none of these folks are showing me ANYTHING.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Amazing read. I can't believe I read the whole thing. As an interested person, I went looking for anything scientific that would support or dismiss the "electronic descaler" or water conditioner (i.e. not a mineral exchanger, a.k.a. water softener) technology.
After using some hit and miss terms, my most productive Google search was using:
"Zeta Potential" "calcium carbonate" precipitate
There seems to be a few papers supporting the science. However, there are many variables that will affect the outcome. The key conclusions seem to indicate that a magnetic field (MF) does affect the scaling properties of calcium suspended in water.
One interesting paper:
F. Alimi, M. Tlili, M. Ben Amor, G. Maurin and C. Gabrielli,  
Influence of magnetic field on calcium carbonate precipitation in the presence of foreign ions,
Surface Engineering and Applied Electrochemistry,
Volume 45, Number 1, 56-62,
DOI: 10.3103/S1068375509010104
Another older paper with link:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/la970979a  
Mechanism of the Long-Term Effects of Electromagnetic Radiation on Solutions and Suspended Colloids
Do the devices use the above methods properly? Will it work in your home in the manner described?
The answers will depend on your specific circumstance considering all the variables.
Opinions:
In general, simply attaching any of these devices to your plumbing would produce less than desirable results IF they employ the above methods. No doubt the lack of testing for these devices is directly related to this variability and the application of the real science. YMMV and probably will...wildly. To get them work anywhere near properly you will likely need to have it tuned (i.e., engineered) to your specific environment...like the successful anecdotal results described for commercial water based heating plants with their in-house specialists. This will most likely take some significant time (== $$$). Your garden variety plumber would not likely meet that standard or even the well paid "This Old House" types.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

As a chemist with over 15 years experience and since I spent a lot of time in graduate school working on electrochemistry I have to say that the posts here that talk about how water is softened are incorrect. Yes, they have the minerals correct but how they are converted from ions to the neutral species is nothing more than an electron transfer reaction. So with that in mind, all you need is free electrons not a sodium ion. Don't get me wrong, sodium atoms will work, but then you end up with sodium in your drinking water. Plus all that salt you are putting into your softener, where do you think that ends up? That's right, in your water. I am not supporting easy water or even saying that it works, but there are some posts here with really bad chemistry in them.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

kellyray - Your ignorance about how a water softener unit works (ion exchange) is astounding if we assume you are a chemist with 15 years experience. Salt does not end up in your water with a properly operating softener. Sodium does. A chemist would know the difference.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Chemist... Alchemist... sorta the same huh?

Electrons are FREE?

Damn, I've been paying for mine all these years.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I guess I spoke to fast or the words were to big, but any moron knows that the brine that goes down the drain ends up at the treatment plant, thus in our water. It is this simple, a chemical reaction involves bond making or breaking, ion exchange involves electron transfer. Please try to keep up.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Sorry to break this up but I, personally, am still waiting for Java44 or any other buyer/user to come back and tell us about their experience. Every time they start one of these things they disappear rather than report back.

I am a polluting softener owner. If there's something else that works, I'm interested. However, the flakiness of ALL of these posters does nothing for my confidence in the claims being made.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

"Reading a debate between chemists about how this technology may or may not work seems fairly useless to the average person. I also am skeptical of reviews posted by people who haven't tried the product, but claim it can't work."

The claims of the device not working are based on hard science.

"The manufacturer gives a money back guarantee, so rather than saying it doesn't work based on scientific principle, just buy one and put up a blog about your results, and if you're right and it doesn't work, send it back."

Why should I spend MY time doing free research for a charlatan?

Let the seller provide the testing and analysis that shows the device performs as claimed.
Not anecdotes, not testimonials, but side by side comparisons of the device in operation vs. no device present, with some actual measured results on scale build up in each case.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I installed the Scalewatcher, a much less expensive alternative to the EasyWater system, about 3 weeks ago. I followed the manufacturer's recommendations concerning flushing the water heater and cleaning out the faucet screens. As advertised, the water seemed to get harder and the smell was more metallic for the 1st 10 days. They said it might last a month or more but the smell has subsided, the water seems softer and there are no signs of scaling or staining.

You cannot compare a water softener to a Scalewatcher. They do not do the same thing. A water softener removes calcium and other minerals from the water and flushes them along with salt into your sewer or septic system. Water conditioned with a Scalewatcher will still contain calcium and other minerals in a suspended state. I suspect that testing will show the presence of "hardness" as measured by the presence of calcium and other minerals in the water. The Scalewatcher only claims to reduce the scaling and the ability of these minerals to cause scale as they pass through your pipes and appliances.

However, the fine print will tell you that the minerals will revert back to their former state after 48 hours which means a little maintenance following vacation. Your water heater will contain sediment and your toilets may be stained after sitting for more than 48 hours. This little bit of maintenance versus hefting 40 pond bags of potassium chloride (expensive salt alternative) is well worth the minor inconvenience if it works.

The local sewer authority has banned the discharge of salt from softeners into the sewer system and has threatened to impose a fine of $500 per day if you continue to do so.

Although there are other expensive alternatives, I decided to try the Scalewatcher under their 1 year money back guaranty. So far I am pleased with the results.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Thanks. First user feedback of any kind. Would be interested in your opinion after a couple of months. Also first mention of 48-hour reversion characteristic.

Poking around a bit, I found this site. I'm no chemist, but this guy says he is.

Here is a link that might be useful: One guy's opinion of various water treatment products


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Seems more than "one guy's opinion of various water treatment products"

Well organized... supports his position with facts and links to articles and studies... far more than any voodoo conditioner companies do.

And then there's... http://www.nmsr.org/magnetic.htm

Yea, I know, it's chemistry and physics and all that science stuff again but that science stuff is what makes the sun come up every morning and it has been coming up every morning since way before subjective opinion said the world was FLAT.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Is this a stupid question? I see that hydrocareus is a sponser to this forum and was wanting to know if any research has been done on these units and have been found worthy to be on a conflicting site like this one. I have hard well water and have been looking for a solution. I'm almost to the point of pulling my hair out from all the hype and not enough users to support their products.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I just ran across this thread. I am an Easy Water user for the last two and a half years. My entire house including the outside water taps is running "thru" the Easy Water electrical field. I'm not a chemist or a water expert of any kind, so I could not even begin to understand the scientific papers. So here is my opinion and experience with the Easy Water system.

