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Raising and breeding dogs

Posted by micke (My Page) on
Sun, Nov 5, 06 at 10:07

I am just curious.. I read a thread over on the pets forum where people are advising against a person breeding a rott unleess the are knowledgeable.
Is this because of the breeding problems associated with the rott or is it every breed?
in your opinion should no one breed any dog but go to shelters to get their pets?


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Raising and breeding dogs

pretty tuff to find a good dog at the pounds, maybe a worthy pet, but not a well bred dog for specific uses. There are all too many animal multipliers who are NOT breeders in the business fo selling ill bred and ill kept dogs. Breeders only breed to improve the breed, not make money and should not be held in the same light as the multipliers. Breeders research pedigrees and properly tend their animals. The multipliers exist because no one does their homework befor making a purchase, + many times a backyarder will sell pups for cut rate prices. The ignorant buyer thinks they are getting a good deal while they are really beibg ripped off.


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RE: Raising and breeding dogs

I'm glad you posted this here. I, too, was reading the other thread and came over to post a similar topic.

The answer to your question is that no unknowledgable person should breed any breed of dog, not just rotties. Every breed is predisposed to certain disorders and needs testing to rule those out before breeding. Every breed has certain character traits and temperament ideals that should be exhibited by the breeding pair. The background of the adults needs to be known for generations back before breeding. Breeding should only be done for the betterment of the breed and that can only be done by people who have spent a great deal of time involved with the breed.

The part of the other thread I was most interested in was the issue of shelter dog vs. dog from a professional breeder.

Over my lifetime I've rescued many dogs and cats off street corners and from shelters. I never kept the cats because of allergies, but some of the dogs were with me for years. Some have been great pets and others had difficult issues.

I've also had purebred dogs from professional breeders, and some were great and others had issues to be dealt with. Usually, though, their issues were expected because they were typical of their breed. For example, I've had to deal with marking problems with my male minpin, but this is common with that breed.

In general, I think rescuing a homeless pet is a wonderful thing to do and probably quite often works out well considering that no pet is perfect no matter where or at what age you get them. On the other hand,I see nothing wrong with a person choosing the breed that suits his situation best and going to a reputable breeder to buy a puppy. I've done this with my last three dogs.

As sad as the reality of homeless, healthy animals dying in shelters is, the fault of it IMO is irresponsible people who breed indiscriminantly or who let their unneutered pets run loose. No matter how many people pass up purebred dogs and adopt shelter dogs, until these ignorant people stop the problem will never be solved.

I don't think professional breeders who show their dogs and sell the spayed and neutered pet quality dogs are doing anything wrong. It would be a shame to lose established breeds because it became politically incorrect to breed at all. It's the irresponsible people who need to be dealt with.

I think the other cause of the problem is that people don't realize that dogs require attention and training and when they grow up with behavior problems, they just dump them in shelters.

I think we can all help by educating people the way we all tried to educate the rotti owner in the other thread. We can work to make people feel looked down upon if they breed irresponsibly or let their pets run loose. I think some progress has been made in these areas over the years, although obviously more needs to be done. People also need to be educated about what pet ownership really entails so they don't take on a pet on impulse.

I believe that raising people's awareness will have more impact for a long term solution than adoption will, although, as I said before, I do think if you can find a suitable pet in a shelter you're doing a wonderful thing.


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RE: Raising and breeding dogs

Well said deb18. I just choose my dogs from a long standing relationship with a really great breeder. There is no way I could get the quality dog I get from my breeder from a shelter.

I think its great if you want to adopt a shelter/rescue pet. You have to be committed tho, as I have seen friends and associates do this, not be happy with what they adopted, and the pet goes back into the system. I am just of the opinion that getting a dog is a committment for that pet's entire lifetime from the moment you take over from whomever to the point where you sit stroking your pet's back while your beloved pet goes to his maker. Not many people ever consider the lifetime of dog ownership, they see the cute puppy and nothing else. They don't take into consideration that this puppy may have issues. All puppies do, breeder bred or shelter/rescue. It is the committment that is the real issue.

