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Water softener decision for Austin, Texas city water

Ivan I
9 years ago

I want to better protect my plumbing from wear and tear due to scale.
I recently needed to replace a shower head from all the calcium build-up.

I have spent > 6 hours reading info over the past week. Probably more... I find it very difficult to sort through marketing hype vs real information. It occurred to me this evening that Gardenweb might have impartial information. (I follow the awesome kitchen forums.) I tried to figure this out 2 years ago and felt too ignorant, even after reading lots, to draw a conclusion.

My goal was to find a salt-free solution. But from reading Amazon reviews, they just don't work.

2 motivations for salt-free:
- I don't want to drink salt-added water. Though since I have a 3-stage RO system installed at kitchen sink, would that remove the salt that is added?
- Less maintenance time.

I read some of other threads here. Below - Draft #1 of the info I've seen requested. This isn't everything I've seen requested, but it's the first draft of what I can find so far, as of 1:15am today.

# of full bathrooms is 4
# of people ranges from 3 - 4 adults or near adults
no pool or hot tub

- Currently have a 3 stage Reverse Osmosis filter at the kitchen sink for drinking water, coffee, tea.
http://www.ecodynewatertreatment.com/undersink-filters/view/wher25/
Just replaced all 3 filters in it. Seems to work well though many Amazon reviews criticize it for leaking. I have not seen leaking to date.

- What I've been able to find about my water quality:

From the Austin Texas city water FAQ: "Hardness was 5.7 grains per gallon in 2011"

Full year 2013 report:
Grains of Hardness (grains/gallon) min 5, max 7, avg 6
Total Hardness (mg/l) min 80, max 130, avg 104
Calcium (mg/l) min 8, max 26, avg 12

From the Austin Texas Nov 2014 Water Quality Report
http://www.austintexas.gov/sites/default/files/files/Water/WaterQualityReports2014/wqr_nov14.pdf

http://www.austintexas.gov/page/whats-in-the-water

PH ranges from 9.4 - 9.8
Sulfate is 34 - 36 mg/L
Total Hardness MIN 92 MAX 109 Avg 102 mg/L
iron is ?
manganese is ?
TDS is ?

- I might install a tankless water heater if current water heater (15 years old) ever fails.

- I have a a 1 year old Hoshizaki cubelet icemaker (it extrudes the Sonic-type ice).
I had the inline water filter that Hoshizaki recommended installed with the icemaker, and just had it changed.

Everyone loves that ice. But wow the maintenance, which I religiously perform, is time-consuming and complicated, between the boric acid process and the bleach solution process. I re-wrote and re-organized the maintenance chapter for 1 month, 3 month, and 6 month maintenance into an Excel spreadsheet to make it easier to follow.

=== Questions:

- Given the above, is there enough information to make a decision?

- Where do I measure what size plumbing pipe comes into the house?
i.e., how do people know "Plumbing is 3/4 from the city and to the house." ?

- Should I buy a water test kit to find out the info missing from above? i.e., like this one:
http://www.karlabs.com/watertestkit/
I'd guess getting one of these kits is the only way to see before vs after actual data which I definitely would want to know.

- Do you think these are legitimate reviews?
http://www.amazon.com/Fleck-5600SXT-softener-digitial-metered/dp/B004GEFKN8/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hg_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0TQ0C3TTD1YYE3B1XB1A#customerReviews

- Are there online sources of truly objective water softener performance comparisons?

- Which certifications are meaningful?
Example: Pelican claims DVGW certification
http://www.pelicanwater.com/salt-free-water-softeners.php
http://www.dvgw.de/english-pages/dvgw/

Comments (9)

  • User
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Your water looks good, except for the high pH which could cause some corrosion in your pipes.

    There are a lot of salt-free water treatment options out there, most of which are complete scams. The only one that shows promise is TAC (template assisted crystallization), which is the method the Pelican system employs. It may be a decent option for you. However, there are some caveats:

    1. Your water must have NO particulates. If you have particulates in your water they must be filtered out prior to the TAC unit.

