I pretty much agree with Moonie 57, it was not ideal, and I would have rather not supported the industry of pet store, and very often I have a hard time going in that pet store and seeing the puppies, when I go in there to buy crickets for my pet frog, so I put that off for months instead of going there first. But, when I held him, I felt as if he was really special. His name is Carmel and photo will be posted soon. He must have had a good upbringing because otherwise, he would not be well behaved, and well adjusted. I have no idea what his background was, but I am glad, I will be able to afford to fix his knee if it turns out he needs this operation.

I have also bought from a breeder who seemed to fit all the qualities of a good breeder, and that was the Yorkie who was so very sickly both mentally and physically. She really cared about her dogs in fact, she even took one back puppy back, who was not eating and nursed him back to health so he could re join the family. She was very loving to her dogs, and did keep up with us, but still the problems my vet claimed were caused by the smallness of size, and this whole teacup craze is really dangerous, and people should be warned, tiny dogs can be a nightmare of mental and physical problems. We visited her house were the dogs were home raised, and we saw the mother dog who was very loved. This was before there was such a thing as a teacup dog. She was merely a smaller size Yorkie from the litter with two smaller size puppies and three bigger size puppies, and I really should have gone with the larger size puppies. It was a hideous mistake on my part. The mother was a large size Yorkie, and these dogs had not even been breed to be super small or teacups. If the mother is small there are problems with the births.

If a good breeder did happen to have a dog with the non movable knee cap problem, then pet store may have been a last resort, rather then just putting him to sleep for having a defective knee. My vet said, this was a very common problem and he also said, he could be 100 normal after the corrective surgery. But, this is certainly not a bed of roses, and people should be really careful. The pet store declared a problem with one knee but said, he was likely to grow out of it, and also my vet agreed, he could end up growing up and not needing the surgery. This will have to be monitored as he grows. Right now, he is walking and running around without any difficulty.

Dante my dog from the pound was also a huge mistake, and there was no way to predict that. There is no way to remove all the uncertainty with getting a new dog. But, I felt in spite of it all I had to stick it out until his old age, and I never considered dumping him.

Lion the Chow German Sheppard who the neighborhoods gave to us, rather then putting him to sleep was our most successful dog, but he had hip dysplasia and I hated seeing him in pain. His was not serious for surgery, the vet said, but as he got older, he got much more crippled, and then it was too late for surgery. He was born because a lady in the neighborhood was breeding Chow German Sheppards and two other puppies went to other neighbors from his litter. They were well loved, but all had hip dysplasia, and she should not have been breeding those dogs at all. I never met her, but I was told this story by the other family, that adopted the other half of his litter.

Pet store gain business by word of mouth and if all the puppies raised under hideous conditions and have horrible defects, then they would end up losing sales, and would not get any repeat customers. With the internet people can review pet stores right on line. If they bought a dog there, and he was very badly breed, and with serious behavior problems they can state this in a review, and this would be bad for the store, so the store does have some interest in buying dogs that are good quality. I am not giving the pet store, a glowing review at all, but he is certainly not a horrible dog whom I regret buying. I would tell my friends the truth about him, and let them decide if they want to take a risk.

bug_girl, congrats on your new dog.I think you did good. Neutering should be between you and your vet. You are the only ones that knows your situation. I'm a firm beleiver there are exceptions to every rule. Go for it.: )

I'd like to see pictures of the mommmy dog. I bet she's adorable. What's her name?
I'm just asking, because I've had very few pedigreed dogs,so I never got to know the parent's or their names.

This is beanne's first post on this forum-
Posted by beeanne (My Page) on Sun, Nov 12, 06 at 13:18

You've done a wonderful thing by buying from a pet store. You have opened that cage for yet another puppy mill puppy. I'm sure his mother appreciates the fact that her pups are selling so she will be bred yet again next heat.After all, she loves being a puppy breeding machine and making money for her fine upstanding owner. Shoot even when she has ones with bad knees they manage to sell.It's a win win situation,for momma dog,owner, and pet store. Keep up the good work and make sure to tell all your friends they should consider a pet store puppy.
This is beanne's second post on this forum-
Posted by beeanne (My Page) on Mon, Nov 13, 06 at 7:34

I'd like to see pictures of the mommmy dog. I bet she's adorable. What's her name?
I'm just asking, because I've had very few pedigreed dogs,so I never got to know the parent's or their names.