The Easy Water (2200) system does seem to do what they advertise. But just like any other avertising, they don't explain everything completely. For Example:

1) They never mention using Lemon Shine in your dish washer until after you purchase the unit. My experience shows that even with a new GE Profile dishwasher & using Lemon Shine, the dishes won't come clean unless you pre-wash/rinse them first. Sometimes there is a film on them. We even had the dish washer serviced to make sure it was operating correctly.

2) It does a nice job of keeping the scale build up off the faucets & shower head, as long as you wipe them off with a towel. If you don't dry the faucets, shower head, the shower stall or tub with a towel, then hard water scale will form and you better have CLR or Lime Away around.

3) They say you don't need as much detergent in the washer (and dish washer). My experience shows that I may use a little less, but not enough to make a difference.

4) Don't wash you car or truck with Easy Water, especially on a hot day. If you can't dry it off before it begins dry you will have water spots. In fact, that goes for anything that gets wet. You can't let anything air dry or you will have water spots.

5) I had a small water fountain in the backyard. It had the same water pump for a number of years, until Easy Water was installed. I went thru two pumps. After the last one seized up, the fountain went into storage.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. I think the concept of Easy Water is OK, but it's doesn't go far enough to fix all of hard water properties (problems).

I think I'm going to keep my Easy Water system and add a good ole salt driven water softner as well, hoping to get the benefits of both. Any thoughts?


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Seems to me you are simply experiencing life with hard water. Try this - Keep doing everything you are doing - use the LemiShine and wipe down faucets, etc. but disconnect the EasyWater and see if anything changes.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

"I think the concept of Easy Water is OK, but it's doesn't go far enough to fix all of hard water properties (problems)"

From what you posted it doesn't fix any of the problems you get with hard water because it is not a water softener.

You paid good money for the Easy Water and now you buy Lemon Shine and CLR and Lime Away and question your mega buck dishwasher's performance... what a testimonial for Easy Water.

Buy a properly sized and correctly set up softener and sell the Easy Water cause it does little to nothing for you now..


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Ok, I'm putting my two cents worth on the thread that just won't die!:) I have ordered the Pelican Natursoft filter and water conditioner for the home we are currently building. (Planned on going with salt system but builder and plumber forgot to put a drain and no! we are not going back and busting out concrete now-which is our only option.) I researched and came up the the Pelican. If it will help have better hair days(hate hard water) and less spotting great. It may not be totally soft water but anything is better than what comes out of the pipes now.(yes, i'm on city water)


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

bh401.....

Will be interested in learning your opinion when you are up and running.

Culligan used to have an exchange-tank softener service that did not require a drain. Assume they still do but don't really know. Does require scheduled tank-exchanges at intervals depending on your use.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

The technology used in the Pelican system does appear to have promise. However I would personally have a very difficult time doing business with a company that uses such ridiculously fallacious scare tactics to sell their product. Either it works or it doesn't and the science will bear that out, but their explanations about softening and RO are riddled with intentional misinformation.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Just a quick post regarding the dishwasher issue:

Since this summer all dishwasher detergent mfg's have stopped using phosphates and that is the big reason behind the machines not cleaning properly.

Read about the issue here:

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/home/2010/07/phosphate-ban-dishwasher-detergents-phosphorous-level-review-of-best-dishwasher-detergents-cleaning-.html

Here is a link that might be useful: Consumer Reports Re: Phosphates


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Might be worth adding TSP to the DW with each load.

The phosphate free detergent is VERY poor.


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Salt Free Water Softener l Water Softener Alternative l ScaleBlas

I am no expert/engineer but I do know when a product works. After years of dealing with a traditional salt based water softener I came across the ScaleBlaster which claims to be a green alternative to a water softener. I was def intrigued and decided to research further. Yes, it was a sales rep that I initially dealt with but after speaking with their engineers their as well and seeing the independent studies complied, http://www.scaleblaster.com/TheScaleBlasterScience.aspx I figured I would give it a try. It has done all that the company, Clearwater Enviro Technologies, claims it will do. Scale around faucets, dishwashers, shower heads, etc has been removed. Now, there is slightly more spotting on shower walls and glass but this was explained to me before I bought the item. Because the minerals are left in the water there will be some spotting due to evaporation. But because of the molecular structure of the altered calcium and magnesium, the spots are easily wiped off with a dry cloth. Even with my water softener, scale build up still occurred. Because even with a water softener, not 100% of the minerals are removed so there for all it does is prolong the scaling process. And in order to remove the spotting, or actually the scaling, that a water softener leaves behind you must use chemicals and scrub. My water does feel softer, but without the slimy feeling that a salt based water softener gives you. I use just as little soaps and detergents as I used when I had a softener and my clothes still come out as bright, colorful, and fluffy as they did with a water softener.

Now I am not going to claim that I fully understand how an electro magnetic frequency induced by a coil wrapped around your incoming water line can alter calcium and magnesium but I will tell you this, I don't care how it truly works as long as something works.

After all, what are the true benefits to having a water softener...softer feeling water (not so harsh on your skin), protect appliances from wear and tear, reduced use of soaps and detergents, etc. Now whether those benefits come from a product that can be measured, i.e. a water hardness reading with or without a water softener, or not...even though there are studies and microscopic results showing that a electro magnetic frequency physically alters the minerals that cause hard water...does it really matter as long as you get the results you are looking for?

I just feel that if you care about your bottom line financially, and about the environment, then going with some kind of alternative to a salt based water softener makes sense and I full heartily condone the advance in science and use of alternative methods of giving a soft water feel.

We must all remember, the introduction of a microwave took 40 years to become a household item because of skeptics...and look where we are now, we wouldn't live without them.

Here is a link that might be useful: Water Softener


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Where I live the water runs about 30 gpg hard with fluctuations throwout the year.

I have 0 hardness (because my softener is correctly sized and properly set up for efficient operation).

We get NO, let me repeat, NO water spots on glassware or shower doors.

Average life of a water heater is 1.5 to two years.