    2. Iron in your water must be below 0.3 ppm

    3. Manganese in your water must be below 0.05 ppm

    4. Silica must be below 10 ppm. Silica is often a problem in high-pH waters.

    5. No hydrogen sulfide or phosphates may be present in your water.

    6. Media only lasts 3 years before it must be replaced. Many websites will claim a five year life - don't believe it. The media manufacture's specs are very clear - 3 years. The media is expensive at approximately $150 per liter. Each liter provides 4 gpm capacity, so you likely need two to three liters. Most equipment sellers will claim 5 gpm capacity per liter but, again, this is contrary to the specs of the media manufacturer. You will spend about $300-$450 every three years on media.

    7. TAC media is sensitive to flow rates and results during low-flow times (such as running a sink to wash hands or brush teeth) may be poor.

    8. Companies selling TAC residential units, including Pelican, are extremely short on technical know-how and tend to misrepresent their products out of sheer ignorance.

    Analysis for the above-listed contaminants should be done by a certified water lab before giving TAC serious consideration. A home test kit won't cut it.

    If you decide to go with a softener instead, no need to worry about the added sodium (NOT salt) in your water. Your hardness is low enough that very little sodium will be added and your RO unit will removed 90% of it anyway.

    Plumbing size: You just need to look at it for a size stamp or marking or measure it.

  • Ivan I
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    AliceInWonderland, thanks so much. I will skip the salt-free approach. Even if water quality met those requirements that you described at the moment I test it, the water quality could always change down the road.

    We have a home show coming up in Austin in 1 week. I imagine a lot of water softener vendors will be there with "show specials".

    Do the water softeners that do not require electricity have significant downsides vs the electricity-powered ones?

  • User
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Softeners with water-powered, rather than electronic, valves are made by Kinetico, which is a very good company with a quality product. They ask a premium price for their products and parts and assistance are exclusive to their local dealers. If you like your local rep and the cost works for you, they are a good choice.

  • ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    two thoughts ....

    first ... salt is used to clean the filtering membrane ... and thru the flushing series.. you should NOT be drinking any salt ... it took me a long time to wrap my head around that part ... lol ... if that were not true.. everyone who owns a salt system.. would have high blood pressure. .. and trust me.. once you go rural.. a heck of a lot of peeps have this type of system ....

    second ... think about how much it cost you to replace the shower head .. vs what you are thinking about spending to avoid that cost ... e.g. with kids.. i have 20 to 30 dollar plastic shower heads ... and when they start to get clogged.. i replace them ... i can buy and screw on a lot of shower heads.. for the cost of a filtration system ... [probably cost more if you need to call a plumber ... but you should need such for a shower head]

    even if you have a very expensive shower head ... it still seems to be over kill to spend hundreds or thousands on a filter system ...

    i dont know your circumstances .... but just trying to clarify your thought process ... ignore my comments at will .. lol

    ken

  • Ivan I
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    >> first ... salt is used to clean the filtering membrane ... and thru the flushing series.. you should NOT be drinking any salt ... it took me a long time to wrap my head around that part ... lol ... if that were not true.. everyone who owns a salt system.. would have high blood pressure. .. and trust me.. once you go rural.. a heck of a lot of peeps have this type of system ....

    Good point. I hesitated to even mention it just because I thought it was a silly concern, but there it was in the back of my mind... visualizing drinking salt water.

    >> second ... think about how much it cost you to replace the shower head .. vs what you are thinking about spending to avoid that cost ... e.g. with kids.. i have 20 to 30 dollar plastic shower heads ... and when they start to get clogged.. i replace them ... i can buy and screw on a lot of shower heads.. for the cost of a filtration system ...

    Funny you mention this exact example.

