Sally

Lisa

They are former pets, race/show/riding/breeding horses, PMU mares/foals, stolen, wild/feral etc.

These animals have been companions, made money for and are supposed to be protected by man.

PMU mares are mares used to produce Estrogen for menopausal women. Mostly draft types. The Estrogen is produced from their urine and they have to be pregnant and wear a device to catch the urine. The foals are often sent to slaughter. So are the mares when they wear out.

It is not uncommon for horses to be stolen and then sold for slaughter it is also not uncommon for wild horses to be adopted and sold for slaughter. There are very few left on public lands despite the overwhelming support of the public for them. When they are adopted from the BLM they are not supposed to be sent to slaughter.

Dogs and cats are also companion animals, they aren't raised for food consumption. They trust people.

As far as cannibalism goes, I think eating primates as they do in some African countries is flat out horrid.

Ditto whales and dolphins, they are too intelligent and too rare to be eaten for food.

He discusses this at great length. As mentioned above, kitties and doggies have cute, juvenile faces, are more juvenile in their head shapes and the fuzziness of their fur. The animals that we eat, he says, chose to be domesticated (in the farmed sense, not the pet sense) because their habitat was so decimated by the last ice age that they would have gone extinct. Not that the animals knew they would become extinct, but the humans enabled their species to continue by giving them a level of protection they could not get in their dissappearing habitat. Not because humans are self-important savages who like to exploit animals; it was a natural process that benefited both humans and animals to the same degree.

Interesting read.

Well, maybe I do impose my belief on others since I have wondered about the acceptable food animals and the taboo food animals.

Back to what Meghane and a few others pointed out; some animals are produced/raised in such a way that is down right cruel. The treatment of calfs that are raised to be our grilled veal is horrible. Chickens are kept in cages too small, and have their beaks cut off so they don't peck each other or themselves due to the stress of over crowded conditions, while Petit Fois Gras (I have no idea of the correct spelling of that) is produced by force feeding geese so that their livers become so big the poor birds cannot stand up. That turkey the President pardens each year doesn't have a long or glorious life, because it is so over fattened it cannot bear it's own weight, and dies from complications of being morbidly obese. The turkey's that are eaten for Thanksgiving I guess have it better since they are slaughtered just before they die of obesity. I guess all that is a bit off subject, other than if one is going to pick and choose which animal they think is okay to eat and which is too precious, they may want to look into how they are raised, like Meghane does. I'm sorry, I just got a bit carried away and got judgemental. I didn't mean to do that.

Sally

Some people say because we have the capacity for compassion, and are more intelligent and can figure other ways out rather than the 'easy' road of chopping up defensless animals.

Will share my story regarding meat. City born and raised. Meat was something bought in a store, wrapped in plastic, sometimes even cooked ready to eat, at times handed to me through a drive up window. The thought of saying grace, giving thanks, never crossed my mind. Fast forward 15 years, living in country, I have now killed animals to eat their meat. Killed, gutted, hung them by their legs, skinned and cut up. A life altering experience for this individual. I now say thanks before most every meal. Regardless of what I eat, I think to myself "this animal gave it's life". Left-overs are seldom thrown away in my home...., you see, I feel an obligation. It's not that I didn't know that the meat was an animal before, of coarse I did, in an abstract kind of way. Something like watching "Gone With The Wind" on a 13" black and white T.V. and then watching it in color on a big movie screen. The story, actors, set, nothing changed; but everything is so different. (Only analogy I can think of at the moment.)

My daughters story: Unlike me, she has been growing up with the understanding that animals are meat. She has seen it up close and personal since before she could walk. When she was 3 1/2 to 4 years old she wanted to know at every meal what animal we were eating, and not only that, but what part of the animal i.e.. leg, back, shoulder, heart, liver, etc.. When we would go to the city and visit with relatives it seemed to make some quite uncomfortable. In fact, once I was asked if I couldn't get her to stop, that her questions weren't appropriate for the dinner table. How sad. How disrespectful to the animal that gave it's life.

oh, there are a few dietary restrictions that go back to ancient times that either make medical sense (like pork and shellfish) and others that only make sense taking cultural context into account (things with exoskeletons, horse meat, that sort of things, which were commonly eaten by the 'dominant' culture that the biblical dietary laws were separating us from)

but mostly?

I think venison's the most obvious modern example - people get all squirrely about the idea of bambi on a plate - they'd rather eat the flesh of a chicken that's never left its cage, and LOOKS like a mad thing with half its feathers missing (which the average consumer never has to see) or that of a cow that just spent the last week of its life half-starved, crowded into a pen, getting to listen to (and smell) its companions being slaughtered just out of sight...

personally, I don't get it - but I grew up with a wide enough range of culinary traditions that my prejudices are just that - prejudices.

