My friend never cropped her min pin's ears or tail. Personally I can't see why this type of thing is widely accepted, yet we debate the pros and cons of declawing cats :-)

Can't really compare ear cropping with declawing, though...cropping isn't removing part of the skeleton.

It is still maiming, I guess....purely aesthetic...yuk!

Lisa you're right - it was a Schnauzer, I couldn't think of the breed. I remember last week when I saw the picture before his ears were cropped I thought maybe he was mixed with something else - probably because of the ears now that I think about it.

As far as comparing it to declawing - that at times is done to prevent destructive behavior... I can't see ear cropping preventing anything.

ear docking, tail docking, declawing..........it's all just MEAN!!!!!

No kidding. I don't think people are as aware of ear cropping as tail docking so consequently, there isn't quite the same outcry.

I used to live in Australia, and the practice of tail docking there is for the most part, illegal. I'm so excited to see full tails on dogs who were previously docked, I think they look fantastic. Breeders for the most part HATE it and will come up with all sorts of excuses, but some time ago I stumbled across a comment on a breeder's forum that "...they won't accept our usual excuses of x or y anymore" which was pretty much an admission that it's PURELY COSMETIC.

People showing dogs (and sometimes I wonder how much fun it is for the dogs, a lot of showing owners I've met seemed to have little regard or affection for their animals) would claim they were at a disadvantage showing an undocked dog, although 'officially' they weren't supposed to discriminate - but it does happen. There is no excuse as far as I'm concerned.

I've heard others complain of undocked dogs knocking things over with their tails and I always watch mine if we have candles going, but what if we said we should cut kids' arms off because they knock things over? Not gonna fly.

To people who defend docking, I point out that it's spinal surgery, often performed by the untrained, without anaesthetic. Yuk.

Lambs tails are removed routinely by the "untrained." Ditto for baby pigs. We never thought of it as spinal surgery and used special rubber bands for the lambs tails. Never had any complications and made sure they had all their shots. And there were practical reasons for doing it.
Don't really understand why folks would remove parts of their dogs for looks, though. Think dogs look fine as nature intended.

sorry to sound ignorant, savannarose, but why on earth were lambs and pigs tails cut off????

Pigs are docked only for marketing reasons. When penned together too closely they will bite each other's tails. Many stockmarkets will not accept pigs with their tails. At least this is the way it was several yrs. ago.
Sheep are done for sanitation reasons. Manure will collect on their tails, fly larvae can set in & it's not pleasant. Their tails can be trimmed of wool and manure and briars to prevent this but most farmers don't have the time.
I've seen dairy cows docked recently too which seems pretty sad.

OK I am going to answer this before reading what everyone else said. I see NO reason to have ear cropping done. It is purely cosmetic. I am sure it is painful. I have seen this surgery performed and boy is it bloody. I love dogs how they are from birth, not chopped on.

Also... I adopted a dog that has a docked tail. I dont know why it was docked. But I could almost cry that I cant see her wagging her tail when shes happy. If I look really really close I can see her "nub" wagging. so sad!

Some dogs are born with a docked tail...Aussies for one...some are born with it and most are born without.

If nature does it, that is fine...but aside from that...

we had a hog farm when I was growing up, yes my dad docked the pigs tails (and removed their tusks) as they were born using a pair of what looked like pliars but had a cutting tool in it (dikes? is that right?) the mamas would sometimes chew on their tails and lots of times would not stop there if you get my drift, I think ear cropping and tail docking of dogs is probably a lot more painful, and there is not a good reason for it.

I am not a very religious person but I do believe it is just cruel to hack God given body parts off.

My Rottie had a full tail and everyone would ask me when I was going cut it off. He died with all but his ability to reproduce intact. Have you ever seen a Rottie with a tail? It curls up and over like a Huskie or Akita, it wags happy and goes on the alert along with the ears if they hear something. Or if you said key words like Walk or Treat. His floppy ears would perk up, he would do the doggie turn the head sort sideways and his tail would be at attention. A Rottie tail is a very handsome and a happy thing but good luck seeing one, for some stupid reason humans cut them off.

