Yes, both of those clubs allow you to register dogs with no proof of lineage. If your dog looks kind of like the breed you're registering it for, then you can register it with them.

Now, I'm sure someone will come out of the woodwork and say that the AKC is no better, but they do at least have some rules about registering, unlike the ones above. And there's this -- while there are some disreputable breeders in the AKC, there are also MANY reputable breeders that are part of the AKC. There are NO reputable breeders in the NKC or CKC.

bob - what makes them not reputable? What practices do they do that would make them disreputable?

The humane society has a good checklist for knowing if someone is a good breeder here.

My father is a reputable breeder; basically, he breeds to try to improve the breed. He only has a litter once every one or two years. He does genetic testing, and puts a lot of research into determining the best pairing. People who buy from him have to meet very specific and exclusive criteria. The dogs that he sells have spay/neuter contracts. Anyone who gets a dog from him can return it with no questions asked if for some reason they can't keep it - he doesn't want any of his dogs to end up in shelters, because his puppies are basically like his own children. He makes no money off his breeding; it's a hobby for him.

A non reputable breeder:

- does it for the money
- will breed any two dogs together without checking for genetic abnormalities
- will sell to anyone who has the cash
- has many litters per year, usually of many different breeds
- overbreeds the dogs (a female should really only have no more than a few litters in her lifetime; a non-reputable breeder will breed and breed a dog to the end of their useful lifespan)
- if it's a puppy mill, many of the dogs are kept in poor health, and horrendous living conditions

Non-reputable breeders use kennel clubs like the NKC and CKC to make it look like their dogs are "registered" and have papers, because people who don't know much about purebreds think that means something. "Real" registration papers with the AKC don't do anything beyond confirm that your dog, and its parents are considered to be purebred dogs of the registered breed (which is more than you're getting from the NKC and CKC, at least). But that doesn't mean that it's a well-bred dog. Many non-reputable breeders do manage to get their dogs registered with the AKC -- that's why it's super important to do your research and buy a dog from a reputable breeder that does things like my father does. Read that link above to get some more ideas on what to look for in a reputable breeder.

And for the love of god, NEVER buy from a pet store. NO reputable breeder would EVER sell their dogs through a pet store. EVER. Pet stores will try to say that they get their dogs from local breeders -- and I'm sure they do...from local puppy mills and local backyard breeders. But certainly not from reputable breeders.

Well, i just love your dad for that - what breed is it - just curious.......

Thanks for the clarification - ok, i see what you mean - it's a matter of breeding dogs for the art of it.

Don't get me wrong - i get dogs from the shelters - it's the best thing..... but i'm not against breeders unless they aren't caring about the dogs - just want the money like you said.

But it's more complicated than that isn't it? For example, if someone wants to breed a dog that is not AKC registerable (unrecognized) - then what would they do? I'm NOT doing this - i'm just curious how this works. I guess they could go to whatever "better" registry handles that breed. For example, the American Bulldog.

Again, the registry is not the important thing; there are many breeds that are not AKC registered, but are "real" breeds with a long history (I don't count recent designer mutts to be among them, though). What you should be looking for is all the things in the checklist I mentioned. If the dog breed is recognized by the AKC, but their dogs are registered with the CKC/NKC, that should be a red flag, because that almost always go hand in hand with someone who is not reputable; conversely, just because a dog is registered with the AKC doesn't immediately mean that their breeder is reputable. You gotta look at the other stuff. And if it's a non-recognized breed, well, just use the checklist the same way you would with a recognized breed.

There are also many dogs that ARE recognized breeds that don't bother with AKC registration, because they are breeding for other purposes (security, hunting, etc.). Again, if that's what you're looking for in a dog, it's more important that you investigate the breeder thoroughly, as well as the kennel, than focus exclusively on the paperwork.

My father and his wife breed Scottish Deerhounds.

This is a good question, luvdogs. I didn't think to question the type of registry when I bought my kitten. He came with the North American Purebred Cat Registry papers (they register dogs, too). (sigh) That should have been a red flag for me. I knew absolutely nothing about buying a cat - they usually show up for free at the door.

I don't think you are safe no matter what papers they come with, you really have to research the actually breeder. Then, research them again! But I would most definitely steer clear of a breeder that wasn't using a standard registry. That may very well be why you find your dog a poor quality specimen.

One difference between TICA and the NAPCR I found is that TICA will intervene somewhat when you have ethical disputes. They can also suspend a breeder. So, if a registry is in question, you can compare their policies.

You wouldn't believe the "pedigree" I got back from NAPCR. There was absolutely no way to verify the lineage of the starting cats and only 3 generations listed. It's supposed to be illegal to sell the cat (Bengal) in NY without a 5 generation pedigree. I even called the registry for more information and they could give me nothing more than what was made up on the paper.

I learned my lesson the hard way. Glad you brought this up for others!

Thanks riv, i can tell you know a lot about purebred dogs. I know that because many people would not know that there are VERY reputable breeders out there who purposely choose NOT to go AKC. For example, the GSD/Malinois breeders who breed for schutzhund and other protection sports and who may be european in lineage. I was in a schutzhund club where the "president" hated AKC but still felt she had to register with them. Interesting.

I remembered too that i bought a pug once that was CKC and she too was kinda odd looking for a purebred pug - some rude person even questioned if she was purebred.

Also, very good point about if the breed is AKC - recognized but the dog is under a different registry - that that is a red flag.

Didn't the Scottish Deer win BIS last year at West?

kittens - thanks for the input with cats too. Very good practical example of the difference in registries - that's what i was looking for.