I am also getting the impression from some posters that they think the only PC way to get a pet is through a shelter and/or rescue and I respectfully disagree.


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RE: Raising and breeding dogs

There are far too many unwanted animals in shelters for people who are unknowledgeable in breeding to be throwing any two animals together for breeding purposes. Breeding is a lot harder than just throwing two dogs in a room together, and then "Look, we have puppies now!" It's hard work, and can be especially dangerous to the dam; why anyone would risk that with their pet, I can't imagine. It isn't cheap, either.

My father and his wife are breeders, as I have mentioned on these forums before. They breed a litter maybe once every year or two. They spend months researching the genetic history of both sire and dam before breeding them together. They have two goals for that -- to improve the breed (mainly for showing purposes), and to ensure healthy animals. There's a reason that their dogs are among the top animals in their breed in the country (and in other countries) -- they are very well-bred, because my dad and his wife put a lot of time and effort into this hobby.

It is not a business for them. They do not make money off of it. They lose money on any puppy that they do sell. Any person who is in breeding for money is not going to have well-bred animals. Any person who doesn't know the breed very well, and who doesn't spend the time and effort that my dad and his wife do probably aren't going to have well-bred animals, either (well-bred here meaning either healthy, and/or improving the breed).

You hear a lot of people talking about pure-breds being unhealthy; Labrador Retrievers with hip dysplasia, other breeds with major behavior disorders, etc. Every breed has its "issues" -- people that are not aware of these issues who just throw any two animals together are quite possibly going to create puppies with such problems. That's why, in my opinion, only knowledgeable breeders should be breeding pure-breds.

As for the wanted/unwanted aspect of it (i.e. "How dare pure-breed breeders bring more animals into the world when there are so many unwanated animals!"), for good breeders, ALL of their puppies are desperately wanted -- the waiting list for their puppies is often very long. It's not their puppies that end up in shelters, and it's not them causing the overpopulation problem (place the blame on the backyard breeders and the puppy mills). Breeders like my dad have a clause that states that if the owner can no longer take care of the animal, he will buy it back. He and his wife stay in regular contact with all of their owners, and receive Christmas cards from about 90% of them every year (with pictures of the dogs). For breeders like my dad, their dogs are like their children -- they only go to the right people. Any pure-breds that you see in shelters most likely came from backyard breeders, or puppy mills.

Would I love for everyone to get shelter animals rather than pure-breds? Sure. I have some ethical issues with my dad's chosen hobby. But I don't think pure-breds should be done away with completely, and towards that end, the only people who should be breeding them are the people that actually know what they're doing.


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these are some very good answers, I definitly agree with the main problem in shelters coming from people not taking the time to neuter/spay their pets then letting them run loose, also everyone has seen the puppy mills where shelters have came in to rescue them, some of the adult dogs not being able to walk or worse.
I have raised Shih Tzus before, and it was not a job to me either, and in fact I did not make money on the pups, I only had 2 litters 1 year apart and had no problem getting homes for the pups, the problem was I wanted to keep all the puppies and it was too hard for me to let them go, I still keep in contact with all 9 of my puppies owners.
thank you guys for some very informative posts.


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Another reason the shelters are running over are the people that go out and buy a particular breed with no thought as to if that breed would be a good fit for their lifestyle. Then when it's not, it's easier to dump the dog at a shelter or after the dog escapes the yard for the 7-8-9th time to not bother looking for it anymore. Let's just get another one. All dogs are not the same and every breed is not suited for every owner. If more people would consider that then the mass producers would soon stop when there is no longer a market for their pups.

Lisa


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RE: Raising and breeding dogs

Good point, Lisa. Many people choose the breed of dog they want at the movie theater. Remember how the demand for dalmations soared after the release of 101 Dalmations? People didn't bother to read up and find out if they were really the best choice for their own situation. They just wanted that cute puppy like the one in the movie.


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RE: Raising and breeding dogs

I like the distinction here between breeder and multiplier! Perhaps I've made negative comments about breeders when I meant mulitipliers. Please forgive me if that is the case.

