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njtea

Continuing discussion on estrangements

njtea
16 years ago

Anniebal, I'm starting this new thread (why can't iVillage get it's act together and start a forum on estrangements?) by copying and pasting your last post, I hope you don't mind:

"Thanks for sending the link imaginny. You know I read his book and I have to say that I thought he had unrealistic advice for parent's. One of the things he states is that one should never criticize your kids, never offer advice either. Now this sounds great and even correct, however it just isn't realistic. I didn't go around criticizing my kids, I tried to be a very positive parent. But I know there were moments when I may have said they they could have done something differently, and I don't know how one gets around that. That may be a mild form of criticism, but it is still criticism. I'm not sure how what type of criticism he meant, and I don't believe he elbaborated. As far as not giving advice, WOW that's a biggie! Isn't it natural to say "why don't you try it this way, it works for me." That is offering advice, but it's not telling them what to do, they still have the choice obviously. Another thing this guy plays down is that kids don't need to respect today's parents as did older generations. I'm sorry, I don't agree with that at all. If there is anything that is lacking today it is this feeling that our kids have of us being their peers. I like to be addressed as Mrs., and being told thank you and your welcome. Today's generation is all about themselves, and if we don't live up to their expectations then we don't see them. What happened to kids reaching an age where they realize that as parents we are not perfect, but that they love us anyway? This astounds me since I grew up with a mother who became mentally ill when I was age 8, and my husbands parents were both alcoholics until we were nearly on our 2nd child. Neither one of us ever stopped loving our parents, or seeing them. We may have been more select about what time of day we visited my husbands parents due to their drinking, but we still saw them regularly. Was I supposed to grow up and be angry that my mother wasn't there for me? Doesn't that sound like what today's kids would feel justified saying?

annibal"

You and I think alike on this entire subject. I believe that Coleman only encourages children toward estrangement and self-absorption.

Comments (150)

  • anniebal
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I know that my now estranged son told his little brother a few weeks before his wedding that he wanted to break up with his fiancee and that the only reason he was still marrying her is because he was engaged! This says a lot about my son. He must have seen some of her personality traits but felt he was in too deep to back out. It could've been because of embarassment, or money (vested into the wedding plans since they paid for most of it,) or sheer determination to prove that what he had done was not a mistake. We often think my son is digging his heels in trying to prove something since he had so many red flags while he was dating and engaged, in addition to many instances of conflict.

    My son clearly saw his wife's behavior on our big trip to Hawaii last summer which was the beginning of the end. Even though my son saw just how rude his wife was to us, how awful her behavior for the entire 10 days in Hawaii, it never occurred to him to defend his parent's and the money they spent bringing them along with us. My husband confronted my son a few nights before we left Hawaii asking him what was going on with his wife, and if there was something wrong. My son admitted noticing her moods, but didn't think it was important enough to stand up for us. All he and his wife had to do was apologize or explain why she had been in such a mood that she couldn't have a good time around us (though she was fine and happy with just our son and their friends who happened to be in Hawaii when we were.) I guess we were just not important enough for my son to take a stand for. What kills me is if my son would put his foot done and tell her that he isn't putting up with her behavior towards his parents, she would oblige. She is afraid of losing him. She is a very insecure person, with a very low self esteem (thus the narcissm to prove otherwise.) He has no idea how he could get her to act more pleasantly, he is afraid of her.

    anniebal

  • scarlett2008
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am new to this board and discussion. It has been 6 years since I have seen or talked to my son. I got separated from his father in 1996 and the divorce was final in 1999. My son was very unhappy with us getting divorced. He was almost 19 at the time. I reconnected with my son by phone for a brief time (2000-2001). I saw him only once during this time and I thought everything was going to be alright with us. In 2001 I got engaged and called him to tell him the news. This was the last time I talked to him. I called him numerous times and left him messages after that to give him the date of the wedding and to ask for his current address so that I could send him an invitation but he never called me back (I only got his voice mail). I called him a month after remarrying and he hung up on me. That really hurt me so I told myself I wouldn't call him anymore. About a week ago I tried calling him again as he has a birthday next month (his 30t). I got his voice mail again and so I left him a non-pressuring message but he never called me back. My ex and I had a bad marriage and he was very bitter when I left him. I am sure he has filled my son's head with mean and nasty things about me. My son has lived with his father on and off since our divorce and may still be living with him. I have sent birthday cards to my ex's house but I never know if he gets them. I am at a loss at what to do.

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  • anniebal
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Scarlett2008, I wish I had answers for you. Six years of not seeing or talking to your son must be unbearable. If your husband was a jerk (which is probably why you divorced him - duh!) then I'm sure he filled your sons head that this was all your fault. How else can you explain that your son would take this position? Were you and your son very close before your divorce? I realize he was only 19, but surely that is old enough to realize that it takes 2 to tango? However, if your husband is manipulative, then he may be good enough at it to confuse your son as to what really happened, and who was at fault. Do you think he was bitter about you marrying again and that was his reason for hanging up? Do you have any other children, and if so, how are they taking it? Since you didn't mention any, I get the impression that your son may be your only child. It's always tragic to have this happen, but even more so when there is no other child to at least give you some reason to believe that it wasn't you, or me that caused the estrangement.

    We have reached out to our son several times, the most recent being after Christmas. He won't answer his phone, so we leave messages. He doesn't call us back, but instead will email me and tell me that he isn't emotionally ready. In others words his wife, the self centered, manipulative, egotistical, evil person she is won't allow him to have us reconcile. This was her fault. If she had just faked the she liked us, we were willing to bend over backwards for her. But when she almost ruined are entire trip to Hawaii that we paid for completely, it was time we said something. Well heaven forbid that we speak up and tell our son that we recognized her moody, unreceptive behavior on our expensive trip. Even though my son stated he noticed her quiet moods, he obviously didn't get anywhere in talking to her (and that's if he tried, which is a long shot.)

    Tonight my sister had a party for her husband's 60th birthday. She invited my son, which I was outraged about. I've decided that my family can either support me, or I won't be at their get togethers. NO ONE is holding him or his wife accoutable for just how awful he (and they) are treating us. This is my sister and brother, surely they would stand up for a sister that they loved? I know that if it was a niece or nephew of mine, I would be contacting them and at least talking to them about the situation and letting them know that until things are right between them and their parents, that the parents come first and therefore they will not be invited to any gatherings where the parents are invited too. This is called support, and could possibly get him off his high horse of self righteousness. For him to even have the nerve to continue seeing my brother, and going to my sisters shows you just how right they believe they are. And who has indicated otherwise besides us? While she is there, she puts on this fake act of being social and caring which is something she never bothered doing before. Heck, she didn't even bother coming to my sisters daughters baby shower and she was home the day it took place! She was never pleasant to my sister when she met her, yet my sister seems to have a memory lapse in these areas. Tonight they were all out in the kitchen just yucking it up with her as if she has wronged no one. I told my brother and sister that this is the last time I will be at an event where my son and his wife are invited. It is far too hurtful to watch the family carry on with them as if nothing is wrong, while my son and his wife essentially ignored us the entire evening. We got up and greeted them when they came in, but then they didn't even sit near us. They made sure to be somewhere else talking to other people. When we had cake, I made a point to sit at the table near them so that hopefully we might say two words to each other. But no, nothing was further from their minds. Finally when someone started asking my son about something, I took the opportunity to jump in and ask what he was doing. He told me the plans, to which I inquired for more details, and then told him how much fun it will be. Instead of asking me a question he had about me and my husband, he text messaged my younger son and asked him if me and my husband were taking a trip. My youngest son to his credit, text messaged him back and told him to ask me himself if he wanted to know. He did end up asking me his question, and I answered, and then that was it.

    Sadly, this is the first time I greeted him with a very matter of fact hug and kiss. When he left I kissed him and didn't even realize until later that I didn't say I loved him. I greeted and said good bye to his wife with a hug also, but this time there was no emotion in it. I simply said hello and good bye followed by her name. It was a lackluster hug on her part, and I'm tired of putting effort into something that can't feel anything back.

    My sister has agreed she won't invite him again with us there. I've already made this clear to my brother. I am done trying. No more phone calls, text messages, emails, etc. I no longer feel I need to see him, the hurt is just too great. I'm doing better now, and I need to stay on that course. It hurts more seeing him now then not seeing him. I don't even want to know or hear about what is going on in his life since I really don't care.

    I wonder if a parent's unconditional love can be pushed to the limit and become conditional? I love him as a son that I used to have. The son I have now is dead to me. Even if he wants back in my life, I don't know if I will want him. I know I will never want his wife, ever. I despise her for what she has done to our family, and yes, it is her. My son should be able to have a say in what she is imposing on his life, yet he is to brainwashed in my opinion to do so. Maybe one day he'll wise up, but I'm no longer anticipating the date that it will happen.

    The hurt is beyond compare, and some times I wish I could hurt him in the same way so that he could understand how I feel. But I know I'll never do that, and that I will just now completely stop trying, as he deserves nothing else.