First post= sarcastic
Second post= nicey, nicey

What are we today beanne?

ummm....second post is also sarcastic. :-) I won't hold my breath for pictures or even a name. She bought the pup from a pet store for crying out loud. Do you think she got pictures of the mommy? If so, that's a first. If she knows the name it's because it's on the registration paper. I'd kind of like the name because AKC should know that girl is throwing pups with bad knees and shouldn't be bred again.

Please do hold your breath, bug girl has made her choice. Probably doesn't need your opinion. What is done is done. Please offer your solutions and start action, NOW. Instead of ridicule. People with all mouth no action....

You don't know me. Ridicule me all you want. Buying a pet store puppy is ignorant and those who do it are causing more animals to suffer. It's one thing to buy one because you didn't know better, it's another when you do it anyway.
What's done is done is right. That doesn't make it right, just sad.

As far as not needing an opinion, then why post here? This is the Animal Debate forum, and when one posts here it is assumed they are seeking opinions both pro and con.

Unfortunately, there is no "solution". THis person has indeed made the choice to throw her support behind a puppy mill business. It is probably best to view her as rescuing this animal from a bad situation. It really isn't much different whether a dog is rescued from a pound or from a pet store, it is already alive and deserves to be loved as much as any other animal.

As far as registration papers, etc. It is unlikely that any papers issued with a pet store puppy have anything to do with the animal that was purchased. Puppy mills routinely allow their dogs to breed indiscriminately, so thinking that the papers issued actually reflect the parents of the animal in question is naieve at best.

I believe every single non-showing pet quality dog should be neutered, but if you read her entire first post, she really doesn't seem to be astute when it comes to dogs and is just trying to do the best she can.

I hope her commitment to this animal lasts for the duration of the animals life and wish her the best.

Alexa

Buying A pet store puppy is definately different than rescue. I don't care if the poor thing is a bag of bones and laying in it's own poop in a cage that he can't turn around in. It is not a rescue unless you get it so cheap, or free that no one makes any money. Otherwise you are just making room for another to be treated the same way. If that is the goal to "save" that poor pet shop puppy so be it. Myself , I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing I was causing more misery.

"I believe every single non-showing pet quality dog should be neutered"

You just made alot of hunting dog enthusiasts quite unhappy. As a hunter who uses pointing dogs I much prefer the FDSB registry as opposed to the AKC registry.

Without digressing into a heated debate about the registry, lets at least agree that the AKC does produce some very beautiful dogs and the FDSB produces some wonderful hunting dogs .. and that the conformity to each standard is not the same.

Although I seek out FDSB dogs to improve my odds of getting a good hunting prospect, I am not an elitist and would never suggest that all unregisterd dogs should be neutered.

simpleman,

you are absolutely correct in that I should have included field trial dogs. IMO there are many hunting breeds that have been ruined by show breeders trying to achieve a "pretty" version of a breed while ignoring the basic purpose of what the breed is meant for. My personal experience is referring to watching a breed ring filled with Labs, all of whom were so fat and physically unfit they were panting after gaiting once around the ring. A fit working dog that enjoys his job is a thing of beauty even if he doesn;t conform perfectly to the AKC breed ring standard.

That said, I do know a few breeders of dogs that compete in field trials and though their first goal of a planned breeding isn't the AKC ideal of a perfect physical specimen, each and every one of them do include physical traits when considering which sire and dam to choose. Basically, you need to make sure the mechanics are there for the dog to stay sound during the rigorous physical demands put on them, not just a great hunting desire.

I wholly apologize for not including Field Trial dogs in my statement.

beeann - basically you are saying it is okay to punish the puppy that is in that cage for the greater good of all. WHile in theory I agree with you, when confronted with a pathetic little face, it takes a spine of steel to walk away knowing that baby has done NOTHING to deserve the unfortunate circumstances it is living in.