This has been an interesting thread. I've learned about why tails and ears were docked. I really did'nt know.
Personally would'nt dream of doing such and i would love to see a doberman with a curly tail.
oakleif

I used to work as a vet tech in a small vet hospital that did ear crops routinely for anyone who wanted one. Let me tell you how those poor puppies woke up from anesthetic with parts of their ears missing, huge bandages on their heads, and sticks or props to make them stand up: frightened, confused, bloody, and in a lot of pain. It was no small surgery. It was also very upsetting to me to see those perfect floppy ears on those darling innocent puppies sliced off for the sake of "fashion." That hospital would do anything for a buck, and oh, yes, they did declaws and debarks too. Needless to say, I didn't work for them very long.

I, too, am in the majority here in being against ear cropping and tail docking for cosmetic reasons. But I do want to step up to defend the Vets that will do these procedures. I worked many years for a wonderful vet who did both. His point of view was that at least he did it in a sterile environment with appropiate anesthesia and post surgical pain medications. If he had refused the client would have just moved on until they found someone to do it for them or even worse tried to do it themselves! I don't think it is fair to blame the Doctors who will do these procedures but the clients who demand them. nova

I've always felt it was completely stupid, cruel, and pointless to crop ears and tails. My minpin has his ears and would have a long tail too, if it wasn't already done before I chose him.

I find it surprising that the show dog community still embraces these barbaric practices when they are apparently dog lovers. If they would work to change the standard for breeds that are cropped, it seems as though they could stop it eventually.

In this day and age cropping is mostly purely cosmetic if you are not using the dog for the purpose for which it was bread. Cropping was done to prevent injury or vulnerability to the working dog. Today it is about continuing tradition and personal preference rather than need.

That said, I crop my Dobermans because I like personally like the traditional look. Ive seen the procedure done and IÂve seen the re-cooperation period on my dogs. There was no sign of pain, no change in personality and no sensitivity. DoesnÂt even phase them. Yes they had discomfort/irritation initially dealing with an unnatural thingy taped on their ears and tried to shake the damn thing off, but adjusted within a day of having it there.

Deb 18, that is a good point made about a good vet doing the procedure at least in a sterile and caring environment.
I am wondering, though, if enough of the vets refused to do the procedure, if that wouldn't make some people stop and think about why. The local vets where I live banded together and spoke out on a cruel practice that was tradition at our county fair, at least most of them did.
It really made an impression and soon after, the practice was stopped. It made me look at the vets that took that position and gain a new respect for them. It probably wasn't easy to do, and they probably made some enemies.
I don't know if people would go so far as to do it themselves, if they want the "look" I would think they would be willing to pay a bit and be picky about having it done right. Why else do it?
I do have to say that the puppies that I saw recovering from it DID appear to be in a lot of pain and confusion.

Got to agree with cjhwillis, none of the Dobes we have had cropped appeared to have any discomfort. I would think that may have something to do with the vets skill and use of pain medications. They came home just as bouncy and playful as they left.

Lisa

Too bad we can't ask the poor dogs who are getting their ears and tails "altered" for the sake of vanity, to see how they feel about it.

Thanks for the explaination on the tail docking. I guess this technique is no longer necessary and should be discouraged despite AKC standards. For goodness sakes they thought it was easier to cut off their tails then just carry around a little piece of paper that says "working dog"?
I wonder if this was before homo erectus developed a brain.

I rescued a min pin several months ago that has cropped ears and tail and I HATE the look! His ears look like little triangles of stiff leather and his poor little tail ends at the end of his spine. I, too, miss seeing his little tail wagging when he's happy. Being a long time owner of three miniature dachshunds, I can attest to the fact that if you keep their ears clean, they won't get infections.

Ear cropping and tail docking is for fashion. Personally, I think a natural ear looks much better on a Dobe or any other dog and wish cropping/docking was illegal in the USA as it is in many other countries.