    People always say to still send cards, and gifts, and I just don't get it. That isn't going to change a thing, and he's made that obvious. Let him think we don't love him anymore, let him feel how empty that is. His narcisstic wife is to busy pretending to be superior to care what his feelings are and one day he will be lonely since she can never truly love anyone more then herself. Maybe then he will see, but maybe then, it will be too late to have his mom and dad back in his life.

    anniebal

  • scarlett2008
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Anniebal,

    Thanks for your response. Yes, my son in my only child. My son didn't want me to divorce his father so he probably didn't like the idea of me getting remarried. When I told him I had gotten engaged he didn't say "Congratulations" but he didn't say anything mean to me. My ex-husband was a total jerk. It's a wonder that I stayed with him for 20 years before leaving him. I'm sure that he has filled my son's head with lies and told him that I was the reason we split up even though I know I wasn't a perfect wife. My ex verbally and sometimes physically abused our son from the time he was 6 years old. I was afraid of my husband too even though he never hit me but he did verbally abuse me so that was part of the reason I left him. I stayed as long as I did because I felt that our son needed to have both parents raise him. Now I'm not so sure of that. His father has been a terrible role model for him. He taught him that yelling and violence are OK. My son and I had been very close until he started to do things that I didn't approve of (stealing money from us and buying marijuana). Of course my husband sided with him and not me. We never were on the same side. I was usually the one taking our son's side and trying to protect our son from his father's bad temper. When he was 18 I had to call the police because my ex starting hitting him and had him in a headlock and wouldn't let go. I was very afraid that he would kill him. The police took him to the station but they couldn't keep him. I like a fool said I wasn't going to press charges because I was afraid he would come back the hit him even worse and me too. Ratting my son out didn't help our relationship but I thought that he still loved me. I just think that with all the time that has passed and that he is older now that he would understand that I tried to make our marriage work but that I just couldn't take it anymore. I guess that either he doesn't understand and is still angry at me or that he doesn't know what to say to me now. I've tried to make it easier for him by sending cards and telling him I love him and not calling all the time pressuring him to contact me but it doesn't seem to be helping. His birthday is on Thursday (2/28) but I am not going to call him. The ball is in his court again. I can't continue to take the hurt. It's easier on me when I don't think about him constantly or contact him. Maybe my son does hate me. He did once try to choke me for no reason. I think he had a lot of hatred bottled up for his father and knew he couldn't take it out on him so he took it out on me.

    I don't know how you do it, seeing your son and daughter-in-law and getting the cold shoulder. I couldn't do that. I hope things improve for you.

  • sniffles07
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    RE: continuing to send cards (birthday, Chrismas, etc)
    I sent cards for 3 years, and didn't hear a thing, didn't solve anything, nothing. Just my experience.

  • sniffles07
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I had a chance to visit with a good friend of my daughter's last week. We have never talked about the problems between dd & the family. The subject came up and my dd's good friend told me that she felt dd's hubby was very selfish & that his whole family was strange. She also told me that she asked my dd recently how things were going with us, and dd told her great! Interesting because we don't feel that way at all. Yes, we are seeing her and the grandkids, but it's not great. Although it's great compared to what it was, which was nothing. I wonder if dd really thinks that? Or it's a cover? If it is a cover, why to that specific friend? I know she's vented to her in the past several times. We went on talking about some of the specifics. I came away from the talk feeling good. Maybe that's the wrong way to feel but it let me know that EVEN my dd's friends think things aren't right with her marriage.

  • njtea
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sniffles, I know exactly how you feel because it's the same way I felt when a friend told me that he felt my dtr's. household was the most unhappy he'd ever been exposed to. He worked there as a contractor for a few months. He said the tension in the air was very thick and as a matter of fact, told me things in direct opposition to what my daughter was telling me, i.e., that her husband came home for dinner every night with the kids before he went "back to work". My friend told me the kids almost always ate dinner without their father being present, even before my friend had left for the day.

  • sniffles07
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Njtea, I know it probably sounds like we're petty or spiteful. That's not it at all. It validates what we know to be true. That way we don't think we're crazy. LOL
    It's sad though. Sad that our kids would live that way and try to make us think everything is great.

  • anniebal
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Scarlett, I don't know what could be going on in your son's mind, especially after his dad mistreated him. Even if he thought you were to blame for not leaving your husband, you'd think that he would come out with whatever it is that he's upset over. It's amazing to me that he can have a relationship with his father now after the way his father treated him. Although, it could be like the battered and abused wife syndrome, where they seem to want that person all the more. I think that happens from their self esteem being so shot to heck that they don't feel worthy, and feel that no one else would want them. How sad it is that we must be without our children that we loved more then anything else in the world.

    Sniffles, I'm glad to hear you confirm what I stated that cards, gifts, etc. mean nothing. All it does is end up hurting us since we hope and pray for a positive response that never comes. Your daughter telling her friend things are great seems like a put on to me. Perhaps she doesn't want to discuss it with her friend if she feels her friend knows that things aren't good in her personal life with her husband and kids? If you had warned her about her husband at all, perhaps she doesn't want you to know things are not great at home. I some times feel that my son is trying to prove he was right by staying with his witchy wife. Now that they (my son and his wife) won't be invited to family gatherings where we will be in attendance, I find myself worrying over his mental health. I know he relies on the other members of family to make up for his loss of his parents. Maybe I'm fooling myself, maybe he isn't hurting as much as I think he is by not seeing us. I just know that she has hurt his self esteem, and self confidance,to the point where he doesn't believe he can do better. I believe he idolizes her because she projects a superior attitude to him, and belittles him when she gets the chance.

    At the get together at my sisters the other day it was as if the two are conjoined at the hips. She doesn't let him go anywhere without her. This is par for the course with everywhere they go or visit. I'm sure beyond a doubt she is afraid to leave him alone, or let him socilize with just family for fear he will want to come back in our lives. Even his brother can't do anything with him alone. The only thing that ever happens is that they have my youngest son over for dinner, but my youngest son is never alone with his brother. The only time it's happened in the last year is Superbowl sunday when my youngest son asked his brother to talk alone. Since my youngest son brought a friend with (very wisely,)his brother's wife needed to keep him company in the other room while the two of them talked. She did manage to go by the room a few times though to make her prescence known. I've often thought that if my husband and I could catch him at the train going to work, or coming home before his wife is around, that maybe we could talk to him rationally. I wish I could just quit thinking about it altogether.

    Scarlett, your so right in your feelings that it's better when we don't think about them too much or try to contact them. It sure creeps up on me though, when I don't even realize it. I still have these fantasies that he'll come to his senses, but I know he won't.

    anniebal

  • sniffles07
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Anniebal, You said you know your son relies on other family members to make up for the loss of his parents. Maybe if he doesn't have those family members, he'll start thinking. Just a thought.
    My daughter avoided all family when we were estranged for 3 years. I think she KNEW it was wrong, and felt guilty. After she made up with us, my cousin ran into her in town. My cousin told her she was so happy that things were resolved and she said my dd started crying.

  • anniebal
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sniffles, this is why I finally told our family members to quit enabling my son by acting as if nothing has happened, that he has done no wrong. My son and his wife are so self righteous and bold that they go and see all our family members for visits, attend family get togethers, and no one acts as if he/she has done anything wrong! This last get together at my sisters was the limit. It was hurtful watching him ignore us while they carried on yucking it up with my sister, brother, cousin, etc.!! What type of family does this to their brother or sister? If they were my niece or nephew I would be getting together with them to let them know that I disagree with his/her behavior and that until things are back to at least a cordial level between he and the parents, that he would not be invited to our house for any reason. I would let him/her know that I loved them but that my first loyalty lies with his/her dad and mom. If they didn't understand that then it's too bad. We have gotten NO support from any of my son's aunts or uncles. For the love of god, the person who has spoken out the most is my sons near 80 year old grandmother (my husband's mom.) She has encouraged him to make up, to apologize for the awful thing he said to me, etc. My son just patted her on her leg and told her that everything would be alright, while all along he had no intention of changing anything. Recently my son sent out an email to everyone in the family and then some telling them that he may be on CBS Sunday morning since they are profiling his company and he had an interview with them. We of course were not on that email list, and the only reason I know about it is that he emailed his younger brother, who came to talk to me about it. My youngest son is gettnig fed up with his brother's behavior, and when he got the email he wrote him an email back. After congratulating him on possibly being on TV, my younger son told my son that he noticed that mom and dad weren't included in on the email announcement. Then he said that he couldn't believe how large the amount of people were that he included in on the email, only to not see mom and dads too. My younger son asked him he didn't think that mom and dad would enjoy hearing that their other son was going to be on tv, if he didn't think that would make us happy? In the end of the email he told my son that it was obviously a concious choice to leave us off the list, and that he knows the right thing to have done would to have been to include us in on his announcement. I was proud of my little boy, and I could hear and see the anger in him over how his brother is treating us.

