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Education: Public V.S. Private

Posted by silversword (My Page) on
Fri, Sep 26, 08 at 11:57

I'm curious... did you go to public school or private? Do you send your children to public or private? Why? If you had different finances, would you make a different decision? Do you think private school is a better education, or just a better environment?

Have you ever been the minority? Is your child a minority? What do you think about sticking with your own class/race?

How far do you drive your children, or how far do they walk to school? If you don't go to the school in your district, why not?

I'm asking because I don't want to hijack my own thread under "Neighbor child" but it brought up this issue and I'd like to know where people stand on it. You can see where I stand on it by reading that thread. :)


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

I'm curious... did you go to public school or private?
Private

Do you send your children to public or private?
Public

Why?
excellent school system

If you had different finances, would you make a different decision?
Finances have nothing to do with it... quality of education is the issue.

Do you think private school is a better education, or just a better environment?
In some cases, neither.

Have you ever been the minority?
I've been the only girl in a room full of boys....
(Sorry, the question is too ambiguous!)

Is your child a minority?
Again, ambiguous...

What do you think about sticking with your own class/race?
I guess I've never thought about it - seeing as how I never deliberately tried to 'stick' with my own class (whatever THAT is!) or my own race.

How far do you drive your children, or how far do they walk to school?
Neither. They rode the school bus.

If you don't go to the school in your district, why not?
not applicable


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

I figured that this post was related to my comments on your other thread so I figured I would answer them.

did you go to public school or private?
Public

Do you send your children to public or private? Why?
One of my children attended private school for a year when we lived in a neighborhood that did not have a good school. (I only had one child at the time) At the time I was a single parent who could not afford a home in a better neighborhood and I needed to be near my college and work. Paying for the private school still ended up being less than if I would have lived farther from school and work in a neighborhood where I liked the public school.

Now all 4 of my kids go to public school because we live in a neighborhood that has an excellent one.

If you had different finances, would you make a different decision?
I would keep my kids in the school they are currently in even if my finances were different.

Do you think private school is a better education, or just a better environment?
It is a case by case thing I think. The private school my child went to was not any better or worse than the public school my children now attend. But, the private school was way better than the school my child would have attended at the time.

Have you ever been the minority? Is your child a minority? What do you think about sticking with your own class/race?
I went to a high school for a year where I was the minority. I can tell you I was approached agressively quite a few times by fellow students because I was not the same race as them. I would even consider some of their treatment towards me as bullying. I did nothing to instigate the fights. The girls did not even know me and approached me trying to fight and calling me racial slurs.

My children have never been a minority in their schools. I have worked in schools that are predominately one race and then the few kids there that are another race do not quite fit in. This was especially true as the kids reached middle school and high school.

How far do you drive your children, or how far do they walk to school? If you don't go to the school in your district, why not?

My children all live within walking distance from their school. When one of my children went to private school for a year we had to drive 15 minutes to his school.


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RE:Redefining Minority

Minority:
A group of people who differ racially or politically from a larger group of which it is a part.

Where I grew up, being white was the minority. Now my daughter is also the minority. I don't have any issue with that, but some people do. I was just curious of upbringing. People often call people of color "minorities" but that doesn't work if they are the majority.

Being the only girl in a room full of boys can make one the minority, but I'm asking a more general school-wide issue. When I went to the playground there were three other white kids there out of hundreds of kids.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

did you go to public school or private? Public


Do you send your children to public or private? Why? Public school. In our area, the public schools are academically head and shoulders above the private ones.


If you had different finances, would you make a different decision? No (see above).

Do you think private school is a better education, or just a better environment? In my area, private schools are pitiful. They pay their teachers far less than the public system does, they have less money to spend on equipment and programs, and so the education is really second-rate. The teachers are the 'left-overs' who couldn't land public school jobs. Now, that's my state--which has one of the highest-rated public school systems in the country. In other areas of the country, private schools are much better than public.


Have you ever been the minority? Is your child a minority? What do you think about sticking with your own class/race?
I'm not really sure how you're defining 'minority'. I'd have to say 'no' to your question. One of the reasons we chose to live in the town where we do, is that most people are of a similar income level to us. If we'd lived just one town over (where the in-laws wanted us to move), DD would have been definitely one of the 'poor' kids in the school--in a snooty town where what you have is of supreme importance. We didn't want that for our family, so we chose a town where people put far less importance on what was in your bank account.