Lots of good comments here in this thread. I wish we had a way to educate the pubic better before adopting any animal. Around here, obedience classes are pricey....that said the one I took was priceless! Another great thing about breeders is that they are going to interview the people who are potential adopters of their pups.


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Beside the yrs of knowledge and everything else that has been mentioned a "Reputable Breeder" will give as the first/main reason for breeding "they want a pup from the cross for their breeding program". If anyone is breeding without that being the main objective of the litter they shouldn't be breeding the litter. That said at times you could find none of the pups superior to the parents and they may end up not keeping one but they wouldn't repeat the breeding. Gerneally a Rep Breeder has waiting lists for their pups.


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RE: Raising and breeding dogs

Love the distinction, Breeder or Multiplier. Good one.

Far too many multipliers out there. Far too many people motivated by money, not the good of the breed.

Labradoodles and other current fad "breeds" being big examples. $1000 in my newspaper the other day for a Pug/Beagle mix. Similar money for Lab/Goldens, Basset/Pugs, Poodle/Yorkies. With such big money out there, it is hard to blame people for jumping on the bandwagon....Who the heck started these fads? Certainly you can find plenty of mixed breed dogs at shelters!


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Boy! you sure hit on a sore subject with me! These intentional mongrels really tick me off, talk about the polar opposite of a breeder! Just glorified puppy mills is all those kinda people are.
I bred gun dog Beagles, 2-4 litters per year of well bred animals that had potential of being excellent hunters and field trial dogs. Hard to get $150 for pups and $250 for started dogs at times, thats after a $300 stud fee and not selling pups until they were 12 weeks old at the least. Paying $500 for a damned mutt @ 6 weeks is nuts.


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I really understand some people wanting a well bred dog. They have small children at home and need to start with a puppy, they want to compete in confirmation, agility, obedience, hunting trials whatever.

I think some breeders provide pups for these needs. They do health tests, they have the hips and eyes certified, they don't breed every cycle, they have planned litters and buyers.

They don't hook up with the dog down the street because we can make a lot of money. Because I want one just like Fluffy. Because (I've actually heard it) so the children can see a birth! OMG rent a video. It's breeding for greed that really gets me.

My breed of choice is Rottweilers. I have no small children or other pets and I prefer to skip the puppy stage and get adult dogs. That works for me but I realize not everyone can bring an adult Rottweiler into their household.

I've lost two to hip dysplasia and one to probable cancer. Were they poorly bred? It's pretty much irrelevent after they're born. They were great dogs for as long as I got to keep them. I often wondered how the other 10-12 dogs in the litter did.


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labmomma: " It is the committment that is the real issue. " Great statement...

People do not have the sense to understand they must commit to caring for an animal for 12+ years. Animals are a fashion statement to some. A macho accessory to others.

It is a major expense and a hassle to get the animal socialized into your lifestyle and trained the way they need to be, whether you get them from a breed rescue, or a shelter, or a backyard breeder, or a reputable breeding source. As far as I am concerned, unless the animal causes major health issues or safety issues to your family, you are responsible for dealing with it until the end of it's life. (And if you have a life upheaval, you are responsible for finding a good home for it. My gramma once had to adopt a german shepherd that the people just left to run the neighborhood after they got divorced and moved. they couldn't even be bothered to bring it to a shelter.)

And yes, Those "designer mutts" that they have the nerve to charge big bucks for make me angry. Please patronize a real committed breeder of a true breed if you want a good lifelong pet. You will pay as much, maybe less, and get a better quality animal. It is just not an "instant" experience though, you may have to get on a list. Not just take out your credit card and drag the animal home. Some people can't deal with that.

As for rotts, I think they are just not a long lived breed. They are a large breed you know, they just don't live as long as the little ones.

I am going to recommend it again. "Paws to consider", a great book detailing the most popular breed characteristics and how to choose a good dog.


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is a rotts life expectancy really 6-7 years? I have to say I love those dogs, all the ones I have been around have been great, I do not have the space for one right now (hubby and I would be arguing, he wants a white labrador) but that life expectancy scares me. if I am wrong please correct me.