    See your daughter at least knew it was wrong, or felt too guilty to see other relatives with what was going on. My son and his biotch of a wife are bold, selfish, self centered, self righteous, immature, naive, etc. It blew my mind when my son and his wife went to see my brother at his home about a month after my bro had had some surgery. They took him out to lunch, and all the while my brother whom I am very close to (or thought I was,) never said one word to his nephew about this situation. I had known my son was going to see him at some point and asked if my brother could possibly talk to him about how my son is handling this. I told him it doesn't have to be confrontational, just a discussion about how my son needs to open up the lines of communication or nothing will be solved. Yet my brother did nothing, and I was incredibly let down. My sister who is the biggest wuss of a lifetime, has never said anything stern to my son about my treatment from him. NO ONE in either family has had the balls to say boo to him over this situation. I'm to the point where even though they are now not going to include him (so they say,) at get togethers where we are at(only because we requested it mind you,) that I have half a mind not to show up either. If this is the type of support we can expect from our family during a crisis, why bother with family? After seeing my sister in law the other day for coffee, I asked her if she noticed that we were the only ones on in my sons email that weren't included. She said yes, she did notice that. I told my husband, would it be too much to have expected that one of our sisters or brother would have written my son and stated they noticed we weren't included on the email notice? Would it have been out of line for them to do this? Wasn't that a great opening for them to do so? Couldn't this have opened up the lines of communication for them, and perhaps given them a chance to voice their opposition to the way my son is handling his mom and dad?]

    It's enough to attempt to deal with the hurt this has caused us over our son and his wife, but to then not receive any support from the people who supposedly love,respect and support us is just too much!! I know what my husband and I would do, and I can't believe that they are so shallow, so afraid of hurting their own relationship with my son that they won't attempt to help us get our relationship with him back (the most important relationship of all of them!)

    I refuse to watch the tv segment tomorrow since my son didn't have the decency to tell me himself. My son never wrote his younger brother back with any response, but obviously it meant nothing since that was 3 days ago and we never heard a peep from him.

    I know this is his wife playing these hurtful games, since guys just don't think of these dirty little tricks. I knew too many girls growing up that acted like my DIL and I never befriended any of them. The one time I was a friend with someone who played dirty games, I ended it when I realized who she really was and just what she was doing. My better friends growing up have always been boys since they don't gossip, play games, aren't catty, and have interesting things to talk about. I'm not saying all girls are this way (thank god they are not,) but there are far too many of them. They put themselves up on this pedastal that they think they can rule the man's life, and if he doesn't comply then watch out.

    We had a best friend of ours who got married, then he and his wife and child actually lived with us for about 3 months until their new home was finished being built. Mind you, we have an average size home and had two boys of our own at the time, but we still made room for them. After they got into their new home, we were invited out perhaps two times to see the house and that was it. His wife cut him off from us completely. She is rather an elitist, and I don't think we fit "her" idea of the right people. Our friend was the nicest guy that we could never have believed this was possible. Though he did attempt to stay in contact now and then, and even stopped by once, eventually we never heard from him again. How lonely he must be now, and I feel that this is how my son will end up. My son is allowing her to feed him this poison about us, allowing her to call the shots on when and if he makes contact with us, so he is responsible. Just like our friend had a choice, so does our son. To think my son could treat us this cold heartedly is hurt beyond compare. I've made up my mind that when/if he does call, that I'm not answering the phone. If he writes me an email, there will be no reply. He is going to get a taste of his own medicine since I have had enough. Let him wallow in his selfish wife's interpretation of love. I will not be kicked around again by him, and I will never feel the same way about him again. I know my crying is not over, and probably will never be completely, but I don't want a relationship with him anymore. It is just too hurtful now to even look at him. I'd prefer to remember him as he was before he met the the saboteur.

    anniebal

  • rookins81
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Anniebal,

    I read these forums since we were once (no longer) estranged from my husband's family. Luckily we were able to all sit down and talk and now the relationship is better than it ever was...it is so nice. And that is after 7 years of not speaking.

    Anyway I just have to comment because I have read your posts on here and replies. Your bitterness just oozes from your posts....worse than I have ever seen/heard from anyone to be honest. I am not saying your son is innocent..or DIL for that matter. But I will say your attitude will never make things better. Ever. If you are this negative and angry calling them every name in the book..that negative energy will just radiate off you and affect everyone around you. You can't change your son or DIL...but you can change YOU.

    We had a lot of disagreements with my in-laws but we realized that if we changed the way we thought/felt that maybe that was the first step towards something positive. No matter if they changed or not. And I must say it makes a big difference. When we sat down to talk there was no anger or name calling, yelling, or blaming.

    I am willing to bet that your son and DIL do not want to come anywhere near you because they probably figure you will just scream and call them/her nasty names. That will never lead to reconciliation. Also your family members not going to bat for you....that is not their problem! You cannot expect them to cut-off, lecture your son and side only with you. How selfish. If they choose to remain neutral then just be happy with that. If you talk about your son and DIL in front of all them like you do on here...wow no wonder they do not want to be involved.

    I know you are probably going to reply to this and slam me up and down..and well that would not surprise me after reading your hateful spewing on here. You already insulted me earlier on when I was first posting on there..without you even knowing me and misreading my posts. Your bitterness is unbelieveable. You even stated that ALL of "MY" generation is just selfish and thinks they are owed something. What a generalization if I ever heard one. I have met a lot of selfish acting older adults myself yet I don't generalize them.

    Of all the estrangement/support forums and posts I have read over the years..yours disturbs me most. I hope other parents on here who are estranged from their kids don't follow your example of hate. And now in this last post you even talk about giving your son a taste of his own medicine. Wow..do you hear yourself? You will never get your son back in your life if this is how you think/act. I hope you will see it someday..that the anger will never make things better.

    Rookins

  • jankin
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh Rookins
    What pain there is in the world
    We can all give and receive the balm of healing words - such hurt is here.

  • anniebal
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You have a LOT of nerve Rookins, and I really have to wonder just how many of my posts you have really read?!! I have never called my DIL or son names to their faces! When I get together with them at my sisters, or other relatives I am as pleasant as can be, there is no indication from me that there is anything wrong. I greet them with a hug, and hello and do the same when they leave.
    I am the only one who has tried to open up conversation when we are at get togethers. Once I ask my questions to them and they answer, they never attempt to reply or strike up a conversation with me or my husband! All the while they are yucking it up with every other family member! Who are you to say my sister and brother shouldn't take my side? How immature and thoughtless of you to make this judgement and criticize me for things you have no idea about. IF you read my posts, you would know I have never said anything negative to my son or DIL to their face other than the night my son and husband and I had a blow up and I out of complete irrational angry behavior called my DIL a bad word. However, my son replied with an even worse bad name to his mother, for which he has never genuinely apologized for. Within days of me saying that to my DIL, I wrote her an apologized and gave no excuses for my behavior. I never heard one word back from either her or my son! I would have called her, but they won't take my calls. It was an awful night when that took place, and no one was innocent including my DIL. Yet I knew there wasn't an excuse, and even with my dislike for her, opened up to apologize for my inexcusable behavior. DO YOU UNDERSTAND, they have cut us out of their life! We have reached out continually, only to be struck down with either no reply from them, or a stupid one sentence email saying 'they' aren't emotionally ready! As my younger son said to his big brother, what this "they" about! This is your mom and dad, why is she interfering with you at least staying in contact with dad and mom? He asked him if he would put his wife through this, and expect her never to see her parents?!! Of course my oldest son nefver gave an answer!

    You know what Rookins, you disturb me. You know how I picture? Just like many other in your age group...entitled! Parents should bow down to you. It is a generalization to say your generation, so I will re-state that as many in your generation. It is so wide spread, that there books written on this for your information. Look into the ME GENERATION.

    Yes, I'm bitter, who wouldn't be after losing their son that they were incredibly close to up until the day he got engaged. It has been a downward spiral with this girl, and if it upsets you because your that age, all I can say is someday you'll understand. Someday when your child grows up and you can never imagine in a million years that you won't continue to be close in your relationship, and they dump you and don't care about your feelings. They become brainwashed by an emotionally abusive person who uses subtle ways to chip away at your childs self esteem, self confidence, and finally convinces them that their parents did them wrong. This is a princess we are talking about. I cannot even believe your immature, naive opinion. You disturb me! It disturbs me that anyone could jump to the accustations that you have, when clearly you haven't been reading all my posts!

    You know what,you don't belong on here. You have no understanding of the situation, and you have formed opinions from out of nowhere. NEVER have I called them anything, or been anything but pleasant to them in front of my sister, brother, cousins, etc.

    Please do me a favor? Don't reply to my posts. Personally I don't need the stress and aggravation of your uninformed, uneducated opinions. Seems to me that your pulling something of your hat, that perhaps you have done. Perhaps this is how you look at your in laws? How do you look at your own parents? Would you understand your husband expecting you not to see your parents anymore? Do you know how to empathize?

    I;d love to know how old you are? I sensed the very first time I read your posts here, and your opinion to them. I won't apologize again for anything Ihave said to you now. Please find a young person site because you are both to young and immature to relate to these feelings.

    How dare you!!

    anniebal

  • anniebal
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jankin, could you please elborate on what you meant with your comments to Rookins?