Alexa

What I find most puzzling about the OP is that she went to the pet store because breeders and rescues are too expensive, yet she is very happy with her purchase even though right off the bat he needs $2000 worth of surgery.

Assuming she was unaware of the puppy mill/pet store connection and got sucked in by a cute little face, I'd be furious that I'd been had, and I'd be raising the roof about it.

Bug_girl, why don't you try to get some compensation from them? You can probably sue them in small claims court and you could teach them a lesson about why they shouldn't buy puppies from puppy mills.

If that puppy doesn't sell, it won't be replaced. Simple as that. No market for puppy mill pups, no puppy mills.
I don't see the cute puppy, or the pitiful puppy in the pet store. I think about where that pup came from and absolutely would never give a dime to that store, much less buy a puppy from them. If they want to give me one or sell dirt cheap, yea, I'd take it, if I was sure they lost money on the deal. Otherwise, I'm supporting the puppy mill trade.

caliloo,

I was hoping this was your intent. Thanks for the clarification. However, I'm not ready to agree that all dogs need to be neutered, and in fact, I have one of my two now that is not.

Beanne,

I couldn't agree more that if you know pet stores are supplied by puppy mills then you only support the bad guys if you partipate at all in the supply chain. Our words may say that puppy mills are evil but we all vote with our pocket books/wallets.

bug_girl,

The smallest expense in owning a pet is the purchase price. It cost just as much to feed and care for the "inexpensive" dog as it does for the pure bred. It may even cost more in vet bills on the cheap pet, and unfortunately, you may now realize this. If you simply wanted to share your new pet, you should have gone to that forum, not to a "DEBATE" forum.

All of us need to examine our belief systems and then back them up with actions which speak much louder than words. As bug_girl found out, this can sometimes be very difficult to do when you have tempted fate and attached yourself to a puppy or kitten.

As I have gotten older (what a drag!) I've begun to shy away from absolute statements. I generally find that I end up hanging by my own words. I have found that words like "all" & "never" seldom end up making true statements. There always seems to be an exception to whatever was stated.

As this is the animal debate forum- I'll chime in against "local pet stores" selling dogs. These are often puppy mill supporters, and you pay HUGE money for dogs of questionable lineage or often even mixed breeds.

If you want a mixed breed dog- then the pound/rescue is a good place to start.

Just a little 411 on the "pet store" policy return issue. My SIL bought a golden retriever from a pet store 15 years ago. SIL was 20 years old, had no idea what she was contributing to at that time.

Long story short, "Aretha" had bad hips - discovered at first vet visit. It came to light very early on that Aretha was in fact a "puppy mill" dog. When SIL called the store they offered to take the pet back and partial refund. Store would not offset cost of hip surgery or any other care. Of course, SIL would not give pet up and over the lifetime of the dog, spent huge amounts of money on the best care and treatment. Aretha had a lifetime of maladies for a supposed "pure bred". She also had a lifetime of companionship, love and family with SIL and eventually her husband and children that came along later.

The important part of this story is that she was a young girl, had no idea about puppy mills and the like when she bought the dog.

SIL is older and wiser and now as you might imagine totally opposed to puppy mills.

I think it is sad, but I guess sometimes people innocent mistakes, bad choices, etc. I've made plenty... I don't get the impression that OP feels the purchase was a mistake? It is not the mistake so much that is bothering me with the OP situation, but the fact that the OP just seems to think the main problem for her is the question of neutering? Is it me, or isn't that going to be the least of her problems?

I intended not to even get going on this particular issue, since my view of this particular puppy mill breeding makes me sick. I can't even go into a pet store that sells dogs and cats. I won't spend $.10 in a store like that. I just wanted to post in the event OP does decide to try and recoup some of her costs for surgery, she will meet with a hands down "no way". I am sure this puppy was an "as is" purchase.