My water heater was installed in late 1995 and I get nothing but clear water when I drain it once a year.

Water heaters are not cheap and neither are plumbers.

My softener has paid for itself 4 times over just in not buying water heaters.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

My profession is a city water treatment operator. It's been my profession for 19 years now.
I know that using Ozone where I currently work it changes the polarity of some elements which gives them a neutral charge and helps our process settle them out far easier. It has obvious other applications but one of the side-effects of using Ozone is the changing of the polarity of some particles in the water.
I have to ask... if Ozone can do that to a particle.
Why can't electricity change the polarity of a particle?

I tend to look at things scientificly and thus I ask questions and examine before ever coming to any conclusions.

I am still asking questions and observing and learning but to state that you can not change the polarity of a particle is a falsehood. You can.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I don't believe any of us are questioning whether or not the polarity of a particle can or can't be changed. I don't believe that anyone is questioning the science that any of these products claim in their advertising that their products are based on.

What the thinkers on this forum, like you, are questioning is the real life in the field performance of any of these products and what do they actually achieve and is that achievement associated with what they claim their products do.

With any independent scientific review or evaluation of the products themselves conspicuously absent we are left wanting for hard data and test results.

Descaling technology is a reality and supported by hard data but mostly from commercial applications and the process seems to be incorporated in environments where softening the water is not the sole intended purpose.

In a residential environment with hard water, softening is what people are looking for both for cosmetic and preventive maintenance reasons. It's no coincidence that all these no salt devices initially called themselves no salt softeners and then did the backstroke in a real hurry when challenged. It's also no coincidence that most of these devices are only sold online or long distance where, when a customer is not happy the seller can't be stared down eye to eye.

JMO...


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I appologize for wasting my own time posting here. After reading all the responses on this thread it is quite obvious that there are a couple water-softening salesmen that are here just to shout down and insult people to make consenting though just go away.
I will seek elsewhere for more intelligent thought.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Carl,

If you're looking for people to blindly agree with you and to tell you what you want to hear then this is not the place.

There are people here who think and question the same as you profess to do. when they take a position they defend it with facts and data and logical argument and the discussion begins... and sometimes never ends.

Don't post and run... defend your position or is it you that has an underlying economic interest in water conditioning?

Perhaps you'd be happier at this forum... http://watertechonline.com/board.asp It is a forum for the water treatment professional.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

"Why can't electricity change the polarity of a particle? "

Because electricity is not ionizing.

The charge to change anything has to come from somewhere.

While electricity can be used to break down water releasing hydrogen and oxygen, it is still leaving a net charge of zero.

Ozone works by attaching a free oxygen atom (O3 breaks down to O2 and a free oxygen atom) to anything it manages to come into contact with.

The free oxygen is not charged (still neutral) but is extremely reactive.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

This somewhat takes the conversation ona tangent, but for pity's sake, please do not explain complicated chemistry by breaking it down to inaccurate simplicities. If, as you said, a free oxygen atom were neutral, it would not be extremely reactive. This is BASIC chemistry. An oxygen molecule, O2, is essentially neutral, but a free oxygen, has a negative charge, which is WHY IT IS SO REACTIVE - it is seeking a neutral state.

Ozone is a strong oxidizer, but this does not necessarily imply that it simply adds an oxygen to anything it sees. With metals for instance, changing the oxidation state results in a change in charge, the end result being entirely dependent on composition of the solids dissolved in the water. On it's own in a gaseous state, ozone (O3) breaks down to oxygen molecules (O2) 2 O3 ---> 3 O2.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

"If, as you said, a free oxygen atom were neutral, it would not be extremely reactive. "

Wrong.

It is neutral and looking to fill a single valence electron spot by bonding with something.

O2 is formed by a covalent bond were an electron is 'shared' between the two atoms.


Oxygen does not normally rely on ionic bonding.

Ozone is not stable because only a single electron shell is needed to form the covalent bond of O2.

O3 breaks down into O2 and a free oxygen that rapidly combines with anything it can.

If there is another free oxygen atom it will form O2, but it cal also bond onto many other things.

This is why it is effective at removing odors, killing bacteria, and other handy things

THAT is basic chemistry.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

A couple of years ago I placed an Easy Water unit at my pump house on the ranch. I have a large water softner (salt/resin)but because of the expense of salt I tried this "miraculous" system on line. Well, absolutely no difference in the raw water and the Easy Water. It would take a miracle for it to start working. There goes over $1100 and high hopes.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Easy Water is a fake, phoney ,and fraud.
A wire wrapped around a metal pipe can not induce an electro magnetic field inside the pipe. The metal pipe acts as a short circuit preventing the magnetic field from penetrating.
So it is not even a question as to whether calcium ions are magnetic since the magnetic field can not even reach the calcium.
My credentials:
35 years experience as senior microwave engineer.
So if you want to be scammed of $1500, buy Easy Water


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I just spent an enjoyable evening reading this forum. I became interested in EasyWater several years ago when my neighbor installed a tankless water heater and was told he needed the EasyWater to keep the sensor in the heater clean. (He was also sold a maintenance contract to clean it.) After the EasyWater installation, he let the salt in his water softener run out. A month later, his wife set out to buy new dishes because the old ones were gray. He has kept the water softener filled with salt since. A local radio personality who advertises EasyWater confesses that he also has a water softener for similar reasons.

I am under the impression that EasyWater claims to use radio frequency, not magnetism. I am not sure how much the RF or magnetism is obtunded in the copper pipe. It would seem that a very simple experiment could be performed running the treated water through pipes filled with scale and an untreated control through similar pipes. It might also show how far from the installation the water remains "treated"�.. 30 feet to the shower head? Since these treatment vendors are more interested in advertising and testimonials, it is doubtful that they would do such an experiment, or report any unfavorable results.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Let me start by stating that I am an FCC licensed RF engineer. I wound up on this site trying to find unbiased user reviews on electronic water conditioning systems as my water softener has bit the dust.

Forgive my long post. When I read in an earlier comment that EasyWater uses radio frequencies to induce a current in the water I became immediately skeptical of the "proposed" science. All of the terminology regarding Ampere's Law and Faraday's Law of Induction are being used out of context to what is being described as the operating principals of systems like EasyWater.

