If anyone is familiar with the Simpsons, it is somewhat of an extended parallel to the Goofus and Gallent (sp?) section from the children's Highlights magazine.

There is the ignorant (Homer), the careless (Bart), the "stand by your man" or "on the fence" (Marge) and then there is Lisa who is the voice of reason...the one who always sides with what is right and good. The writers have created Lisa to balance each fiasco this family gets themselves into.

To watch the Simpsons is like watching a slice of life...we all know those who make rash and ignorant decisions and we all know those people who are not afraid to stand up for what they know is the right thing to do.

I appreciated that insert of the episode about the dog...I remember that one and I wish that every family had a voice of reason...an advocate for common morality...a Lisa.

deb18 - I can give you my experience with VPI. I have two of my dogs insured through them. One is $20.46 per month, the other is $18.52. I signed both up as puppies. I have the Superior Plan which does not cover office visits, vaccinations, etc. I took this insurance for the emergency coverage, general illness and medication coverage it provides. It's a 90/10 plan. This past April, the 6 month old bloated and torsioned. I don't remember the exact dollar amounts but with the emergency vet, surgery, my vet aftercare, etc. it came to around $2,600.00. Two months later, the 3 year old dog bloated. He did not torsion. A few weeks after his episode, I chose to do a tack as a torsion preventative. I did not know if VPI would pay for the preventative tack.....they did and paid 90% of the bills on both of these dogs. Had I not had the insurance, my out of pocket expense would have been over $5,000.00. I do not have the insurance on my 3rd dog. I thought about getting it when I got the first puppy insured and didn't. Why, I don't know. 5 weeks ago she had a spleen torsion. Very, very serious and we almost lost her. After the emergency vet surgery, she spent 3 days at their clinic and then days at my vet. Again, no insurance on her - this was $3,250.00 out of pocket.

So I think the insurance is worth it. The small amount on my charge card each month is nothing compared to the high costs of certain emergency procedures.

Jan

Jan, I was wondering what breed dogs you have. I have a friend with a standard poodle who also had the torsion and then the tack - all were covered under pet insurance as well. I am just wondering if one breed or another is more susceptible to this?

Thanks.

labmomma,

I have Great Danes. And have been involved with breeding and showing since 1963. Yes, some breeds are more prone to bloat and so are some bloodlines within the breeds. It is something to worry about with most of the large and giant breed dogs, setters, bloodhounds, greyhounds, mastiffs, shephards, etc. But it does happen in smaller breeds, too.

Jan

Thanks Jan. I am glad your dogs survived. I know of a few over the last 20 years that haven't. My father's hunting buddy had a hunting dog that had a torsion while they were in the middle of no where while bow hunting. Also, the owner didn't realize what was going on until it was too late....
Thanks for bringing light to this problem.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING!

"I appreciated that insert of the episode about the dog...I remember that one and I wish that every family had a voice of reason...an advocate for common morality...a Lisa."

Thanks Webkat!! I'm glad someone doesn't think I'm "nuts"! You got my point exactly. Sometimes I think people forget that there are human writters behind these cartoons! :-)

Jan - thanks for sharing your experience with VPI.

BTW, yes, if you have a lot of liquid assest then you may not be in need for pet insurance. As far as forgoing financial responsibilities for your pet. Thank you for sharing your story Bill Vincent. Where there is a will there is a way. I would definetly skip paying visa to save my pet. Deffinetly would be willing to put the financial hurt on. My credit will rebound, their life will not.

Again, I believe this is the difference in where your pet falls in your life. Mine are family, I would do for them what I would (theoretically) do for my children. To my dad, it's a diffrent story. To him it's "just a dog".

Labmomma, in reviewing the posts I found something interesting in yours.

"Not so, my nephew is my godson. I would do whatever I could for him as I would do for any of my family. I would also help my neighbor to the best of my ability."

You prove my point in your statment by saying you would do whatever you for your godson and you would help your neighbor to the best of your ability. These seem to be to different conditions. "Whatever your can do" means absolutly anything; laying down your life, mortgaging the hell out of your house, borrowing money you know you can't pay back, working 2-3 jobs, etc., etc. From your comment it doesn't sound like you would do this for your neighbor. (When I use the term neighbor I use it loosely, yes I know the definition. Just in the event your neighbor is your sister!)

Yes the_adams you are correct. I would do less for my neighbor than a family member. I cannot save everyone. I would do for my neighbor what I could reasonably do without sacrificing my family. I would give meals, food, and most importantly, time and support. I don't think what you give to someone is necessarily measured in money spent...

So there are no misunderstandings here's a list of where things are on my "priorities" list:

1. my husband;
2. my child;
3. my family - pets; parents, sisters, brothers, neices, nephews, etc.;
4. my friends, co-workers, people who do things for me;
5. all mankind; and,
6. myself - which is what I am told is probably my worst trait. I usually tend to put myself last regardless of what the doctor, butcher, baker or candlestick maker tell me. That's just me.

At times the order gets moved around depending on circumstance.

"I'm fortunate to have insurance but many people do not."

I did a quick check on the U.S. Census reports. Only about 15% of the US population does NOT have health insurance. This percentage seems to be holding steady. Relatively speaking, many people, infact, DO have health insurance.

Just going by the numbers. Thought you might be interested in knowing.

"I did a quick check on the U.S. Census reports. Only about 15% of the US population does NOT have health insurance. This percentage seems to be holding steady. Relatively speaking, many people, infact, DO have health insurance."

I don't consider 46 million people to be an insignificant number.

I did not say it was insignificant. I merely said, that RELATIVELY speaking, most people, in fact, do have health insurance.