    I'd like to know others opinions here who are on the same page as I am. I know others have releated to my story, and sympathized with the hurt. So please speak out here if you disagree with Rookins assessment!

    anniebal

  • sniffles07
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't agree with Jankins assessment. This is a place we can come with anonymity to vent our frustrations. We can say things here that we can't or won't say to our estranged family members. It's a place to vent/listen/help & grieve. Anger is caused by frustration,fear, & hurt (thank you Dr Phil). I understand about the anger...I get angry and vent on this thread and to hubby & trusted friends, and say things I would NEVER say to my dd. Why? It's safe. Because I know as well as many of you, that we can't do that to our estranged children or matters would be worse. Anger has to be released however, or we just might blow up and make things worse.
    Annibal, I know what you are saying that you treat your son & dil fine when you are around them. I've done the same thing. Treated them fine..because we don't want to widen the gap. That doesn't mean I won't vent in anger to someone close to me, because I'm frustrated by it at times. You have to get it out. We should be able to vent on this thread without fear of judgment. We don't all agree with every single persons thoughts or actions, we all have different stories, but we should all be supporting one another. I support you 100%!

  • amyfiddler
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Rookins-
    Congratulations on mending your relationship. That takes maturity and a lot of self reflection.
    It is a wise, happy, at peace person who looks in the mirror and makes changes with themselves, in their own hearts when they are dissatisfied with their lives and relationships.

    You have some marvelous things to share - thank you
    Amy

  • anniebal
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have to commeent on the congratulation to Rookins. IT TOOK SEVEN YEARS! I have to wonder if Rookins was ever estranged from her mom and dad, or if everything on that side was just peachy? It does seem that it is usually the girl who takes their husband away from their family as if it is some type of given when a guy gets married. What kind of changes can one make Amy when your dealing with an injustice collector? I can give you the answer...there are none! No matter what changes one makes, it is never good enough. I have a feeling that if Rookins was able to mend their ways with her husbands parents then it was probably the parents who changed, not them! Just the little I've heard from Rookins is enough for me to come to the conclusion that she is a very judgmental person, and probably hard to get along with. While she is busy patting herself on the back for changing her mind, the real credit probably goes to the more mature in the relationship, and that is the parents.

    Amy, you really think Rookins had some marvelous things to share? Just what are those once you take away her slamming me for coming to this site to be able to vent!?? There was the one sentnece about looking into her heart and realizing with a little change they could all get along, and that took 7 years to decide?!!

    Mark my word, there is far more to that story then is being revealed here on this forum.

    I don't know why I even considered Rookins comments the first time she posted them to me, since she is obviously very young and immature for her to draw the conclusions she did, and make hurtful accusations that were certainly not proven by any posts I have made. But then she probably didn't really read them all to begin with.

    Read the book by Mike Sichel on Family Rifts and Estrangements and you will see how impossible it is to deal with injustice collectors. There is no pleasing them, no matter what. It is a constant cycle of give, while all they do is take.

    I have a feeling a few people on this board our in the same age group simply by their reactions and comments.

    anniebal

  • jankin
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Anniebel

    I was disturbed when I read Rookins' post - the words were chosen to cause pain and hurt and so I guess they are from someone who carries much bitterness and hurt feelings within themselves and they are actually directed at someone else.- I felt as though I really wanted to make her a cup of healing 'tea' or caress her with healing oil.
    Sorry if my response was read as ambiguous - you will see from the other thread on estrangements just how grateful I am to you all for being there and offering me a place to lay down my grief and misery - among those who have suffered in the same way.
    It is difficult to judge another personality's words but I would say from reading Rookins' that she is in great pain - and is carrying round 'hate' ( a word she often uses) for someone much closer to her than you!
    I would treat her post as a letting of steam at this 'person' and distance myself.
    Love
    Jan

  • rookins81
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am not surprised by the comments. People called out on a behavior will react in such a way. So to clear your false comments made..

    No I did not take my husband away from his parents as you assume...he cut them off and it was entirely his decision. Things were finally mended by him taking the first step and knocking on their door...and truly forgiving whatever happened in the past. So don't assume you know our situation. Now you know. Also, he made that step because I encouraged him time and again to do it. He knows that I hoped we would reconcile with them..but he had to be ready himself.

    My post is hateful and mean? WOW. Actually it was only honest. I didn't call Anniebal names..that would be in fact hateful. My point was that I noticed all HER posts are full of hate and namecalling...this will never help things was my point. I called it as I see it.

    Also Anniebal..you mention MY parents now? You are really trying to peg me as horrible aren't you? Actually I have never been estranged from my parents...and thing are peachy with them :o) We have a good relationship and I am grateful for that.

    See I think you are trying really hard to peg me as a horrible person, DIL, wife....you want to think I am just like your DIL because I have a certain opinion.

    And Jan who are you? Anniebal's other username? Seems odd your post. Saying I am in a lot of pain and am bitter. That couldn't be further from the truth. But I do see this from Anniebal's posts...one after the other calling her DIL the b word..along with other names..and her son too. Looking at it from the DIL/son side I know this will never bring her son back, that is what I was trying to convey here. Luckily my in-laws have been great and the relationship is better than before the estrangement..there is a new respect. No name calling, blaming, screaming, or nastiness had to take place for it to happen.

    Oh well..opinion offered but not considered...and now I am labeled with false accusations. And I am the angry one? Hmmmm....

    Cheerio!

  • jankin
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I live many thousands of miles away from most of you on this thread and will probably never meet any of you - our one common concern is the hurt of estrangement = and related matters of pain that, from your use of language Rookins, appears can never really be resolved.
    Honi soi and all that.

    Dont be so angry and defensive Rookins - all I know of you is what and how you write and it is to that only I respond.

    Jan

  • njtea
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree with Sniffles that many of us come here to vent their anger with their estranged one. Sniffles I also agree with you (and Dr. Phil) that anger comes from fear or, as Yoda said: "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." (I have a bit of trouble tying it to frustration and hurt, but.....)

    However, I have to agree that the amount of anger in Anniebal's post has been very disturbing. I would go even further and say that I, personally, don't think it is possible for her to keep that amount of anger out of her interactions with her son and DIL.

    Rookins, if all of our children could look within themselves to find the answer to estrangements, how wonderful that would be. That, of course, does not absolve those of us who are the parents from looking inside of ourselves also.

    I applaud you and your husband.

  • rookins81
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jan,
    I am not defensive but if you percevied that I was then there is nothing I can say to convince you otherwise. I was being honest with Anniebal..that her anger and hate is so obvious. I didn't call her names or the like..I was just honest. Somehow you think that equates to being bitter and being in pain? Strange. I actually spent a lovely weekend that included my once estranged in-laws and bitterness/pain was no where to be found on either side. Quite the opposite. They are another set of parents to me and I loved watching them interact with their grandson and my husband...it made me really happy inside and at peace. Finally our family legacy is forever changed..and in the best way.

    Your perceptions seem to be really off...or you feel the need to project your own issues on to me because you can't accept honesty. Either that or you are Anniebal's lifecoach. I have no idea. Perhaps if you read ALL my prior threads from the beginning you would see that your assumptions are wrong. You would also see where right off the bat Anniebal jumped on me and misread my post right from the start. People only see what they want to... And for you and Anniebal that means seeing me as evil just because I am a DIL....no matter how different I am from your DIL's or how different my husband's situation is with his parents compared to your situation.

    Thank you njtea...someone actually sees what I see. It is disturbing to say the least.

    Cheers.

  • rookins81
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Anniebal.. you say I don't belong here and to leave the forum..I am immature and naive(interesting since those who know me say the opposite). You are adding to your list of namecalling towards me. Would you like to continue? Why are you so hateful? I think you must be imagining me as your DIL so now you can spew your hate on to me and pretend I am her. It is really sad. And to be honest I really hope things change for you..as I have said before. I wouldn't wish estrangement on anyone (for either side). My only advice is to let the hate go Anniebal and come from a place of forgiveness towards your son AND DIL..and maybe things will change.

  • amyfiddler
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Anni- it looks as if you are yelling at me. Not sure why? This thread IS for everyone, no one needs get tossed for expressing themselves either which way. Everyone's experience is different. To project your own issues on to others is fruitless.

    I will say this. Everyone has a right to be angry. That doesn't mean it is the best way to reach your goals - other people have different ideas of how to reach goals. If this forum is ONLY supposed to be a dumping ground, with no constructive input on how to actually go about solving the problems, then what this thread becomes is a negative feeding ground for more anger. It does not serve you to simply dump repeatedly, and recruit forces to support your point of view without considering that there might be other ways to look at things. If you are not interested in solving your problem, then keep doing what you are doing.

    There is a time and place for dumping, and this certainly is a safe place to dump. However, there comes a point when it becomes actually more destructive than helpful. Those who continue to cheer you on are not your friends. They only feed the bitterness, and that will not solve your problem

    It is in your best interest to be able to come, dump, and then open your mind to other options - because clearly your path is not working.

    There are estrangements in my family, I was curious to see how people handle it, and I am interested in knowing more about Rookins experiences. To turn the ship around after seven years is commendable. To look at yourself and make changes within first is respectable and honorable.