BTW, funny that you asked for pics of the mom beenane. I really got a kick from that because I do have pics (taken by me) of my 2 boys parents. They have the same mother but different fathers and don't look anything alike. My breeder has both dogs on site and encourages and actually will drag you out to "meet the parents". I am counting my blessings at this particular moment.

I'm sure you do have pics of parents. I've had that privilage twice in my life. I bought from a breeder so actually saw where two Aussies came from. Saw mom, saw dad. It's a good thing. Since then, many years ago, I have no idea where my animals came from. They just seem to fall out of the sky. Maybe that's why I can't understand people having such a hard time finding a pet. Mine seem to find me, through rescue or whatever.
I may come across as seeming to think that the only way to go, is shelters or rescues.That's not really true. Of course I think adopting an animal on death row or from a rescue or shelter is wonderful, but I know it's not for everyone. I dream sometimes about buying the breed of my choice again from a reputable breeder, but it's not going to happen. My dogs are still pretty young and even if they weren't, something would fall from the sky, that needed a home, before I could even think about buying a dog.

Why would anyone knowingly buy a dog with a genetic defect?

Why would anyone not neuter a dog with a genetic defect?

Why would anyone care about AKC registration if they weren't going to breed the dog?

So sad.

Supporting puppy mills, the pet store and planning to breed to pass on the genetic defect to others.

Thinking neutering is mutilation is just flat out hysterical. BTW, they have fake testicals to insert for those who can't stand the thought of the dog not having any. ...

Neutered dogs are much less likely to bite, roam, fight, and are better pets.

I foster dogs and I can say most male dogs recover from their neuter without needing any pain meds past the first day. Females have a rougher time with spay surgeries. However, I also fostered a 10 year girl who had uterine cancer when our adoption group did her spay. :( Sadly, the longer you wait to spay/neuter the more likely such cancer will occur. Also, there are a number of behavioral reasons to neuter your dog if you don't plan to breed - marking, territorial behavior, the possibility that your measures aren't as perfect as you think and he DOES find a intact female to breed, etc. And your puppy has bad knees - don't breed that defect. That is a sad fact of puppy mills and pet stores - they breed poor quality animals with numerous health issues. I only hope you're intelligent enough to end his lineage with him and get him neutered. There's no reason NOT to honestly - like I said, the dogs (adults) that I've had at my house did very well recovering from their surgeries. There are several reasons TO neuter - even if some are just possibilities. There are no good reasons NOT to neuter a nonbreeding animal IMO.

Maybe you can find the puppy mill your dog came from on one of these lists.

List 1

List 2

If you can't find them there, they might not be operating legally and you should check current lists via this USDA site:

aphis.usda

A reputable breeder will NEVER use a middle man...period.

"Saving a dog" from a pet store, no matter how harsh this seems, only perpetuates the problem.

Hope that helps.

Webcat, Thanks for posting this. I've tried in vain to prove that the kennel I bought from bought from a puppy mill. Cody had too many quirks not to be. I found it on List 2. Spring Pond Kennel in Shippensburg, Pa. My husband and I would like to take a road trip and see it. I'd find a sitter for Cody, I'd never want to take him back to puppy memories. He's still afraid of that dark hole we call the basement. He cries until we emerge from that scarey place. We've tried to take him down but he's whimpers at the door until we take him back out.

Oh my goodness Webcat :-( I only just glanced at list one and saw tons of Yoders, Troyers, and Zimmermans. I bet every one is Amish.

I actually live in an Amish and Menonite community...I do suppose that it is possible that some apples fell far from the trees. In general, the people in my town are very kind to animals.

Why did that catch your attention?

Because of all the talk a few years back about Amish and PMs. One named David? zimmerman was an especially nasty one. Also, I am originally from Ohio and Amish country there now has lots of mills, as I understand it.
Are you in Penn.? Lancaster is turning into the puppy mill capital, I believe, unless I'm way behind or just confused. Which could be :-)

No, you are correct.

I live about 2 hours from Lancaster and the number of puppy mills there is astonishing.

Really a depressing situation.

I live 45 minutes from Lancaster. Our local paper always has ads for kennels there that are selling many different breeds of dogs, always a tip-off that it's a mill.