I know we are off topic at this point. But, as I am sure you read above, I am well aquainted with medical expenses. Being self employeed, with a Type 1 Diabetic husband, is interesting to say the least. I support the idea of universal health care and, on my political agenda, health care is number to me.

It seems there is a habit of taking things out of context on this forum. I didn't even imply that it was insignificant. How do you excerpt from, "Relatively speaking, many people, infact, DO have health insurance", that I felt 15% is insignificant?

I was being genuine when I posted this and truly thought you may be interested. When you said "many" there was no way for me to know if you meant 75%, 50%, or 25%. I didn't assume, I just offered some off topic knowledge.

With that out of the way I would like to say it has been a pleasure discussing this topic with you. You seem to weigh both sides of the discussion which is enlightning. I have never felt attacked by you or belittled and I truly appreciate this. We may not be on the same page, but I think we're in the same book ;-)

While you and I are "chit chatting" I would like to bring up one more thought from much earlier on that I have given great thought. You quoted and said:

"You said, 'I though it would go without saying that if a pet is elderly and the quality of life would not be improved that of course it is more humane to put them down. Alas, I guess not much goes without saying.'

There was no way to assume this from your first post."

Actually, there was. I think that in your saying "there was NO WAY" is dealing in absolutes. From a non absolute stand point you could interpret the following:

1) From a medical stand point, there is no life saving surgery for a terminal illness, nor is there a "miracle surgery" to fix old age. So when I am referring to a "life saving surgery" these two could already be ruled out.

2) Also, life saving surgeries that do not actually have the intentions/probability to improve the quality of life are more rare then you would imagine. So, it would not be a far cry for one to assume that I was not speaking of a surgery that would cause and/or perpetuate suffering. (This is, obviously, not as absolute as #1, yet it is not entirely unreasonable to think that others would come to this conclusion)

3) Our (North America) society as a whole widely excepts and embraces the practice of euthanizing suffering pets. If you take this and combine it with #1 one could easily assume that I was not speaking of suffering animals.

People are quick to react, they read something and, instead of reflecting, they respond. We all do it, some less then others, but we all do it.

I would also like to take a moment to thank Jerriellijay, Ritamay, Webkat5, Beeanne & Bill Vincent for their nice comments towards my OP. I know this is debate forum, but it is nice to know it isn't lonely on my side of the fence!

To all who have responded (minus Labmomma and Deb18 - already know your answer :-) could you please let me know if you assumed from my original post that I would advocate prolonging the life of a suffering pet? I am truly interested in knowing and learning if I am totally off base with my above comments!

Thanks, again, everyone for reading and responding!

"It seems there is a habit of taking things out of context on this forum. I didn't even imply that it was insignificant. How do you excerpt from, "Relatively speaking, many people, infact, DO have health insurance", that I felt 15% is insignificant?"

Well, you left out the statement in your prior post that most led me to believe you felt it wasn't significant, which was, "Only about 15% of the US population does NOT have health insurance." The word "only" usually implies that something isn't very important. You would never say, "My dog is only dead" or "I only have $5 million dollars in my checking account.

As to your remark about my statement that, "there was no way to assume that from your post", you are expecting me to deduce an awful lot from your original statement if I was supposed to follow the train of thought you outlined above. And you have to remember that not everyone thinks in the same patterns or draws the same conclusions as everyone else.

the-adams wrote:
This thought is to those who would put a cat down for being incontinent, or who wouldn't pay for a life saving surgery. Instead opting to put your pet down...
But if you tame me, then we shall need each other.
To me, you will be unique in all the world.
To you, I will be unique in all the world...
You will become responsible FOREVER for what you have tamed...

-Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Best wishes to all, thank you for reading.

I wish to add to my previous responses. I think I was on point and NOT attacking you in my first response. If you would read your post, you may see that you are initiating a generalization and/or opinion regarding a pet owner who will not accomodate a peeing cat or euthanize before paying for an expensive surgery.

I have re-read your original post several times and I am still sure that it says the same thing. That is why I am reposting it for you. In your own words you state: to those of you who... Is that not an direct judgment when you then post a quote about responsibility...? I guess I just don't get what you were after if feel you weren't being judgmental and that I didn't understand your post and read more into it? I didn't read more into it, I read it exactly how you posted it.

Please respond to my question as to how much we should put our pets through. You mention a ferret surviving chemo to go on and live a happy life. Have you heard of a 1 or 2 year old dog survive treatment? Who decides what is life-saving surgery. Would you consider having an ACL tear repaired life-saving?

Very interested in your reply.

Thank you.

"The word "only" usually implies that something isn't very important. You would never say, "My dog is only dead" or "I only have $5 million dollars in my checking account."

Your right, "only" was a very poor word to use. Thank you for the insight on my post.

"As to your remark about my statement that, "there was no way to assume that from your post", you are expecting me to deduce an awful lot from your original statement if I was supposed to follow the train of thought you outlined above. And you have to remember that not everyone thinks in the same patterns or draws the same conclusions as everyone else."

Agreed! All I was trying to point out was that you were dealing in absolutes by stating "there was no way". I was merely pointing out that there is "a way" to deduce what I meant. I was not trying to say all should have come to the same conclusion I would, rather that it is a possibility and I feel that you stating there was "no way" is slightly unfair.

Labmomma, you and I may just go in circles forever. :-)

"I think I was on point and NOT attacking you in my first response" --- Please answer this:

1) When you said "Lead YOUR life the way you choose, and the rest of us will lead ours like compassionate responsbile human beings, not beings of superiority." ---Were you not responding to me? If not, then to whom? You are stating that "the rest of us" are compassionate & responsible. Therefore, if the "your" in your statement is referring to me, you were directly impling I am not. Again, if the "your" was not reffering to me, then to whom?