Radio waves don't induce a current (Faraday's law) in a conductor (copper pipe) unless the pipe is a tuned circuit, which it isn't. Neither do they penetrate the pipe to even reach the water inside the pipe. Radio signals, therefore, have no effect on the water in the pipe and would cause no current flow in the pipe itself for too many reasons to elaborate on here. Radio waves are useless in treating water.

An earlier comment about the signal being strong enough to travel beyond the bathrooms, while well intended, makes no sense. Water can't carry a signal therefore there is no signal to distribute throughout the house. Impure water can conduct electricity but only between two opposite polarity electrodes. These systems do not operate on any principal that involves electrodes. Therefore, the water does not carry a signal anywhere.

Ampere's law describes magnetic fields that form around conductors (wires or pipes in this case). If you were to apply a magnetic field to water, it might change the orientation of ferric minerals in the water (think iron) but the orientation of the minerals will fall back to random (their original state) immediately upon leaving the magnetic field. Calcium and other non-ferric minerals wouldn't be affected by magnetic fields. There is no chemical change to water that has passed through a magnetic field. Magnetism and therefore Ampere's law as a mechanism are useless in treating water.

Finally lets assume that EasyWater or other systems of similar design claim to operate by inducing currents in the pipe. The problem here is that in order for a current to flow in the pipe, the pipe must be a closed circuit. In other words, the pipe must loop back on itself to close the circuit. House plumbing is technically an open circuit to induced currents so no current will be induced in the pipe or water.

If companies claim to operate by radio frequencies then their claim of any functionality is entirely bogus. If their claim is to treat the water using electromagnetism the claim is equally bogus. If they claim to induce a voltage or current in the pipe to treat water it too is bogus.

The independent research paper was pulled from AquaGenesis' web site as It apparently didn't pass muster. So I went to their "how it works" page and was disappointed. They describe an electric current as the principal of operation but in their diagram they point to a magnetic field in the diagram. Buzz - wrong! Then on a different page that explains the process, they claim an electric current is induced in the pipe. So which is it? Magnetic fields around the pipe or electrical current through the pipe? Claiming magnetic fields around the pipe on one page then electric currents through the pipe in another pager are entirely contradictory and therefore suspect.

Another problem that concerned me was that the very few published studies on the principal of operation of these systems are not peer reviewed studies. Most were underwritten by the device manufacturer or articles published in dubious trade magazines. There seems to be no reputable journal published studies that demonstrate any functional principals behind these gadgets work. The few reputable studies I could find found they don't work.

Well, after reading this page and visiting the manufacturer's sites, and reading the dubious research papers, I won't be spending the money on one of their systems unless someone can convince me there is some other technology in use that they're keeping secret. Again, sorry for the long comment but I thought I would share what I learned.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I couldn't imagine the Easy Water would work but then I don't understand TV nor micro waves. I bought a hopeful solution to numerous problems. My 25 year old Kinetico was leaking and cycling too often. My floor drain, despite numerous attempts to clean was no longer handling the discharge when cycling took place.

All my water, cold and hot was on the system except one faucet in the kitchen for drinking, cooking and plants. I even had one outside faucet softened for car washing. My barn has unsoftened water off the same well for a toilet and sink. The scale build up out there was terrible, nothing in the house. Carrying salt into the house was becoming difficult for me, will be impossible for my wife if I go first. I knew the Kinetico had to go and so before I replaced it which would require major work on the floor drain and finding somebody to deliver salt I bought the Easy Water. If things start to scale up like in the barn I
might just have to let it happen but the Easy Water will go back. Right now I'm encouraged. With the softened water we couldn't use it or the water from the unsoftened faucet to make tea, coffee or hot choclate. We had to get water from the grocery store. If we were having company for iced tea or cocktails we needed store bought ice. Otherwise the drinks would have floaties. Bourbon with good ice and water would be clear and light colored. With our old water and cubes it would be dark and cloudy. (Still had a pleasant effect). Presently we think we are seeing some improvement. If before the 90 day warranty runs out we think it is working we'll keep it. If not it will go back. Easy to install, easy to uninstall.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Hey I bought your device on your word that it worked PS IT DOESN"T DO
> JACK. I was given the run around for several years back and forth with
> your company sending u emails with pictures of the condition of my
> plumbing and kept being told give it time. It could take up to a year or
> more until it completely takes effect. BULL. Its is going on three years
> and I am still continuing to have the same problems I had before I sent
> you a bunch of money with a promise that you had the solutuion. If you
> take the time you can reveiw the emails I sent and the pictures I sent I
> just finished taking all the plumbing fixtures water inlets appart which
> is pretty much a quarterly event since I put in Easy Water. You can
> contact me because I want someone from your company to come to my house
> and test this thing as I requested when it never appeared to work from day
> one. If not you can read about them on the may websites that claim what a
> fraud FREIJE is and I have detailed pictures of what i clean out of my
> plumbing to this day to post with it. So whats it going to be stand
> behind you product and make the trip to NJ because that is all I ask or
> hear about it on my friend Glenn Becks Program. Thank you Bernie Kelly.
Been tryng to send this to anyone at EASYWATER seems all of their email address are shut down. I have the before and after pictures of the deposits in my pipes to prove the thing is a major scam. Now I am trying something I fabricated myself which takes the hot water as soon as it comes out of my heater and picks the mineral chunks out of it before they get into my faucets/showerhead/and anywhere else you don't want them. It seems the only problem I have is in the hot water as I have a tankless hot water heater and according to Easy Water idiots they work in conjunction with the tankless people. So will know in a couple of weeks if my fix worked. If anyone is interested email me I will tell you what I did and how it worked or not.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Can I just say this?
No one yet has said " I'm not with the water softener companies..." and no one has said " I'm not with the EasyWater companies." I find that very interesting that no one will own up to the claims put before them. And, really, who has to believe that you have x number of years as a chemist. Just critical thinking out there people on who is contributing to this page.

My parents use a salt water softener. They still have poor water pressure, but some of that is from the mesh filters over their faucets that my husband took out when he noticed their pressure sucked.