Cat declawing is mutilation for owner convenience and also should be outlawed in the USA as it is in the rest of the world.

I reckon if dogs could talk, some would prefer their appendages to be left alone, some would want their ears cropped. Kinda like some women want breast implants and some are fine the way they came!. Some breeds, if they are worked are at advantages to have tails docked. An underground working Terrier can have his tail broken in the tunnels, they can be damaged by the quarry, either fox or groundhog; the dew claws on working dogs should be removed to prevent tearing and serious further damage. Diudnt take me long to realize the advantages of short tails and trimmed dewclaws, I am sure the dogs appreciated the trim.
Of course dogs dont talk and wxpress verbal opinions, so,I probably thing the tails should be left intact, funny as that looks on a boxer!

This is my first dog ever with a tail. Doberman, Rotterman and 2 Rottweilers were all docked when I got them. I have to admit I was dissapointed when I went to see the big one at the pound and he had a tail. I know now that was strictly ignorance. I love that tail. More to pet, I get to pull it and play with it.

The little one got half of her ear cropped by a dog in the next kennel. It was bitten and it could not be reattached. She got the stitches out the day I adopted her.

I didn't know Rotties were docked, I thought their tails were naturally bobbed like Aussies and OES.

Very few Aussies are born naturally bob tailed.

I havent read all of the posts, so I apologize if I am repeating

First off let me say that I am not stating whether I am for or against ear cropping. Some things in this world are necessary evils.

I work very closely with our local Doberman rescue. This I can tell you, Dobes that are docked/cropped will be adopted from the shelter within 12-16 hours of being placed. They are VERY sought after. Dobes that are not docked/cropped will sit longer. Natural ears/docked tail will go next and all natural may not go at all.

"Bully Breeds" are very hard to place and are often some of the first dogs put down at the shelter.

While any good breeder will take their dogs back at any time, not all owners will remember or abide by this. Moving states could also prevent this return. And of course not all dogs are bought from responsible breeders. All of this leads to unwanted dogs being taken to the shelter.

With that said, ear cropping is now performed by laser surgery. The dog experiences little to no pain afterwards, if pain is present it can be eliminated with meds.

I do understand that nowadays these alterations are done mostly for aesthetics. But to every negative there is a positive. The positive here is that a unwanted cropped dog will find a home immediately. If my husband & I were to die tomorrow and no family/friends could/would take our 3 I know that Doberman Rescue would have them placed in a great home very quickly! (BTW, my Dobes are from rescue)

So, a small surgery, generally taking under an hour & virtually no post op pain for a guaranteed home, no matter what. We all have to do things to our dogs/children that they may not like for their own good (I.e. vet visits, medicine, etc.) While cropping/docking is not as necessary as the aforementioned it definitely plays a positive role in that dogs life!

Try to open your mind a little & remember to every negative there is a positive.

On the same token, I would not loose sleep if this was outlawed. Then natural would become the standard and perhaps people would choose the Doberman, Dane, Boxer, etc for their personality and not their ears! However, when banned expect a rise in "home jobs." I have seen many of these while working with rescue. They are not pretty and represent the true definitions of the words "Mutilation", "Barbaric" & Maim" While cropping performed by a professional may be for aesthetics, it is definitely not Barbaric.

BTW: Docking is carried out when puppies are tiny. Their eyes are not yet open and long experience indicates that carried out correctly, the procedure causes no pain or discomfort. Indeed, some puppies which are docked while they are asleep, do not even wake up. After docking, puppies will immediately return to their dam to feed, and there is no evidence that development or weight gain is in any way arrested by the docking procedure. Nor does a dog which has been docked as a puppy have any problems with balance or communication.

Again, docking pups at 2-3 days old, BEFORE the nervous system has developed in the tail, causes the dog little to no pain and no lasting health or psychological problems, this is generally accepted now by the scientific community.