2) When you said: "I think citing episodes Bart Simpson is nuts, JMHO, but whatever. I really don't watch that type of television so I cannot comment, but it seems a little silly to be referring to an episode of The Simpsons." ---A little nuts? How should I take this? As your opnion. You can argue symantics if you like, but the comment was meant to offend. If you disagree, then please tell me: How was this comment benefiting the overall debate and what purpose did it serve?

"...you may see that you are initiating a generalization and/or opinion regarding a pet owner who will not accomodate a peeing cat or euthanize before paying for an expensive surgery." ---I didn't realize I said anything to the contrary.

"to those of you who... Is that not an direct judgment when you then post a quote about responsibility...?" ---Sure it is, I don't think I ever said it wasn't.

What I DID say: "I did not PERSONALLY attack any ONE" I judged a group. What I mean is, I didn't personally respond to a post by another individual and write belittling comments.

When I stated that sarcasm is generally perceived as an attack you procedded by posting the definition of "sarcasm". Yet, when I commmented that I did not say "is defined", I said "is perceived", you had no response.

"I didn't read more into it, I read it exactly how you posted it." ---I feel you read more into my post by assuming I would do anything, at any cost to keep my pet alive without considering my pet into the equation. I don't recall myself "excatly posting this".

"Please respond to my question as to how much we should put our pets through" ---I HAVE!! I will now quote my earlier posts:

"if a pet is elderly and the quality of life would not be improved that of course it is more humane to put them down"

"So to clarify, I do not believe on forcing an animal to live past there age and suffer. I am sorry for the confusion"

"As I noted, above, I was not trying to speak disparigingly of anyone who has to make this more then difficult decision when it is called for. I have had to do it myself. I was speaking to those who would put down an otherwise healthy pet because they did not prepare financially..."

"if you had read all of my posts you would have seen that I was NOT advocating keeping a pet alive in the event they are in pain or the quality of their life has diminished. In this sense I think we are far more humane to our pets then we are to each other! Please go back and review my previous posts and you will see we are on the same page! :-) I have even commented that I have been in this terrieble situation before, more then once actually." --This I have already quoted once before in a direct response to you!

"In closing, I would like to again say that I DO NOT advocate prolonging the suffering of a pet."

If these quotes do not answer your question then I am not sure what you are looking for. Perhaps elaborating on your question would help me out, because at this point I am truly baffled.

"You mention a ferret surviving chemo to go on and live a happy life. Have you heard of a 1 or 2 year old dog survive treatment?" ---I can't comment because I haven't known a dog that has been through chemo. As for my ferret account, this is a "pet" debate forum, not just dog.

"Who decides what is life-saving surgery." ---The vet, if he/she says the pet will die without the surgery then it is life saving.

"Would you consider having an ACL tear repaired life-saving?" ---I do not believe that the prognosis of an ACL tear, in either humans nor pets, is death.

Oh, come on The_Adams....you know you are hiding extra words with in your statements....

I just know you are hiding alternative statements between your other words. :o) I think the reason so many of us understand what you were trying to say is because we read your OP as it was intended. I do believe at times, people see things either how they expect them to be perceived or how they WANT them to be perceived (for whatever reason). It is really too bad....this is the same reason that so many people are falsely accused for crimes they didn't commit. The accuser sees what they want to see...what their mind deduces is the correct answer, not what is reality. So, don't worry about it too much The_Adams...

the_adams

1. The "your" was plural as in a group, not you directly. Directed at all who view the euthanization of a peeing cat or no surgery to save the life of a pet as a "bad pet owner".

2. You are assuming too much. Of course I know there are writers behind the diatribe in the animated shows. I grew up with Disney pictures- you know the old ones like Bambi. I think you are offended for no reason. I don't watch much television and when I do, I want to watch a particular type of television that's why I have cable. The Simpson's and shows like it, don't make on my list simply because I do not have the time. I shouldn't have mentioned the comparison, not thinking it would offend. Not my intent.

Sorry, but I can't read your entire post again...
I will comment on one last item:

Who decides what is life-saving surgery." ---The vet, if he/she says the pet will die without the surgery then it is life saving.

"Would you consider having an ACL tear repaired life-saving?" ---I do not believe that the prognosis of an ACL tear, in either humans nor pets, is death.

I would ask what do you consider life-saving. Can a dog really walk around with that type of injury? No. In my opinion, an injury of that type or early hip dysplasia, injuries that compromise the pet's quality of life deserve to be considered as life-serving situations as well. May not result in death, but what I am questioning is what do you consider life-saving surgery, hit by a car, where do you draw the line, and I am not talking about cancer or terminal illness.

Regardless of the age of the animal, if you are dealing with a disease/illness/problem that can not be treated or helped, for the sake of the animal it is (in my opinion) best to put them down. I did not say life threatening because I feel this is a gray area. Some would choose to do whatever it takes to try and save the animal, others would choose to put the animal down. If it were an old animal, to me it would depend on the mental outlook and previous health of the animal prior to the situation and the long term prognosis for full or partial recovery. Each case is individual. We can't say what we would do in any given situation unless we've experienced it.

Jan

"Agreed! All I was trying to point out was that you were dealing in absolutes by stating "there was no way". I was merely pointing out that there is "a way" to deduce what I meant. I was not trying to say all should have come to the same conclusion I would, rather that it is a possibility and I feel that you stating there was "no way" is slightly unfair."

That's one way to interpret that phrase. However, I simply meant that there was no way to know what was in your mind or heart to glean from your post all that you claimed to have implied later. Not that there was absolutely no way to arrive at the conclusion you later stated. But I guess there was "no way" for you to know what I meant :)

Now I'm done with this because this is no longer about the OP, but is about semantics in writing and I strongly suspect your interest in it is more about honing your debate skills (you mentioned taking debate courses) than the original topic. I enjoy doing that too, but I feel we've more than exhausted this one.