  • jankin
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Rookins I dont think you are evil at all where do you get that idea -
    I dont know anyone here personally and I'm unlikely to ever meet any od you - I am not in a position to judge anyone - the honi soi reference is one we use here not to say that someone is evil but that they misinterpret things negatively - if I do it
    and my husband will say to me 'honi soi' and vice versa.
    Actually I dont hate anyone - I may have said that word when I was young but time buffers off the sharp edges of the word and the emotion' - hate is a killer.
    I just found this a comfort place to be in my suffering - I know you only by what you write I repeat I only know you from the language you use.
    I shant return here because there's enough conflict right now out there - and I'm surprised by the 'teeth' - may we Brits are just too laid back!
    Best wishes to you and everyone else thanks for helping me
    at a time of trouble.

    I wont attempt swim the atlantic again.

  • rookins81
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Amyfiddler,

    I can see you are at the same place of rational thinking and forgiveness. I do not know about your situation but would like to know more for sure.

    I do not claim to be an expert by any means. Every situation is different also and I realize this. All I know is that we were once estranged from my husband's family and are not any longer. All I can offer is what worked and what didn't as advice. You are right we all have to look within to make a change. I looked within to see what I was doing to fuel the situation and when I reached a place of true forgiveness all the anger or hurt slipped away. I then decided to approach my husband to see if he would be able to do the same. Eventually in time he was and did! I really at this point don't care who was right or wrong and so forth. It is all trivial now. We only have this one life..one family. I watched my son play with his grandparents (my in-laws and my parents) this weekend and it was beyond moving to witness. I was so happy he has all this family. The past is now gone and we can move on to a positive future.

    It may sound cheesy to some but really I used a lot of imagery and encouraged my husband to do the same. Power of Intention works. I imagined peace and forgiveness and actually envisioned them coming to our house and it being nothing but good...and when they did it was literally what I had imagined. It may sound like new age rhetoric but really I think our thoughts and emotions affect everything in our lives no matter what the other person does. Like when you meet someone for the first time and they immediately rub you the wrong way...it is their energy doing that. People can sense this. I knew that if we approached my in-laws and were defensive or bitter that they would sense this and in turn act in the same way. So instead I said outloud daily that I forgave them and wished for peace..along with envisioning it. My husband took a little more time to work through his feelings but he did...and this weekend he was able to just sit and talk comfortably with his folks without any issues being present.

    I think we all changed in the end (unlike Anniebal's opinion that I did not change at all and am selfish and horrible). Life is too short. Embrace people even when they make you angry or you don't understand them. Sometimes that is all it takes to break down a wall between you and then the process of healing can begin.

  • rookins81
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I apologize if I misread your post to me. I must say I was taken back when you said I sound hateful and bitter in my post to Anniebal. I was really just alarmed at her words myself and it was only an honest reply to HER. That doesn't mean I am bitter about my own situation (or past situation now). I realize now that this is a losing battle with Anniebal..the fact that I am a DIL means she will never respect my opinion and will take every opportunity to peg me as bad.

    You should not leave the forum at all.

  • amyfiddler
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The imagery technique is quite powerful. I believe I have used that at times, and it has worked. I'm going to apply it where it makes sense -

    Thanks for your insights.

  • amyfiddler
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Honi soi -
    I like that. Jankin, the atlantic is quite warm. Occasionally you have to watch for Jellyfish -

    No need to leave upset. There is a place here for everyone.

  • sniffles07
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good luck to you all...I'm out.

  • amyfiddler
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Darnit, I wish they would let us edit. That was my outside voice, wasn't it? Here is what the adult in me would like to say - LOL.

    This looks to be a pattern - when people don't see things your way, you get angry, and then you abandon and reject. Consider the title of this topic, and you'll see consistency.

    Try something new.

  • anniebal
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, well, the young against the supposed old I guess. The only time I came down on your rookins which is greatly exagerated, is when I stated that your generation is very entitled. To this you jumped down my throat, not the other way around. As for calling names, when I state I feel you are immature and naive, that is an opinion or judgment, certainly not name calling. Perhaps you need to review your english studies.

    No one hear knows how angry I am, how I suppress that anger, how I handle myself in other situations so quit trying to act like you know that if I'm angry that I must not be able to hide it around son & DIL. That's completely ridiculous. I have never thought that just because you rookins are a DIL that you and my DIL are one in the same, I've never even implied it, so if you think that way it is the chip on your shoulder and no other.

    Rookins states that it was her husband who estranged himself from his parents, that she had nothing to do with it. Yet, it was she and her husband that changed the way 'they' thought and things became at peace. I seriously doubt no matter what your role rookins, that you did indeed play a part in this play.

    I can't wait for Amy and Rookins to get a little older and wiser, and then hear their opinions of the world. I thought I knew everything at their age, as do most people. There is a reason why they treat the elderly with great respect in Japan, and that is because they have lived life fully, and seen most if not all of what it has to offer. Only in this country do they attempt to hang on to their youthful looks as if that makes them any younger. It is how you feel inside, not out, that makes the difference.

    It seems there has been a lot of misinterpretation in these posts, and there probably always will be. It is too difficult to judge from an email just what a persons emotional state is.

    When I found this site I was thrilled because I am the type of person who keeps my anger and hurt inside. It was finally a place that I could voice anything I felt about the people who have hurt me since I can never say the things here that I would say to them. So for some of you to come to the conclusion that I must not be able to hide my hate when I see the people I love since I voice it so freely here, is quite a leep and simply stupid. I have been eating my DILs wrath since she started dating my son. I have done nothing but bend over, apologize and be pleasant. My husband has done the same, but hasn't hid his feelings quite as good as me when tensions were high. Yet we never did anything that would have led to the estrangement we now have. DIL has planted lies and brainwashed our son like a pro. If I can't vent here, then I possibly will show my feelings to my son & DIL, and that is something I want to avoid at all costs. It sickens me the conclusions some people can draw, and the hurt they can produce from those conclusions. If this is the type of posts that are going to be made after a person vents that is very hurt, very angry, and at her wits end on what to do to change the situation, then I will start writing a diary where I don't need to hear any hurtful and negative feedback regarding who I am.

    anniebal

  • rookins81
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Amy,
    This is insanity isn't it? It's not even worth it to reply to her posts anymore. I am done...

    It is sad to see people who are so seething with anger that they cannot heal.

    Bye for good..

  • amyfiddler
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've been called young. Now that's insane...but I could get used to that - !!!! If only it were true.

  • imaginny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Anniebal and everyone,
    Message boards are great resources for support. However, they aren't a substitute for a professional therapist. I've seen division and conflict develop in another online group (Family Rifts) which is set up as a support on this same topic. People tend to project all kinds of things onto complete strangers. It is a sensitive topic and it is easy to read between the lines and find things that may or may not be there. I have seen it happen in other places that people start judging each other, arguing, and leaving the group as the arguments begin and the discussion gets more heated.

    I think some people come to a board such as this and it becomes their main source of support. A board like this is not a substitute for a good professional therapist. The people that come here to discuss are just people who are hurting or have been hurt in the past. None of us are professionals. This is like a group therapy situation and things are playing out as they do sometimes in group therapy but there is not a professional here who can intervene and point out things that might bring the discussion back to a place where something productive can come of it.

    Anniebal, I do think that you could benefit a lot by seeing a therapist. Not because I think that you need to be "fixed". But because you could benefit from the input and support of someone who was more neutral, more objective, and who would be less likely to get into a fight with you about how you are feeling and thinking. I think that you are hoping to get more out of this board than it can provide. There are limits to what an online support group can do and what is happening right now is a demonstration of that.

    I wish you all the best and hope that in the long run there is resolution and healing.

    Ginny

  • imaginny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    On the topic of enlisting support from family and others to try to convince the estranger of the error of their ways, I can't recall that I have ever seen it work out. I have seen it happen that anyone else who jumps into the situation and tries to change someone's mind, that they usually end up being estranged by them too.

    I think too that it complicates things. The situation goes from the estrangement being only between a very few family members to being between many more as more and more are enlisted to take sides.

    I say this because that is what I've seen happen. If enlisting the support of others worked, then I'd be all for it.

    I recall one time that someone's brother did reconnect with the sister that he had estranged for years because he found a girlfriend who urged him to reconcile. But no one asked his girlfriend to do that. She did it on her own. If someone had asked her to do it, maybe it wouldn't have worked out the way that it did.

    Sometimes, as hard as it is, it makes sense to learn acceptance and patience and stop fighting what is.

    Ginny

  • anniebal
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    To imaginny, I have been seeing a therapist off and on for 6 months. They have helped me a great deal, but when I'm not seeing them for a few weeks and something happens that is stressful in-between, I come to this board to vent and get others opinions on my situation. However, I don't come here to be judged by people who are not professionals. Just as one cannot hear voice inflictions in a written letter, the same goes for an email. It is just far too easy to mis-interpret who or what someone is saying or acting by reading an email or post.