As a final thought: Please do not be quick to judge those you see with their cropped/docked dog. They could be rescued

Also, if you are not involved in the working dog world you can really not imagine just how many working dogs are out there. Most Doberman breeders partake in Schutzhund training. If you have a working breed/terrier dog you have not seen them in their full happiness until you have seen them doing what they are instinctually told to do. (I also have a working Jack Russell Terrier)

Best Friends - Rescued Doberman: Harley / Working Jack Russell: Phoebe

All Natural Min Pin (for those Min Pin owners out there!!)

Phoebe Working

I do not know if you are talking about Australian shepards or Australian cattledogs, but neither is born with a bobbed tail, my mother has the cattledogs, raised 1 litter and had the tails bobbed as the mother and fathers are, well she talked to a lady that raises the cattledogs, and she told her the tails are suppose to be there, to help them work cattle, so she left the tails on the next batch, surprise, surprise, she had a hard time giving this litter away! I have to say Casey and Gater look better without the tails, but I would not have them removed just to please eye appeal, wish I had pics of the three (she has one pup left that she could not give away yet) you would see what I am saying, makes them look alot stockier without them, she sold the first litter for 200.00 apiece, can't believe the fact that they have tails makes a difference but it sure does, she just went and had the female fixed, said she was not going to continue to bob tails just to make people happy. they are awesome dogs, but they do need to 'work' or they get bored and get into trouble.

I was talking about Australian Shepards. I was under the apparantly mistaken, impression that they were born bob tailed.

Another opinion weighing in here....

I have had Dobes almost my entire life. My mom bred and showed (both breed and obed) and I currently have a red Dobie girl that I am working in obed. She is not spayed and if the breeder and I decide she is nice enough, we may still show her in the breed ring. That being said, she does NOT have her ears cropped. I made the decision not to crop because my children were small (3 and 6) when I got this one and I didn't want to take a chance that the kids could accidentally hurt the puppy while her ears were posted and since she is primarily a family member and only a slim chance she will be shown, it wasn't that important to me.

If I were to get another Dobie down the road (when the kids are older and more understanding) I probably would have it cropped because I do think it is more elegant.

The other issue is tail docking. I am a firm believer that tail docking is no big deal. Usually the tail and dew claws are removed at the same time and it is done so soon after birth I do not believe the nervous system is developed enough to allow the puppy to even notice. Do you all feel it is cruel to remove dew claws too? My dogs have a huge field to run in and having a dew claw ripped off a leg is not something I would want to have happen to any of my dogs.

And just to finish my thoughts.... how many of you that find docking/cropping have sons, brothers or husbands that are circumsized?

Alexa

BTW - here is my little girl - not a great shot, but it does show her floppy ears.

{{gwi:2006872}}

I agree with having the dew claws removed because they have a huge tendency to get caught on things, and that is painful, when I was a little girl my mom got me a daschund, the breeder was suppose to have the dew claws removed, but had left one, two years down the road she got it ripped off in my afghan,it bled quite a bit and she hurt for 2 weeks (or else she just wanted alot of sympathy)

Can I ask...what makes it look "more elegant"????

I'm not the one who said they look more elegant, but a simple answer to a simple question:

Personal Prefrence!

Floppy ears look more like a hound dog, whereas cropped have a clean, streamlined look. Perhaps a better word is "refined."

I think the difference between ear cropping and tail docking and the other procedures mentioned is there are medical reasons for deciding to do the others. Of course, these reasons are debatable, but they still exist.

The issue of a dog being more adoptable if he's cropped and docked that someone mentioned above seems like a legitimate reason to me. I had never considered that and after all, we have no control over what happens to our pets if we were to die. You can't just assume your friends and relatives will be able to take your dog.

el¡Ee¡Egant /ˈɛlɪgənt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[el-i-guhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

¡Vadjective 1. tastefully fine or luxurious in dress, style, design, etc.: elegant furnishings.
2. gracefully refined and dignified, as in tastes, habits, or literary style: an elegant young gentleman; an elegant prosodist.
3. graceful in form or movement: an elegant wave of the hand.
4. appropriate to refined taste: a man devoted to elegant pursuits.
5. excellent; fine; superior: an absolutely elegant wine.
6. (of scientific, technical, or mathematical theories, solutions, etc.) gracefully concise and simple; admirably succinct.
**********************************************************

Yes, I find Dobies with cropped ears to be more elegant. As The Adams points out, floppy ears do look houndlike.

