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Pit Bulls, for or against?

Posted by bumblebeez (My Page) on
Fri, Feb 9, 07 at 19:07

I am truly surprised how many people love pit bulls. While I'm sure I could equally find a pit bull loving, the thought that they might lunge for my face, a child, well, fill in the blank! at any given moment, makes me want them outlawed.

Yes, yes, I know it's all about the owner and training, but how come most owners are scum? I know some of you are exemplary but still, would you leave your child unattended with even the most gentle of pit bulls? I wouldn't hesitate to leave a baby with a dachshund or lab.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I wouldn't leave an unattended baby with any dog or cat (or any other animal for that matter) regardless of breed. Statistically, I believe that the Jack Russell Terriers are more likely to bite someone than a pit bull. In fact, I believe the highest incidents of bites in the US are from labs (probably because they are so popular).

I don't own a pit bull, but, I'd never rule them out as a breed. Most pit bull type breeds that I'm aware of are extremly affectionate and very people friendly. Pit bull breeds were bred to be animal agressive, not people agressive.

I think one of the reasons that dogs like pit bulls, rotties, etc., get such bad raps is because they are popular and are often poorly bred, and purchased by people who have no desire to do even the minimal training. I don't think most owners are scum, I think many owners are lazy. Having a well trained dog takes work. They need to be walked every day, they need to have constant reinforcement to follow commands, they need to be made to obey. I think any domesicated animal that is highly frustrated can be potentially dangerous.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Pits have a bad rap because their bodies are "built" so that they make great fighting dogs for unscrupulous people. A Pit Bull raised in a loving home from a pup is no more likely to be aggressive than any other breed. Funny story...THE ONLY DOG I have ever been bitten by is a tea cup Chihuahua!!!!!!!!!!! TRUE!!!!!!!!!!! I have seen a Cocker bite a small child once. These are certainly not dog breeds known for aggressive behavior.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I rarely read about dog attacks involving jack russells or cocker spaniels. Pit Bull attacks are in the paper frequently.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

JRTs may bite and give a puncture wound. A Pitbull bites, does not let go, shakes the prey and lacerates what it does not pull off of the body. That is why you don't hear of JRT bites. They are not devastating. Pitbull bites are.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I had a pit bull knock my two year old daughter down a flight of stairs.
I also was going to visit my mom at her apartment complex THAT DID NOT ALLOW PIT BULLS. Yet,many of the residents broke this rule outright and practically flaunted it.
One day I had just gotten my baby out of the car,when a man walking 3 pits lost control of his leashes and they headed right towards me.
I bolted shielding my baby in my arms up the sidewalk as fast as I could. My mom looked out the window and saw what was happening and opened the door for me.I got in right in the knick of time as we had to literally SLAM the door on their faces! As we slammed the door they begun to lunge for my baby's HEAD!!!!
I have never been so scared in my whole life.If my mom hadnt of been there...I dont even want to think about it.

A family also owned one since the time it was a tiny pup. It was around the older dog since it was born,and they were socialized together.It didnt stop the pit from killing the older dog though years later.
I have just personally had too many bad expriences with this kind of dog...So,I'm not for them. I'am glad many places forbid them because I dont care how nice they seem,they arent to be trusted.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

The pit bulls I know are friendly and owned by people in the veterinary field, not thugs and druggies. A couple of the pits were taken from really bad situations too, but are just as nice as any golden retriever.

I will never be convinced it is wise or prudent or useful to ban certain breeds. What needs to be done is have better enforcement of animal fighting laws, animal cruelty laws, and leash laws. Being in the vet field for the last 12 years, I have been attacked by more Cocker Spaniels and cats than everything else combined, including pits and I see a LOT of them. Yet nobody wants to ban cockers or cats.

Which isn't to say that pits are for everyone- they're not. But neither are any breed. People should do their research before getting a dog of any breed to be sure that it matches their lifestyle. They should also research reputable breeders and other good sources of dogs (rescues with foster homes, shelters with behavior assessments, etc) before bringing a particular dog of any breed home. Buying a backyard bred dog of any breed without proper socialization and with questionable parents is not a good idea, yet that is where most pits come from. It is no wonder that so many are not trustworthy.

BTW, a cocker spaniel gave me the biggest scare I've ever had. I had it on the exam table and the evil thing bit the hell out of my arm without provocation- I was simply waiting until I could get another assistant to help me start its physical exam. It then proceeded to lunge at my face, at which point I grabbed the dog and put it on the floor. And it tried to jump up and still bite my face. I took the dog back to the owner and told them to take it back to wherever it came from. They said the dog was on its last day at the shelter and if they took it back it would be euthanized. I said "good." The owners kept the dog and consulted a behaviorist but refused to do any of the things she suggested. Since then, the female owner has been hospitalized twice from being bitten by this dog. They have to bring it to the vet drugged off its gord and muzzled or we won't see it. They can never allow the dog out of the crate when they have company. They can't walk the dog in public without a muzzle. So yeah, I hate cocker spaniels. But I would never say all cockers are aggressive and should be banned, even though a far greater percent of cockers than pit bulls I've seen are aggressive.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

See my reply #44 on the Pets Forum under ARGH!(please read,
I could use some help). No time now to retype.

No child should be left unattended with any dog.

Jan


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Some breeds were bred for agressive behaviour traits when they were developed, some display those traits/instincts more than others. It seems that many people who choose to keep these types of animals have an image problem of their own which they try to correct by having some sort of tuff animal in their environment.
I dont know 1 responsible breeder of Pit Bulls, Rotts, or other macho breeds, mostly a bunch of loser types who just mate their dogs randomly for a few quick bucks. I am sure there are good breeders of all the tuff dogs but they usually dont advertise in the want ads and most will sell to a more reliavble customer base. Breeds of animals dont need to be banned but there are quite a few humans who should be!


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I rarely read about dog attacks involving jack russells or cocker spaniels. Pit Bull attacks are in the paper frequently.

I think one of the reasons that pit bull's make the news is that they can do significantly more damage when they bite someone. Most Jack Russells are around 15-20lbs (tops, and some are closer to 10lbs), so when they bit just because of their size they are less likely to do damage. When a pit bull or rottie bites, they can do some major damage. It isn't that they are more likely to bite, rather when they do they are more likely to do damage.

I don't believe in breed bans. They don't work. Pit Bulls are banned in many of the surrounding towns in my area, and it hasn't changed a thing, except that most responsible owners are forced to move or give their animals up. Irresponsible owners still get these types of dogs and own them.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

"I wouldn't hesitate to leave a baby with a dachshund or lab."

Children should NEVER be left unattended with any breed. Two examples, the woman in Europe who received the face transplant received damage from her lab. What about the baby that just recently had its toes chewed by a puppy?
Leaving a child unattended with dogs is a recipe for disaster that will ultimately be blamed on the dog.

I have worked with many breeds over the years and have received more bites from cockers, shih tzus, chihuahuas, lhasas, schnauzers, maltese, and yorkies.
Breeds that have been quick to try and attack me are huskies, shar peis, malamutes, spitz, and chows.

I also have a client that had to have her nose sewn back on to her face thanks to her JRT.

I don't think banning a breed is the answer, I think more responsible owners and breeders would be the key to obtaining the ideal breed of any dog.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I think people who breed ANY dog for a quick buck are losers who are causing many problems in the breeds! Look at all the German Shepherd dogs, Labs, and Goldens with hip dysplasia; all the King Charles Cavalier Spaniels with heart disease; all the nasty little biting horrible Cocker Spaniels with terrible allergies, all the Yorkies with PDAs, etc! Responsible breeding would have eliminated those traits, but they persist and in some breeds it's getting worse because of irresponsible breeding. It's no different with aggressiveness in Pit Bulls.

Frankly I think that if the AKC recognized them and allowed them to show, there would be a much greater demand for high-quality breeding of Pit Bulls. Since they can't be registered here in the US, irresponsible breeding is ruining them because nobody sticks to the breed standard. In the UK, Pit Bulls are disqualified from show for viciousness. There is no demand here for properly-tempered Pit Bulls, and that I think is part of the problem.

It is easy to find good breeders of dogs that can be shown such as Rottweilers and other "bully breeds." Just go to a kennel with successful dogs!


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

As far as leaving a child unattended, to me that would be if I had a baby in a swing, in the same room with me, I was making dinner, and the dog was sleeping on the floor within 10' or so but not smack next to the child. I don't think that's an issue with many breeds and commonly goes on all the time. The child is only being watched with one eye.

With a pit bull though, I would be afraid that the wiggling child would make it think "wild animal" and tear it to pieces. A puppy chewing a babies toes off is way to close to the child to not be watched. And any breed can be provoked to bite.

I grew up with two brothers and we always had a cat and dog(s) inside with us. Over the years it was a dachshund, cocker spaniel, collie, boxer and cock-a-poo. We roughhoused with these dogs, they slept in our beds, and were part of the family. They never bit us, ever, and they socialized beautifully with all the other subdivion dogs.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

A Pit Bull raised in a loving home from a pup is no more likely to be aggressive than any other breed.

Truer words were never spoken. Dogs are very much like children. You get out of them that which you put in. ANY breed of dog can be trained to be mean, and any dog if not given love and attention can become mean on its own.

Just a quick FYI-- do you know which breed of dog has the most attacks listed against its breed? I guarantee you, it's not a pit, rottie, dobie, shepard, malmute-- ANY of the ones you'd think.

It's the yellow lab.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I don't think it's as much that more pits are aggressive, it's the fact that they can inflict horrendous damage by their attacks and that they are Terriers and therefore tenacious in whatever they are doing.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I'm sorry,but in APARTMENT complexes~ ANY aggressive dog should absolutely be banned! People are forced to live in a small area together and many people do not feel comfortable being around these dogs.

It the person has an actual home and a yard,then it should be up to them whether or not to own one.But there SHOULD be guidelines they have to follow,and they SHOULD have to pay more on insurance policys.