We owned horses for 20 years---companions and members of the family. Worst thing I have ever had to do is put a horse down---broken leg---had to do that twice. Once the horse is dead, it is no longer the companion or pet, so why not get some use from the body? Just makes sense to me. I have also owned dogs for most of my life. Putting them down after 20 years of companionship is tough---but the dog or the horse that was a member of our family got much better treatment during their life than if they were in the wild. And a much more humane death when necessary.

I support groups that recommend humane association and care of animals for pets. I do not support groups like PETA that put animals above humans.

As for eating---mainly a curtural thing---East Indians think cows are sacred, some folks think rats and monkeys are sacred. I will eat a cow, but would have to be pretty hungry to eat a rat or monkey.

I've had horse in Russia - didn't think it was great.

I've had mutton and goat - didn't like either one - tough, greasy and stringy. I do enjoy lamb, which i raise.

Love beef and raise cattle too

Had pheasant last night, as Saturday was jr pheasant season and my son shot his first two. At least as good as chicken and i wish I'd been able to bag 2 of my own.

Don't care for rabbit or squirrel, so we won't be hunting those.

Don't duck hunt and wouldn't eat duck in the fanciest 5 star.

REALLY looking forward to some venison - back straps are every bit as tasty as filet mignon.

Elk and bear are tasty if young - pretty tough and gamey otherwise.

Love to fish and eat it whenever possible. If not, it's catch and release.

I've raised sheep and cattle forever. Every year, the kids name the calves and lambs and still manage to sit down to dinner.

Had 2 pigs as 4H projects - mighty fine pork chops from Wilbur and Orville.

Raise chickens for eggs. We'd eat them but it's a pain to clean them myself and I can't see paying the butcher to clean them for me, so we only keep a few layers. I trade the neighbor beef and lamb for chicken and turkey.

Had a nanny for milk and pasture cleaning for years. I don't care for goat meat. Can't beat goat milk soap and cheese, but i never replaced Nan when she died.

I don't buy meat (or in my case, trade meat) unless I personally know the source.

I have horses, dogs and cats and they have jobs as well. Fortunately, i have the financial resources to "put them out to pasture" when they're too old to work. Old Moses still likes to make the rounds when i check the sheep and Thunder still enjoys a quick ride by the kids every now and then, but they aren't expected to do anything. Sometimes i wonder if it would be more merciful to eauthanize them, as it's heart-breaking to see Thunder's tail come up when he spots some barrels and then stumble as he attempts to prance. Growing old gracefully is as hard for animals as it is for humans.

The restrictions on what to eat/not eat are cultural and/or religious. I don't raise horses for consumption because I have other uses for them. It takes a lot more feed to fatten a horse for meat slaughter than it does to fatten a cow. There's a much bigger profit in raising them for rodeo, pleasure rides and dressage and show jumping (I don't, but some certainly do). Beef cattle aren't good for anything other than beef. I have 2 dairy cows and when they don't produce anymore, they go to slaughter for a supply of hamburger (not good for much else as they're older and tougher) Sheep are some of the dumbest animals ever but are certainly also good for wool and I take full advantage of that, but young males get to grace my Easter table.

I've eaten many different things in many different cultures... some of it mighty tasty and some of it on the near side of revolting. In the US, we have a pretty warped sense of what starving actually is...and we forget that not everyone stops by the Piggly Wiggly on the way home. If all I'd had in 2 weeks was a 1/2 cup of rice and some of last falls turnips, Rover would probably start looking pretty tasty. I'd have to be really hungry to ever eat dog and I'd choke down rat first, but i guess if it was a choice between dog and starving, I'd choose dog.

I no longer have any idea what I'm rambling on about. PETA (*shudder*)and hunters caught my eye and I just kept going.

I was unaware that horses were raised for slaughter and that the slaughterhouse in north Texas was accepting horses from questionable sources. I guess I thought people were upset at the fact that it was horses. It just seems a bit odd to me that horses would be more valued than cattle. But this is Texas, the state where people brought a lawsuit against Oprah for dissing hamburger meat.

Regards the way nature works, every itsy bitsy part of an animal that is killed for food by another animal gets used. It's not usually the actual hunter that eats every square inch. The hunter(s) eat what they can, until scavengers come along and eat what they can, and so on. Insects get into the act, and then finally, microbes finish the job. I wouldn't say that anything gets wasted in nature.