And, how is salt bad for the environment? NaCl occurs in the environment. Putting both Calcium and Magnesium back into the ground doesn't seem so bad to me. I'd be more worried about the dish detergents we use and the toilet bowl cleaners, hair dyes, and the plastic boxed food we put in our bodies. Um. Yeah.

My only credintials: Nursing student.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I am a registered professional electrical engineer. The major tip off to me that EasyWater is very likely a scam is the same usage on copper and plastic pipe. Other indications in my experience are the smooth marketing aspects used without any hard facts. Also I see no mention of the power required to run the unit. The fins are heat sinks and are substantial. With the 'signal wire' carrying a current from that size of power electronics package I would expect the plastic wire insulation to melt. I wonder how much radio frequency radiation is generated by such an antenna formed by the 'signal wire'? By the way, have you ever seen one a unit of this type used in a nuclear power plant to remove ions from the reactor cooling water? They use resin beds. I will stay with the chemical process of ion exchange. There is no "physical process" at the ion level.


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Asking a Chemist about an Electro-Magnetic effect

would be like asking your electric company for advice on what chemicals to treat your pool with. Sorry guys, you may be chemists, but you're obviously not familiar with advanced physics as it relates to magnetics. I don't blame you, my parents couldn't have imagined a jet breaking the sound barrier, then one traveling over Mach 3.5 only a few years later. Or dragsters producing 10,000 horsepower and reaching 330mph in a quarter mile. Some things happen wether you believe them or not.

Yes it DOES work. Even FIXED magnets work, and they've been used for decades in industry under names like Descal-A-Matic.
Otherwise why would the guy post it almost destroyed the cooling towers.
What was happening is they either had the magnets on backwards or weren't following the directions which require them to DRAIN the water as the scale dissolves into the water.
If this was all bunk, they wouldn't have seen ANY effect.

The problem is, if you have OLD pipes that have a lot of scale, it makes the water HARDER. I put a set of Magnetizer magnets on a house built in the 1800s (obviously some of the plumbing is newer than that). And similar to the previous poster attested, it (the scale dissolving) almost ruined my dishwasher with scale buildup that wasn't there before i put the magnets on.
The question I have is, how many years would it take to completely descale old pipes and a 10 year old water heater? You could only tell by cutting open the plumbing.

The bigger question would be is EasyWater worth as much as a water softener, or is a $50 set of magnets bought from Heartland America just as effective? There were/are other electro-magnetic softeners that cost around and just over $100 also, btw.

As far as why the water treatment companies wouldn't want to sell a little box
or magnet instead of an expensive salt using, eco polluting system or swap-out exchange tanks where softeners have been made illegal. Easy, why also wouldn't the bottled water companies just sell people $150 Reverse Osmosis filters so they could make their own water? It's money they would no longer make off the consumer.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

We have been investigating Easy Water for some time. I met with their sales people and found that one of the largest tankless water heater companies have been testing the Easy Water products, along with others with their tankless systems. They found that a new system looked new after 6 months and a "caked up" system from hard water was significantly cleaner after that same period of time. Still skeptical, we did nothing. I attended a water purification class for CEU's and te instructor happened to be from that same tankless company, who is also an expert in water purifcation (hence the reason he was teaching this course)I spoke with him afterwards and he confirmed what I had been told previously. They were continuing their testing in different locations, but were very impressed with their findings thus far. Our owner then put one in his home. He has noted that the lime buildup that used to be on his dedicated water dispenser is gone. Less soap is used. All of the claims appear to be true. and YES -- he had a softener in the house. He has had it for several years. It had been shut down for a couple of months before the Easy Water was set up.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

So after the point of treatment with one of these easywater things, How far downline does it take for the scale to regain its stickyness? 1 foot, 2 feet, 10 feet? Have not seen this angle talked about anywhere. Or do you need one of these at every POU (point of use), (sinks, toilets, hot waterheaters, etc...) or will one just before entering the home work? How about well water sytems, one at the well and one at the home entry point? questions, questions, Not enough good answers.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

east water is not a softener, it a conditioner, prevernta scale from building up in appliances, and shower heads. Nothing saya softener in their ad. Iron Shield made by easy water is a saltless softenr, I own one and it works wonderful, no mor salt ever


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Anyone who is looking into this type of water softening, you could just flush that money down your toilet and whoosh your water is softened , at least as soft as it was before. Save yourself a lot of dollars and skip this "miracle " .


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

We�re really confused over Easy Water. We have a h2o softener, 20" Carbon filter and potassium permanganate system.
Have been thru 4 hot water tanks in 12 years. Rusty toilet etc. We�re extremely desperate for good water.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

After reading this post, it has become clear to me how easy it is to deceive uneducated people. These same 'magic magnet' scams have been on the market for years and there are still 'belivers' out there, including 'fule saving' scams based on the VERY SAME IDEA that magnetic fields can somehow change the chemistry of the gasoline!

Here's a list of some of the claims made for permanent (and alternating field) magnet fuel savers, culled from a few minutes work looking around on the internet. Or as I prefer it, a list of what magnets do not do:

Attract hydrocarbons.
Align hydrocarbons in neat little rows.
Polarise or charge gasoline molecules so the fuel breaks apart.
Disrupt molecular clusters of gasoline.
Ionise gasoline.
Convert intake air to provide more oxygen.
Lower surface tension of gasoline / coolant.
Improve fuel burn through magnetic resonance.

Magnets don't do these things because they can't. They certainly don't do things like this piece of science-sounding BS, describing the mode of action of the 'fule saving' devices. Here is a quote from a 'true believer':

"In a similar way that water conditioned by magnets mixes with other substances more readily, fuel conditioned by a strong magnetic force carries more energy and mixes more readily with air resulting in a more complete combustion. i.e. more energy and less waste from the same amount of fuel."