I still would never own one. As an earlier poster said,they may not bite as often as some littler dogs,but their bites can be DEADLY.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

All dogs bite. Plan accordingly.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Yes, all dogs bite, and probably will bite another dog or human in its lifetime (unless its a hermit). I have a sweet little dachshund - but I wouldn't trust him or any dog around a child or baby alone. Have you ever seen a doxie's teeth? Yikes.

I'm tired of "my dog doesn't bite" "my dog is nice" etc. Of course most dogs are very sweet animals - that's why we love them. But why are there so many dog bites reported every year? It's because "my dog doesn't bite" turns into "my dog never bit before!"

"Pit bulls" and large dogs do get more attention when they bite because they can maim and kill with that bite. Most reported dog bites are to children, by their own dogs or dogs they know. Many bites are to the face and head. I personally would never keep a dog that could possibly do that kind of damage.

Any dog can bite at any time. Know it. Live it. As dog lovers you should take this to heart. I love joepyeweed's advice - "plan accordingly."


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

"Just a quick FYI-- do you know which breed of dog has the most attacks listed against its breed? I guarantee you, it's not a pit, rottie, dobie, shepard, malmute-- ANY of the ones you'd think.

It's the yellow lab."

Very interesting, please provide the source of this information.

Never under any circumtances (phone distraction, answer the door, vacuum, 10 ft. away), etc., leave any child alone with a dog. All dogs have the propensity to bite despite the breed. Put the dog out/away for a minute until you have time to pay proper and full attention.

Do you think the majority of dog bites are expected or anticipated? No, they aren't.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

The AKC does have standards for this dog, only they call it a Staffordshire terrier. All the same I still wouldn't own one...

Here is a link that might be useful: American Staffordshire Terrier


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

All dog breeds can be aggressive. The difference is that for some breeds, when they bite, their attack instinct kicks in and they don't let go.

The trick with a known fighting breed is to never let the dog's behavior escalate into aggression. And this is, IMHO, a failure on the owner's part to recognize the pre-attack body language that says, "I'm thinking about getting angry here..." By the time these dogs attack, it's too late to say "No!".

A dog should NEVER be left alone with a child. Ever.

Here is a link that might be useful: Statistics-Link


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Pits have a very bad reputation, mainly because of the incredible strength they have in their jaws, which allows them to hold on to whatever is in their mouths without letting go.

ANY dog CAN bite given the opportunity. The question is WILL they bite. Lots of this issue depends on their living circumstance.

I was bitten on the face by a Basset that I knew very well. The dog was frightened by a loud noise when I was petting her, and she lunged up and bit my upper lip (very nice scar, thank you very much). Fortunately, it was not a disfiguring event like I have seen and heard so much about.

I love dogs beyond description, have three large ones. BUT I never want to go through the process after a bite again. The medication required to prevent infection is awful, over shadowed tasting food properly and gave me lower g.i. issues for about 10 days. The dog had to be quarantined, the owners were put on notice by county officials, and things were a mess.

In a word, AGAINST.

SG


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I am not against any breed. I am against novice handlers obtaining breeds that require experienced handlers. I am against irresponsible breeding and breeding for aggression.

The Pit Bull is one of my favorite breeds. With the proper handler the excel beyond immagination, with a wonderful tempermant. The problem with the Pit is that they were breed & trained for "gameness", which lowers the animals inhibitions towards agression.

cindyb_va, it is interesting to note that Pits tend not to show the typical "signs" of preattack agression, nor do they respond to typical dog language. A Pit, by instinct, will not necessarily growl or snarl before attacking as a guard dog might (i.e. german shepard). And the Pit definitely does not need to be provoked. As for dog language, Pits have been know to disembowel other dogs that roll on their back in submission.

Whereas most guard dogs will bite and hold the Pit has been breed to inflict as much damage as possible by biting, shaking and tearing. BUT REMEMBER, Pits were NOT breed to fight humans. They were breed to fight other dogs. Infact, Pits that went after there handlers / humans were usually put down.

There are many breeds that are not recommeded to be left alone with other dogs. And within that breed there are thousands that break the mold.

Ofcourse, not all Pits have these aggressive tendencies. That is a stereotype which is as ignorant as racial discrimination! In fact, Malcolm Gladwell reported in the New Yorker:

"...the American Temperament Test Society has put twenty-five thousand dogs through a ten-part standardized drill designed to assess a dogs stability, shyness, aggressiveness, and friendliness in the company of people. A handler takes a dog on a six-foot lead and judges its reaction to stimuli such as gunshots, an umbrella opening, and a weirdly dressed stranger approaching in a threatening way. Eighty-four per cent of the pit bulls that have been given the test have passed, which ranks pit bulls ahead of beagles, Airedales, bearded collies, and all but one variety of dachshund. "We have tested somewhere around a thousand pit-bull-type dogs," Carl Herkstroeter, the president of the A.T.T.S., says. "Ive tested half of them. And of the number Ive tested I have disqualified one pit bull because of aggressive tendencies. They have done extremely well. They have a good temperament. They are very good with children." It can even be argued that the same traits that make the pit bull so aggressive toward other dogs are what make it so nice to humans. "There are a lot of pit bulls these days who are licensed therapy dogs," the writer Vicki Hearne points out. "Their stability and resoluteness make them excellent for work with people who might not like a more bouncy, flibbertigibbet sort of dog. When pit bulls set out to provide comfort, they are as resolute as they are when they fight, but what they are resolute about is being gentle. And, because they are fearless, they can be gentle with anybody."

Any dog/litter can be breed for certain attributes. Perhaps, instead of trying to eliminate a breed we should put our energy into elminating irresponsible breeders who breed for strong aggression in their litters.

Personally I would never purchase a pup without having tempermant test results ahead of time. For example, my breeds of choice are terriers and dobermans. I always look for a Doberman with a low prey drive as it will be around my small - med size terriers.

While statistics show that Pits lead in fatal human attacks perhaps this shows how numerous they have become. In my area, the Pit is very sought after by gang type adolescents and young adults.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

the_adams, I sort of agree with your comment about pits not showing signs of aggression. I think they still demonstrate the signs, they are just more subtle than other dogs. The signs are there, you just have to learn how to read your dog.

The reason I linked that article was to show that any dog is capable of aggressiveness and to help people understand that leaving a dog with a child is just a bad idea, regardless of whether the dog is a Spike or a Fluffy.

Cesar Millan (DogWhisperer) is well known for working with these dogs. He divides aggression into three stages. I have seen several shows where he actually shows the owner where stage one is...most of the owners have no clue that their animal is agitated and often wait until stage three to attempt to stop the attack. At that point, the dog is often out of control and with a strong breed, like a pit, nearly impossible to stop.

I do agree that pit bulls and other aggressive breeds need to have better educated and responsible owners than other breeds. I know several pit bulls who live in my 'hood and they are sweet and friendly dogs; but their owners are, without fail, firm and demanding of their pets. In fact, my one year old coonhound mix is "best play friends" with a well mannered pit bull. They wrestle and play bite, and I never worry about it escalating out of control, because the owner is clearly in control of the dog, even when he is not on leash.

I also know several pit bulls who scare the #$@% out of me and I will not even walk my dogs in the vicinity of their houses. These dogs are largely left out in the back yard and are, quite frankly, bored out of their skulls. They never go for walks (no exercise). These dogs are just accidents waiting to happen and every single one of these owners will be shocked when their precious puppy bites someone.

I think there are two types of "bad" pit bull owners; Type A is the person who thinks owning a mean dog is "cool". These are easily spotted because they often have the dog wearing a spiked collar and walk them on a length of steel chain. Type Bs are owners who adopt this type of dogs in an attempt to save it; instead of using discipline, they try to cure the aggression with love. And I follow Mr. Millan''s logic that you cannot cure aggression with love. Whether it is a pit, a lab, or a boxer, dogs need discipline first and foremost.

I guess what I am getting at is it is not the dog, it is the owner. I think dogs that are totally "whacko" and that should be destroyed are a rarity. I also think when a dog bites a human the owner should be held criminally responsible; not the dog, the owner.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Against.

I suspect the lab statistic is because there are more of them.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Pitbulls do bite, not that they are more likely to bite (although I don't know this), and when they do, they kill or maim severely. The chicago trib did a story a few months ago about a boy in the suburbs who was severely maimed by two attacking pit bulls. And a few years ago a woman was killed by the pit bulls. If you live near a big city, you can't go a month without hearing about people being attacked by a "bull" breed dog or a rottweiler.
I also think these dogs are owned by people who raise them to be aggressive. And in urban areas, dog fighters are a fact of life. They raise them to be mean and beat them up to make them attack. Then keep the dogs in apartments with them. Not thinking about what happens when they need to take these dogs out in public. Or if the dogs escape.
I know what you mean about the cocker spaniels. The breed has been destroyed by overbreeding and I have heard several people tell me their cockers are snappy. I know someone who put theirs down for aggressive crazy behavior that is only the product of improper breeding. You can't train that out of a dog.
Statistically I believe there will be more lab bites just because it is the most popular breed. And likely you will have problems with backyard breeders breeding for a quick buck and destroying the integrity of the breed along with that. Inbreeding "crazy" animals cause they are popular.
Face it, the bull breeds have also been destroyed by irresponsible owners and breeders and likely they will never return to a normal status as a pet.
I would and will never own a dog that is even part pit bull.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

just check out the dogs names on a pedigree some time. Many "tuff" names, few names like " lady" or "sir"! Too bad animals have to be used to help abet an image!

Pit bulls/Rotts and tattoos, chains, bald heads, fu man chu beards, you know, its all about image! lots of losers like the tuff dogs.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

bumblebeez,

I'm one of those who love pit bulls, rotties, Rhodies, dobermans etc. It's the Jack Russel's that make me a bit crazy. My husband and I have a pet friendly cabin rental business in the North Georgia Mountains and many of our furry guests are pits & rotties... mostly rescues. We've not had an agressive one yet.

In my opinion, its the macho thugs that want masculine/mean dogs to compensate for what they personally lack.

Funny story... we were walking our Pekingnese in a park in downtown Atlanta (a kinda rough area of town) and a little boy pointed to our black peke and said "look mommy, a rottweiler!


