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Registered breed of dog might not be

Posted by RyseRyse_2004 (My Page) on
Sun, May 26, 13 at 12:50

We have two Labrador Retrievers who are licensed through AKA and we now know our male can't be 100% lab. We don't care at all but it amazes me that anyone can register a litter as anything and get the papers. It would seem that as long as AKA gets their money, they really don't care.

You have no idea when you see that cute litter of pups who the daddy really was.

Actually, we feel that whatever our dog's lineage is - he has improved because of the mutt DNA. Mixed breeds are usually the best today when there is so much inbreeding.

BTW, we got him when he was 10 mos. old on Craig's List and the lady claimed she paid $650 for him. Yikes!!! Anyway, his papers were legit and he is the best dog we have ever had.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Registered breed of dog might not be

I don't know anything about the AKA, but I doubt if it would be possible to register a litter with the AKC that wasn't what it claimed to be.

Laurie


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RE: Registered breed of dog might not be

The primary, and oldest, dog registry in this country is the AKC, American Kennel Club, and anyone cannot certainly not obtain the paperwork on just any dog of any breed from this registry.

Perhaps the AKA that you mention is one of the fly-by-night "registries" that puppymill breeders' dogs and pet store puppies use to provide "paperwork" to make their dogs appear more saleable. In this case, you are correct, paperwork from such an alleged registry is meaningless.

Craig's list is not the best place from which to adopt a dog. If you were, in fact, looking for a mixed breed dog, a shelter or rescue would have been a better place to "shop." It is possible that an unscrupulous person could offer a legitimate AKC certificate for another dog to you, alleging it was issued for the pup you purchased. In this case you should report this person to the AKC.

Is the paperwork you received actually from the American Kennel Club? Since you bought this dog as a puppy, the paperwork would most likely be an *application* for registration, not the registration certificate itself. (Unless the person who advertised him on Craig's list already registered him.) Whether application or actual registration certificate, the form should list the correct birthdate of the litter and the breeder's name.

Your application certificate should have a litter number with digit(s) added for your pup. It should have a series of boxes for you to enter the name you have chosen for your pup, and a space for your own information and signature, as well as the breeder's name and signature. You would receive the actual registration certificate from the AKC once you sent in the application with the required fee. It should have the breeder's name, your own name as owner, and your pup's name that you have selected, along with sex, breed, color, date of birth, registration number, and date of registration of your puppy.

If the Craig's list person provided you with a registration certificate, the certificate should list the puppy's registered name, regist. number, birthdate, breed, sex, color, and it should list his/her name as owner, as well as the breeder's name. In this case the owner should have signed the 'change of ownership' section of this form, and your name and signature should also have been entered. Then you would send the form to the AKC with required fee and receive a new registration form with your own name listed as owner.

In my lifetime I have purchased and registered 4 collies and two shelties with AKC in my lifetime, as well as adopting an older mixed breed dog from a rescue group. Also I used to have a home business researching collie and sheltie pedigrees from AKC studbooks. So this is familiar territory to me. I think it is deplorable that these fake registries have sprung up in recent years to service the commercial pet shop industry, but that's a subject for a whole other dissertation/rant.

In any case, I'm happy that your new dog has worked out well for you. This info might be useful for you to determine the legitimacy of your current dog's registration and ancestry, and perhaps useful in the future to know what the protocol is, and what legitimate paperwork on an AKC dog should look like, should you someday opt to purchase another registered puppy.

This post was edited by spedigrees on Sun, May 26, 13 at 15:19


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RE: Registered breed of dog might not be

Many "breeders", backyard breeders, & puppy mills claim that puppies are part of a purebred litter when they're no such thing.

Nobody from the registries comes out to inspect the litter or check on the accuracy of the reporting of parentage.

I think you could probably register a litter of hamsters with AKC.


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RE: Registered breed of dog might not be

Sorry, I meant the AKC. No, they just take your word for the parentage as long as you have papers for both the male and the female. I know this - I once had a litter of 15 lab puppies and had the litter registered before selling them. The female could have been paired to any number of dogs - she wasn't but the AKC certainly didn't know that.

The AKC doesn't do any testing or on-site visits. Both our dogs have been neutered/spayed and we didn't care at all that they were registered because we weren't going to allow them to reproduce. Over the years I have seen many dogs that were obviously not what the owners thought they were.


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RE: Registered breed of dog might not be

Sylvia is correct.

"Is the paperwork you received actually from the American Kennel Club? Since you bought this dog as a puppy, the paperwork should be an *application* for registration, not the registration certificate itself. It should list the correct birthdate of the litter and your application certificate should have a litter number with digit(s) added for your pup. It should have a series of boxes for you to enter the name you have chosen for your pup, and a space for your own information and signature. You would receive the actual registration certificate from the AKC once you sent in the application with the required fee. It should have the breeder's name, your own name as owner, and your pup's name that you have selected, along with sex, date of birth and date of registration of your puppy"'

We did the above and have his certificate.