Jan2, thanks for sharing your experience with VPI. It sounds as though it was clearly worth having in your case and deserves a closer look from me.

"Now I'm done with this because this is no longer about the OP, but is about semantics in writing and I strongly suspect your interest in it is more about honing your debate skills (you mentioned taking debate courses) than the original topic. I enjoy doing that too, but I feel we've more than exhausted this one."

My feelings exactly. I was actually logging on to type "My brain is being rotted away by an arguement of symantics which never goes anywhere!"

I normally wouldn't get this deep into it, but with the motorcycle accident we had to drop this semester of classes and restrict our activity. I'm going crazy (as well as my Jack Russel Terrier!) and needed to exercise my brain and release some energy. Actually, I much perfer the scientific/political debate forum as they are very knowledgable on their topic and very concise with their debating. I just happened across this one while in a gardeing forum and thought I would take a look. Saw the one about the cat and was dumbfounded. What about the sacturary option!?!?!

Please don't get me wrong, I do enjoy debating with many of you here. Point is are those who seek out scientific/political debate are INTO debating! LOL!

Labmomma - This is my last post. I'm sorry you did not have time to reread my earlier posts. When you do, you will find the answer to your questions. Just in case, though:

"an injury of that type or early hip dysplasia, injuries that compromise the pet's quality of life deserve to be considered as life-serving situations as well. May not result in death, but what I am questioning is what do you consider life-saving surgery, hit by a car, where do you draw the line, and I am not talking about cancer or terminal illness." ---OMG, stop!! Life saving is if it "SAVES' the pets life, this truly is not confusing. Where do I draw the line? If the pet will continue to suffer or the quality of life is diminished. Labmomma, how many times can I possibly say this? How is this not answering your questions? As I said, I'm not posting again on this topic, so you can have the last word.

Because it was so well said I would like to quote Jan & say I feel the same way too:

"Regardless of the age of the animal, if you are dealing with a disease/illness/problem that can not be treated or helped, for the sake of the animal it is (in my opinion) best to put them down. I did not say life threatening because I feel this is a gray area. Some would choose to do whatever it takes to try and save the animal, others would choose to put the animal down. If it were an old animal, to me it would depend on the mental outlook and previous health of the animal prior to the situation and the long term prognosis for full or partial recovery. Each case is individual. We can't say what we would do in any given situation unless we've experienced it."

While I don't expect everyone to feel the same way as me, my personal feeling is when I look into the eyes of anyone of my pets I see them looking back at me with trust. They trust me with their life. I will do whatever is in my power to protect them...

For those of you who enjoyed the quote above, as noted, it is by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry. Full name is "Count Antoine Jean-Baptiste Marie Roger de Saint-Exupéry and he lived from 1900 - 1944.

The book is tittled "The Little Prince", or untranslated "Le Petit Prince" published in 1943. It is known as a childs story but is heralded as a profound and deeply moving tale.

The Little Prince has been translated into many languages and, to date has sold more than 50 million copies worldwide and turned into an anime series that ran 39 episodes. It is often used as a beginner's book for foreign language students. The book has also been adapted into play & opera.

Pablo NH - I am honestly curious as to what your source is? I have studied egypt in depth and have always believed they were the first to domesticate the cat to control pests. As you may know, the ancient egyptians worshipped the cat and imposed the death penalty for killing cats. (And some think I'm harsh in my beliefs earlier posted! :-) They also mummified their cats before burial.

Happy Holidays!

Don't you get it the_adams? Several things you need to know about this forum.
1. You need to be two bricks short of a load to be a part of this forum.
2. Be educated beyond your intelligence.
3. Sarcastic as _ _ _ _
4. Have no room for any other opinion and belief other than your own.
5. Have the cornor on stupid.
6. Not be able to debate.

HOW DARE YOU!!! We are not educated!!! You take that back!!LOL

Ding, ding, ding...WhisperingFalls wins the gold!!

This thread was due for some sarcasm...'twas going in circles for some unknown reason....hmmmm....

"Saw the one about the cat and was dumbfounded. What about the sacturary option!?!?!"
the_adams-I don't know which cat you are referring to but I thought I would give an update on my cat. She is now recovering well from her surgery and is pretty much back to her old energetic self. So far there has been no inappropriate peeing. Hopefully she will continue her good behavior. In spite what some may think of me from previous posts,I really do love this cat and didn't want to have to take such drastic measures. Hopefully we won't have to deal with the peeing problem again. However,if it starts again and every option has failed I will not hesitate to do whatever I feel is the right thing for her and for my family.
I also agree with Jan.

Labmomma, why would you euthanize an incontinent cat but not your dog with a leaky bladder?

I am not trying to be a smart azz, truly curious?

Dog pee all over the house is fine but cat pee all over the house would not be tolerated?

Am I misunderstanding what leaky bladder meant?

buyorsell, To answer your question. My dog has a leaky bladder caused by a medical problem, not a psychological problem. She takes PPA and it has controlled it since she was spayed. Problem started after a medical mistake during her spaying 11 1/2 years ago. She never peed all over the house, she had no control of leakage. She would lie or sit down and when she would get up, urine would have leaked out. It wasn't as if she squatted and peed anywhere. Involuntary is the key there with that.

So you see, not at all like a cat who pees purposely. BTW, I've had one of those when I was much younger. Not going to happen again. Never, and I will never feel guilty about euthanizing, despite how many posters think I am a monster.

Big P.S.