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Here ya go: a timely pit bull story:

Feb. 15, 2007:
MEMPHIS, Tenn. -- Two pit bull dogs ripped off a man's left hand and badly mauled his right arm before other people were able to beat the dogs away.
"I couldn't believe I wasn't dead," James Chapple said from his hospital bed. "I'm going to church every day when I get out of here and talk to the man upstairs."
Chapple, 59, had just gotten off a bus and was walking home on Feb. 9 when the dogs ran out from an auto repair business, knocked him down and started biting.
In a bedside interview Wednesday, he said he yelled for help and one pedestrian grabbed a stick to hit the dogs but was unable to get them to stop.
"I was kicking and screaming at them to let me go, but they kept dragging me -- they had my hand and wouldn't let go," Chapple said.
He passed out and didn't wake up until he was in an ambulance. Doctors had to amputate his lower left arm, but they saved his right arm. Chapple also suffered bites on his legs and one ear.
Memphis Animal Services captured the dogs and will euthanize them, authorities said.
Charles Lawson, who co-owns the business, said the dogs were guarding the shop and belong to his partner. He said he didn't know how the dogs got out, but declined to comment further.

Copyright 2007, The Associated Press


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Pit Bulls, for or against? AGAINST

I simply don't get why anyone would get any "bully" breed. What qualities do they have? I haven't actually heard what characteristics they have that other dogs don't have. Hundreds of thousands of dogs are euthanized every year, including sweet-tempered mixes... why deliberately get a bully type?


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I think it all comes down to responsibility. Our boxer pit mix could be agressive. He'll snarl at the little dog sometimes. We know his warning signs, and we keep an eye on them. I never leave the two alone when I leave the house (also because she gets destructive when she gets left alone, too) and we would never allow him to be around/alone with kids. A) because he IS scary looking. Kids are frightened by him and thats a bad start. B) because he's never been around them. We NEVER let people pet him if he seems uneasy and we will put him away from people. My cats have bitten me, and He's never bitten me, he's got his mouth around my hand and then given me kisses. I dont THINK he'd ever bite, but I'm not going to lay money on it. Any kind of dog can bite. But to be honest, I can see my beagle attacking long before he would. Save that he's getting old and grumpy.

I don't think he'd ever hurt a child. That isn't why we lock him up. But how horrible would I feel if he ever did?? Why should I make people feel uncomfortable in my home because of my dog?? I would feel bad for him too, we would have to put down our family pet who's been around for ever. So if we remove him from situations where he may ever be tempted, we're saving someone else and HIM.

People are so responsible with other things to do with children or people around them, I don't see why some don't take dogs as serious. You'd never put your kid in the drivers seat of a car that was running, or had the keys in..why would you allow your kid to be with ANY animal that could possibly get aggressive?

And I agree that a lot of the bad rep IS because a lot of the people who buy the bully breeds, buy them for the wrong reason. They want the tough, mean menacing dog. They teach them to be mean and menacing. Some might think its funny to teach their dog to growl at everyone they see and not realise that you're telling them people are bad, and to attack. Would my dog attack an intruder?? Indefinately. I don't doubt it one bit. Would my beagle?? Most likely. My cat would too. My cat growls when anyone comes to the door, puffs up and hisses til they're in the house. We have never EVER taught him to 'attack' anything or anyone, but we know his temperment, and I can honestly say if someone broke in, they better hope they didnt break into his bedroom. But thats why we keep him locked up at night, on the room off of ours. He couldnt get to anyone who broke in, unless we let him go after them.

It's all about responsibility. Any big dog has the ability to kill or maim someone, if they really wanted to. What the owners do to prevent it, is whats important. The thing I hate the most is all those yappy, nippy little dogs that bite everyone and everything and the owners think its okay because they're little and cant do much damage. Until their kids lose an eye, or the tip of their nose. Just because they can't kill, doesn't mean they should be allowed to bite.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

jancarkner, I am assuming that in your "bully" breed genralization you would include the Doberman Pinscher? You said hundreds of dogs are euthanized every year including sweet tempered ones. Why would you assume the ALL bully breeds are not sweet tempered?

One of my Dobermans, Harley, which I adopted through rescue is the perfect example of why you are wrong. We think he may have been abused. Now, when I mention that my 100 pound Doberman was abused some may cringe. But, interestingly enough most Dobermans respond the oppisite to abuse then one would expect. They become more scared and fragile then they already are. You see, Dobermans are a very sensitive breed, they don't like loud noises and things of that nature. It is very common for one to respond as mine does and go outside to to get away from banging pots & pans or the vacuum.

In addition, to this day he lets my 9 pound Minature Pinscher assume alpha role. If Harley does something such as accidently step on the Min Pin's foot he will bring his head to the ground so that the Min Pin can correctively bite him! In addition, his favorite paymate in the house is our Jack Russell, Phoebe, (he doesn't like playing with large dogs). He is excedingly gentle with her. In fact, it is Phobe who will get too rough and make him cry!

Obviously, my "bully" breed doesn't fall under any genralizations. Nor would most Dobermans, they are such gemtle creatures that got a bad rap in the 70's from movies and because they were being used as junk yard dogs.

Unfortunatly, the Pit Bull is sought after by less desirable people who want to make the dog mean. Which ofcourse leads to breeders who will breed for aggressiveness. I also think it is important ot remember that the Pit Bull was originally breed for dog fighting, obviously not a dog for a novice dog handler.

Personally, I really hate genralizations of this nature, especially if you haven't actually owned a "bully" breed.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

the adams: It's funny, but I don't lump dobermans in with bully breeds. I'll have to think why that is! I adore dobermans, the only ones I've seen are intelligent, good-tempered, sleek & beautiful,well-trained. I'd love to get one (without the cropped ears, for a softer look). I guess part of it is that dobes are not longer *fashionable* with the type of person who messes up the breed, so the good qualities shine through. You've got me thinking, and that's a good thing.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Whenever a breed becomes popular it gets ruined by unscrupulous people who breed them for only $$ and not the love of the breed. Like cocker spaniels, dalmations, collies, irish setters, german shepherds, beagles, and all those other once popular breeds...
Only the actions of dedicated breeders will bring those breeds back to normal health and pet status.
I think that must happen with the bull breeds. If you are truly serious about owning one, you would have to get it from a good breeder. Not get a street dog, I personally would never take that chance with a big breed like a pit bull or a german shepherd or a doberman where early socialization is so crucial to their behavior.
The fact that dobes are not fashionable any more is a good thing for dobe lovers!


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

We adopted a doberman-rottweiler cross because the owner in town had to find him a home. Kids teased the dog and it was making him aggressive. He was never aggressive when we had him. He'd come in the house for a visit and let the little ones crawl all over him, pull on his tongue, probe his ears, etc. He'd just lay there and play like a dead dog except for wagging his tail. He didn't like it when ExH's excon loser friends came over. Wouldn't let them out of the car. Which was great because I was usually home alone with the little kids.

He also protected me when the ex was beating and choking me. Duke took him down and held his teeth on ex's throat until he stopped struggling. Not long after that ex shot Duke while I was at work.

I also had a rottweiler after my divorce. Mom bought him for me for protection. He was a sweetheart and very loyal. He had been raised well by his breeder.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I have nothing against Pitt Bulls, just the owners who are irresponsible and stupid. In the end the dog suffers. Just today I was outside on my front lawn with my 19 year old mixed terrier and a neighbor's cat was walking with us. The house just next door has company over who owns a pitt bull. I've seen this dog since he was a pup and he's a people dog. He was in the back yard and spotted the cat walking with me and the dog went balistic. He was trying to jump the short page fence and then he realized their was a box next to the fence, he jumped on top of it and just as I realized he was going to come over the fence for the cat I ran and blocked him, yelling for him to get down. I didn't realize anyone was home and thank God the dog's owner came out when he heard me scream. I told him the dog was coming over the fence. He's a young, ignorant boy and just looked at me like I'd fallen from the sky!! Shaken and now afraid for other animals I told the home owner about his kids friends' dog and what almost happened. He was also upset at the prospect of the dog getting out and hurting someone or something. He said he'd make sure the dog never came back to visit because he didn't want to be held liable for anything the dog might do while on his property. I told him that was a smart move. To get back to the ignorant owner. How did I know he was ignorant and irresponsible, here's how. Firstly, the dog didn't have a collar or tag on him. Secondly, the dog was not neutered. Thirdly, he put this dog outside in an unfamiliar yard and didn't even check that it was secure. The unfortunate thing for this dog is because his owner is ignorant and non caring about what this dog is capable of, the dog will end up either euthanized after it hurts or kills something or at the very least the dog will be forced into an enclosure and it will be necessary he be muzzled whenever he is off his property. We have dangerous dog laws in my city. It's not breed specific and goes for any pet who gets out and hurts a human or animal. I guess it's time for me to address my public officials again about adopting the mandatory spay/neuter law for animals, especially large animals who have the strength and propensity to hurt someone.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I would personally never own one.

No dog should ever be loose, but I would much rather see a different breed coming at me down the street besides a pit bull.

We had a neighbor that had no common sense when it came to his pit bulls. He was sued by one neighbor after one of his pits went into their yard and killed their cat. That dog had to be put down. He added an additional dog to the one he still had.

One day we were out in the front yard and our son was playing in the yard when one of the neighbors pits came after our cat through our yard toward our young son. You can imagine my horror seeing this. Fortunately the dog was not after him, but our cat. We watched this dog chase our cat down the street where it pulled itself over a 6 foot fence to chase the cat over into a yard. Evidently he just gummed the cat as it was going over and didn't get a good bite. Our cat was severely bruised, but not dead.

A dog with the power to pull itself over a fence, along with a bite that won't let go can do a lot of damage. This guys dogs use to climb over their fence all the time and get out to roam the neighborhood.

It is my opinion pit bulls should be house dogs for families that want them, but only allowed in its own yard with supervision, or on a leash when out. I am a dog lover, but I would never own this breed or allow a my child to be in a home with one. If something goes wrong the price is just too high. I know they can be nice dogs. My niece has one that is very nice, but the risk is just too great for me.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Any dog can bite. I do not agree with breed specific legislation. I do think that anti dog fight legislation needs to be passed and enforced. Dog fighting is a horrible problem in many areas.