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RE: Registered breed of dog might not be

----Nobody from the registries comes out to inspect the litter or check on the accuracy of the reporting of parentage. -----

This is not true. Let me tell you a little story. There were two sheltie breeders who co-owned some dogs back in the 1970s. A falling out occurred between the two women, and one of the two refused to allow the other breeding privileges from the dogs in her charge. AKC rules required that both co-owners sign for litters registered under the co-ownership, so one of these women invented similar names for existing dogs, using unused registration applications that were a product of fictitious litters. For instance: Horizon White Ice became Banchory White Iceing and Banchory Nightingale was re-registered as Banchory Turtle Dove, and so on. The AKC discovered this and, because this woman was a member of AKC and had breeding privileges with AKC, AKC was within their rights to search her home unannounced. They discovered numerous extra blue slips (registration applications) at her home and they rescinded her AKC membership, stripped her of breeding and showing privileges, charged her with fraud, and subsequently published changes to correct the fraudulent re-registrations. I used to keep a copy of these name changes on my desk to be sure I got it right when researching sheltie pedigrees with these dogs in their ancestry. So my point here is that if falsification is brought to the attention of the AKC, they most certainly have the legal authority to investigate, and will do so.

One might be able to falsify a litter, but, in order to do this, one must own at least one of the parent dogs and the correct paperwork would have had to have been submitted by the owner of the other parent dog. One would have to fictionalize a litter between the labs in order to obtain AKC paperwork. Yes, I suppose one could own two purebred labs, and falsify a litter of mixed breed pups, using paperwork from their purebred Labrador retrievers, but really why would any breeder risk their reputations and AKC privileges by doing this? There would be nothing to gain by marketing mixed breed puppies as purebreds, and all to lose. One cannot just pick up extra registration applications at Petco. You have to be the registered owner of the parent dogs and you have to have the paperwork to prove it.

There is also the possibility of an honest mistake, whereby a breeder's female, already bred to its intended mate, might get loose and be bred again to a mixed or other breed without the owner knowing, before being recaptured. This could result in pups of two different fathers in the same litter, and it might not always be able to discern this when they were small puppies.

What exactly makes you believe that your lab is not a purebred lab? Have you had him dna-ed? Does he show very obvious signs of being of impure breeding?


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RE: Registered breed of dog might not be

--------Many "breeders", backyard breeders, & puppy mills claim that puppies are part of a purebred litter when they're no such thing.
Nobody from the registries comes out to inspect the litter or check on the accuracy of the reporting of parentage.-----

Almost no puppymill/pet shop puppies are registered with AKC today.

AKC has a "frequently used sire" rule which requires dna profiling of any stud dog which is used for breeding a certain amount of times. When this ruling went into effect in the 1990s, the Missouri Pet Breeders Assoc (the parent organization of the wholesale puppy breeding industry) had a big pow wow, and they advised their members to halt business with the American Kennel Club and register their dogs instead with the "fake registries."

The wholesale pet industry, aka puppymill/petshop industry objected so vehemently to the frequently used sire dna requirement ostensibly because of the cost (AKC charges for this service). However the real reason is that this testing would have revealed that the breedings were not between the dogs the breeders claimed, and the dogs they claimed as purebreds were likely not. Their AKC privileges would have been suspended, fines levied, and so on.

Around the time that this happened I saw the numbers of shelties registered in any given month fall by 2/3rds in the studbooks. I'm sure all the other small breeds, popular in pet stores, fell by the same percentages or more. AKC has little to do with pet shop puppies anymore. Pet shop/puppymill pups are registered with organizations such as the "Continental Kennel Club" or similar fake registries. For instance the CKC (and by this I do NOT mean the Canadian Kennel Club, Canada's version of the AKC) requirements for registration state the following: If you have no proof that your dog is a purebred, no papers on him, you can "register" him with the signature of two witnesses (of your own choosing!) on the "registration" application form!

And so Sylvia, you can be certain that the phoney organizations that register pet shop/puppymill puppies will definitely not be investigating the authenticity of these animals' heritage. However these organizations are NOT the American Kennel Club.


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RE: Registered breed of dog might not be

I am sure there are lots and lots of 'honest mistakes'. In our case, we bought our dog from a lady who had a new baby and was going through a divorce. (the dog was 10 mos. old -- she had to know she was going to have a baby!) She bought the pup from who she said was a very reputable breeder in WS for $650. A crazy amount for any dog IMHO! We loved him on sight and our lab did also. We live out in the boonies and wanted her to have a friend to run the woods with.

We wanted another lab but really didn't care if it was registered - but she had the 'litter paper' which she had never sent in so we registered him with our own name and one for him. We went through Craig's list because we wanted to see for ourselves the situation the pup was living in. We realized it wasn't ideal because of the stress of discontent in the family but our other dog loved him on sight and we did to.

He is 95# (not at all overweight) and has a longish coat. That is our only clue that he isn't pure bred. Again - who cares! I wouldn't spend money on some DNA kit when we wouldn't love him any more or less.