Dog urine is easy to clean and doesn't smell like cat urine. Have you ever gone into someone's home where a cat has made it its mission to pee all over? I really don't even like it when I go into someone's home who doesn't keep up with their litterbox. Just me.

Hey whisperingfalls - Thanks for the info!! I'll have to work on that, lol! :-)

Beanne - Since I "had" to reply to whisperingfalls I'll reply to yours. A animal sancturary is for animals that cannot be adopted or rerleased into the wild, therefore it is not a "rescue." Some are for specific animals while others are general, i.e. reptiles or avians.

This is not passing your problem on because that is what the sancturary is there for, to take animals no one else can or want to. Usually sancturaries do not have a waiting list or limited space because they are found in rural areas with a lot of usable land.

I never said there was a lot, but there are a few. Such as Tabby's Place who helps cats who found themselves on "death's row," cats who are classed as "unadoptable," because of severe illness, physical "defects," advanced age, or temperament. The goal was to nurture and care for those cats that might eventually become adoptable, but also to provide a home for life, if adoption wasn't possible. www.tabbysplace.org

Another popular sancturary is Home for Life, www.homeforlife.org. Below you will see a picture of Speedy. THIS IS A PERMANETLY INCONTINET CAT who thrives at Home for Life®. Thier cat facility features tiled floors and walls designed to handle problems like his. Speedy's daily routine involves regular cleaning to keep him healthy and fluffy.

Hope that helps clarify what I meant and gives someone in this situation another option. I think it is so wonderful to know there are orginizations out there like this!!!

If anyone can give a humane reason why a cat should be euthanized instead of going to a wonderful place like Home for Life - lets hear it!

Oh god, oh god, here we go again. What I meant to ask was:
If anyone can give reason as to why a incontinet NON-SUFFERING, otherwise healthy cat should be euthnized instead of going to a wonderful place like Home for Life, lets hear it.

Well,I would love to send my cat to a "wonderful" place like that,or one of the "Rescue" facilities that seem to be so widely available,IF there was such a thing anywhere near where I live! A lot of us (like me) live in rural areas where even the cities surrounding us are small enough that they have no such facilities.The only place that even remotely resembles that would be our local SPCA shelter and they are so over run at the moment with cats(and dogs)that they aren't taking any more.I think they said they have over 150 cats and kittens right now,and this is a small facility run by volunteers that aren't even there all the time! They come in two or three times a day to feed and clean cages and pens.I would rather have her euthanized than have her live out her life in a little cage with very little human contact.That's no quality of life in my opinion! With her problems she most likely would never be adopted,and I didn't see anyone here jumping at the chance to take her in!! LOL
"If anyone can give reason as to why a incontinet NON-SUFFERING, otherwise healthy cat should be euthnized instead of going to a wonderful place like Home for Life, lets hear it."
Well......I just gave you a couple!

As I mentioned an a earlier post - you can ship the animal. Take the cost to euthanize and apply it to airline cost & if that's not enough it is certainly worth while to save for a little while or hold a fund raiser. This is your beloved pets life we are talking about.

I do understand that airline travel can be stressfull for a pet, you can also give them tranqulizers that will make the trip more comfortable. And again, certainly one afternoon of discomfort is worth this wonderful little creatures life!

I also understand that you may have to drive into the city for the nearest airport, but this is a pet that you have assumed responsibility for. I hope your not saying that you wouldn't want to make the drive or save a little longer for them so that they can live a happy and FULL life?

Also, for those who actually are interested (not trying to debate here) there is the option of driving your pet. It may take a little leg work to locate the sancutrary closest to you, but I think it is well worth it.

In addition, through contacting rescues in your area you can usually find someone to drive your pet for you. This is usually done to drive a pet that is being adopted to another state. But as they operate seperate from the rescue itself they are usually willing to help with the transportation of any pet for a good cause. Of course there is a fee, but the org. that provides this service in my area are definetly cheaper then the airlines!

Also, the sancturary may be willng to meet you halfway. I live in AZ and there is a Dobe rescue in NM that is willing to meet me half way.

Best wishes to all!

Besides that, where are all these sanctuaries?

Beyond the ones that the_adams already mentioned, here's a few more:

Living Free
Heavenly Pets
Callie's Home 4 Cats
Cat House on the Kings

That was with 5 minutes of searching on google. They're not that hard to find if you're actually looking.

Labmomma, I really was curious, not trying to call you a monster although I do disagree with your decision to euthanize based on inappropriate urination.

Personally, I think dog urine smells just as bad as cat urine.

One of the biggest factors in the odor is whether or not the animal is neutered.

Scent is very important to animals. Their urine, especially in intact animals is supposed to smell. Disgusting to us, but to a male animal, the smell of a breeding females urine is ambrosia. This isn't not confined to dogs and cats either, almost all animals use the smell of urine for important messages about territory, breeding etc.

Neutering removes hormones and pheramones that add to the odor and also reduces the animals tendancy to mark their territory.

As far as inappropriate urination and shelters go, I feel that many of these cats may not have the same problem once removed from the home where they are having it. I don't believe they are insane, determined to drive their owners crazy or otherwise suddenly urinating outside the box for no reason. They have a reason, we just don't always get what it is. A different home/situation may solve the problem.

MANY cats in shelters are there because of litter box issues. I don't think that is a reason to euthanize instead of surrendering.

That's why I started a different thread regarding would you adopt a peeing cat.

I feel that if I turned the peeing cat over to the shelter and was honest, they would either not tell a potential owner or if they did, the peeing cat wouldn't be adopted. I decided to put the cat down.

Nobody wants a peeing cat and the prospects were bleak if he was adopted out and he peed in someone's house. I think euthanization is humane once all medical tests (NOT PSYCHOLOGICAL) rule out a UTI or something to do with the cat's litter box. At least I know what happened to my cat.