See, Bengals aren't recognized by CFA are they? So TICA is where you have to go. But did your cat turn out to be of the "standard for the breed?" or is she like my dog where she's just a poorer quality though still is recognized visually as the breed she is? The deviations from the preferred standard would probably be more difficult to see in a cat but now that you know more, what do you think of your cats' "conformation."?? And Bengalish temperament?

Also, if you paid less than a TICA and you're not showing her - then i think that's ok - what do you think?

No, the CFA doesn't recognize the Bengal any more (they used to years ago). TICA is the recognized registry. You can't just look at the TICA breeders list to select a breeder. I would use that as a starting point and then research the particular breeder and verify credentials. This one had listed affiliations with TICA, CFA, and the International Cat Association also (none of which turned out to be true)! So when I got this 'registration' paper, I really didn't think much of it.

You can absolutely tell the difference visually between a really well breed Bengal and one that isn't. They are easily identifiable no matter what quality. There is a listing of conformity that the breeders are supposed to try to keep improving on. (They have spots or a marbled pattern so that clues you in right away). Conformity in appearance doesn't always mean healthy, though. They all carry the same personality traits and I was more concerned with personality and availability. There's good reasons to sit on a waiting list :)

Is your dog healthy? Even if you had a breeder-quality looking AKC dog that doesn't mean you've gotten a good dog. You have to look up the hereditary problems associated with your breed (Bengals it's heart issues). Each breed has something different. That's where you have to research your breeder in depth. They should be screening the breeding parents for these conditions and removing them from their breeding program at the first sign of a problem. Don't be afraid to call a few breeders and interview them. The breeder should care enough about their pups to interview and be selective about you, too! Don't take offense to this; if they don't care enough about where their pups go, they probably aren't caring for their health before you take it home.

I didn't buy a cheap pet. What I didn't know was the price I paid was supposed to be going to supporting all of the very expensive health screening.

The registration companies are just that; they are running a business charging you xxx amount of money for a piece of paper. Take a look from time to time on the AKC's position on puppy mill legislation. It's a catch-22 that's probably why the president you mentioned hated AKC. Consumers need some kind of starting point but they can't get hung up on the reliability of the actual dog by the registry letters. You've got to make sure it's health screened. It's the odd-ball registries you really have to question and you could ask the breeder why they aren't with a particular registry. In the cat world, they can buy an unaltered cat (some don't early spay/neuter) without breeding rights and start breeding it under these odd-ball companies.

The average pet consumer has no need to send their money in to support these companies. (You just get back a paper that sits in your files). The sire/dam info is already on your form from the breeder. I don't think many do much with this information so why spend the money? Better spent on a micro-chip. If you need to use the information or showing then go ahead with the process. For instance, the Bengals are prevalent in HCM (heart issues) and the breeders are starting to publish what lines are carrying the disease. It would be nice to be able to go back to your pedigree chain for reference.

The dog registries you mention are the province of the wholesale pet industry, aka puppymills. About 10 years ago their parent organization, the Missouri Pet Industry I think they call themselves, held a big pow wow in response to AKC's new rule that frequently used sires must be DNA tested. They advised their members to boycott AKC (not that the AKC lamented the loss) and to go instead with these independent fly-by-night registries.

As one who used to have a pedigree research business, I saw the numbers of Shetland sheepdog (one of the breeds popularly bred in puppymills) registrations in the AKC studbooks fall by about 2/3rds following this proclamation. Now it is rare to see a pet shop puppy sold with an AKC registration.

Also do not confuse Continental Kennel Club with the well respected Canadian Kennel Club. Both registries use the initials CKC.

There are other registries which are neither the primary domain of show breeders nor the wholesale pet industry. Working dogs have some of their own legitimate and separate registries. Border collies have one or maybe two such registries going back many years. Also there is another registry, the United Kennel Club (UKC) similar to the AKC and nearly as old, but designed for amateur dog owners who compete at a different level than the AKC. This registry holds their own shows and also agility events. They will register a dog without verifiable parentage, based on the dog's appearance I believe.

well, this thread is getting complicated but i definitely have a better idea of these registries.

Yes, i know that getting an AKC dog is not a testament to the health of the dog - it's more about conformation really. That's why i get dogs from shelters. I have a couple of expensive AKC purebreds (both of which are very healthy) but see no reason to buy from breeders anymore unless you're showing in some aspect.

Well, this little english bulldog i got had an expensive mechanical problem that we paid to fix. Not a disease or a debilitating problem - but an inverted tail which is one of those issues you talk about with each breed. This happens in the english bulldog. Other than that she seems to be healthy so far.

The people that had her let her get to almost double her ideal weight and i am working to get her down to about 30 pounds. So far i've dropped her 10 pounds and she's looking great. Excess weight is just a terrible problem - she does not have the good bone structure to support it.

AKC is about conformation and a traceable lineage, not about health, as you mention. There are AKC breeders who are conscientious about breeding genetic problems out of their dogs, and others who are not so conscientious.

Dogs of mixed heritage from a shelter may also have health problems or not. It's a toss of the dice.

However, papers from the Continental Kennel Club, and the other "registries" used by members of the Missouri Pet Breeders Association and similar organizations, guarantee that a dog originated from a pet wholesaler, ie puppymiller. Such a "registration" is pretty much a negative health endorsement.

I happen to be involved in Cardigan and Pembroke Welsh Corgis. Since I am Wrelsh by heritage,(third generation), I have imported my Corgis from Wales. These are incrediably beautiful guys with real personalties. Our red and white is a real red and our tri-color actually talks saying things such as "hello", "yes" and "no". Corgis are always verble. These guys are both Pembrokes. Our late Cardigan, Mumbles, was named after the seaside village of The Mumbles, the home of Catherine Zeta Jones.