Maybe no one responded to my final question because of the many typos. I will present it again in an edited form and hopefully I will get a response....

How many of you find docking/cropping offensive and have sons, brothers or husbands that are circumsised? To my knowledge, there is absolutely no medical reason whatsoever for circumcision and yet it continues...

Alexa

Alexa,

I actually did respond to that question directly above your post. Circumcision has been controversial, but there is a recent study that was just reported about on the news last week that showed uncircumcised men were more likely to contract STD's.

The practice remains controversial, but I can see why some people make the decision to do it based on medical reasons. When each of my sons were born, I reviewed the current information that was available and discussed it with my pediatrician and obstetrician.

This resulted in "differences" between them because of the constantly changing medical opinion and the wide spacing of my children, but the decisions were still based on medical reasons. It was never an attempt to make them look more "elegant" :)

well, yes my hubby is circumcised........but I don't think his mom had it done so he would be "more elegant"

Rita

I don't think cropped ears on Dobes or any other dog look more elegant. I prefer uncropped ears. I think Dobes are gorgeous. They are one of my favorite breeds of dog.

As for DH, he is circumcised and I wish he wasn't for reasons that are probably not appropriate to discuss on this board.

I don't have children but if I would have had a son I would have been likely to NOT circumcise.

I don't have kids either but I would have them circumcised. I've known two men (not intimately) :-) who had to have it done as adults. OUCH!! They both wished it would have been done while they were babies.

Back on topic. I have a bit of a problem with ear cropping but not enough to go on a rant against it.
Tail docking and dew claw removal is over in a flash and done shortly after birth. 5 days old is too late IMO. 2 days old is better. Even those against tail docking, it seems you could still be for dewclaw removal at that age. It's just a little snip of clippers and no danger of them being ripped off in the future and the need for surgery. They serve no purpose and some dogs don't have them to begin with.

Being a mutt person myself, I cannot understand the whole "elegant" or other reasons for changing the natural appearance of the dogs. I like all dogs with floppy ears and have seen enough dogs running and playing and using their tails as a rudder to help with a quick turn or a quick stop that I have no idea why removing it would be an improvement.

Does Phoebe work in pest control or search and rescue? I am still not sure why a tail is a bad thing - unless she does come in contact with rodents who might bite it. If she simply competes in digger-dog type contests, I wonder how many rodents are in the tunnels that dozens of dogs have passed through?

I understand that certain breeds have traditionally been surgically altered for looks, and have I admired many dogs who I had no idea were not naturally born that way. I was very surprised to learn that the Briard's ears are cropped, for instance. I find myself searching the web when I learn something like that, looking for a picture of the "natural" look for the dog, and am never disappointed. The un-cropped dog looks different, but always more like a real dog.

Since tails in animals have an actual use...I really can't fathom why people would want to have them cut off.

Truth be told, Phoebe is what is known as an "Earth Worker." In her mind she is working, hunting fox, racoons, etc. as she was breed to do. At the end of the tunnel (although sometimes in a tree) she will find a "bait" animal sprayed with pheromones that let her know she has found her catch. She retrives and brings it back. Thus protecting the "farm" from lethal creatures.

Jack Russells are serious hunting dogs, when brought to suburban life they must be given jobs. It is not fair to take a dog of this intelligence and drive and make it a "lap dog."

The JR is bred to have the courage to follow a fox to ground and stay with it until the quarry bolts, is dug to, or the dog is called out; they are intended to bay (bark) at their quarry, not to kill. Many a Jack Russell has been known to stay in an active earth for days, even weeks, without food or water because of the strong instinct bred into them to stay with their quarry.