I don't know where you live, but the shelters here where I live are disgusting. They stink, the times I have gotten an kitten from them, kitten has always ended up costing me $300 in the first month from a URI. A few have had to be hospitalized within the first week of adoption.

I strongly disagree about the cat urine smell being commensurate with dog urine smell. All of my animals have always been neutered/spayed, so I wouldn't know what an un-neutered/unspayed urine would smell like. I know a neutered male cat urine smells disgusting.

When my youngest dog was housetraining - 12 mos. yes, count em, 12 months of housetraining with accidents (yes I was using a crate, was doing everything but holding the dog in my lap to prevent his peeing), the accidents in no way smelled like the smell of cat urine. I only had to soak it up well with paper towel and then use a rag with disinfectant. No residual smell. That would not work with cat pee.

It may be I am sensitive to the smell of cat pee, but it makes me crazy - I clean my cat boxes twice a week and scoop in between. I drives me crazy when I go to someone's home who doesn't keep up with the box. Some people put them in the basement and think the boxes will somehow amazingly clean themselves??

Since this post seems to be going in a different direction I feel the need to break my vow to post no more on this topic. This is in hopes of not changing labmommas mind, but to hopefully inform those who may be faced with this horrible situation another option.

Sancturaries are not usually for adopting out animals, they are a permenant home for pets that no one else wants either because of age or defect. (i.e. incontinent)

Not too many people would adopt a cat that is incontinent. (Although I know of one couple). That is why these sancturaries exsist, for UNADOPTABLE animals. This really isn't a confusing thought. Yes, it's easier for the owner to euthanize, but in no way is it more humane.

WHAT IF: You informed someone that you planned on euthanizing your cat because it is incontinent. In return they said they would provide a loving and healthy home for that cat (again, assuming the cat is not suffering and is otherwise healthy).

They gave you the option to come view their home and did their best to prove to you that your cat would be better there then dead.

They are not going to try and adopt your cat to someone else. Your beloved, whom has given you their trust, will be taken care of with their "defect" and all...

Why Wouldn't You?

(BTW, dog urine is no more sanitary then cat urine. Smell or no smell.)

How many people do you think are going to offer to take your peeing cat vs. the number of peeing cats who are a problem to their owners???? Somehow, I don't think you will get too many who will step up and take your peeing cat into their home. I may be wrong, won't be the first time.

I wasn't commenting on the issue of sanitary - of course, regardless of which animal does it, it is unsanitary. It's the smell issue, i.e.; the smell of cat urine cannot be removed.

Ugh. Not "people", not individuals. SANCTURARIES, ORGANIZATIONS. Able & willing to take a number of cats that the owners, like you, are not willing to take care of.

Labmomma, I do understand that you do not read my posts in their entirety, but you should really pay attention to your own. Did you not write:

"In the event of absence of objective medical condition diagnosis, i.e.; UTI, I would euthanize, not going to live in an unsanitary home"

BTW, as I said

-AND PAY CLOSE ATTENTION LABMOMMA-

Sancturaries that take animals that are UNADOPTABLE due to their age or "DEFECT" (i.e. incontinent) (i.e. Speedy at Home for Life)

NOT AN INDIVIDUAL...

the_adams, I thought you'd signed off way back when. I really don't care what this thread is about. I don't appreciate the way you attacked labmama and others. labmama posts on several forums that i do. I think she is a nice caring lady So please get a life and leave well enough alone.

You like to post on science forums and think they're great. Child so do i and you will never find a larger group of ego maniacs anywhere. I have a lot of fun listening to a group of jerks who never seem to get the point of anything. As far as political debates, i can imagine where that goes. May i suggest you join a good collage debate team and learn the rules. yes i am definately old enough to give you some advice.
No insult intended.Take your own advice don't get so negative.

You've got a lot of potential.
oakleif

Oakleif, I'm not really sure what you were wishing to accomplish with your last post. It was remarkably condescending and horribly rude. It seems to me that Adams is just growing weary of the miscalculated onslaught of posts by Labmama. Adams' points are clear yet it seems to me that by her responses, Labmama is not even bothering to read all of Adams' posts. My guess, Labmama wasn't aware that there were places that would have been willing to take her cat, and instead of admitting this she is defending what seems to be an indefensible position. To be clear, it was Labmama that began the personal attacks, and this seems to be her M.O. in more than one thread.

As for yourself, if you don't care what the post is about, don't respond to it. And if you do, at least have the courtesy to read it in its entirety before spouting out insults. I guarantee that your friend is not infallible, and attacking someone who disagrees with her in such a demeaning manner truly speaks volumes as to the kind of person that you are.

As the owner of a couple of cats, I for one am glad for the information. Who knows what could happen down the road. I would never put one of my pets down when I knew there were places throughout the country that would be willing to give them a home. And even if I didn't want to give up my pet, I'm sure that those nice people would be more than willing to share their knowledge to help me try to find a way of dealing with such a problem.

In the future please do everyone a favor and have the full story before you decide to toss in your .02.

thank you oakleif for stepping up.

to banditboy: Not attacking anyone, not my M.O. Because I have a different opinion that most of you doesn't mean I am attacking you, rather seems the other way around. It is the non-euthanizing people who are judging those dealing with the cat peeing in the house issue. As for the_adams, have to agree with oakleif. To be really fair, it was OP who did not make this post clear. There are no parameters, it is a completely open statement regarding responsiblity quoted from a french author of children's book

the_adams wrote:

Labmomma, I do understand that you do not read my posts in their entirety, but you should really pay attention to your own. Did you not write:

"In the event of absence of objective medical condition diagnosis, i.e.; UTI, I would euthanize, not going to live in an unsanitary home"

WHAT IS THAT YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IN THAT SENTENCE the-adams. I have read and re-read the entire post. Although you may think it is all clear as a bell the conversation has gone back and forth between individual adopters and sanctuaries. What that has to do with the sanitary issue, I do not know, except for my response that any kind of urine in the house, by any, animal is unsanitary. IMHO cat urine is at the top of the list since you can't rid your house of it.