Sally

Veal, however, is normally objected to on the basis of the animal's treatment- rather than the age of the critter. Former reports had the animals in tiny pens with odd diets, not seeing the light of day in order to keep the meat as tender as possible. Those conditions may or may not exist today, but many see eating veal as supporting the industry's decision to possibly keep up those inhumane practices.

I personally see far less cruelty in hunting an animal than in farm raising. A hunted animal has a life in a natural environment until it is killed/harvested. A farm raised animal is injected, kept in confined spaces, and lives a life of captivity. That animal also has a far larger impact on the environment than one that is part of the environment (in general, unless we consider introduced, unregulated, and invasive species).

So- is it more human to eat something that was bred to be eaten? Not in my opinion.

Now that's not to say that I WANT to eat cats or dogs or any kind of household pet, but our society is fairly unique in having pets as part of the family. I also don't want to eat bugs, but if I had to choose between Fluffy and grasshoppers, I'd pick the grasshoppers.

To answer the question "Why"?, there are social reasons, cultural reasons, food safety reasons, historical reasons (mixed up with everything else that I just mentioned), and esthetic reasons. I'm not saying those reasons are logical--just that they exist.

I can also tell you that when you are very hungry, your tolerance for eating "icky" or "taboo" items goes WAY up. That might explain why fewer animal parts are wasted and more animal species are eaten in cultures where food is very hard to come by.

Sally

Where do you think the steer manure we use in gardens comes from? Answer: FEEDLOTS, where cattle are raised and grown out for slaughter.

Chicken and turkey manure? POULTRY FARMS, again as a byproduct of meat production.

The best gardens I've ever seen or had were planted with generous libations of rabbit manure, from my herd, which is raised for MEAT. I'd add in the guts and hides too, but I feed the guts and other non-human-edible bits to the dogs and tan the hides. Nothing is wasted if I can possibly help it, and I'm not the only one working this way.

Most folks who kill and consume animals have the deepest respect for them. Personally, I think that EVERY high school student should have to raise an animal, or group of animals, for slaughter, and then be a participant or observer when they are slaughtered. It's not sick, and it IS humane.

PETA's videos are a bunch of BS, heavily edited and manipulated to show what they want you to see. Speaking of rabbit slaughter, they claim that the rabbits are 'routinely' conscious when skinned and so forth--wrong! They are stunned or dead before any cuts are made; they have to be, or you CANNOT get anything done! And decapitation is usually done first, before skinning, and if you believe they can live through that...well....

Anyway, back to garden connections.

Some animals are used for meat, have been for practically forever, and others have not--they are traditionally and culturally immune from consumption. The horse provides labor, for tillage, manure for fertilization, and when deceased, can either provide food and leather or fertilizer as it decays.

Since we have gained so much leisure time and luxury, these donations from the horse and dog and cat are no longer essential for our survival--and in many places, the animals then become pets, honored on the basis of what they have done in the past and valued as companions. Their subsequent use as food becomes socially repugnant and seems needless.

Consider, however, that zoos rely heavily upon horsemeat for its nutritional qualities in feeding their carnivorous residents; consider also that many of the plants which slaughter horses have increased surveillance for stolen or wild horses; and consider that there are ranches where horses are raised for specific purposes and there are animals which simply don't make the grade--and are sent to slaughter in prime health and produce healthful food product as a result.

Were we to cease animal consumption completely (the end desire of PETA, HSUS, etc), we would have a very hard time producing enough vegetation to keep our population alive and healthy. Without animal byproducts, that garden just won't produce very well.

Just some thoughts...

OFI

AMEN to that! We had a proposition on our ballot in AZ today that was about the humane treatment of veal and pigs. I agree 100% that they should not be kept in tiny pens and not aloud turn around or lay down. I don't eat veal either.
However my point is we have ONE commercial farm in AZ that raises animals in this manner, and it's pigs for Jimmy Dean. The PETA video, which I bought hook line and sinker being the animal lover I am, showed the pigs in the tiniest little cages and not able to turn around or lay down and filthy.
Our news station that does investigative reporting went to check out the "horrid" conditions and found that the pigs did have a good amount of room. Could move around and walk in small pens and were able to lay down. I don't know where or when PETA shot it's video but it does make you wonder how much they say is true sometimes.
They have lost a lot of creditability in my eyes with this campaign and I wasn't a big fan of them to begin with!

I do have to admit that I still voted yes on the proposition in the event that future commercial farm interests decide that Arizona is the place to abuse animals. But the way PETA ran the add it was all about animals raised commercially and made it sound like there were hundreds of farms all ready here!
I wonder how many people took the time to know the truth?