Dirthappy, I'm curious as to your dog's breed. I happen to have visited a kennel in Shippensburg last year while searching for a new dog. I didn't like what I found there and left. I can't remember the name of it but she had toy fox terriers, rat terriers, and I think she mentioned another breed she had in her garage but I can't remember what it was.

His papers claim Maltese. I didn't get him in Shippensburg but from a kennel here in New York. He was just born in Shippensburg.

I would have remembered if she had said Maltese because I used to have one. It would have been a huge coincidence if it had been the same kennel, just thought I'd ask. That's Mennonite country, too, and this was a Mennonite breeder.

EEK! I had no idea the Amish and Mennonites ran puppy mills! Gets me to thinking of cows on diary farms. Should we even be drinking milk? Who would like living the life of a diary farm cow? Are we more worried about puppies and kittens because they're cute, make great house pets, and are very intelligent? Hmmm.. pigs are smart. That ham on the Christmas table may go uneaten by me this year.

I hate when my mind starts pondering.

oh yeah.. almost forgot..

Dirtyhappy, I'm sorry for all the distress you may be feeling because of where your pup originated from. But, you've learned something important in the process. :(

A friend of mine lives in PA and works for an Amish man part time and she says they are not kind to animals in general. They view them as inferior to humans and feel it is their right via God to profit from them in any way. I've heard this before from others in PA.

She also says that many Amish do have puppy mills. The people she works for (nothing to do with dogs) also backyard breed. My friend has been involved with dogs for many years, showing but not breeding. She is horrified by their callous treatment of animals and their indiscriminate breeding but she cannot afford to quit her job and most other jobs in her town are related to someone Amish anyway.

I guess there must be a huge difference between Missouri and PA Amish communities...

I will have to check into that further...

My horse, Sam (a Haflinger), came from the Amish...

I first saw him at a draft horse and mule auction and when no one bid on him, the kill lots tried to buy him. Sam's owner would not allow them to and stuck to their reserve (this is set so the lots can't automatically bid and win).
I knew at that point that I wanted that horse. I went to pick him up and he, as well as the other horses/animals, seemed to be fabulously cared for.

I am from MO. too, and I was just thinking the same thing, my mom runs a horse farm and uses the amish for everything from horse breaking (a 10, 11, and 12 year old do this for her) horse shoeing, having her wagons fixed and so on (she has about 15 haflingers included in her 100 count mengarie) yes it is true they are 'stern' with the horses but they are in no way abused, and with ponies you have to be stern, would you chance your 4 and 5 year olds with anything but a bomb proof horse? (her x-mas ponies are a big selling point) I have pics of these Amish broke ponies if anyone would like to see (my 5 year old is riding them) no one in the community raises dogs and in fact they got one of my moms Australian cattledogs for the community kids, they all love him.

on the Apricot poodle, I just wanted to give you a piece of info, my husband owned a poodle when he was growing up, think he was around 15lbs maybe? and he actually went through the living room window to get to a female. they had some times with that dog! he was out on a chain and a female cocker spaniel CAME OVER TO HIS CHAIN! those owners of that dog sued my in-laws and won 500.00 dollars (can you believe that?) then sold the puppies for 100.00, would not even let them see the puppies, they offered to buy one, you know what the answer to that was, George was getting up in age so they thought maybe they could get a puppy (I know, his parents are a little odd, why would you ask the people that sued you if you could buy a puppy?)
I am not condemming you for your choice in neutering, just wanted to let you in on another experiance with a poodle.

I just wanted to add that I have decided to have him fixed in consideration of his luxating patella, and the very small chance he would accidentally breed, and past this on which can result in the dogs being crippled for life in a stage four case. Each dog needs to be considered case by case, and I still do not believe all dogs should be fixed an absolute rule.

Good idea, bug-girl. :)

How is Carmel and where is the photo you promised? Would love to see him.