In case you haven't noticed, there are other people posting as well as yourself. I am fully aware of your feelings on euthanization and petcare and everything other diatribe you have written regarding same.

BTW LISTEN CLOSELY THE_ADAMS - STOP TELLING ME TO PAY CLOSE ATTENTION - stop this condescending attitude of yours and perhaps I won't feel the need to attack you. You are very young and don't have the years of life experience under your belt yet to make any judgments. I have mulit-layered education and am not an idiot. I just can't stomach the entire posts you write, so I simply scan them, you know how that goes...

Seriously, give me a break. I don't want to log only to see the_adams at me again. It may be fun for you, but really, it comes off as disrespectful. My advice, move on to another target.

That just my .02.

the_adams wrote:

WHAT IF: You informed someone that you planned on euthanizing your cat because it is incontinent. In return they said they would provide a loving and healthy home for that cat (again, assuming the cat is not suffering and is otherwise healthy).

They gave you the option to come view their home and did their best to prove to you that your cat would be better there then dead.

They are not going to try and adopt your cat to someone else. Your beloved, whom has given you their trust, will be taken care of with their "defect" and all...

Why Wouldn't You?

the_adams: For your convenience, and to give you a a perfect example of your own post that is ambiguous. I read it and to me, sounds as if you are talking about an individual who invites you to come into their home, see where your cat will live, etc. I am I missing something. NO WHERE IS THE WORD SANCTUARY USED. This is what I have a problem with. When I respond to that sentence you jump all over me and state: "AND PAY CLOSE ATTENTION LABMOMMA SANCTUARIES - I DIDN'T SAY INDIVIDUALS - NOT AN INDIVIDUAL" I suggest that you re-read your posts. Perhaps you could be more clear since from your post the scenario you set up for avoiding euthanizing a peeing cat is the above....

There is no sense in agreeing with someone if they have not presented a valid argument.

Thanks for the support Banditboy!

Oakleif - May I quote myself "Since this post seems to be going in a different direction I feel the need to break my vow to post no more on this topic."

BTW "May i suggest you join a good collage (I assume you mean college?) debate team and learn the rules. yes i am definately old enough to give you some advice."

Been there, done that. Is the University of Arizona a good enough college? :-) Also, you don't have to be a certain age to give me advice, younger, older, doesn't matter. Everyone has experienced different situations in their life. Some younger then others, some not at all. Advice should be dispensed within the context of your experience and not limited to your age.

"So please get a life" OUCH!! :-) I can't help it right now, as I've mentioned, I'm laid up from getting hit by a truck on my motorcycle. Had to drop classes this semester and keep my activity level low.

In being slightly rude to me with "the life" comment you were defending labmomma, someone you like. Well, I really like all animals and by being slightly rude to labmomma in my last couple posts I feel I am defending cats. The difference here is that labmomma has a voice and cats do not.

I had already noticed, before labmomma admitted it, that she was not reading my posts in their entirety. I was making legtimate points in a non hostile, open debate form. As I am sure you can imagine, debating with someone who is only "scanning" your posts can be infuriating, they often miss the point!

Oakleif - Early on I was trying to reason & be diplomatic. As I said, and as any debator would know, it can be very frustrating when others in the group aren't listening. She admitted to just scanning my posts!!! Most of my posts, until the last couple, are diplomatic! I have learned at the University of Arizona's debate classes that it is VERY important to pay attention to what EVERYONE says so that you may respond appropriatly.

Could I ask you, who else have I been rude to? I didn't realize I was! I truly have no problem admitting when I'm wrong and I would like the opportunity to apologize.

"No insult intended. Take your own advice don't get so negative."

Your right, your right and your right. I'm sorry. My frustration got the best of me!

Labmomma - Your "scanning" of my posts failed for you to get the point in the post you quoted above. Before I typed "WHT IF", in the same post I typed about sancturaries. Directly precedding my "what if" scenario I said "Not too many people would adopt a cat that is incontinent. (Although I know of one couple). That is why these sancturaries exsist, for UNADOPTABLE animals. This really isn't a confusing thought. Yes, it's easier for the owner to euthanize, but in no way is it more humane." Then I said "what if", I sincerely apologize that I did not try harder to connect the two.

You have proceeded to make comments about shelters not being a good option for an incontinent cat - yet I never said shelter.

"BTW LISTEN CLOSELY THE_ADAMS - STOP TELLING ME TO PAY CLOSE ATTENTION" You have admitted to only "scanning" my posts & this was obvious to me before you told me you were doing it!!! If I wanted to draw your attention to something and make sure you read it in it's entirety I knew I had to do something that would draw your attention to it and keep it short!

"In the event of absence of objective medical condition diagnosis, i.e.; UTI, I would euthanize, not going to live in an unsanitary home"

WHAT IS THAT YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IN THAT SENTENCE the-adams."

That you later said "I wasn't commenting on the issue of sanitary - of course, regardless of which animal does it, it is unsanitary. It's the smell issue, i.e.; the smell of cat urine cannot be removed."

Simply, it seems like the two sentences contradict each other.

Just because my DH cooks bacon in our house and I find the smell extremly offensive doesn't mean my home is unsanitary.

In your opnion, why should the cat be euthanized, because of the smell or because urine is unsanitary?