    My therapist has confirmed everything I think about my son and DIL. She is working with me to help me not obcess over the situation, which has been the most difficult part. It seems just as I'm doing better, that then I'm confronted with a situation such as seeing him/them at my sisters home. It was so hurtful to hear him in the kitchen with his wife yucking it up with anyone else but me & my husband. I don't care if he keeps up his ties with the rest of the family, what I care about is being there when he is doing it. The family isn't going to cut them out of their lives, they are simply going to suggest that they come see them a different day then when we will not be there. They are going to be sure to let him know that they love him, but that it is hurting his parent's too much to be at the same get together as them, and that we're going to avoid it whenever possible. I don't think this is enlisting them to get my son to change, that was never the plan.

    Even my therapist stated that by the rest of the family continuing to see them and act just the same to them as they do to us, is a form of enabling. My sons aunts and uncles are not holding him accountable for bad behavior, at all. In this sense, it emboldens my son and dil to believe they have done no wrong, since if they were wrong, the family certainly wouldn't be so inviting and nice to them. I hope this makes sense, since it makes perfect sense to me. It's just like my husband whose parent's were alcoholics. We learned all about how the family enables this type of bad behavior and it isn't until that stops that the alcoholic is forced to face their problem.

    All I want is the people who love me to at least appreciate how much it hurts to be at the same gathering as my son & dil when they don't acknowledge us. The only way he seems to be able to talk to us is if we speak to him, he never strikes up a conversation with us. It was my youngest son at the last get together that my son text messaged asking him a question about my husband and I. My youngest son text messaged him back saying that if he wants to know, to ask me himself. That was good thinking on my youngests part. I truly believe that my dil has given him some type of ultimatum about talking to us or seeing us. He won't even take a phone call, which seems really extreme.

    My husband simply shook hands with both my son and dil at the last get together. When my son was leaving and they did approach everyone to say goodbye, my dil was going to make a curve by my husband in order to avoid his handshake. This didn't stop my husband however, and he extended his hand so that she couldn't avoid it. However, when she shook his hand, she turned away and had these pursed lips and angry look on her face. It really showed her true colors to say the least. I was glad that our youngest son witnessed the look on her face, otherwise we probably would have thought we were exagerating because of our bias.

    As hard a time as I had with my husband's father when we married, I never made any faces or display of a lack of respect. His father was very hard to deal with because of his alcohol and control problem. I came from a very italian home where when we were mad we raised our voices, and even shouted at times. Later, the dust would settle and no one was upset, it was just the way things were. However, at my hubby's his dad and mom were from the south, and very strict (on top of being alcoholics, or from it.) His dad thought I was too wild I think, and my husbands little sister lead him to believe this. It took years for his dad to come to like me, but it was never an issue of even considering not seeing him or his mom. It was just a given that one see's each others parents.

    Parents are people, they make mistakes, but it does seem today (generally speaking of course,) there are many young adults who have a very hard time with the parent's not meeting their expectations. I never heard of any estrangements growing up. The family had arguements and would walk away mad sometimes from their siblings, but next time there was a get together everything was as usual. I guess i just don't get the cutting people out of your life thing. I don't get not trying to get along, afterall, your only together with your married children 1/2 dozen times a year. Surely during these few visits they can all put their negative feelings about each other aside, and just get along for the day?

    I guess I'm old fashioned.

    I am trying to learn acceptance and patience, but this has been the hardest thing I've ever had to deal with, even exceeding the death of my father who I was so close to. I had an equally close relationship with my oldest son, as did my husband. We are a very kiss and hug family, and we did almost everything with our kids while they were growing up. We defintely put them first that's for sure. I think the problem came in when my son met my dil and she was not from a close family. Perhaps she felt threatened by our relationship (all of ours, not just mine.) There was certainly something that made her dislike us, and it was from almost the very beginning. We spent 3.5 years trying to please my son and his new wife until we took them on an expensive vacation only for my dil to be moody, sulky, and aloof without explanation. We finally boiled over at the last few days of the trip. My son saw her behavior, but didn't say or do anything in our defense. If he had, I think all of this would or could have been avoided. Yet, my therapist tells me that with her personality, it will always be something. She is so right, it is unbelievable. Until my son can stand up to her and say he's not going to take her treating his mom and dad in this manner, and that he still can have a relationship with us whether she likes us or not, nothing will change.

    She almost certainly has a personality disorder, probably narcisstic. That is hard to impossible to deal with.

    amniebal

    PS...please know that I come hear to scream and let everything out that I can't do around anyone else except my husband since no one would understand. I'm really nothing but nice to my son and dil when I see them, and my youngest son told me he is so proud of how I act in front of them. I've asked him because i want to be sure I'm not showing negative emotion.

  • amyfiddler
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I recommend you show this thread to your therapist so she can understand your pain.

  • imaginny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Anniebal, You wrote, "However, I don't come here to be judged by people who are not professionals."

    Yes, I can understand that. No one else comes here to be judged by people who are not professionals too. You dislike being judged and I do understand that. However, you seem to be missing the fact that you are doing a whole lot of judging of others who post here. This is triggering a whole lot of irritation and anger by everyone who is feeling judged by you.

    In another recent post you said, "As for calling names, when I state I feel you are immature and naive, that is an opinion or judgment, certainly not name calling." So you know when you are judging someone.

    As for generations and estrangement, my FIL who is now in his eighties estranged his entire family many decades ago. My Italian MIL from my first marriage estranged her younger sister for something like 25 years over something petty. She was in her nineties when she died. There is an excellent book on estrangement, "Fragmented Families", which talks about estrangement in depth over the centuries. It is written by a woman in her seventies.

    Estrangement isn't so simple as being the responsibility of one generation or another. Nor is it something that can be easily resolved under the conditions that you describe. It can't be pushed and pulled. It isn't black and white.

    My post about enlisting others in the family to take sides was more about the idea of asking others to talk to your son and DIL than it was about asking your sister and others to invite you and your son to come at different times. I can see how that might make sense. However, as painful as it is to be present while your son & DIL are having a good time, if you are all there for family gatherings, the chances of things eventually getting smoothed over are higher than if you don't see each other at all. I have been told in the past that feelings won't kill us and that has been true so far in my life. Sometimes if you take the high road and remember that your feelings won't kill you, you can stand quite a bit.

    I know this is painful and it would be infinitely preferable to find a solution in the near future. Sometimes we just don't have any choice in the matter. Pushing can make it worse.

    Ginny

  • anniebal
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Ginny. I see your point in my statement regarding judgment. However, that being said, I do not think I have judged others on here before they have judged me. Every time I have felt defensive, it is because someone has made derogatory remarks about me and my anger. I can say almost 100 percent that I would never have made negatives remarks if they hadn't been thrown at me first.

    As far as enlisting help, we have asked that someone close to us talk to our son. However, no one has followed through. His grandmother has been the only one to try to get him to calm down and talk with us. My son manages to pat her on the leg and just put her off with his words that everything will work out.

    Whether it strengthens the chance of us smoothing things out or not, I'm not going to expose myself to my son and his wife at get togethers. If that is what it takes, I doubt it would be much of a relationship anyway. My son has to quit being an injustice collector, realize the mistakes they have made, and really try to move ahead without dwelling on the past mistakes he feels we have made. Despite all our hurt, we've been willing to move forward with no mention of our past difficulties. Unfortunately they cannot do this.

    That's interesting that you knew of so many estrangements. As I stated, I knew of none until my sister and I were apart for 2-3 years. My sister is also an injustice collector, much like my son and dil. I bent over backwards my entire life for her, but eventually she got so weird that we broke off relations for a while. Since we've been sisters again it has been much better, but she is also on meds to help her manage her issues. We'll never be really close, but we are happy to see each other, have normal conversations and genuinely care about each other. I just can't let my guard down again for fear I will be hurt again. I'm sure this is how it will be with my son if we do ever re-unite.

    We have undoubtably taken the high road, and been the more mature (as we should be I feel.) The ball is in his/their court now, and once again I am working at moving on. Seeing him just sets me back, every time.

    anniebal

  • garden60
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My adult son and I have always been close. When an old high school girlfriend resurfaced after 6 years (she dumped him before), they were engaged within 3 months, he drew out all his savings ($11,000) to buy a townhouse she and her step-mother picked out (she hates her biological mother) put her name on the deed; when it came to wedding plans, her step mom told us we were to split the bill but they would invite 120 guests and my husband and I could invite 60 guests. DIL was very demanding, calling me to tell me we should give them more $$ for the wedding than her parents,she" would decide where the grooms dinner would be, etc. Then my son and DIL sent us an email saying my other son is no longer in the wedding, we are not allowed to come to the grooms dinner/rehearsal and could not invite anyone to the wedding. At the wedding they had 185 guests, our side was 14 people he invited. 3 weeks after the wedding they came to our house told us we were not welcome at their wedding but nonetheless, were mad because we didnÂt stay for all of the reception/dance. She challenged our son to "tell your mother off". She swore, and they left our house with my DIL yelling at my husband and I "F _ _ _ You."

    We invited them for Thanksgiving and Christmas, no response and did not show. Her plan was to pull my son completely away from his immediate family. He is afraid of losing her if he causes a riffle. I sent them an email saying we have all hurt each other but we are starting a new year, should offer and receive apologies and let me be the first to apologize (for not meeting DIL demands, ?). Anyway, no response. I called him 3 weeks ago to see if we could have lunch, got his voicemail, then he emailed me to say he has crohn's disease (surprise to me) and that he wants NO more emails, phone calls, birthday cards, etc. HE will let us know if and when he wants to connect with us again? Has anyone else been where we are?