There are many breeds of dogs that are aggressive towards other dogs or other animals.

Many breeds were developed to hunt or to fight.

Pitbulls are not supposed to be people aggressive. In a dog fight, the handlers are in the ring with the dogs, they have to safely pull them apart. Pits are supposed to be sweet to people and safe with children.

Unfortunately, recently bad people have popularlized them and bred and trained them for people aggressiveness.

Years ago German Shepards were in the news as being dangerous and attacking people.

Pitbulls and Rotties are big news right now that is why they are written about. There are over 100,000 dog bites in the US every year according to the Center for Disease Control and most are never written about in the media. Most are the family dog, who isn't neutered biting the family children.

We had a Scottie when I was young that was very dog and cat aggressive. All Terriers are dog aggressive and they are supposed to be. Have you seen them spar in the show ring? I have.

Greyhounds and other sight hounds will go after anything small that moves.

All dogs should be trained and socialized and most all should be neutered but unfortunately, they aren't....


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

For anyone interested the Memphis Commercial Appeal had quit a lengthy story on pit bulls yesterday. You can read it by going to www.gomemphis.com. Scroll to the bottom of the page there is a heading called yesterdays top stories or something like that. Under that the story you are looking for is called Meanace Unleashed. I think some people may be shocked at the way these dogs are treated and it really makes you wonder why more of them don't go bad than they do.

Lisa


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

There was no article,only a "For pitbulls" website.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I think it would be terrible to outlaw an entire breed for any reason, but it happens. The truth is, Pit Bull Terriers can be great dogs. It is equally true that they can be vicious, insecure animals that will attack anything - threat or not. They used to bait bulls. Now, in the worst case scenarios: they guard trailer park meth labs. I won't deny it - it's terribe, but the fact is, IT HAPPENS. Therefore, I am quite patient with folks that fear APBT. They have no way of knowing if they were responisibly bred and raised or not.

I think it might be a good idea to screen APBT owners, and to only encourage responsible breediers. I wish more dog owners specialized their breed choice by their wants/needs/capability. Too many people own APBT for the wrong reasons, and breed them irresponsibly... and they just get cheaper and cheaper. Any Pit that does not conform to temperament and physical/health standards should be spayed/neutered without question. IMPO, I think APBT should have a more defined standard, as well.

Many dogs reported for merciless attacks were later found to be of a different lineage, or mixes - but reported as 'Pit Bulls' because they had a blocky head, and stocky short build.

A neighbor asked my as I walked my Bullmastiff/mix? the other day - "How old is your pit bull?"
HAhaha..... WTF?!
He looks NOTHING like a APBT to me, but this guy was sure he was the real deal. After I insisted he wasn't a Pit but yes, he was about a year old, this guy told me to see a new vet. "Look, I know what a Pit Bull looks like. You need to know what you're dealing with so you can be responsible about it."

*SIGH*

So, yeah: my bottom line. If you have to have a APBT, be sure of your sources before you get one from a breeder, or your ability to keep one contained (if need be) if you adopt.... but I'd prefer not to outlaw an entire breed.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

[IMG]http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y277/LLCOUTY/2006_0801july0021-1.jpg[/IMG]

What`s not to love ?? I use to be afraid of them too, till I gave one a trial period, now I love her .. and so do my friends and neighbors.


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opps try this picture

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y277/LLCOUTY/2006_0801july0021-1.jpg


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

"Now, in the worst case scenarios: they guard trailer park meth labs."

Ummmm nooooo.
In the worst case scenarios an unsocialized pit pull has finally chewed through the last thread in the steel cable securing it to a tree in an unfenced suburban yard where your 10 year old daughter is walking by on her way to school.

IMO meth trailer lab whatevers are a great place for mean dogs. Let them tear the druggies to pieces.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Just for information :-) there are some nice trailer parks! We own a 15 acre one and I'm pretty sure there are no meth labs going on. Definitely no pets..


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Lol, bumble - I certainly didn't intend to generalize trailer parks. I actually worked for a property management company for a while that had several, all nice. (but 'trailer' was a dirty word - they preferred 'mobile home,' thank you! :p)

Quirky - I understand that there are a number of despicable scenarios that come about with inbred, aggravated, deliberately unsocialized APBT. Just an example. ...and for the record, I'm in agreement: down with the druggies.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I think they should be banned.
Because they are dangerous?, no because so many of the people that own them are dangerous!
(I have 2, rescues)


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

That is the main reason I don't even bother with our local shelter anymore. At any given time, they have MOSTLY pit bull and pit bull mix dogs. Not a good mix with young excitable children for sure.

Yes, a lot of people that own these high responsiblity dogs are clueless. cudos to you for doing the rescue dog thing with them. That would be a very hard job.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

A better question would be "why do people get pit bulls?"

And by "get", I mean "buy" and by "buy" I mean from a breeder or petshop. Not an adoption. What does this breed bring to the table? Are they notorious for being sweet, versitile, agile, workers that are easy to train, low risk of unwanted behaviors, healthy and hardy, highly adaptable to modern pethood? What? Huh? Huh what? Do people seek out pitbulls for companionship for a family with young children?

quirky quercus does not understand!
but it's not just pitbulls. I don't understand the fascination with 80-90% of the AKC recognized breeds.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

quirkyquercus, out of curiousity, what dog breeds or crosses do you have/have you had?

(I've had a lab-X, springer spaniel, golden retriever, and labrador retriever -- all very friendly reliable dogs!)


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I think most of the time people get these because someone they know had a litter, they end up with a puppy, have no clue what these dogs are capable of. Many folks breed these specifically to sell to the dog fight circuit.

Or if they don't, that's where they end up, because the backyard breeders ask no questions when someone shows up at their door with the $250 to buy a puppy.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I just watched a documentary called "Off the Chain" About pitbull, and pitbull fighting. It is truly eye-opening to hear what the people who fight dogs actually believe about their 'sport'. Sickening, really.

Pitbulls are fiercly loyal to their owners, and unfortunately a lot of people choose to abuse this trait for various reasoning. Which makes adoption such an iffy thing for a lot of people considering a pitbull, or pitmix. You just never know with pitbulls what their background is.

3 million pitbulls are euthanized in american shelters a year. This doesn't count the pitbulls that die in the rings, are electrocuted or set on fire when they don't live up to their expectations, or the ones who are left to die and suffer because the owners won't take them for vet care after a fight. It really is an awful stat.

I really recommend the documentary for anyone to watch, whether you like or dislike pitbulls. Though some of it is definately not for those who are over emotional, or can't stand to see graphic things. They don't hide much, that's for sure.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I used to not be sure about pits bulls. I had heard all the stories....etc....so I was just not sure. that was before Bailey and her mother, Little Red came to us as a rescue. Little Red was about 4 years old and was a fantastic little gal. We knew we couldn't keep her though (we already had a female Rottie), so we placed her with a family that has 4 kids. two weeks after this family adopted Little Red, she saved the youngest child from a rattlesnake and died in the process. She was bitten many times, but the child was unhurt.

We kept Bailey. Didn't plan too....but she quickly won our hearts. That was two years ago. Bailey is a big part of our family. She is wonderful with my two chihuahua and is a quick learner. She understands SO many commands, and obeys without hesitation. I have owned powerful breeds in the past (Rotties), so I knew it was important for Bailey to be well socialized and well trained. I am amazed at her capacity to learn and her desire to please. She is a muscular, powerful dog, but also terribly gentle with my little dogs. they all share one common food bowl in the house. When the little dogs approach Bailey at the food bowl, she backs up and lets them eat. Bailey's temperment is the best I have ever seen in any dog I have ever known.

Final though. If you ban pits and other "agressive" breeds, the thugs will just adopt another breed for their purposes. I do agree that these are not the dogs for everyone. Small children should never be left alone with any breed of dog, but especially not a breed that has a strong prey drive. That include all herding breeds and all terrier breeds, and most working breeds, among others.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I have always owned dogs, and trained my own. I generally choose mixed breeds, but have owned a pure bred Malamute. One of my present dogs was picked out of the litter 2 years ago by myself, when Louie was 6 weks old. His mother is a chocolate Lab and the owner said the father was a Border Collie. Louie is B/W, so the Border Collie fit.

As Louie got older, it became obvious dad was not a Border Collie---and was in fact a pit bull. Now, pits are illegal in my county/city, so I now know why the owner lied to me.

Louie is the size of a Lab and has the Lab ears and muzzle. But the rest of his head and body are classic pit. He retrieves like a Lab but plays like a pit. He loves soccer---actually blocks shots and my middle grandson and he play soccer a lot. But, he eats the soccer ball eventually. Literally.

I have strict rules about interacting with Louie---no chasing, no wrestling, the dog never gets in a superior position to a person, and any play----fetching/tug of war/etc. must be interrupted periodically so Louie does not fixate. Pit bulls have been bred to ignore pain and fixate on prey---be it another dog, a bull(they were used for bull baiting in pits---hence the name), or possible food.

I found early on in training Louie I have to prevent problems instead of trying to repair them---he sees a cat and goes ballistic in a second---unless I control him before the fact.

Now, I also rescued a German Shepherd/Rottweiler mix who was going to be euthanized because of his uncontrolability. Max went from sleeping to frothing at the mouth barking/attack mode in a second or two. He distrusted men and would growl/bite when anyone attempted to correct him. He was a year and a half old when I brought him home.

Both are watchdogs first---and pets second. I have absolute control when they are on a leash, good control in the house, and fair control outside in the fenced yard off leash. That fair is going to get better, but I do not have a lot of training opportunities.

I would not pick a pit again, I am 60 now and will no longer have the energy to handle them----one must be the Boss Dog---all the time. But, louie is a part of the family, even when he blasted through the chain link fence----yes---through---to get a cat. And even if I cannot leave him outside alone/with Max---Louie gets bored easily and has developed into quite an escapist.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Call me a science geek, but I did a literature search on dog bite incidence in order to address the question about sources. These are peer-reviewed studies by experts in the field. You can also see how they've conducted their studies and decide if they've covered all bases or not.