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RE: Registered breed of dog might not be

--- We went through Craig's list because we wanted to see for ourselves the situation the pup was living in.---

Any reputable breeder will show you the puppies, their dam, and sire if he is on the premises, and the living situation in which they are being raised. It is likely to be a far healthier situation than the distracted and overwhelmed Craig's list lady. Just for future reference.

The average weight range of a male Labrador retriever is 65 to 80 pounds, but individuals can be larger or smaller. From your description, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that your dog is not purebred. The disorganized woman you bought the puppy from did not breed him, so there is no reason to believe that your dog's breeder was lax or dishonest, or that her paperwork was not in order.

$650 is not a lot of money to pay for a purebred puppy. A reputable breeder typically has spent far more than this on veterinary and other expenses raising a litter. Usually the purchase price of any animal is the least expense an owner will incur during the lifetime of a dog or other animal.


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RE: Registered breed of dog might not be

Papers are only as good as the people who fill them out. If you must buy a dog buy it from a show breeder and not a BYB or a mill. That way at least you know there is a good reputation behind the papers.


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RE: Registered breed of dog might not be

"...the phoney organizations that register pet shop/puppymill puppies will definitely not be investigating the authenticity of these animals' heritage. However these organizations are NOT the American Kennel Club."
Oh, yes, 'they' are.

Go to craigslist, or to any listing of puppies for sale, & type "AKC" in the search box.


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RE: Registered breed of dog might not be

Exactly right Sylvia. The AKC does not give a hoot whether a breeding program is a good one or not. Or whether dogs are kept in acceptable conditions or not. All they care about for the average dog is that they got their $.

To the OP, a dog can be a 'pure bred' dog and be so poorly bred that they look nothing like the breed they are supposed to represent. Unfortunately BYBs don't know enough about breeding dogs to the standard and puppymillers know that the average buyer doesn't know the difference between a well bred dog and a poorly bred dog so there are more and more dogs who technically are pure bred and registered but who are not to the breed standard. It's unfortunate for the people who are duped into paying $600 for a dog because they are 'pure bred' and 'registered'. It's even more unfortunate for the dogs though because when they aren't being bred to the standard the breeders are also most likely conducting the needed health and soundness tests on their dogs either, resulting in dogs who will be more likely to develop health issues common to a particular breed.


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RE: Registered breed of dog might not be

Many unfortunate dogs and puppies registered with AKC can be found on Craig's List. Craig's List does not breed dogs, nor do those who advertise an AKC pup on Craig's List. All of these dogs came from a litter bred by an AKC breeder, and somehow ended up in the hands of an irresponsible owner, because no responsible owner would re-home a dog via Craig's List.

The AKC is a registry and it is not their job to create or evaluate breeding programs. The parent clubs of each of the 220+ AKC breeds are responsible for writing and maintaining the breed standards, and individual AKC breeders are responsible for their breeding programs and genetic testing.

AKC's responsibilities do extend to the conditions in which dogs registered with them are kept. Many of the highly publicized busts of puppymills have occurred as results of investigations by the AKC. Typically PETA, HSUS, and other animal rights groups expropriate the media spotlight, but it has often been AKC who began investigations and legal proceedings. This is yet another reason why few, if any, puppymills today register their dogs with AKC. If you don't believe me, go into any pet store and ask to see the paperwork. You will find their puppies are registered with a bogus registry such as Continental Kennel Club or American Purebred Registry.


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RE: Registered breed of dog might not be

RyseRyse

It does seem crazy that sellers can get $650 + for popular breeds or even "designer" breeds. But I suspect the cost for well bred dogs is even more expensive, at least up front. The pet industry sells cute, adorable fuzz balls and instant gratification. By the time health issues crop up the shop is out of business. I think some of them use so called "pet" registries to reassure buyers that they are getting some value for the high cost.

The happy thing in this thread is that OP does love their new dog, pure bred or not.


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RE: Registered breed of dog might not be

Actually, these are the only pure bred dogs we have ever owned though we have had dogs all throughout our lives (in our 70's). We always chose mixed breeds because our vet always recommended them.

The last mix we had was mostly lab and she was the love of our lives for 16 years. So a few years after she passed, we decided to get another dog -- chose a lab. Then, got the 'boy' shortly after thinking she needed a friend to run the property with. That's the story.


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RE: Registered breed of dog might not be

First of all, people lie all the time on CL about how much they paid for a dog, whether it is registered, and even what breed it is.
Second of all there is a booming biz on CL selling registrations, mostly for pit bulls but for other dogs too.

'Nobody from the registries comes out to inspect the litter or check on the accuracy of the reporting of parentage'

Any kind of inspection happens so rarely that it is not much of a deterrent for the registration hanky panky that goes on.


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RE: Registered breed of dog might not be

Do you have a link to one of these Craig's List adverts offering AKC registration papers for sale? I would like to see one of these ads. If such an ad existed, the AKC would be interested as well.


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