  • anniebal
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Garden60, your story sounds all too familiar to me. It sounds like your son is with the same type of woman my son married. Have you read Mark Sichels book on Healing Family rifts & estrangements? I recommend it even if it doesn't end up getting you back together, it will offer some perspective as to why this happens.

    How is your younger son taking it after he was told he wasn't in the wedding? How close in age are they? It sounds like you met all their demands, which is very much like we did. We loved our son so much that we wanted to do anything to keep him happy, and if that meant giving in to outlandish demands, being criticized for things we didn't do, or mean to do, and apologizing countless times for crimes we didn't commit.

    We also were restricted with the wedding plans. We were told we invited too many people (though we were in the amount they allowed us to have,) then we were told that I didn't need to invite some of the people on the list, that my son didn't know them so why would they be invited.

    Your situation sounds even worse then ours however. I can't imagine that you were only allowed to have 14 people! Did you ever question this, or did they raise a fit when you did? How was this ever justified? Also, how did it come that you didn't get to choose the place for the rehearsal dinner, did they pay for it themselves? Do you know her biological parents at all? I wonder if she doesn't like her real mother because she has put her mom through the same type of things that she and your son put you through for their wedding.

    It sounds like your dil set her sites on your son because she wanted to get married, but didn't want the family that comes along with it. Your son is probably a go along, like mine is. I have kept waiting for my son to tell his wife that she has gone too far, and I've been waiting for this since shortly after they were dating! Yet, he says nothing. She has completely brainwashed him against us. He will not even take our calls, or take up several offers we've made to get together, move on, put the bad memories in the past, and try to resolve things.

    How long has it been since you've seen him, or since the blow out of your dil telling you to 'F' off? What did your son do when she said that to you. Our you married, or divorced? How is your (ex?)husband handling this?

    It took us 3.5 years to reach the point we did last June, when my dil ruined the trip to Hawaii that we took them on, and paid for. It was arguing all summer, and finally things came to a massive head the 3rd week of October. We didn't see him/them for Thanksgiving, Christmas, or New Years. In early January I sent both a text message and voice message asking if he and I could just get together to talk things over, that I had some ideas about how we could reconcile the situation and move forward. A day after he got my message I received an email telling me he isn't emotionally ready to see us. He also used this occassion to give me a cheap apology for what he called me during our arguement in October. His grandmother had been telling him that he should apologize for what he said, even if we still don't see each other. Well, I opened the door for him on this one since now technically he apologized like his grandma wanted! It was awful and cheap.

    Then when my husband decided to text my son and let him know that are neighbor who he is/was very close to is dying of cancer. We decided that he should know this, regardless of our relationship. My son sent a two sentence email to my husband thanking him for the information, and then another 'oh by the way' sorry to hear about the cancer on your nose! The skin cancer happened a month before his remark, and this again was a chance for him to appear to be doing the right thing. The question of course would be why he didn't contact his dad if he was really concerned?!!

    Since then we were exposed to them in person at a gathering at my sisters. Though we were very cordial to them, they wouldn't strike up any conversation with us. Finally I butted into a conversation between my brother and son, just to hopefully get him to talk to me. Though he answered my questions, it was the shortest conversation ever. I hugged them both goodbye, though my husband would only shake their hands, and it was over. It is really difficult to hear your family laughing and carrying on with a woman that you feel has ruined your family relationship with your son. It was so hurtful that I told my sister and brother I won't do this again. Perhaps as some say it is an opportunity for things to eventually smooth over, but I don't see it this way. I know this girl all to well. I know what a liar and manipulator she is. I know she is narcisstic, and thus exhibits a superior attitude to make up for her low self esteem. I know my dil is not close to her own family, but I also know that her family jumps at the snap of their daughters fingers. I think my dil mom is the same as she is. The husband, or my dil dad is depressed, withdrawn, and barely participates in any conversation. My son told me before they were married that he told his wife that he never wanted her treating him like her mom treats her dad. My son had a million red flags, but didn't allow any of them to interfere with the plans. Now I picture him becoming like my dil dad.

    Anyway, there are many of us here are where you are. Your not alone, but the hurt is so deep for me to this day that I am seeing a therpaist, and still frequent this board for support. The forum is great for venting, unless some people wish to form opinions about you based on that venting. I've never attacked anyone, but have in defense to negative comments about me, lashed back.

    I'm interested in hearing more details from you. In the mean time, get that book, it does help.

    anniebal

  • allid72
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have been reading this forum having experienced estrangement in my own family. I must say I was hesitant to post but after reading the recent post I felt the need to. I think annebal and garden60 are the same poster. You can tell in the writing style and the too similar storyline. I think she wanted to continue a dialogue with herself. I have been a member of other forums and have seen this happen many times. Members will have several usernames they post under to get attention and start fights. They also call them internet trolls. It is unfortunate since it ruins the forum itself for everyone else.

    Just had to point that out. I will not be posting my experience here now after seeing what this poster is up to unless she leaves the forum eventually. Seems almost everyone else here has good things to say.

    Allison

  • anniebal
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    amyfiddler, allison and rookins....your hardly worth the time I'm taking to respond, however I waste a few seconds. Your paranoid accusations, criticisms, unsupported opinions are not welcome here. People at this site need to count on others for support and understanding, and that's not what you have to offer. How dare you imply that I am posing as two people, or that someone is writing in support of me! If someone is writing in my defense it is because they feel so inclinded to do so. I don't need to create a duel personality so that I can shower myself with false support. I could careless if any of the three of you understand, or offer support to me. You don't belong on a forum that is seeking to help others and have others empathize with the immense pain that is resulting from our children's estrangement. Unfortunately, I feel the three of you are the cause of those estrangements. This would explain some of your hostile remarks, heartless comments, lack of empathy, and lies.

    I truly hope you three will find another forum to go to where this is acceptable behavior.

    I understand now why sniffles left, I just feel so badly that you three are the reason.

  • garden60
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A friend of mine who reads this post suggested I read about sniffles' situation. I guess I haven't read every post so didn't know she no longer shares herself.

    To answer a few of the questions: 1) it is my younger son who is estranged; his older brother by 3 years has no communication with him since he told him he didn't want him in his wedding; 2) we didn't meet all their demands because it was my DIL making them, not my son and we said our son had to ask us for money, not her; 3) after the email telling us no guests, they asked us to meet with them at a park. My husband and I believe they sent their email too quickly telling us we were not involved any longer and our check would be returned, in the hopes we would plead with them to reconsider. We did not; we just told them we would go along with their wishes; 4) my DIL insisted the rehearsal dinner would be where she wanted it, we gave in and my husband dropped a check off with my son to pay for it, but then we told we could not attend. I recenlty found out they told everyone we refused to come (the minister commented that they are very immature and she is a drama queen); 5) we saw our son and DIL about 6 months ago when she was so verbally abusive in our home; 6) my husband says after the email from our son telling us he wants nothing to do with us to just leave them alone; he thinks she will leave our son and then he will reconnect with his family again; and 7) my family (small - I have 1 sister and my husband is an only child) want nothing to do with my son because of his nastiness.

    Hope that answers your questions. I have huge support groups with family, friends, a Christian counsellor, but yet each day can be a challenge if I allow my thinking to stray to the typical mother thoughts "what if". I am working on living my life to the fullest, even if it means without my son. I count my blessing every day. My sister keeps telling me to not loose any brain cells thinking sad thoughts. She is right.

  • imaginny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Allison, I read several boards on the topic of estrangement and I have read garden60's posts on one of those boards. I read the post on the other board suggesting to garden60 that she come here and read this board. Garden60 and anniebal are two different mothers.

    I've seen it happen where someone will use two identities on a board. Or even three or more. But it's not happening in the case of anniebal and garden60.

    Ginny

  • njtea
    Original Author
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Allison, so many of our estrangements are so very similar, especially in those cases when an estranged child is married to a controller, that it is easy to get posters and experiences mixed up.

  • imaginny
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think the board is at its limit of 150 posts. I can try to start a new thread but don't know how to do it. I'll look to see if I can find out how. If I don't succeed, perhaps someone who knows how to do it will start one?

    Ginny

  • forms
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Some random thoughts about this from someone who is NOT young.

    If my MIL wanted me to call her "mom", she'd be out of luck. Nope, sorry, get over it. If she wanted me to call her "Mrs. Last Name", I'd be fine with it--providing she called me "Mrs. Last Name" as well. I understand not wanting to be called by your first name, however, it's a foolish MIL who makes an issue out of it (even if you drop it later). Most ILs who don't settle the question to everyone's satisfaction, end up not calling their ILs anything. This works, even if it's a bit awkward.