I personally have no issues with any of the breeds listed, as long as they are bred and trained properly, and as long as we ourselves are trained properly.

An old 1991 study lists German Sheppards, Pitbulls, Rotweillers and Dobermans as the worst offenders. A more recent study also finds German Sheppards and Dobermans to cause 5X more bites than labs and crosses-- no pit bulls because of breed-specific regulations in the study site. This second study took into account the percentage of these breeds in the total dog population. Both stress that the majority of bites happened with dogs that were known to the children, and both stress prevention strategies, education about dogs, and training for dogs.

The more recent article (from Pediatrics) is free and can be accessed from PubMed. It contains details about the study, and it also compares its results with other studies (again listing the same breeds).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=16510617&ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

I've cut and pasted the abstracts here. Other scientific articles can be found on www.pubmed.com using "dog breed bite incidence" as search words. Not all articles are free, but the main message can be found in the free abstracts. A rather long post for this forum, but I'm sure many of you would appreciate the hard data.

LC


1: Pediatrics. 2006 Mar;117(3):e374-9. Links
Analysis of dog bites in children who are younger than 17 years.Schalamon J, Ainoedhofer H, Singer G, Petnehazy T, Mayr J, Kiss K, Hllwarth ME.
Department of Pediatric Surgery, Medical University of Graz, Graz, Austria. johannes.schalamon@meduni-graz.at

OBJECTIVES: This study focuses on the pattern of incidence, mechanisms, and circumstances of accident and injury in a series of pediatric patients who sustained dog bites. METHODS: In our retrospective survey, the medical charts of all children who were younger than 17 years and sought medical attention after a dog bite between 1994 and 2003 were reviewed. To obtain the total number of each dog breed in the administrative district, we analyzed 5873 files from the community dog registers. For establishment of a risk index, the representation of a dog breed among the total canine population was divided by the frequency of dog bites from this breed. RESULTS: A total of 341 children (mean age: 5.9 years) were identified. The annual incidence of dog bites was 0.5 per 1000 children between 0 and 16 years of age. Incidence was highest in 1-year-old patients and decreased with increasing age. The relative risk for a dog attack by a German shepherd or a Doberman was approximately 5 times higher than that of a Labrador/retriever or cross-breed. The vast majority (82%) of the dogs were familiar to the children. Most (322; 94%) of the children had injuries to 1 body region; in the remaining 19 (6%) children, up to 3 body regions were injured. Of 357 injuries, the face, head, and neck region was the leading site affected (50%). Inpatient treatment was required in 93 (27%) patients. CONCLUSIONS: Dog bites in children are frequent and influenced by the breed-related behavior of dogs, dog owners, children, and parents. Therefore, prevention strategies should focus on public education and training of dogs and their owners. Children who are younger than 10 years represent the high-risk group for dog attacks.

PMID: 16510617 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

1: Pediatrics. 1991 Jul;88(1):55-7.Links
Comment in:
Pediatrics. 1992 Feb;89(2):356-7.
Dog bites in urban children.Avner JR, Baker MD.
Division of General Pediatrics (Emergency Medicine), Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

As a result of a perceived increase in pit bull injuries, all children who presented to The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia during 1989 for evaluation of dog bite injuries were prospectively studied. Epidemiologic information was collected from parents, either at the time of visit or by phone on the following day. A total of 168 children were enrolled; the mean age was 8 years. Males outnumbered females 1.5:1. Most (61%) injuries occurred in or around the home and involved dogs known to the patient (77%). Types of injuries included abrasions (33%), punctures (29%), and lacerations (38%). Thirteen bites had associated complications; nine developed infection. Twelve (7%) children required admission to the hospital. More than 12 different purebreeds or cross-breeds were identified as perpetrators, including German shepherds (n = 35), pit bulls (n = 33), rottweilers (n = 9), and Dobermans (n = 7). Most (54%) animals were contained (ie, leashed, fenced, in-house) at the time of injury. Fewer (46%) were provoked prior to biting. Significantly more pit bull injuries (94% vs 43%, P less than .001) were the consequence of unprovoked attacks and involved freely roaming animals (67% vs 41%, P less than .01). Children aged 5 or younger were more likely to provoke animals prior to injury than were older children (69% vs 36%, P less than .001). It is recommended that families with young children be the target of pet safety education and that measures be sought that would lead to early identification of a potentially dangerous dog and restrict ownership.

PMID: 2057274 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Back in the 70's when our kids were young a neighbor gave us a pit bull mix that looked like a pure pit bull. They had a purebred that had puppies by a german shepard that got into their yard. We didn't know there was any danger and she was a good dog. Now that we are older we have a small pekingese because he is easy for us to handle, carry, bathe. Our daughter lives in Denver and pit bulls are banned. You can drive through the city with one if you are just passing through, but you can't own one, they will take it away. Still there are people that do and just claim it's a different breed. Linn


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I've met any number of fine, gentle pit bulls. But I wouldn't have one, nor do I want my kids around them. According to the CDC, over half of fatal dog attacks were by pit bull type dogs during the most recent two-year period. http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

Dachshunds were bred to hunt badgers. Retrievers were bred to gently bring a hunter's kill to their masters without damage. Pits were bred for aggression and ability to do damage. They have gotten incredibly popular with people who have no interest in rearing a well-mannered pet. Inbreeding has become more common. The same thing happened with shepherds and collies when Rin Tin Tin and Lassie catapulted those breeds' popularity.

jerriellijay, I probably live next to the park in Atlanta where the little boy thought your lapdog was a Rottie. There seems to be some dogfighting in this area. Breaks my heart to see how many children *and* adults are terrified of dogs here. All of these people who will never know how wonderful it is to have a good dog in your life, and vice versa.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I posted this on another thread, but I'll post it here again, as it seems relevant.

Caution: some photos of deranged-through-abuse and rescued pit bulls.

Here is a link that might be useful: What is Man Without the Beasts?


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I'm still all for pits-it's Vicks that I'm against!

Scotland, It was Freedom Parkway, North Highlands near Little Five Points. Boy, I'm glad I'm in the mountains now!


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Organic, thats a great video. I particularly like the statistics - they've accounted for only 1.89 percent of bites in 7 years, and they're 4th from the bottom in a list of 100 of most likely to bite.

My boyfriend grew up in a family of 4 kids, 2 adults, him being the youngest and they always had pitbulls. From the time the eldest child was born til they moved out of the farm, they'd had atleast 15 pitbulls. Several at a time. Not one single human, child or otherwise was EVER bitten. The dogs never fought or hurt eachother. 3 rowdy, playfighting, boys, running free with several pitbulls, wrestling, chasing, jumping. Never one single nip or bite.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

For or against? Against...big time.

another timely story...Pit Bull in Greensburg Chews Off Owners Arm, a local story.

The woman had raised the dog since it was a puppy.

Taken from the story:
Neighbors said Williams raised Toby since he was puppy and nobody ever witnessed any aggression. Hines said that Toby was taking obedience classes on the weekends. Police and neighbors aren't sure why the dog would turn on Williams. Police said they've never received a report about Toby attacking anyone else in the community.

Pit bulls do not need a reason to attack. Unpredictability and the inclination to attack are genetic traits within pit bulls.

Here is a link that might be useful: Dog attack deaths and maimings


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I love it when people say "any dog can bite."

But can any dog kill????


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

So exactly what are you saying stir_fry? That any dog can "bite" but "any" dog isn't capable of killing? I would say that is not entirely true.Just about any dog is capable of killing a small child or baby.Maybe not by going for the throat or something like that but I know of an incident her in my own city a few years ago where a dog (just happened to be a Pitt) went after a dirty diaper(that just happened to still be on a baby sitting on the floor in a car seat),and injured the baby's genitals so badly that he died! Accident,yes,but still a dog was responsible for the death of that baby.True,the baby shouldn't have been left on the floor unattended with the dog in the room but the dog was a family pet,who would have thought? Animals are unpredictable.Dogs and cats,family pets,BITE! I would never presume that any of my dogs might not bite for some reason or another,no matter how sweet and docile they may be,or that I "think" they may be! People who think/say,"My dog would NEVER bite anyone",are living in a dream world! I don't understand how anyone can believe that.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

lilliepad: I guess you misunderstand me. I was referring to comment such as...

I believe the highest incidents of bites in the US are from labs

I believe that the Jack Russell Terriers are more likely to bite someone than a pit bull.

I have been attacked by more Cocker Spaniels and cats than everything else combined

All dogs bite. Plan accordingly.

I guess my point is -- I just dropped my DD off at a friends -- they have a poodle that is probably 9lbs. I am sure it can bite -- can it kill me? Hardly.

It is not so much the biting that it is the issue it is that the pitts tend to attack to kill.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Thank you for clarifying that Stir_fry.
My point was that may be the actual bite may not be fatal but the results of even a bite from a smaller dog "could" be fatal.
I believe it is an instinct in the pitt to fight.Wouldn't have one and certainaly not around kids.I think they are beautiful dogs but they need a certain kind of person to own them and understand their personalities and requirements.I don't think most pitt owners are qualified to be one.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

My sister has been a dog trainer for 35 years. In that 35 years, yes, she has seen various breeds of dogs bite. But, according to her 35 year experience, she said pit bull bites are the worst. She said she has seen them, unprovoked, bite even their owner. She said that their jaws have 2100 lbs of pressure, and that a bite can break your arm in two. She said that if a pit bull latches on, it is nearly impossible to get them off. She said that if a pit bull bites, one better have a gun to shoot them off or a knife to slit their throat - getting their jaws to let go is nearly impossible.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I don't feel pit bulls should be in households especially with kids or other pets. Terrifies me hearing when someone adopts one and they have young kids.

I have heard too many attack people, kids on the street, next door neighbour and the damage they do is unreal.