The fuel scammers are using the 'EasyWater' scam as PROOF that their scam is true! AMAZING! Not very good science to use one scam to prove another. One post said that EasyWater removes the positive charge from the hard-water ions, but never explains where this REQUIRED ELECTRONS comes from! I have worked with ion beam technology at Applied Materials (creating semiconductor wafers for such companies as Intel corporation), using charged particle beams to dope wafers. These 'ions' are created with very strong electric fields and an electron beam created in a VACUUM, with very high currents.
Positive ions are created when the electron beam collides with a neutral particle, 'knocking out' an electron from the molecule, (creating an ion). When the field is removed, the electrons 're-combine' with the molecules, which causes a nice emission of a photon (pretty colors), and the particle is once again 'neutral'.
The problem is the a magnetic field alone will not create an ion (or supply an electron no neutralize it). Magnetic fields can 'stear' moving ions, (as we use magnetic fields to 'focus' the ion beam), but to create the ions, you need 'ionizing energy' to be applied to a molocule. A magnetic field applied to a 'non-charged' particle will not effect it, so you must first ionize it, and EasyWater cannot do that with just a simple alternating current in a wire! The only effect an alternating magnetic field has on an ion is to 'vibrate' it in space, while it is passing by the field! As soon as the field is remove (or the water moves past the unit), the 'ions' return to their initial condition. A permanent magnet will move the ions in the direction of the field (according to the right-hand rule of magnetic fields), so the positivily-charged hard-water ions will move toward the 'North' pole, (slightly deflected), but otherwise unaffected, and negatively charged ions will move to the 'South' pole. Here is a link to 'actual' science on this subject:

http://www.chemistryland.com/CHM107Lab/Lab5/Filters/Lab5Exp2filters.html

Dissolved salts have positively charged metal ions like sodium ion (Na+), potassium ion (K+), calcium ion (Ca+2), copper ion (Cu+/Cu+2), and dozens more metal ions. The negative half of these salts are chloride (Cl-), fluoride (F-), carbonate (CO3)-2, nitrate (NO3)-2, hydroxide (OH)-, arsenate (AsO4)-3.

In theory, it is possible to separate these 'positive' and 'negative' ions in water with a fixed field applied to
Moving ions, which produce a magnetic field, so an external magnetic field can move the ions accordingly, but without an 'ion exchange' there is no way to remove them or keep them from 'sticking' to your pipes! Once the field is removed, diffusion will 're-mix' these ions in the solution. No amount of testimonials can refute these truths.
I am still waiting for Java44 to post again.

EasyWater is a scam. Those of you who still believe in it should examine your mind to see if there is some sort of 'placibo' effect going on.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Easy Water is a scam. It may take minerals out of water but leaves them wherever it touches. It is totally unsatisfactory and people should be warned.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I have been checking out your posts on the Easywater systems. Having been married to a plumber pipefitter for over 25 years I would like to share one of his favorite sayings with you. "Why do engineers wear neckties?" "So they can pull their heads out of their A$$E$. So all engineers who posted most likey have never applied anything regarding easywater, they just keep yapping on theory. So consequently the only way to know whether it works or not for me would be to install one, think I will do just that and report back, that is if the engineers will believe I am just a plain ole consumer and not a sales person.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

maybe this should be submitted to Mythbusters!


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I happened across this thread, not because I'm considering getting an EasyWater water softener, but because I'm looking into non-salt water conditioners. I should have realized from the title of the discussion that it is a perfect set up for water softener shills and bigots who offer little information, constantly repeat misinformation, and use the term "bias" as an excuse for lying.

I am now more intrigued by non-salt water conditioners, because the fervor (including name calling and baseless sarcasm) of the water softener advocates tells me they're protecting something (e.g. their financial interests or old time ignorance). aliceinwonderland states over and over, in various forms, ad nauseam, that EasyWater doesn't soften water. Well, duh! Anyone who's looked into non-salt conditioning already knows that, so alice's argument can only persuade the uninformed.

On a forum like this, who is who they say they are? alice claims to be a "chemical engineer with 10 years of water treatment experience," but can't understand how calcium minerals can remain in aragonite form after passing through a coil. While demanding proof that these systems work, alice doesn't even faintly acknowledge an understanding of the simple chemistry of polymorphs. Already lacking credibility, alice's use of "perspective" instead of "prospective" and misspelling of "astronaumical" indicate a lack of education. (alice didn't go to Cal!)

And what's with old engineer, who can't figure out how an electrical field can pass through copper and plastic pipes? Seriously? Does he have trouble with the concept of water flowing through copper and plastic pipes? Okay, that's unfair, but a true electrical engineer wouldn't have trouble with such simple electrical fields. And old engineer asks if we've ever seen a nuclear power plant use an EasyWater type of unit. Gee, when was the last time we built a nuclear power plant in America?

This kind of uninformed by bias or straight out lying has rendered this discussion virtually useless. Shame on you!