I don't use animal by products on my garden and it does quite nicely, thank you. I have a compost heap. No animal by products in there! Just leaves, sticks, grass and vegetable waste from the kitchen.

When you look at how much grain and water it takes to raise cattle until they're slaughtered...and how much pesticide, fertiliser and water it takes to raise the grain to feed the cattle....and the hormones and anti-biotics it takes to get a beef to market...

Meat production is a really inefficient and wasteful use of resources, if you want to look at it that way. Moreso than crop farming. Most of the crop farming in the US is done to produce feed for livestock..if all that land was turned into production for human use, who knows?

And that is very commendable...and also very rare. 99% of beef is finished on feedlots. Most of them have never had grass. I've spent many hours looking for grass-fed beef in my area. When I find it, I'll eat it. But not until.

The farmer right down the street from me raises dairy cattle, and grows his own timothy and alfalfa. And he uses the manure to fertilise his fields...I know, because I can smell it, LOL! He's a nice guy, and I'm glad he practices sustainable agriculture.

There are three horse slaughterhouses in the USA.
They are foreign owned.

The meat is shipped overseas. We don't eat horses in the USA. We do eat beef, should we open a cow slaughter house in India where they are sacred? I think not.

Stolen horses ARE slaughtered on a routine basis. Even horses with microchips and tatoos.

The horses are not raised for meat. It would cost far too much compared to what the killer buyers pay.

Horse meat for pet food is from rendering plants. This is where sick, old, injured or dead horses go.

Healthy young horses go to slaughter for human consumption for Japan, France and Belgium. The three slaughter houses are foreign owned and are also causing environmental and local problems.

Horses are not raised specifically for meat in the USA. It costs far more than $300-$400 dollars to produce and raise a foal.

$300-$400 is an average killer buyer price. Not a bad profit on a truck load of stolen horses though....

Circle of Love
By Maria Sears
Before my husband and I purchased a small ranch in Idaho that included fifty head of Herefords, I never really knew much about cows. I used to think they were large, not particularly bright creatures who spent peaceful uncomplicated lives grazing in green fields or napping in the sunshine. But once we started living on the ranch, I started to pay closer attention and learned to appreciate them on a deeper level.
I soon began to recognize the cows by their different markings, personalities and habits. I gave them all names, and they became my "pets" - in a wild sort of way. Two of my favorites were Freckles and her calf, Spunky.
Freckles first came to my attention early one spring. The cattle had spent the winter months on our lower pasture along the river, but when the cows started calving, we decided to move them to one of the upper pastures near our house. The move was uneventful, except that we discovered that one cow was missing. It was Freckles. We weren't alarmed because we assumed that she had probably given birth and was hiding in the thick patch of willows near the water. The birthing process is a private matter for most cows, and when labor begins they are quite clever at finding a hiding place away from the rest of the herd.
As we got near the bottom of the hill, Freckles came running out of the willows and headed across the field. A look of fury flashed in her eyes, as if to scold us for intruding. Her belly was considerably smaller since the last time I had seen her and her udder was swollen with milk. These were both signs that she had calved. My husband went after Freckles to coax her back, and I headed toward the willows to find her baby.
The calf was so still I almost tripped over her. Nestled in a soft hollow of spring grass was the most beautiful little creature I had ever seen. The calf was a dark russet color with a white spot on her forehead and a tuft of white at the end of her tail. She was curled up like a fawn and looked up at me with enormous brown eyes. I slowly knelt down and spoke softly as I reached out to stroke her velvety coat. She quivered under my touch, but she didn't move. She wouldn't even raise her head. She couldn't have been more than twenty-four hours old, but she had already learned how to stay put and be quiet.
My husband managed to guide Freckles back toward the willows and when she saw me she bellowed for her baby. In a flash, the little calf understood the command, bolted from her nest and ran bawling toward her mother. We stood back to watch as they came together. The calf reached for the comfort of warm milk while her mother licked her reassuringly.
Once they had calmed down, we walked them up the hill to join the herd. With her head held high and her tail bobbing like a pump handle, the calf pranced behind her mother. We laughed and christened her Spunky - a fitting name, as she turned out to be our liveliest and most mischievous calf that spring.
As we got closer, the other cows started calling to Freckles. They bellowed back and forth, again and again, as if to guide her back to their new location, and they were all waiting by the fence when we arrived. As soon as we closed the gate behind them and moved away, they surrounded Freckles, and with nodding heads and soft lowing sounds they gently greeted her and inspected Spunky. Apparently satisfied, they slowly drifted apart and began to graze. A sense of peace and harmony was restored to their little community.
I was puzzled the first few times I saw a single cow surrounded by several little calves, until I learned that cattle herds establish unique baby-sitting co-ops. Once again, I was amazed at their ability to communicate. How did they decide who would be the baby-sitter? And how did the mothers tell the babies not to move while they wandered away, sometimes for several hours?
One day, I glanced out my kitchen window and was astounded to see Red Man, our huge twenty-five-hundred-pound bull, lying in the pasture with a group of calves. The cows had somehow persuaded him to baby-sit that day. At least fifteen tiny calves surrounded Red Man, all of them content to lie lazily in the sun, except for Spunky, who had obviously grown tired of nap time. She slowly stood up. Her rump came up first, followed by a long stretch extending to the tip of her tail. Then she shook her head, flicked her tail and seemed about to go romping across the field when Red Man lifted his massive head and gave her a disapproving glare. I watched, entranced. Would the tiny calf defy the giant Red Man? Not that day. Spunky gazed at the bull for a long moment, and then her legs seemed to melt back into the ground, once again the docile baby waiting for her mother to return.
One night, we woke up to the terrifying sounds of a pack of coyotes on the hunt. Barking and howling, they raced down the hill behind our ranch and into the pasture where the cattle had settled for the night. Young calves were their favorite prey. The cattle stampeded in their panic to escape from the pack. My husband grabbed the shotgun and ran outdoors. A few shots fired into the air were enough to scare the coyotes, and we stood there listening to them yip and howl as they disappeared into the night. The herd had been badly frightened and their restless bawling went on for hours. But other than that, all was well.
Or so we thought. At daybreak we went out to check. All the animals were unharmed - except for one. We found a dead calf near some rocks, apparently killed in the stampede. My heart nearly stopped beating when I saw the white spot on its forehead, but it wasn't Spunky. It was a younger calf with similar markings. We carried the little body close to the gate and covered it with a tarp until we could bury it.
A while later, I heard a cow bawling. I looked around and saw the mother of the dead calf nudging it with her nose. Then I watched as Freckles and eleven other cows slowly walked over and formed a circle around them. ; One by one they began to bawl with the mother. The low, mournful tones of their lamentation drifted across the land as the morning sun rose.
As I watched them, I, too, became a member of their circle; I was one with them in their grief for the little life that had been, and was no more.
The cows stayed in that circle of love for over an hour. Finally, the mother backed away, turned and walked to a far corner of the pasture. Only then did the others end their vigil and move quietly away.
I stood rapt and motionless in the now-silent pasture, feeling the depth of their compassion in my own heart. Filled with awe and admiration for these animals, I turned back towards the house - that rare and tender scene firmly etched in my mind.