Yes, other dogs can be vicious but pitbulls latch on and rip your skin off.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

There's nothing wrong with the American Pit Bull Terrier that another hundred years of breeding in the right direction can't fix... it must be remembered that until 1976, this breed had a job, it filled a niche in the world of canines, albeit one that not many understand or agree with.

When the Animal Welfare Act was passed, the APBT suddenly had no purpose. Since that time, the breed in general has gone down the genetic toilet, along with many other bull breeds.

There are way too many self-proclaimed breeders or breeders without the proper knowledge... and there are way too many owners that never bothered to research before buying, and are irresponsible in ownership.

It is unfortunate, but ignorance reigns supreme within the ranks of the general public, with regards to the APBT... and irresponsibility and the lack of common sense reign supreme within the ranks of breeders and owners of these misunderstood, and misplaced, animals.

Nothing will change unless those who breed and those who buy decide to use the common sense God gave them, and the publicly available data and knowledge. The really unfortunate part is that the government has to step in and take away our rights, and our dogs... and you know they're not going out of their way to learn about the breeds they pass laws upon.

It's a sad state of affairs when the news has that many stories about maulings and killings... none of which should have taken place.

I've been an Ameican Bulldog breeder for over 25 years, raised 3 children around a yard average of 20 to 40 dogs, and never had an incident occur that wasn't fully warranted. In other words, the only people who have ever been bit fully deserved it, and were trying to do harm to a family member at the time of the bite. A well-bred, well-trained AB is a re-callable bullet. I trust my life to my dog, but then, I bred her and handled her through training... she is the product of over 25 years of responsible breeding and culling.

I'm still amazed at the fallacies that abound regarding the APBT... and I'm amazed that ANYONE would allow ANY dog to be unsupervised around children or other pets!

While it is true that accidents happen... a lot less would happen if people took their heads out of the sand!


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

The lawless have no need for laws. It's law abiding folks that pay the price for the guilty. Criminals breed large dogs for their viciousness solely for self gratification and drug guarding. A ban would serve absolutely no purpose and would be impossible to enforce.

To respect a breed, no matter what it is and know how to properly socialize takes responsibility and discipline. Unfortunately, there are many, weak, undisciplined humans who would only end up rearing potentially dangerous dogs. Enforce the many laws already on the books regarding attacks-there is no need for a total ban. A bite is not always an attack and a dog that attacks unprovoked should be legally seized, destroyed and the owners held legally and financially responsible.

I kept a pit for several days until I located her owner. She was a sweet dog (though deaf) and played with my female pug (after I tested her temperment). Even so, I would never have trusted her alone with pug or child-the damage potential was just too great. If not for the pugs and my locating her owner, I probably would have kept her.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

My husband took a bite from a small terrier, and he'd be the first one to say that it was his own fault. It's a long story, but the dog was just doing its job, protecting its charge. His inner thigh was black and blue for weeks!

The moral of the story is... even small dogs can cause a bit of damage when they bite. ALL dogs should be contained and supervised by their owners, not just the large breeds.

Enforcing dog laws is not the top priority of LE... not with crime the way it is today. And, it's next to impossible to fully enforce most laws regarding dogs, anyway.

Back to the topic, though... for or against APBT? I'm for... as long as the dog is genetically well-bred, and the owner is responsible and uses common sense.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

For- as long as owners know what thy are doing. Know a guy that has two pits, he often lets them off leash (illeally I might add) and they run around and play, very nice dogs, then I met another family, with young children AND an intact massive pit bull, its testicals were huge and its jaws,yikes! but it was NICE.

However these owners both raised the dogs to be accpetable, I'm sure the same dogs in wrong hands would be very dangerous.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

My 72 year old neighbor was killed by a pit bull last week. She was walking her granddaughter home from school when the dog broke out of the yard and attacked her. Someone called 911 and fortunately a police officer was in the neighborhood. The office had to shoot the dog but by then it was too late. And the poor little granddaughter was terribly traumatized.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

How terrible sephia. The thing is, no one knows if or when they will attack. Even the nice ones.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Call me prejudice but maybe curtain races of people shouldn't be allowed to own pits- black people and hispanics seem to be the types that you see on animal cops/animal cruelty showson animal planet that train them for illegal purposes. Esspecically in areas that have a high race satistic of dog fighters/ect.

Then again some black/hispanic people are probably great pit owners/ its sad but maybe this is a good idea.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

ok for one i would like to inform a couple of idiots on here that obviously are against pitts. so i read a post about a lady being ran down by 3 pitts into an apartment and they almost got her baby's head right before she got in!hahaha...ok thats bullcrap! there's not a pitt alive that's going to run to a baby as if it were prey. unless they were trained to do that in which i seriously doubt. thats a pretty ridiculous story by the way. and also i read a post that made the comment that they wouldnt leave their kid with a pitt but they would a lab or small dog. im hear to explain a little of my knowledge, i have 3 pitts a chihuaha and a huge black lab that are all inside dogs, and i would never leave a child alone with any animal because an animal is not capable of babysitting(you idiots!) but my point is i can leave my 9month old nephew, my 1.5 year old nephew, and 2 yr. old neice in the room with my pitts and nothing will happen. my chihuaha bites and my lab for sure will bite a whole in anything or body, my pitts are cool calm and collected and wont attack anything or body, and that's how all the pitts i have owned are. infact here's something for all you un-educated people... my pitts are scared of silver ware and hott biscuits!!! go figure... soo before all you racist's run ur head about pitts learn the b.s. your trying to talk cause u have no point!!!!!!!!!!!!


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email add

EMAIL: joshzbabie1000@yahoo.com
thanks


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Punish the deed not the breed!

oh and another thing i want to answr some peoples question... "why do you see more about pittbull attacks and them being soo much worse then any other attacks?" ANSWER: the reason you see more about pitbulls is because they are not liked by ignorant people like they ones that post it! if u do your research before you talk your b.s. u will see what the news and paper and radio hide... they're have been far more attacks by rotts, chihuahas, great danes, labs, german shepards, etc...than pitts!!(do the research) and 2nd, theyre attacks arent worse...the worst animal attack in the world was by a german shephard(police dog) to a man who had only stepped out of his car when asked by the police!GO FIGURE!! thank you and if u disagree or want to learn or hear more please contact me via email i would love to have a 101 conversation about this to help you soon understand


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

"so i read a post about a lady being ran down by 3 pitts into an apartment and they almost got her baby's head right before she got in!hahaha...ok thats bullcrap!"

How the hell would you know moron?


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I didn't even bother to read all of the posts here. Frankly, I just read the first 3 or 4. Statistically, the number one face biting breed in america is the cocker spaniel. I think Meghane (a vet) even posted she worries about a personal trauma with a cocker. NO big suprise to me.

Who is on a face level with a smallish dog? A child. A cocker face level??? a child!

Pitbulls were bred to be DOG-aggressive. Not human aggressive -- not guard dogs -- not household watchers. Simply dog aggressive. And that trait MAY OR MAY NOT kick in until the dog has reached adulthood - 2 YRS OLD!

I would no more put a pitbull at 6 months old with my other dogs than I would put a baby rattlesnake with a baby.

However, pitbulls might make very good single-dog families a GREAT PET!

Frankly, a pitbull would watch someone steal every item you own. They are not human aggressive animals.

I also (as some posters already said) NEVER LEAVE ANY DOG alone with small children ---- ANY DOG. Its just stupid.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against? btw

bite statistics are readily available at the HSUS (humane society of the united states) website. It is a FACT that the cocker spaniel is the number one face biting breed in america - not the pitbull.

Ask any shelter worker -- we all fear the incoming toy breed far worse than any of the bigger dogs. They are more nervous frankly. And to anyone being bitten, a bite is a bite is a bite. Nervous or "fear bites" feel just as bad as an aggression bite. I always feared that nervous bite -- because it is FAR more likely than an aggression bite.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

bumblebeez, you are VERY uninformed...dachshunds can be just as dangerous as any other breed. In fact, any dog can be dangerous around children, and none should be left alone with them. We hear more about pitbulls because the media loves a scare story, it sells papers. But in reality, there are more bites and maulings by other breeds everyday than pitbulls.

I have 2 chihuahuas, my mom has a dachshund, my brother has a pitbull. Guess which of our dogs have bitten or snapped at the kids in the family? One of my chi's, and Daisy the Dachshund. The pitbull is a big lovable lug. Our only concerns with him are dog to dog aggression, which is what pits are bred for, we are being very careful to keep him dog socialized so that does not happen.

There has never been a case of a well loved, trained and cared for family pit breed attacking another person. It is always the dogs that have been tied up, not socialized, abused or trained to fight that do the damage, and it is their owners that are responsible for that.

Do some research on the breed, especially the history of the breed...before the criminal element got ahold of them in the recent decades. Animal Farm Foundation is a great pit site, as is Bless the Bullys.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I just lost a long message I typed up so I'm not going to re-type it.
I think all pitbulls should be spayed/neutered and the breed controlled or allowed to vanish.

you can flame me all you want but I've owned one recently(not by choice) so I'm not just spouting BS. and if I had to make a choice between a Jack Russel Terror or a pitbull attacking one of my kids, I'd pick the JRT. They're nasty but my kid might be able to have a fighting chance against a JRT, but not against a pitbull.
The life of one of my children is worth infinitely more to me than all the pitbulls put together and I don't give a rat's rear end about how "cute" or docile anyone thinks they are. Extremely social dog, but the unpredictability factor is way high. She is now placed with a family without kids and everybody is happy.
and spare me the statistical baloney. Statistics can be twisted any way people want.
I feel the same way about some other breeds, particularly Dogo Argentino.
The ability of some breeds to be extremely social towards humans can be deceptive, and that is true in the case of pitbulls.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

This kind of breed prejudice is absolutely ridiculous.

It is stirred up and perpetuated by the media, who is eager to grasp on to SHOCKING stories of DEATH and MUTILATION, no matter what else is going on. What do you think is more interesting to BRAINLESS Sheeple watching the 6 o'clock news, a Dachshund who bit a toddler and now has a BOO BOO (this wouldn't even get reported...) or a pit bull attack?