Sam


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

You know I did my research on Easy Water and the Freije Water treatment systems and read through all of this blog and a few others like it, started by "experts" and "chemists" none of who own, have ever owned or ever interviewed any of the tens of thousands of satisfied customers and hundreds of commercial clients like Wal-Mart, Arby's, Frito-lay who not only use the Freije commercial systems, but will use nothing else to condition their water. www.easywaterblog.com gives you a list of more of their commercial clients who have been with them for many years. I actually went and interviewed at their home office in Greenfield Indiana and wanted to know about the company, reputation, products if I was going to represent them and work for them. I can tell you first hand that building is immaculate, 35,000 feet the people, staff, and owners some of the most real and genuine people you will ever meet. I not only am a very satisfied customer but a satisfied employee as well. I have no agenda and I don't hide behind a clever email address or name. I have studied water for two dozen years and those experts who think it is nothing more than hydrogen and oxygen with some ions attached to it simply demonstrate their ignorance of the complexity and beauty of water. Real experts know that an electronic current can, does and will alter the characteristics of water, as well as the minerals in the water. Calcium and Magnesium, your hardness minerals, have a very high electrostatic charge and when exposed to extreme temperature changes (+ or - 20 degrees), or pressure, the minerals come out of solution and adhere to the lining of pipes, fixtures and any surface they can cling to. The Freije technology, which has numerous patents, and was created by a Mechanical engineer from Purdue University (Bill Freije) through hundreds of thousands of real world trials and applications completely and effectively alters the minerals so they are unable to adhere to any pipes, fixtures and reduces the surface tension of the water so that it actually dissolves back into itself any existing mineral build up in the pipes, water appliances etc. And this has been demonstrated over and over by REAL Commercial, Industrial and Residential Clients throughout North America. You can see actual pictures of altered minerals at www.easywater.com. The company has been in business since 1986 under the SAME name, has 1 Corporate home office, and an A+ rating with the BBB. Do you really think a "scam" or ineffective technology in today's information age could last that long? How could we do National Advertising 4-8 times a day on Fox news, and be endorsed by 2 of the largest 3 talk show hosts in the country, who ARE CLIENTS and OWN our systems if it was bad technology? Ask yourself, who are these "experts" really and how many patents have they applied for and gotten? What have they invented in their lives besides this blog and a story line of disinformation and half truths to validate their outdated diploma and beliefs that the world is really still flat, that human beings can't fly, that light cannot come from lightening, that model T's will never replace horses, that sand can never be used to create computing power, etc. etc. etc? Salt Softener technology was discovered in 1921 by Emmet Culligan. Sound familiar? Yes 1921. Do you really think that technology and advancement has and can only occur in every area of science, life and the world EXCEPT WATER? You're much brighter than that. The Salt Softening Industry is a multibillion dollar dinosaur that has long outlived its usefulness and has become very destructive to the eco-system and the human biological system. Do your research about the damaging effects of salt water discharge. The average softener discharges 10,000, yes TEN THOUSAND gallons of Sodium Brine Water into the rivers, aquifers, and waterways EVERY YEAR. The entire plumbing industry makes about 1/3 of their monies on Softener Installation, Service, Repair and Replacement. Service contracts sound familiar? Connecting some dots yet? Old industries and ideas don't like to die or be replaced by new and more innovative ones. Marconi, Bell, Edison, Wright Brothers, Einstein, Ghandi, Firestone, King, Gates, Tesla, Mozart and many other visionaries went against the "experts" and traditional thinking and technology and changed the world and our lives but not without a fight from the mediocre minds of their day. Stop reading the 1921 old world thinking experts who are NOT clients and will never BE clients because they don't WANT to see and KNOW the truth about a technology that is sweeping the country and replacing the 1921 model because this new technology works. And it is and will replace the 1921 systems and model and thinking. The company offers a 90 day Try and SEE for yourself model with 0 risk to you. What softener company offers that? They can't because once it's installed, you own it whether you want it or not. So stop buying salt and this ridiculous story line that props of the egos of self proclaimed experts and Non Clients and discover for YOURSELF the truth. I did. And I am glad I did. In fact, call the company yourself for the facts, or call me directly if you dare 317-336-3694. I'm extension 161 on the main number. There is a very old phrase that is applicable here: The Truth shall set you free. Find out for yourself what it is. I dare you. You have nothing to lose but an old expensive to maintain salt system and sodium in your water. Cliff


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Cliff,
I notice that your email address contains the word "president". Are you the president of Freije Water Treatment? Just curious.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Chemical physics: Electric or magnetic fields on the out side of a copper pipe have no effect inside the pipe. Check out "electromagnetic shielding" as in "Faraday shield". For a plastic pipe the field will penetrate but as with so many of the other responses will have only an effect in the neighbor of the field. Ca++ and Mg++ cause the scale, soap scum etc.
As to testing in real life I was bombarded with calls a few years ago to allow a test of the system in our metals refinery. (I was technical director of the company at the time). After countless refusals I finally told the very persistent salesman that he could come at his own expense and I would have representatives of our engineering, maintenance, analytical and environmental staffs on hand to observe an "in factory" test. After a full day of testing the sales rep departed, a downhearted man.
Dr. Bob, PhD Chemistry


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Can't we all just get along? No, we can't. Can't we just reveal the facts? No, we can't.

Water softener shopping has 'bout worn me out. And after reading this 'factual debate', I'm more confused than ever.

While one engineer/chemist (holy man sounding), claims he'd stake his life on the fact that EasyWater DOESN'T work, the next equally holy engineer/chemist stakes his life that it DOES work! Which one is lying? Don't know yet.

One housewife swears her Easywater system works and the next housewife swears her EasyWater system don't work.

I just yanked my Culligan system out. It's sitting in my garage taking up space. I'm thinking of putting it on Ebay for open bids; somebody else can drink salt for five years on a high bid.

So the salt thing is OUT for me forever, and so I wound up here trying to get some facts on what to use THIS time around, but I just got personal politics instead.

I'm not buying another system until I KNOW - until I see proof - that it will work. Yap, yap, yapping from either political party, won't get my money for the next water softener system to go into my house.

I'll post again AFTER I figure this out, but I'll not cut every water pipe in my house as part of a 'before and after' test, just to prove one side - HEREIN - to be right or wrong so's they can say SEE, TOLD YA!


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No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

purchased this unit three years ago and it was a complete waste of money. The water in our house is as hard as ever and the company would not refund my money. I can't believe this company is still in business.

PLEASE DON'T WASTE YOUR HARD EARNED MONEY.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Well said Cliff.

We have been going since 1989, having introduced the technology into UK and latterly (1991) into the USA (Scalewatcher).

Many products now available are a copy, patents are only good if the copier makes money from it to make suing them worthwhile. Its only the lawyers who get rich on patent actions.

A quarter of our business is hotel-standard accomodation for the UK Ministry of Defence and they would not still continue to purchase from us if all the hot water systems we have been protecting over the past 7 years were found to contain scale during the annual inspection.

RIBA (Royal Institute of Architects) would not have bestowed an award on us if after their due-diligence they had concluded we were not effective at what we do.