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Rottweiler life span

I lost my first Rottweiler/Doberman at 9. My 2nd Rottweiler at 12 and my 3rd at 13 years old. Third one was a rescue so his age was a guess.

I know I was lucky to have them that long.


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My friend's Rottie died at 10, from cancer. He got him years ago from Germany before they were so popular. He was a fabulous dog.


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Above a poster mentioned people go out and buy the popular, cute or a dog they saw in a movie. True statement but a reputable breeder will weed these people out and not sell to impulsive buyers.


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Am I considered a bad person because I had rather have a pure bred dog of my choice? I do not want a mixed breed, does that make me uncaring?


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Nothing about that in this thread??


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RE: Raising and breeding dogs

I show Shibas but had only one litter of four pups and the two that went to pet homes were spayed first. I also raised and showed Siberians for years. Very good comments here and
I hope wherever and whatever kind you get you are very careful and mindful that it's for life!
Crosses are great to rescue and purebreds are for folks with specific needs. I have always strived for education of all novice pet owners.
Designer dogs & so called Hybrids just seem like expensive crosses to me someone is just making money off of like ShiPoo's etc.
Make sure what you really get into healthwise down the line ($$$), with a well bred purebred at the same cost it just doesn't make sense. I think most folks impulse buy and don't want to wait for the well bred pup or can't pass the scrunity I put them through. I had four pups (2 Show) and a dozen buyers. That's @ $1,000.00 each for pets. I placed two in show homes and had to pick only the best for the two pet girls left. With Shibas it was folks who worked from home and had older kids.

The rest of the folks probably had to go to the pet store or Internet if I couldn't find another breeder with pups locally though. So amy older ones in Rescue but they want a pup.
It's sad because then next year or two our club has to rescue their pet store/puppymill/backyard breeder intact pup/adult when they give it up due to hereditary problems etc or they are breeding puppies at 8 months old, SO sad..........

when will the pool be done mom?

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Liz


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RE: Raising and breeding dogs

I honestly prefer Shih Tzus (as we can only have indoor dogs where we are at) we also have a 2lb miniture long haired chihuahua.. love her, but still prefer the Shih Tzus. if a person wants a purebred, I think they should have a purebred.


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RE: Raising and breeding dogs

This is a really great thread. i like the distinction between breeder and multiplier also.
Almost went into culture shock at paying a thousand dollars for a cross breed. i have a pug/chihuahua mix i rescued.Would'nt sell her for a million dollars. Am also a firm beleiver in spaying and neutering these pets.personally i prefer rescued dogs. But i would hate very much to lose any of the "breed" dogs. I've read that purebred dingos are endangered. So here,s a salute to all dingo breeders and to any one else that keeps a purebred breed going.
oakleif


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RE: Raising and breeding dogs

I am a firm believe in getting the right breed for your personality and lifestyle. Too many people with tiny backyards in suburbia get the hunting style or shepherding dogs because they are "in" and don't exercise them and wonder why the dogs are neurotic chewing maniacs. They are working breeds people you must exercise them if you want to control behavior problems. Or they get rid of the dog because it sheds. Well then why did the person buy a collie? Duh - she should have gotten the poodle and been much happier.

Most households would do much better with a smaller breed of dog. But too many people (men mostly) don't think of the little doggies as "real dogs". My bet if you have the $. get a good dog that comes with a health guarantee from a good reputable breeder. You can get "pet quality" ones that have coat faults (white boxers) or the wrong color nose or other minor infractions that prevent them from being shown if you ask the breeder.

If you don't have a lot of money though, a shelter dog and rescue dogs are great bets but you just have to screen them carefully, esp. if they are adult rescues. And you may have to do lots of work with the adult ones to correct existing problems. But then you also have to housetrain little puppies, so an adult dog could be a better bet for some.

I have personally stayed away from shelter dogs by us because our lifestyle is that we need a dog that is small. And most shelter dogs are labs, pitbulls, and shepherd mixes. Way too high maintenance breeds for me. (Besides the oily coats of those retriever breeds make me sneeze somehow, other dogs are OK though.) Those are the doggies that are in the shelters because they get found as runaways, they are too good at hopping the fences I think.