    Even if you pay for part of the wedding, or the house downpayment, or the vacation, or the baby gear, or whatever...YOU GET NO SAY. If you can't give a gift without strings attached, don't give the gift. The difference between a gift and a bribe is...what? The strings. The only legitimate stipulation you put on it is that is cannot be used for anything illegal. If you are making a business deal, (like house downpayment money to be used ONLY for a house downpayment--not for a new car, etc...), put it in writing. If you can't afford to lose the money, don't give it. If you can't give it without strings, don't give it. They will learn to refuse ANY gifts from you, and you will be left wailing: "I'm not even allowed to give my grandchildren a birthday present." Remember: it's not a present if you feel the gift entitles you to ANYTHING more than a thank you. If you do feel entitled to something in return, it's a business deal and you are required to state upfront the return expectations. Bait and switch is illegal and unethical. "I'll buy you a car, if you spend summer vacation with me" if fair; your adult child has the right to agree or not.

    If you want a wedding done your way, get married yourself or remarry your husband. Other than that, shut up and leave it alone. It's not your turn, it's not your wedding, your opinions and preferences and taste don't matter. You have no more say in your child's wedding, than you have a say in MY child's wedding.

    And that brings up the subject of rights, and I say this as the parent of an adult child--you have none. NONE. You may have some rights in certain circumstances, such as they live under your roof, so you set the rules of the household. But in truth, in reality, legally...you have NO RIGHTS. Wise parents don't forget this. Adult children in America have the right to completely abandon their parents and to shut them out in every way. You don't have the right to give them advice, to decide their medical treatment, to choose their careers, spouses, or domicile. You don't have the right to call, to visit, to spend holidays together, to expect repayment for all you did as a parent. As soon as you hear yourself saying, "I have the right..." or even THINK it, remind yourself that you are wrong. Yes, you are WRONG. And you are fooling yourself and setting yourself up for disapointment. A wise mother/MIL appreciates and is grateful for everything she receives from her adult children, even if she wishes it were more. The more you appreciate and the less you demand, the more you will end up with. We've all heard the story of the mother who spends a rare visit with her son whining that he doesn't visit more; and then wonders why he doesn't want to see her.

    Also remember: in no relationship do both people care the same. There is always someone who cares more and someone who cares less. The person who cares less has the most power. When that well-established psychological rule of thumb is applied to intergenerational relationships, it mostly plays out that the younger generation cares less about the relationship than the older one. There are many reasons for this: older people have fewer distractions in life (careers, education, hobbies, friends, minor children, financial obligations, etc...) and value relationships more, and life tends to look forward not back. Your adult children are genetically programed to feel more attachment to their partner and their own children than to their parents. No amount of whining, manipulation, or guilt tripping will change that. Love for partner and children does not exclude love for parent, but it is important for parents of adult children to understand their place in their children's lives. It's a difficult change, because at one point you DID have all the power in the relationship and you WERE the most important person in your child's life. Some parents find the change in status to be liberating; many parents of adult children find the change in status difficult and frightening. They cling, they demand, they set up tests of loyalty, they try to manuevre proof that nothing has changed...and they lose out. It's a huge change to your life to bring a child into it...and it's an equally large adjustment to see them go. If you don't let go voluntarily, they will wrench themselves away violently. The closer you were, the larger the chasm. The parent has to let it happen. Once the boundary has been well established, and only until it's been established, can the adult child form an adult version of a close parent/child relationship. All parents think they've let go; many of those with trouble parent child relationships have not, and are fooling themselves.

    "If you loved my son you would...", "If you loved your mother you would...", "If you loved your husband you would..." Sorry, that's just plain manipulation. Those sentences are generally completed by demands that have nothing to do with love. It is manipulation, it's CLASSIC manipulation, and even when people can't put their finger on what's wrong with it, they know it and feel manipulated. My MIL tried this; she wanted my husband's attention on our honeymoon. "If your wife loved you, she would let you spend time with your mother on your honeymoon." And I pointed out, "If MIL really loved her son, she'd leave him alone on his honeymoon." Yes, she huffed and puffed about how there was no doubt she loved him, but she never pulled that stunt again.

    Remember: just because someone does not like you or rejects you, it does not make them an "N". Nor does disliking you make anyone mentally ill, defective, immature, unable to love (they are just unable to love YOU perhaps), jealous, insecure, immature or anything. Remember also, a famous characteristic of "N"s is the proclivity to label everyone else "N"s. If someone doesn't like you, it's probably for the same reason you don't like them: because of personality and flaws, and probably because of mistakes in the relationship. Apologize for the mistakes you made. If the relationship is important to you, mitigate the parts of you they object to when you are around them. If the other one is bothered by your excessive talking, talk less around them. You aren't OBLIGATED to modify your behavior around them, but then again, they aren't obligated to be around you. Dr Phil points out: people gravitate toward pleasure and away from pain. You cause your adult children pain, they will probably drift away. Conversely, if they've drifted away, you've probably caused them pain.

    Another thing: adult children almost never become estranged without first trying to reason it out with their parents first. They will tell you what the problem is and ask you to do something different. You are a FOOL if you ignore this. This is the only way you are going to be able to fix the problem--listen and RESPECT the complaint and change. Dismissing their complaint will not fix it, minimizing it will not work, arguing about it will not work. If the complaint is so off the wall or outrageous, such as accusing you of sexual molestation, the problem is unfixable, and it is in your best interest to support the estrangement, or work through it with professional intervention. However, this is rare. Most adult children who have complaints about their parents strong enough to cut them off are not inventing things out of nowhere, they may be blowing them a bit out of proportion, but they have valid complaints.

    If you are punitive to your adult children (ie, I don't like how they behaved on vacation, so you insist they call you a different name), do not be surprised if they are punitive to you. Don't scream bloody unfair when after you've given the grandchildren chocolate though being told not to, your adult children say you won't be seeing them the rest of the summer. If you give your kids the silent treatment, don't be surprised if you get it right back.

    Words once spoken exist forever, you can't erase them by saying, "Everyone says horrible things when they are angry". Actually no, but even if it were true, words once said cannot be unspoken. Don't expect people to pretend you didn't say them. All you can do is apologize sincerely and stop saying hateful things. You aren't in Jr High School, so don't act like it. If you find yourself doing this too often, it's YOUR problem (meaning no one's making you do it), get a therapist and learn self control and healthier ways of expressing yourself. Remember, if you attack people you claim you love, they will eventually start to avoid you.

    Any woman who tries to persuade your adult child not to marry is a HUGE FOOL. Remember your adult child knows everything about their potential spouse PLUS STUFF YOU DON'T--and they've still decided to marry. It may indeed be the biggest mistake ever, and you may be completely right. But you might as well commit hari keri than to argue, badger, and nag your child into not marrying someone they want to marry.

    All parents of adult children need to know the difference between helping and meddling. The difference is: is your input wanted? If no one asked you, assume your advice or 'help' is unwanted. It's your job to ENSURE your contribution is welcomed. If you go ahead and 'help' and find out later it was not wanted, you were the one who was wrong. Your good intentions don't count. Just don't do it. Don't interfere, impose, advise, butt in, until you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that your participation is welcome. Arguing about whether or not someone should want your help is like arguing that someone should like brussel sprouts; if they don't, they don't. Nobody thanks meddlers, even well intentioned ones who are just trying to be nice. Nice people make sure they aren't imposing; well intentioned people listen to the wishes of others. Fools jump in where angels fear to tred. Let your children manage their own money, careers, education, decorate their own houses, raise their own children, and plan their own vacations and holidays. If they want to include you, great. But they don't have to, and you have no right to insist. And your wisdom, experience, and maturity don't mean as much to other people as you think--they are yours. Also remember you don't have to bail them out of their mistakes, but if you do, don't assume that gives you permission to take over their lives.

    Don't expect everyone to fight your battles for you. If you are angry with your adult children, don't think everyone else in the family or the community should take up your cause. This is a strong indicator of dysfunctional relationships. It's call triangulation and it ALWAYS makes communication worse and problem solving more difficult. Other people have their own relationships and experiences with your estranged children, and it's not fair to expect them to sacrifice those relationships to make you feel better. If everyone has problems with the estranged adult child, don't be gleeful: you are the one who raised this difficult person, you bear some responsibility for how disappointingly they turned out. And if the estrangement hurts you, you still hurt no matter who agrees or disagrees.

    Remember too, no one can MAKE your adult child ignore you. No one can steal your child, no one can turn them against you. Your child can contact you if he really wanted to. He would see you if he cared enough to. No matter how horrible you imagine your child's spouse to be, no matter how much pressure you think your DIL or Son-IL puts on your child to cut you off, the fact is there are always ways to keep in contact with you if they wanted. It's hurtful to acknowledge that your child chooses to participate in shunning you. But it's also the beginning of healing the rift. You can make all the excuses for your child you want (he's weak, he's scared, he's immature, he's brainwashed, he's a complete idiot, he's mentally ill too), but until you deal with the fact that he is choosing to reject you, you will not see his point of view, and without seeing his point of view, you can't fix a thing.

    ANd finally, just because you put up with mistreatment and disagreeableness from your parents and in-laws does not mean, your children and in laws must put up with disagreeableness from you. Things change, and not putting up with disagreeable people is a positive change in society. If you are a certain age, it was completely acceptable for your father to beat your mother; now it's not, and the world is a better place for it (altho wife beaters usually don't agree).

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