    My favorite shower head (vs about 5 others I've tried and returned) is:

    Delta Vintage 4-in 2.5-GPM (9.5-LPM) Brushed Nickel 5-Spray Hand Shower
    Lowes Item #: 272101 : Model #: 75525SN
    http://www.deltafaucet.com/bath/details/75525sn.html
    $49.98 USD from Lowes
    http://www.lowes.com/pd_272101-72981-75525SN_0_?productId=3421066&Ntt=delta+shower+5+speed&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Ddelta%2Bshower%2B5%2Bspeed&facetInfo=

    In downstairs hall bathroom, both the sink and shower had significantly diminished pressure. 1 week ago my plumber fixed it (removed the built-up deposits from both) and removed the water saver from the shower head at my request.

    I enjoyed the good water pressure for all of 5 seconds before the shower head neck cracked and water started going everywhere. Decided to just replace the entire thing myself.

    It then occurred to me that replacing it would have been cheaper than trying to fix it.

    >> even if you have a very expensive shower head ... it still seems to be over kill to spend hundreds or thousands on a filter system ...
    >> i dont know your circumstances .... but just trying to clarify your thought process ...

    You drive the key question - what am I trying to accomplish?


    Relative to claimed benefits from water softeners in general:

    - I don't feel a compelling need to make the water "feel" differently or "softer". It feels fine as-is.

    - I don't really care about using less soap when I wash. Maybe I doubt that I'd change my habits...

    In priority order, what I DO care about is:

    - Not having to re-plumb the house due to deposit buildups in the pipes. I believe my plumbing is all PVC, no copper. I'm not sure how much of a problem this is or could be in a 15 yr old house.

    - Taking good care of the dedicated icemaker. Good tasting ice is my guilty pleasure. We use lots of it. I've had 3 icemakers at this house. The first 2 failed much sooner than I expected. Not sure why.

    dead: $1319 for U-Line Echelon CLR2060b Clear Ice Maker (CLR2060) in 2003

    dead: $1479 for U-Line BI-2115B-00 2000 Series 15 Crescent Ice Maker in 2007

    current: $3663 for Hoshizaki nugget-style C-101-BAH-DS including a filter and installation in 2013
    We all *love* the Sonic-type ice from the Hoshizaki (and I do the non-trivial maintenance religiously.) I'd like to keep this icemaker happy and healthy for as long as possible.

    Given that, is the cost and hassle worth it?

  • waterguytexas
    9 years ago

    I don’t know if you have made a decision yet. If not I may be able to help. I am a manufacturer of water treatment
    equipment and have been in the industries for a long time. I can answer any questions you may have. if you still have questions please let me
    know and will chime in. the answers you
    have gotten here kind of make me laugh.

  • biermech
    9 years ago

    Alice, Austin runs their pH high to soften their water. They as soda ash (IIRC) along with the high pH which causes the hardness to "fall" out of the water. It use to be 12. High pH does not corrode pipes. It's low pH that does. Waterguy, I know what you mean by giving a laugh. You stating that an RO can keep up with a dishwasher was the funniest thing I've heard in some time.

  • User
    9 years ago

    High pH corrosion occurs under conditions of low alkalinity in combination with a high conductivity relative to TDS, particularly in the presence of chloride and sulfate. Under those conditions, water is inadequately buffered and is highly susceptible to pH swings after what would otherwise be minor changes in chemistry and/or temperature. This presents potential problems with general etch corrosion and periodically pitting corrosion in copper and pitting corrosion in steel. It is, unfortunately, a little-understood phenomena and tends to plague waters in portions of the Southwest and the Northeastern US.

  • greasetrap
    9 years ago

    I was initially concerned about salt when I first had my softener installed. People from the treatment co. made the point that you'll drink less salt in a day from the water, than you'll get from eating 2 slices of white bread. If you're still concerned about salt though, you can use potassium instead. I tried this for a while, but it became too expensive and switched back to salt after a while. Finally, as Aliceinwonderland mentioned, if you have a RO system for your drinking water, then you're already taking out any salt that the softener puts in.