Fuel is provided from poor breeding habits- the pit bull is the current "breed" of choice for the masses of irresponsible dog owners, and they are bred to death for money. This complete lack of care regarding the disposition of dogs they produce and the horrible environments in which they can be raised- of COURSE you are going to have loose cannons. You also have Golden Retrievers, Labs, German Shepherds, Dachshunds, Cocker Spaniels, and Chihuahuas biting people. Smaller breeds get away with aggressive behavior because few adults feel truly threatened by a Chihuahua...

Almost all dog attacks I have read about involve one or more dogs who are RUNNING LOOSE, unsupervised, sometimes in packs. Again, an owner who does not bother to keep tabs or their dogs is not likely to have a socialized, stable dog, because they won't have done any training. Larger breeds with NO socialization or training are not a good idea, simply because of sheer size, and says nothing for what type of dog they are genetically.

A study found that the most aggressive (most likely to bite) dog was the Dachshund, followed by the Chihuahua and Jack Russel. Nobody reports these bites because the dogs are so small and unlikely to be fatal...

If the only thing you choose to believe about "dangerous dogs" it's what you've seen on the news, then you are a complete sucker! Go put your head back in the sand.

Taking responsibility for training and monitoring your dog is equal to being responsible for driving and maintaining a car. The problem arises when you have the same type of irresponsible people who drink/drive text/drive etc. who kill people with metal cars responsible for large animals with teeth.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

The AKC just recognized the Cane Corso breed. You think pits are overbred, wait til Canes are added into that mix.

Pit bulls are like monster trucks. Made/bred for one purpose. Folks who use them responsibly know the problems. Monster trucks have no place in city traffic. Pits have no place in most households. Reason? Can you imagine the result of a car/monster truck wreck? Pit attacks are much more serious than a chihuahua or daschund attack.

Simply because people do not know how to handle a pit---much like most people do not know how to drive a monster truck.

Fact of life---bad people make good dogs bad. Good people often make good dogs bad as well.

The city in which I live has outlawed pits. They had little choice due to the number of attacks and the outcome of those attacks. I don't like it either, but the ban has caused the number of attacks byu pit bulls to drop in number and in frequency.

Has the number of pits in my city been reduced? I don not think by much. But, what has happened is that pit owners take much better care of their dogs---which is what should have happened in the first place.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

From everything I have read about the "pittbull" breed,they have historicaly been bred for their fighting ability.So,how does one "breed" that inbred trait out of the breed and still have a purebred Pitt?
I know a few Pitbulls and they are basically pretty nice dogs,but I don't trust them and definitely wouldn't have one around children.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Taken from the link below:
Heaton said officers had no known cause for the attack. Irvine said Willams and her husband had raised the 3 to 5-year-old male pit bull since it was a puppy. As she tried to comfort Williams, the woman told Irvine she let him out like she did every morning and this time, he turned on her and attacked.

snip

"Lt. Huser described it as the grossest thing he had ever seen in 32-plus years on the force," Heaton said. "The dog was literally eating her to death."

Now what other breed is capable of eating an adult alive?

The only thing worse than a savage attack like that to a dog's owner, is an attack like that to some innocent bystander.

Count me among those that think that all pits should be spayed or neutered and the breed allowed to just vanish.

Here is a link that might be useful: Woman attacked by pit bull clings to life


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

That unfortunate example is why I wrote pits are not good choices for most dog owners. I owned a pit mix. I did not know that as the pup was a Lab/pit mix and the pit characteristics did not begin to appear until 3 or 4 months.

I have trained guard dogs. I have trained a dog so aggressive and uncontrollable he was judged a danger to society. He is lying at my feet as I type. Unneutered also.

I raised the pit mix from a 6 week old pup. There were special rules for him(I have 5 grandkids.) When the dog was about 14 months(weighing about 60 pounds) my 11 month granddaughter could put him on the floor with a pointed finger and a grunt.

The kids could not play running games around him(created prey drive). They could not lay on the ground outside with him standing.(dominance) They could NOT play tug of war games---with each other or him(dominance and prey drive).

Everyone--- police, neighbors, vets----could not get over how well he was trained and how easily my grandkids could handle him. He eventually weighed 70 pounds and my 7 year old grandson(weighing 55 pounds) could walk the dog with loose dogs/cats around.

I had the dog put down. Why? He was an esdcape artist. And when he was loose, he was a very dangerous animal. I had no control until I actually put my hands on him---after running him to exhaustion. At the second my hand touched him, he was again the model of obedience.

I spent a lot of money repairing/strengthening fences--a couple thousand dollars in three years. I had cable ties and cable runs. Nothing worked.

The liability was too great. He was simply too dangerous.

That is why pits are not a dog for most owners.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Handymac, try neutering your dog like a responsible owner. Maybe that would have helped and you wouldn't have had to put it down. Who knows how many more puppies it spawned when it escaped.

And your other quote is priceless... "I have trained a dog so aggressive and uncontrollable he was judged a danger to society." That's a great contribution to society. Thank you for your hard work. You let kids and grandkids around a dog so aggressive and uncontrollable he was judged a danger to society?!?!!? What is wrong with you?????

YOU sir are the reason pit bulls get banned. 90 percent of pit bull owners think they are great owners and they've trained their dogs to be loving and obedient. Tell that to little Suzy walkin down the street when a pit bull rips her arm off or something equally hideous.

I listen to the police scanner for Cleveland. There are a ton of calls for pit bulls loose, pit bulls attacking, pit bulls escaping, etc. I have never heard a call for another dog. I would estimate, on average, one call on pit bulls every day or two.

And to everyone complaining about pit bulls (or other dogs) being escape artists...there's really a very simple solution. DON'T LET YOUR DOG OFF A LEASH EVER!!!!!!!!! Is that so hard? We have two beagles and a foxhound. I NEVER let them off a leash, even inside a fence. Not because they pose a danger to society, but because they are hounds. And when they find a way out, they will follow their nose right through the street and get hit by some idiot going 35 mph down a side street. They WILL find a way out, given time.

Same with other dogs, especially aggressive dogs like pits. THEY WILL FIND A WAY OUT. So be responsible, fully potty train your dog, take it out on a leash 4 times a day, and your wonderful aggressive threat to society dog won't escape to harm society.

The ignorance absolutely floors me sometimes. I try to avoid inflammatory discussions like this, but jeez. Use common sense.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

First of all, my pit mix did not get loose when I was not able to track him every minute---NO time to sire pups. I euthanized the pit mix to prevent injury or worse to anyone else.

Second, the aggressive dog I retrained is a GSD/chow mix, not a pit. He was owned by a different family, who could not control him. My contribution to society was to rehabilitate that dog into a useful and trustworthy animal. Come visit me. Bring a 6 month old baby. I will be happy to demonstrate how well my GSD/chow mix now behaves. He loves tennis balls. Bring a 3 year old and I will show you how that 3 year old can take the ball from his mouth. Or take his food dish.

You read into what I wrote with your own mis informative ideas, you did NOT read what I wrote.

Pits and pit mixes are not the dog for most families. IT IS NOT the breeds fault!!!!!!! It is human beings who screwed up the breed and caused the problem.

Makes little difference now. Damage is done. I am a NCPP member and patrol frequently. I have a scanner and am privy to police reports. We have many more instances where small dogs bite kids than pits. Are the pit incidents more horrific? Heck YES---because the dogs are amoung the most aggressive and strongest.

Now, that GSD/chow mix---he is daily off leash, in the yard. Along with his buddy----whom he selected from the kill pound we got her from. Another rehabilitated dog. Does he get out? Only if the neighbor girls would purposely open the gate and let him out. I installed locks. He does not get out. Except on leash.

Oh, yeah, he is unneutered. Not a problem. Most folks never realize he is not neutered.

So, don't use your own twisted misinformation and accuse me of anything, especially when you cannot comprehend what I say.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Why wouldn't you neuter your dog?


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

The female is neutered.

The male is a guard dog. I pay extra for his licenses as well. Even animal control in three cities have no records of any problems with any of my dogs for the last 40 years. The police in one city do have records when the second guard dog did his job on four occasions.

The vets I know/use have accepted my reasons---this dog is not the first guard dog I have trained/had and probably will not be the last. The last guard dog was 15 when two strokes debilitated him enough to euthanize him. The one before that was 16 and developed severe arthritis. When medications no longer helped, he was euthanized as well. Max is 8 or 9 and in wonderful health.

I have high cholesterol and arthritus. I suppose if I get bad enough, hopefully someone will euthanize me.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Where the heck do you live that your guard dog has had to "serve his purpose" four times?!? I live in the ghetto and have never had an issue lol


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

At that time I lived in a fairly nice mobile home park. The dog prevented my little patch from the grafitti, breakins, and property destruction that happened to all my neighbors in the 20+ years I lived there.

Many of them had alarm systems. We were literally less than 2 blocks from the police station. I was the only trouble free lot.

I like dogs. Always have at least two(that is the legal limit where I live now.

There have been three house burgleries within a block of my present house in the last 6 months. Day time jobs. I live on a fairly well traveled street that bis a thru street. Easy to get to and easy to get away from.

I believe in preventing a problem. The dogs help do that.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Below is a link where the author puts the onus squarely where it belongs.... with the owner. My experience with pit bulls mirrors hers in that the worst bites I have ever received were from a chow and from a cocker spaniel. Consistently, the worst dogs I see in my obedience classes are cocker spaniels and most of the "lap" dogs who come to the first class in their owners arms. In 20+ years, I've seen a lot ot very poor examples of many, many breeds. In 20+ years, there was ONE pitbull whose temperament was a little shaky. ONE pit out of probably 1000. I cannot say the same about the GSD's, Danes, Dobermans, huskies, chows, cocker spaniels, rottweilers, mastiffs, collies, poodles, beagles, GSP's, bloodhounds, or even the goldens and labs that have been in a class.

Far, far fewer dog bites would occur if owners supervised their dogs ... ANY dogs ... period.

Here is a link that might be useful: regarding responsibility


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Any sensible person will agree the majority of the onus in on the owner.