She is also being trained to do what only a few special canines can. Low bloodsugar detection for diabetics. My DH suffers from type 1 diabetes. We have a family member who is a diabetic educator and noticed how Phoebe responded to DH's low bloodsugar and said she would be a great candidate for this training. Unfortunatly, dogs cannot be trained to detect low bloodsugar. Certain dogs (no special breed) can pick up on the change in said person when they are experiencing a low BS. The dog can then be trained to respond to that! Pretty neat!

Tail docking is a long established animal management practice based upon injury prevention and health enhancement. Working terriers, especially those bred to go to ground have had their tails docked for centuries, as hunters believe a terrier with a docked tail can work better in a confined space with less of a chance of tail injury.

Experience has shown docked puppies experience no adverse effects and that the opposition to docking is not based on science and considered reason.

Why else is docking performed?

For Hygeine. Long haired, thick coated breeds like the Yorkshire Terrier and Old English Sheepdog are docked to avoid the hair around the base of the tail becoming fouled by faeces. Even with constant grooming and washing, such fouling is unpleasant. If allowed to get out of hand, it can lead to severe problems of hygiene, or even flystrike and subsequent infestation by maggots. Hygiene problems can be greatly reduced or eliminated altogether by docking. If you can gurantee that you would keep your dog clean, not every one can. Therefore the breeder chooses to dock (when the nervous system is not fully developed & little to no pain is caused to the dog) to help ensure the well being of the pups after they have been placed in other homes.

To maintain breed standards... Breed standards are not for purely aesthetic reasons. Breeds which have been docked over many generations have been selected for specific qualities of build and conformation, but not for tail length, shape or carriage. If left undocked, it is unlikely that the best dogs would carry good tails. In seeking to maintain the quality of the breeds, breeders would therefore be left with a diminished number of suitable sires and dams. The gene pool would be reduced, greatly increasing the risk of hereditary diseases taking hold. Some breeds could even disappear for ever.

ahughes798: I am interested, what is the purpose for the dogs tail you are speaking of?

Cheers,

Sarah

From what I have observed, a dog will change the rotation of its tail to help them change direction when running, or to help them stop more quickly. If I had paid more attention in Physics class, I could offer a better explanation, but the tail is swung during a run, often in a circular motion. The change in the motion changes the center of gravity and allows a quicker change in direction. The tail is a counterweight to the head and swings the front of the dog into the desired new flightpath. (If you've seen your dogs run like this, they do seem to be flying)

OKay - I think the point I was making sort of got muddied in the posting. I was not suggesting that circumcision makes anything more elegant LOLOLOL!

I am just pointing out that there are many people who make the decision to surgically alter male children for various reasons (religious, tradition, etc) that do not have substantiated medical support.

Dew claw removal certainly does have a medical reason behind it.

Ear cropping, tail docking etc are optional, as is circumcision which is why I think it should be left to the owners (or parents) decision. JMO.

Alexa

I thought (of course I could be wrong here) that circumcision was done to prevent infections? Also something to think about, in this day and time when everything different is criticized, how would a young boy feel in the locker room when they see that they are 'different' from the other boys? We know how children like to pick and tease at others as well.
I let my husband decide on the circumcision of our 2 boys because I figured as a male he would know what was best on this issue.

Nancy in mich, are you suggesting Aussies would be even more awsome while herding if they had a tail?
Then again, maybe you're right. Border collies tend to beat the crap out of them. See, I can have an open mind. Still prefer docked Aussies.

Circumcision was originally done for religious purposes. Also, like female circumcision it is done to reduce sexual pleasure or masturbation.

It has become the norm in the USA because men don't want their sons to be different than they are or fear that they will be teased and also because doctors and hospitals push it (they make money on it ya know). There are cases of them doing it without parental consent.

There is no medical reason to circumcise.

Statements here by American Academy of Pediatrics and other such organizations worldwide, none recommends routine circumcision:
http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/

There are far more uncircumcised men in the world than circumcised. Circumcision is uncommon in Asia, South America, Central America, and most of Europe.

Circumcision rates in the US are falling every year.

Many feel it is mutilation.

LOL, are we debating dogs or humans? Ear Cropping or Circumcision?