Bug girl, I've been mean to you on this board. I will not apoligize for that. I feel strongly, that what you did puts your puppy's mom in even more danger. What you can do, is prove me wrong. Supply the kennel name at least. Then we can decide for ourselves if it is a clean commercial breeder, or a filthy one that your pup came from. Is your pups mom in a cage with a hampster water bottle? Or does she actually get to drink water from a bowl? Or can you prove he came from a hobby breeder where you have pictures of his parents and the breeder will be proud to show you both parents?
I'm only mean to you because I'm sure you knew better before you bought your pet store puppy. You just didn't care. Thats just MHO.

I looked at every possible rescue and I searched for two months. I did find a white poodle at peninsula humane, and they said, you cant have him, he doesnt like cats. How do you know? I asked he pulled slightly towards the cats, they said.

(My new poodle likes he cats, and he is interested, he doesnt not bother the cats.)

I found a poodle at in Sonoma SPCA, they said, you cant have him. I said, why? They said, he was returned by someone because he barks constantly, and he needs too much exercise. I was so rejected by each SPCAs, each pound and each rescue, only Rocket dogs was friendly to me, but they did not have anything, and they also had a huge number of people competing for a the small dogs. They mentioned a 10 year old poodle, I knew my husband would not agree, but I asked to see her, and they made a call, and said, no his foster home wants to keep her. They said, they would email me if they found a dog that would work, and I have not heard anything back, so I would still be waiting at this point.

I did want a poodle per se, so I found a mixed poodle, and so many people wanted him there was no chance.

I found a silky at Pets In Need Rescue, Rosie the Silky was ten years, had serious medical problems and hated to be picked up and tried to bite me when I need to bring her down the stairs after our visit.

I did not want to buy a dog online and have him shipped without seeing him first. I found a silky breeder locally, but she was not having puppies for at least 10 more months. The Yorkie I did get from a "good breeder" not so good. She hated to be touched or picked up. I think this comes from grooming the puppies and when it pulls thier fur they associate laps sitting and touching with pain. So, my poodle is only being professional groomed.

I did get him at the pet shop. He is very well behaved, and a wonderful dog, but he may have a 2000 dollar knee operation in his future, however, the pet store is willing to cover that if needed. Since I discovered this I feel much better. But, the dark side is clear. I have contacted his breeder from his registration so she will know not to breed his parents again, thus stopping the cycle hopefully, if she is responsible, of luxating patella.

I really did try to get a rescue, but I realized it was going to take years of searching, and I wanted less time looking and more time being with my puppy. So, it is very tempting, when you see the prefect dog, and you can just have him without suffering all of the lengthy application processes, the home inspection, the waiting, the delays, the heart break of losing the dog you want to someone else. I do not think what pet store puppies are ideal, but if it had been easier to rescue one, I would have done that.

Dante was a rescue 15 years ago, but things are much harder at rescues. In fact, there are very few dogs to be rescued except for pit bills, and Chihuahuas, and mixes of these types we did not want. When you look you can see in numbers there are many dogs, but of the ones we wanted there are very few. Kern County near Bakers field is 300 miles away, and they have a huge number of dogs, but to get one we would have to make many trips to Bakers field, and we both work, and do not have un limited time to invest. I cant say he did come from a puppy mill. You cant say all pet stores puppies come from puppy mills. He had a breeder who sent him to a clearing house who ships to various pet stores. If he had a horrible existences then he would not be a nice dog now.

Dante (my mixed breed rescue) had been abused, and he was a bitter, who also bite not only us, but children. My husband refused the idea of an older dog, because he did not want to endure a death so soon, and we were really out of options before I saw the puppy at the pet store. He did not come from a puppy mill. I have provided a link to a site with a discussion which points out bad temper and ill health is not always related to a puppy mill, it can come sometimes with genetics.

San Francisco has a premium on small dogs, because space is expensive and apartments are small.