"so I simply scan them, you know how that goes..."

No, I don't, I read each and every post in their entirety. And reread them as I an typing my response.

Could I just ask one final question Labmomma - It is obvious that you were unaware of the sanctuary option. In the future, were you faced with this situation again, would you please consider the option of placing your animal with a sanctuary? Is that too much to ask?

See, nobody has responded to this: How is it more humane to euthanize an incontinent cat, that is otherwise healthy and not suffering, then send it to a sanctuary?

Geez, my head is spinning from these posts between labmomma and Adams.
I think neither are going to give an inch, and shouldn't.
The Adams thinks that taking responsibily for a pet means doing anything to preserve that life as long as the animal is not suffering. If that means giving that responsibility to someone else, such as a santuary, that's the right thing to do in her opinion.
Labmomma chose to take responsibility for the life and death of her pet. That was the right thing to do in her opinion.
IMO one is not more right than the other.

Beanne - Wow, there is a voice of reason here!

Bravo, Bravo!!

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN, THE GAVEL HAS BEEN STRUCK!

WOULD THE CONGREGATION PLEASE LEAVE AT THE REAR!!!

COFFEE AND DONUTS WILL BE SERVED UPON LEAVING.....

the_adams wrote:

"That you later said "I wasn't commenting on the issue of sanitary - of course, regardless of which animal does it, it is unsanitary. It's the smell issue, i.e.; the smell of cat urine cannot be removed."

Simply, it seems like the two sentences contradict each other".

"Just because my DH cooks bacon in our house and I find the smell extremly offensive doesn't mean my home is unsanitary".

IMHO, your statement is comparing apples to oranges. I don't think my sentences contradicted one another. I will state it simply. Cat and/or dog or other animal urine is unsanitary especially in a home with carpet where children play. The smell of cat urine once in a fabric-like material, cannot be removed.

In response, I have re-read all of your posts. I can usually glean the content of a post by scanning it. I, unlike you, don't have the time to sit and read lengthy posts, word for word. Just trying to get the gist and participate. I think you need to lighten up. I am not looking for formal debate, I did that in college and post-graduate school 20 years ago. I think suggesting that posters follow formal debate etiquitte is a bit much since we are just a bunch of animal lovers who are tossing around subjects raised.

the_adams: "In your opnion, why should the cat be euthanized, because of the smell or because urine is unsanitary?"

My cat wasn't euthanized because of the unsanitary condition nor the smell. It was euthanized because of the behavioral problem. The former were just secondary to the behavior.

Definitely agree that sending a peeing cat to a Sanctuary is the more humane thing to do if you have the ability to do so. I am glad to know there are sanctuaries to take these types of animals. However, I didn't know anything about them, or whether they even existed 25 years ago when I euthanized my peeing cat. I have merely gotten involved in the peeing cat scenario in defense of those who feel that is the solution to their cat's behavior to euthanize after ruling out all medical not psychological problems. If those pet owners want to sanctuary their cats, I think that's fine, but if they choose euthanization, I think that's okay too. It really is the pet owner's decision, not mine, not yours. You only can control your actions not the actions of others.

I am of the opinion that each pet owner is entitled to make decisions for their pet with the advice of their veterinarian, without judgment by others. I know, your response is - well then don't post-. You will not see me post, "what should I do". In the event I have a question about one of my pets, I consult my veterinarian.

"I can usually glean the content of a post by scanning it. I, unlike you, don't have the time to sit and read lengthy posts, word for word."

Isn't that how this got started in the first place??

If you aren't going to bother reading the post thoroughly, why are you posting responses??

They are written words, it is not like you couldn't hear them clearly. If the words are being perused, it is now fairly obvious how they are turning muddy.

"Definitely agree that sending a peeing cat to a Sanctuary is the more humane thing to do..."

Thanks for reading, thanks for debting, that's all I was looking for.

Wasn't even trying to say that you should have done it 25 years ago. Didn't even know your experience happened that long ago but I didn't say it because there was a good chance that it was something that happended in the distant past and the sanctuary option wasn't there.

Your a pet lover, that is obvious. I too wouldn't live in a house that smells like cat urine. Personally I would provide seperate living quaters for my cats that would consist of outdoor/indoor facilities. That's just me, i don't think everyone has this option nor do I expect everyone to go to these measures.

I felt it was important for it to be clear what I meant by santuary and that there are other options avaliable. Obviously, people like Banditboy really apreciated this info. I am sure there will be others to Google this topic and will be happy to read of this option, so it seemed worth my while to reengage in this topic and post the info.

As next semester begins, I too won't have the time to read lengthy posts, therefore I won't respond.

"The smell of cat urine once in a fabric-like material, cannot be removed."

Actually, it can. The small biz I own is a Building Maintenance Company. I deal with a lot of contract cleaners and know one guy who has the ability to remove the smell from almost anything. Problem is his equipment has cost him over 60K, not too many cleaners have that kind of money to invest.

If anyone has a prob w/ odor & is wondering what exactly needs to be done, e-mail me and I will contact this guy. You could then look for someone in your who has the correct equipment. Might be worth a try to save thousands on carpet/furniture.

What he can do is nothing short of a miracle. :-) He helped with my truck once when kitty went tinkle in it. Imagine this: Arizona, Middle of Summer, 105+ degrees, cat urine in small enclosed area. I too a very sensitive to the cat urine smell and the smell is really gone. Although, I still ask everone who gets into my truck "Can you smell cat pee in here, be honest?" Everyone says no, yaaa!

"IMHO, your statement is comparing apples to oranges."

I like apple & oranges, but cooking bacon and cat pee, I can't decide which is worse! :-) Atleast the bacon smell is easier to remove, open the windows! LOL!