Good luck all.


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mutts are best, good backyard breeding. hybrid vigor.


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RE: Raising and breeding dogs

interesting article, addresses the topic:
http://www.adoptarescuepet.org/byb.htm
Olya


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RE: Raising and breeding dogs

Micke most larger dogs don't have long life spans. Add to that people that are just having puppies with no thoughts to the gentic health of their dogs and you can get some horribly short life spans. But if you do your research and talk to breeders you will be able to find some where the lifespan of the dog is also a priority in their breeding program. Not sure about Rotties but in Dobes there is a data base you can search where good breeders list their dogs by age at death. That way you can find the ones that are producing the longer lived dogs. Still no promises that your dog will be one but at least you are setting the odds more in your favor.

Lisa


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There is nothing wrong with wanting a purebred dog.

What is wrong is supporting puppy mills/pet shops and irresponsible backyard breeders who are not breeding for quality animals and cause more harm than good to the breed and often are inhumane.


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I've heard people say they couldn't find what they were looking for except in a petstore. To that I would say, you didn't look hard enough. There are good breeders out there if you must have a puppy. There are breed rescue if you want an adult and if you want a mix, you can find one in a shelter. As far as paying good money for a designer mix, that's just dumb and supporting puppy mills and backyard breeders who want to make an easy buck. You can find all kinds of poo or chi (fill in the blank) puppies in shelters.


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I am a disabled person. My dog's are with me 24/7. I know what breeds I like. I am not as knowledgeable as some of you that work and research dog care, temperament, health, etc.etc. I have to rely on the knowledge of others and my research and tried methods over the years. If I ever found a shelter dog that won my heart, yes, I would adopt him. But, that has not happen as of yet. I truly have had doxie's since I was young. They may vary in temperament somewhat, but I have found that there are some things you can count on. I just prefer them. Praise to you shelter moms, without you this situation with unwanted dogs would be alot worse. When the time comes I will think about a shelter dogs. We have a 2 housedog rule. Unless some terrible disease takes our 2 dogs we will have them for many more years. They are only 6 and 5. I really like all your opinions on this subject and it has gotten me to thinking.
This thread is a breath of fresh air. People respecting other people's opinion and preferences. I believe this is what it should be in a discussion.


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Klimkm says--I am a firm believe in getting the right breed for your personality and lifestyle. Too many people with tiny backyards in suburbia get the hunting style or shepherding dogs because they are "in" and don't exercise them and wonder why the dogs are neurotic chewing maniacs. They are working breeds people you must exercise them if you want to control behavior problems. Or they get rid of the dog because it sheds. Well then why did the person buy a collie? Duh - she should have gotten the poodle and been much happier. ************************************************************
I know what you mean. I once got a great dane from someone because she "got too big." Shoot she was even small for a great dane.


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RE: Raising and breeding dogs

About two weeks after I got the Chow that I have now I got a call from the manager at the shelter she came from. They had another one and was I interested. At the time I wasn't because Smokey had made Chow #7. They had gotten another one turned in because, now get this, it was to hairy. Now just how the heck can you not look at a Chow pup and think hmmm that's going to be a furry dog.

Lisa


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A hairy chow? You've got to be kidding. Who'd a thunk it? I don't blame them for turning him in. :-)
7 chows? Oh my goodness. I've fostered a few chow mixes, and they were wonderful. I've gotten a few purebreds into chow rescue too. Their coats are unbelievable. I mean that in a bad way. One was so matted, we couldn't figure out her sex until we got some hair cut away. With 7 oh my! do you shave them down to a lion cut?


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rthummer: I have had long haired dachsies for the last 20 years or so. I am currently down to one, a red long haired. She is currently 15. Most dachshunds have a very long life. I have heard numerous ones living til 16 or 17.

We got our first longhaired dachsie when we lived in the city and I wanted a watchdog because our neighborhood was not great. But we could not have a large dog because of our small apartment.