I do not care which technology is used to prevent scaling, but for our children's sake lets stop throwing things away that get damaged by scale, wasting water and energy etc. At this rate we will exhaust raw material in a few generations, copper is already in short supply
John Thompson


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I have very hard water and have a Culligan system. I heard the EasyWater ads and thought I would get it to save the money on the salt. I usually research this, but for some reason, I didn't google it. I installed the EW system and within 1-2 days, the formerly softened water became noticeably hard again. My wife complained about the shower water, and the dishwasher (a Bosch) was full of mineral deposits after a few washes (and it wasn't working as well as before--scaly glasses, food stuck to the plates, etc.).
By coincidence, my Culligan guy came to change my RO filters, and he noticed the EW and just laughed and said "Yea, we see these things showing up every decade or so. I first saw these in the 70s." By that point, I was already pretty sure that something was not right with the EW, and the Culligan guy was the tipping point. I sent the EW back and got a full refund. Feel like I dodged a $1200 bullet with that one.
Give it a try if you'd like, but if you're replacing a salt softener, you'll notice the quick deterioration of your formerly soft water. If you don't have a salt softener, you might think something is happening (placebo/wishful thinking) to your water, but from my experience, this is a total scam.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Yes I have a degree but I will still try anything just to prove it to myself. I have not bothered to read this entire blog so forgive me if this has been mentioned before. I have to wonder since there seem to be satisfied customers and dissatisfied customers that there must be something to do with what chemical elements make up the scale of the different water systems discussed here. A true qualitative analysis probably costs more than it would to just simply purchase and try the system but for those on public water systems it may be prudent to at least call your local municipal water plant and ask them for the most recent analysis results and see if Easy Water will confirm the system will work or not. An honest salesman should do the right thing if he truly wants to gain confidence in their product. I worked at various factories with refrigeration systems that used evaporative condensers for cooling and boilers. In one location the water produced so much scale that we seriously were considering a reverse osmosis system. I left before the money was ever approved for that so I don't know how it worked out. The main thing is that the scale problem there was not calcium or magnesium but rather dissolved silica. The water felt slimy. It didn't taste terrible but everything that was not scrubbed everyday built up a white scale that was near impossible to clean. It would be interesting to know if the Easy Water system would have given any help in that case.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I am a retired chemical engineer and have specialized in water treatment for over 30 years.

I have had a Freije Easy Water conditioner since 2004. It has performed in every way claimed by the company.

No, it doesn't REMOVE the hardess from the water. It merely changes its form so that it does not form a scale buildup on piping etc.

The best indication of success has been our shower head. Our house was nearly 20 years old (without a sodium cycle softener) when we installed the Easy Water. I cleaned the shower head at that time. In about 6 months, I had to clean it again and I haven't needed to clean it since (6 years). It has actually removed 20 years of scale from the house piping.

I believe because I have used it successfully for 7 years.

All such water conitioners are not equal. I don't know about the others but I know this one works!


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I just purchase an Easywater system after 3 years of hemming and hawing about what to do about my hard water problem. I have a Rinnai, and spoke to a field technician about the tests they did with Easywater. He wouldn't endorse the product, but did say that the system worked well in San Angelo, TX where the test was performed. I priced Kinetico and other salt type softeners earlier this year because I was beginning to get concerned that I would have to replace my Rinnai (which will be 4 years old in October). We are a single income family and the salt options were really out of our price range. I also didn't want to remove the minerals from our water - our water tastes great. But I need my Rinnai to keep working.

We built and moved into our home in 2007. Within 2 months we began to have flakes showing up in the aerators of sinks, showers and the hot water line on the washing machine. Easywater said three years ago they could solve these problems, but I read this forum and was very skeptical.

Last week, I got an email saying they were running a sale on all systems. So I got the 2200 system for $999, and they gave me a 120 day (typically a 90 day) money back guarantee. I haven't had any type of softener on our house since it was built and we moved in back in 2007. So far, I can't notice any difference (it was installed Friday - July 1, 2011, so we're only on day 5). I'm doing my best not to look for any changes, but to evaluate where I am at 45 days, and then again at 80 days. I don't intend to put the 120 day MBG to the test. If I don't see improvement by day 80, I will be getting an RMA to return it. I'm pulling for this thing to descale my water heater, sink sprayer and shower heads. We really haven't had many problems with our dishwasher, but we have always used quantum tabs from finish and jet dry.

Our water was tested earlier this year by 3 different softener technicians (installers / salesmen). Though the results varied, the conclusion was the same. I have a hard water problem. Iron isn't an issue at all. I simply have hard water at ~11gpg.

I see that some folks haven't reported back. I intend to do so. People need some options to help them make informed decisions. This is the only place where I could find "independent" information. Unfortunately, I'm not a chemist or engineer, so I don't understand half of what most of you people are saying. You're like the teacher on Charlie Brown to me. And the name calling and blind defense of salt without even considering that this technology MIGHT work tells me that some people may be defending something. Maybe not - maybe they are just passionate about what they do.

I'm rooting for technology here, because it was a better price. If it doesn't work, i've lost nothing. Either way, I intend to report back with my results to help others make a better decision for them.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I've seen and heard both sides of the "isle"...but if anybody wants to SEE whether it works or not...why not ask the people who had the systems installed and invite them into thier home and SHOW them and PROVE whether or not the EasyWater system really works or not...SEEING IS BELIEVING.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Would the electrical currents from this contraption corrode the metal plumbing in my house/property? Any sort of corrosion at all?


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

I have been following the chat concerning Easy Water.If Rinnai recommends it & National talk radio endorses it, I'm willing to take the 90 day money back test. I'll let you all know what happens to us. In our neighborhood the water leaves a calcium type of buildup all over our appliances. We regularly have to replace water heaters & ice makers every 3 years. The shower heads clog & there are a number of slab leaks as well. If this cures our troubles then we'll all be happy.


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Would you ask a Carpenter how to Engineer a Skyscraper?

No offense to the working stiff, but...
Why would you trust a plumber with a Chemistry/Physics/Engineering question?
How many plumbers have you had recommend you drink filtered or bottled water? I've never met one. But health professionals know that Chlorine, Lead, even Fluoride are all toxins.
Did the debunkers answer why engineers who run cooling units on large buildings and skyscrapers have been using FIXED magnet descaling systems for decades?
Would a naysayer household plumber want to step up in front of one of these guys and call him a fool for buying into a fake scam?
Hell no, you know the engineers would have been fired if they wasted thousands and in some installations tens of thousands on worthless equipment.
The truth is it DOES have an effect.
The REAL question is, which product from which company.


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RE: Yes or No to EasyWater water softener by Freije

Installed a system and noted that after several days the dishwasher heating element scale build up disappeared and the element looked new - so Easywater must be doing something.....
However, for some reason, months and months later the scale build up on the element is starting to return. The Green lights on the Easywater box are illuminated indicating the system is working.
So it was working - as indicated by the element clean-up but now I may have a problem.


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