My point is that pits have been bred to be more aggressive and less domesticated dog for years. The sad truth is that given the fact other breeds have a higher rate of bites, all the other breeds combined do not have the horrific death and injury conditions pit attacks have. That is simply because many pits are bred to kill. Purebred Am Staf's are wonderful dogs. The kill drive is not nearly as great, if it is present at all.

The real problem is the mixed breed pits and the unregistered breeding situation. The popularity of such a dangerous dog has skyrocketed. People thinkl owning such a dog makes the person more dangerous. Tens of thousands of people who really have no business owning any dog, much less a pit/mix, get a pit because the popular concept is you are a bad___ if you own a pit.

Those dogs do not get minimum exercise as a rule, they get no training---save how to bite----and are ignored most of the time thay are not being paraded.

Then there are the dogs bred for fighting. The culls are never bred. Only the most aggressive dogs are bred.

Yes, people/owners are at fault. Absolutely so.

The situatioin many cities is bad enough to require drastic action. When people are killed by pits, the public demands action. Banning the breed is basically the only step a city can take.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

You people who against a breed of dogs are freaking nuts!!! Pit bulls can be one mean ass dog I give you that but trained right it can be one of the best dogs there are. Ok yes you hear about pit bull Killed this or did that did y'all ever stop to think WTF the home life of this dog is???? Let me guess no!!!! The facts is you rase a dog one way to be good it will be good that way but guess what people in the process wile your training the dog (example here not racism) say you dislike black people or Hispanics or whites you might not think it but the dog is going to be able to pick that up now say you not a racist and you rase the dog the way it suppose to be witch is keep it's master out of danger listen to it's master and above all else and this go's for any breed of dog that lives in a house hold protect it's territory. say your house gets broken in to and you catch the person doing it your not just going to sit there and be like I'm sorry sir I believe your in my house. Your going to do something about it just as such as any dog will not just a pit now this you hear about the attacks the pits do it's because the dumb ass owners did not fallow the laws and I am willing to bet if you sit back and look at any of the attacks caused by pits laws were broken in there that would go against the owners not the dogs now as the saying go's punish the DEED NOT THE BREED!!!!!!!!!! It's understandable for the act of loosing the dog over a kid that gets mauled but it's not just a pit that does it they're just the only ones to get thrown out there. So no I say this F that law bsl!!!!! If y'all don't kill off any animal that bites or fights then why is it ok to kill off one breed??? F that b/s law I ain't goin no were with out my dog and he ain't goin no were with. Out me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I didn't know anything about Pitts and for many years, always thought they were mean Dogs because of what I heard. Well a good friend of mine inherited one and he'd been abused, but this dog was the sweetest dog I have ever been around and he was always glad to see you, never once showed a mean bone in his body. That turned my thinking around and I just love them. If I had a fenced in yard I would have probably 2, LOL!!

It's not the Breed, all it takes for ANY BREED is Discipline, Love, Exercise and Consistency!!!!


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I would never have a dog breed with a history of aggression simply because accidents happen. We have always had lab mixes and now have two full labs. We are out in the middle of nowhere where the crime consists of toilet papering and teenage vandalism so why are their so many ads out here for pit-mix puppies on Freecycle? I get it in the inner cities, but out here?

Why does anyone adopt these potential monsters?


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I would like to believe that as a society we have evolved a little more than this. Frankly, there is no intelligent argument for the possession of an unpredictable and deadly housepet. However, the same mentality that condones a few drinks before the drive home, firing your guns on New Years', and other irresponsible acts will always be defended under the guise of personal freedom. It's sickening, when you think of it, to think people hide behind our civil liberties in order to behave in such rediculous fashion. With every horror story we hear of Pit Bull attacks is the all too ignorant defense of the dogs' owner (But he's a sweet dog, he's never done this before). How can any human being with an ounce of empathy for his fellow man risk what amounts to a carefree game of Russian Roulette between his "pet" and neighboring citizens, children, small domesticated animals, and even their own family?
Decades of visious and unprovoked attacks cry out for the removal of this threat from society. How many mutilated faces, mangled limbs, butchered pets, and even human deaths does it take to convince even the slowest dullard? This being said, we know from the past that an array of advocates for this species will rise to their defense. That is, until tragedy strikes them at their home. There are plenty of intelligent, loving and obedient species to choose from. A Pit Bull is not a guard dog. A Pit Bull is not a weapon. A Pit Bull is a modern day experiment in genetics no less horrifying than Frankenstein's monster. In fact, the Pit Bull is more terrifying because unfortunately they are real. They do exist. They continue to attack, mangle, and kill the innocent year after year, after year. Anyone condoning the possession has made a criminal decision. They have decided to place their twisted pleasure over public safety. That is where their freedom infringes on the freedom of the entire community. Enough said.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

well said beeman, this sentence says it all:

"How can any human being with an ounce of empathy for his fellow man risk what amounts to a carefree game of Russian Roulette between his "pet" and neighboring citizens, children, small domesticated animals, and even their own family? "

I know two dog owners who's pets were attacked by pit bulls while being walked. Both dogs were lucky to survive with horrible injuries and they were the lucky ones. many others get killed in the attacks. As if the physical injuries weren't bad enough, the trauma those dogs experienced was heartbreaking to hear about, and the owners were also very traumatized because of the viciousness of the attack and because they felt so helpless as they tried to get their dog free, and they will never be able to forget it. The problem also lies in the fact that with these dogs, it can be almost impossible to stop the attack once it starts until someones pet is killed or a person is seriously injured. There are over 100 breeds of dogs to choose from, if we lose one breed with the ability to do so much harm then there are plenty of other breeds to choose. There is a big difference between a dog bite and pit bull attack.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

"Decades of visious and unprovoked attacks cry out for the removal of this threat from society. How many mutilated faces, mangled limbs, butchered pets, and even human deaths does it take to convince even the slowest dullard?"

By that arguement, we should ban automobiles, or at least large trucks, because those have caused millions of those kinds of sitiuations. And airplanes. And other things.

I am a proponent of Ban the Deed, not the Breed. Have been for a long time.

However, there has never been a population of dogs like the present pit bull population. There have never been so many people intend on breeding a dog capable of such vicious instinct on such a large scale.

Pedigreed pits have no such instinct. Americam Staffordshire terriers are not evil dogs. Cane corsos are bred to be evil dogs, for specific reasons.

I used a lab/chow mix and currently have a GSD/chow mix as a guard dog. They were/are evil in the situations for which they are trained.

I had a lab/pit mix. Not by choice. I got the lab/border collie mix(as I was told by the dam's owner) as an 8 week old pup. He was trained quite well. He was totally predictive when under control. In the house or yard or on leash. My granddaughter could piut him on his back with a grunt and a poiunted finger when she was 15 months old.

I could play tug of war(No one but me, since he was storng enough to hurt even me) and say quietly No in the middle of a tussle and he stopped NOW. Immediately. Totally. Dopped the rope. People could not believe how well he was trained.

But, when he got loose----and I spent over a thousand dollars in trying to contain him----he was a totally different dog. I talked to pit rescue folks and others. They all agreed, usually regretfully, he was dangerous.

He attaked almost anything that moved if he was on his own and I was not chasing him.

So, I had him put down.

If we comdemn the bad pits, we need to condemn the bad breeders/trainers/owners.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

"By that arguement, we should ban automobiles, or at least large trucks, because those have caused millions of those kinds of sitiuations. And airplanes. And other things. "

I disagree with that analogy. many would consider driving a car or catching a plane as a necessary part of modern life, owning a pit bull is not.

If we drive a car or take a plane we willing accept the risks involved but people do not get to choose if someone's pit bull is running loose or not under control by its owner, the pit bull owner gets to make that choice but other people and their pets are the ones who have to accept the risks of their choices.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

-A drunk driver is not an acceptable risk, IMHO.

My point was do not blame the dogs totally since people caused the problem. Ban that breed and another one comes along. It used to be Dobermans, and before that other breeds.

It is simply too expensive to enforce the laws presently on the books. What needs to happen is for people to form a group that starts identifying bad owners and filing complaints. Enough complaints or notices about owners who break the existing laws and the authorities will have to take action.

We have a system called the Blue Card Program. It is a two part card on which the issuer writes the address and infraction on both halves. One half becomes a post card and is mailed to the address. Anonymously. The other half goes to the city department in charge of following up on the complaint.

Fixing a problem takes more than venting indignation on a forum.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

Handymac dobermans do not have the jaw power and the jaw clamping ability that pit bulls have, it's that simple. Neither do german shepherds and if people want a guard dog they are highly intelligent and highly trainable. You said yourself you could not control your pit bull and when it got loose it was a dangerous dog because they are bred for attacking other animals and it's in their nature.

If pit bull owners were required to 100% secure their dogs in their yards, only have them out in public on a leash with a muzzle with someone who can control them, no one would have a problem with the breed.

"Fixing a problem takes more than venting indignation on a forum."
Handymac just because I disagree with you there is no need to try and make it personal, that wont fix the problem either.

In my country most of the states have now introduced the above laws and if they are not adhered to the dog can be confiscated and destroyed because the responsibility is with the owner to do those things and if owners want to keep their pit bulls they are on notice that they have to meet those requirements. This is not a problem that is isolated to the US, this is a real problem in other countries too, and yet people who claim to love their pit bulls will still ignore the laws and cry foul when the dog is taken from them.


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RE: Pit Bulls, for or against?

I said the dog was uncontrolable ONLY when loose. When in the yard/house, he was as safe as tissue paper.

I do agree pits need to have more control tham other dogs.

But, it is a people thing as much as it is a dog thing.

Indiscrimanent breeding almost destroyed GSDs, is now destroying English bulldogs, and has affected many animals. I had a horse that had a genetic defect so bad and so prevalent the AQHA had a warning about the condition---which stemmed from one stud.

All caused by the people doing the breeding.

Yes, some dogs in that breed area---and it contains several separate breeds---are dangerous.

Make breeding and owning punishable severely enough and the breeding will slow down. Just banning the breed is not sufficient.


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