This doesn't change my mind as far as cattle being a food stock, though.

The stolen thing is just propaganda, many horses go to slaughter because their useful life is over; all they can do is stand around to be neglected. I see it all the time, too many owners have too many horses and they cant take care of them. Any horse sale/auction will have roughly 50% of the horses with physical problems or mental problems which render them unusable for the general horse buying public. These horses travel from sale to sale with little possibility of a good future, they would undoubtedly be better off made into feed or food.

I can think of some people that would fit into that category, too.

People DO NOT eat sick, old, unfit horses! The horses being slaughterd for human consumption are young and healthy.

A old crippled horse in Washington isn't going to be trucked all the way to Texas to be slaughtered for human consumption. It would be euthanized and rendered locally. Nothing would change.

Are all horses that go to slaughter for human consumption supposed to be stolen?

No, not all but there have been ongoing problems with the 3 slaughterhouses not scanning for microchips or looking for tattoos or checking paperwork. They have been accused of flat out looking the other way and slaughtering horses known to be stolen. They don't want old, crippled or diseased horses, they want young healthy ones.

And what does it matter if the slaughter houses are foreign owned? Plenty of other businesses in the US are as well. It's not illegal as far as I know.

Not illegal. The point is that American's don't eat horse meat. Most American's don't approve of horses being eaten by people. American's don't profit from horse meat. American horses may be slaughtered illegally. Also, because the plants are foreign owned, enforcing regulations has been a problem.

These are nasty disgusting polluting places. The towns where they are located don't want them there.

Because we, people in the US, dont generally eat horse, is that a reason for not slaughtering them and selling the meat to the Italians, french, etc? Goat was not eaten by too many a few years ago, it is now a growth industry.
There are plenty of stolen cattle and sheep butchered annually also. Because some people only think of horses as pets there is no valid reason they should not be thought of as a source of meat and as a useful animal also, farm work, dray, race, ranch, etc. A few years ago many young and healthy horses were sold for meat, many were yearlings and 2 yr olds.