Bug Girl, I'm glad your puppy has found someone kind and willing to give it the love and the help it needs. Who knows what it's fate would have been if you had not purchased it. Puppy mills/pet stores will be an issue for a long time. And I'm not in favor of puppy mills. So, do we leave these puppies in the pet stores to face probable death? Or do we give them a chance for a loving, caring, secure life in our homes? It's not the puppies at fault, we can't hold them responsible for where they came from. But they do deserve a warm loving home. I wish you much luck with your puppy. Now how about a picture? :)

Bug girl, I ditto above poster. enjoy you puppy.

"If he had a horrible existences then he would not be a nice dog now."

Working with rescue I know this is entirely untrue and depends upon the dog. In fact, I rescued a Doberman 3 years ago this Thanksgiving. He was obviously very abused, but is the sweetest, kindest, most gentle giant (105 pds!). He lives peacefully in a home with my Jack Russell and Min Pin, always watching his step as not to hurt them.

He has never snapped at us or the other dogs. A horrible exsistence does not equal a "not nice dog".

My rescue experience deals specifically with severly abused dogs. I have come upon many who you would expect to be mean after what they endured, yet they are not. They seem to look at you with eyes that are saying "Thank you..."

I completely agree with the_adams....in fact it is part of a dogs nature to be more forgiving than not.

I, also, have had many abuse cases through my doors (I rehabilitate and rehome) and have only had one that was not able to be rehomed. She was severely beaten and was part Border Collie. This type of dog has an intense ability to reason and will tend to be much less forgiving.
She lived with me for quite a while (8 years) until she became a danger to me and my other dogs....

I never considered her to be my dog, but a dog that lived with me since the trust level was never secure.

Does anyone feel like projectile vomiting after reading this?

yes

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

The best thing I got from this particular thread was access to List 1 and List 2 courtesy of webcat. I actually printed List 1, not realizing it was 75 plus pages long.

The names of the corporate breeders, there were so many and not just drug companies, etc. You know what they are breeding for. It was very enlightening.

As for the OP, I don't think the pet store purchase was totally "innocent". I don't think she set out for a puppymill dog, but I don't see that it bothered her at all, and that part really offends me.

She's Guilty.
Guilty of two counts of not doing her homework prior to obtaining a dog.
Sentencing to commence on December 5th.
This court is adjourned.

webkat, are those 'lists' everybody that raises dogs that has a license? or are they known puppy mills? is there reputable breeders in there as well?
just curious....

Micke, generally speaking those should only be the puppy mills. The reason I say that is because the responsible breeders won't be required to license themselves with the USDA. If a breeder has over 3 breeding females, they are required to register...if they don't, they are operating illegally. Since a part of responsible breeding is the absence of a "numbers" game (breeding females or litters produced), they shouldn't be on the lists.

Hunt corporation and Petland are suspect of purchasing from illegal operations...if the breeder can not be found on those lists and was purchased from via those companies, they should be reported. Even if the breeder is on the list and is inspected by the USDA...the visits are generally announced (unlike restaurants), so what is the point?? If they are not on the lists, they are never inspected.

You can read much more about Petland puppies, etc...at this website...I used it for some of the information in a speech I gave about puppy mills/pet stores/pet overpopulation.

The first list are those who hold A certs (Breeders), the second list are those who hold B certs (Dealers).

I really highly doubt everyone on the "A" list is a puppy mill type of breeder. One of the registrants lived right down the street from where I used to live. Not that that means anything but I suppose we can go to these addresses and say "whuzza"
How do we know these are all dog breeders and not alpacas or ostriches?

The obvious reason to neuter your male dog, if they are not neutered they hump everything in site. And they pee all over everything they come into contact with. You and he will be much happier if you take him to get snipped.

I mean no one will want to visit you at your house if your dog humps them when they come over and whizzes on their stuff. My DHs parents had a bichon that before they had it fixed, actually whizzed on my baby's blanket that was on the floor - he was being territorial obviously. Another friends male dog pees on people's coats when they come over. Endearing.

Also you should not breed him because he obviously came from stock that had knee problems, why would you want to perpetuate that trait?
Good breeders will watch for that and try to breed it out of their lines. And will advertise that fact proudly when they can.

Good luck with the poodle, they are very smart animals and you should be able to teach him lots of tricks after you get his knees fixed.