Then we rescued the second one at 8 years old, she lived until age 16. She had a bad first half of her life, we rectified that and she was the best dog and she loved our kids.

I grew up with a german shorthaired pointer and a border collie. So I was not sure if I would like a little breed. But I love those funny little personalities, they are clowns.

Funny how you get attached to YOUR breed. I think it is because it fits so well with your lifestyle whatever that may be. That is what makes owning a pet enjoyable, it is a companion that should fit your lifestyle. Not an accessory to be cool.

I can't believe people could not find the dog they like except in a petstore, with everything online now, you can get in contact with breeders of most any breeds anywhere now.

Good luck all.


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Beeanne, guess who ever gave that dog up never thunk it. It just never ceases to amaze you does it. Some of the hair brained(no pun intended) reasons people give dogs up. Smokey aka Fuzzbutt is the last one I have out that group but no most of them were never shaved. There was one that had an awful cotton-y coat that I would shave every now and then. She matted at the drop of a hat. For me it's always been sort of a mystery as to why anyone gets a coated dog then has it all shaved off. Guess they aren't as big a gluten for punishment as I am.

Lisa


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There is a reason those chows have their coats isn't there?
someone once told me that shaving a dog like a chow or a huskey, was a bad move as once the hair was removed there was nothing to protect their skin from the sun and it would burn them, aren't those two of the breeds that actually have several layers of 'coat'? My shih-tzu matts up horribly if I don't stay on top of his brushing and I do have to shave his belly area, whats funny is his hair is not as full as most shih tzus, he has a 'thin' coat, but still yet every once in a while I have to cut a matt out of his tail, or somewhere else, just from a afternoon of playing, but I just cannot bring myself to shave him. I have tried all the shampoos that promise "tangle and matt free" that I have been able to find, none of them work! poor guy hates his hour grooming session, and after it's done he runs around the house like his tail is on fire, then he starts picking on the other dog and last he grabs one of his squeak toys and viciously attacks it for about 10 minutes before settling down. oh! and he totally expects me to hand him a treat after he gets it all out of his system, maybe I spoil him a little too much?


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Micke, I use a product called Ice on Ice at work and it helps quit a bit with matting if it hasn't gotten really out of hand yet. I think the web-site I get it on is chrissystems.com
You're right with the double coated breeds the hair does act as insulation and protects them from sun burn. You have to stay on top of it tho and keep it clean and any loose undercoat brushed out. If that stuff starts to pack and then gets wet you can end up with skin problems galore. Not to mention one very stinky dog. Smokey gets a bath and brush out about every 2-3 weeks and it takes about an hour maybe an hour and a half to do a really through job on her.

Lisa


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I paid to have Lion groomed Chow German Sheppard. It is expensive, but we loved him so much. 60 to 80 dollars every two weeks, he had a bath and a complete groom. You have to do it because of the matting, if you can't do it yourself, the dog be prepared to pay. I got compliments all the time on him, but I would see plenty of people walking Chows that were ungroomed, and they looked like hell. I would think those owners didnt really love thier dogs.


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I don't think some people realize how painful those matts can be, if Gizmo gets a matt under his arm and I don't catch it in time it will cause a awful sore, and I mean quick. unless you own a long haired (or wooly:) dog and know about this problem it would be hard to see the little matts starting under the coat, by the time it is noticeable the poor thing would have to be in some aweful pain, I have seen some dogs like this on Animal Cops, seen even a cocker spanial, it looked horrible! they shaved off something equivelent to his actual weight, why people don't understand that is animal cruelety is beyond me. I want my dog to feel good and to look good, and the better he feels the better his attitude. I have been bit by a chow, don't blame him he probuably felt awful with those matts hanging off of him, they had him chained in the front yard with no doghouse, I was going to slip him some water (I was only 9 at the time) and when I went to set the bowl down he snapped at my wrist, had to have 3 stitches, the dog disapeared after that, never did know what happened to him, I felt bad cause I was afraid they hurt him on my behalf, I hope they just found him a home (preferably a better one)


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