How far do you drive your children, or how far do they
walk to school? Elementary school was .5 miles from our front door. Usually she walked, I drove her in bad weather. Jr/Sr high school was about 1.5 miles walking, 2.5 driving. But I usually drove her because walking you had to go through the woods where a little boy had been killed some years before--even though the murderer is in jail, that just creeped me out a little too much.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Answer to:

What do you think about sticking with your own class/race?
I guess I've never thought about it - seeing as how I never deliberately tried to 'stick' with my own class (whatever THAT is!) or my own race.

Class:

Social class refers to the hierarchical distinctions (or stratification) between individuals or groups in societies or cultures. Usually individuals are grouped into classes based on their economic positions and similar political and economic interests within the stratification system.

I'm asking because "class" was brought up on the other post and there was a question of how I could go from being rich to being poor without having an issue with that. I think classism is ridiculous personally and simply traded one lifestyle for one that I feel is healthier.

There was also a comment when I said I lived in a town that is referred to as "Little Mexico" since we're about 50 miles from Mexico and the majority of the population is Mexican. The reference was made that it was assumed that the population was gangbangers and criminals based on race and class. Mexicans are thought of as lower class due to their race as most new immigrants are until they assimilate. I don't think of it like this, but many people do.

I went to both public and private schools. I can see benefits in both. I'm just wondering if it's generally assumed that private is better.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Silversword,

The high school that I went to for a year that I spoke of was mostly hispanic. Then there was a portion of african american students. I was one of the only white students there. I got harassed because of this. Kids called me rude names and girls wanted to fight me because I was white and "had no right to talk to their guys". I was not talking to their boyfriends or anything, I was just friends with some hispanic and african american guys and the girls felt threatened by that I guess. They were never friendly to me.

My brother also attended that high school and many of the guys harassed him for being white. My brother had never been one to fight but he got in more fights those 4 years than ever in his whole life. He always said the fights were a result of him defending himself.

When I taught in a school that was 97% african american I used to see the white students get teased and left out. I saw a lot of bullying of the white students.

When I taught in a mostly white school I saw the few african american students getting harassed.

I just think it is hard on any race to be the minority in a school. With all the other issues adolescents face trying to find their place in school and make friends I would not want to add complications to it.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

1. I went to public school

2. One SD went to public school during 1st marriage, 1 biokid went to private school...hated it...went to public...hated it....got GED. DS and SD2 at private.

3 and 4. We send the kids to private school for religious reasons and they do receive a better quality education. We do not agree with some subjects being taught in public school, again for religious reasons. We are middle income and sacrifice other things to make this possible.

5.For us private is a better education and better environment.

6.and 7. Never a minority neither are kids.

8.Do not believer you need to stick to your own race.

9.DS drives to school with SD now....14 miles round trip...school not in district as is private.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Did you go to public school or private?

I went to public school. I hated school and was bullied quite a bit and the teachers did nothing about it nor did my parent's. I found high school incredibly boring and skipped most of the time and just showed up for exams. I still passed and got my High School diploma but I am really glad that part of my life is over.

Do you send your children to public or private? Why?

My two children are grown now but my oldest was in a public school that catered to special needs children. My youngest was in the public school system but due to problems being bullied I pulled him out and homeschooled him for his last 3 years. I'm now raising my grandson and when he is ready for school and if I don't have enough money for a private school I will be putting him into a Christian public school.

If I had more money I would choose a private school but I would expect them to live up to some standards and provide a safe environment and a quality education. To be honest the public school system sucked when I was in school and it is even worse now. There are a lot of bad influences in the public schools and they are not very safe. I also take issue with the anti God attitude that prevails in the schools. They do not support my family's value system and some of the things they teach actually oppose our values. The school system should teach the basics and leave the lifestyle choices out of the curriculum.

If you had different finances, would you make a different decision?

Of course. The more money you have the more choices you have.

Do you think private school is a better education, or just a better environment?

Probably both. But that would depend on the individual school and who was running it.
Have you ever been the minority? Is your child a minority?

No and no.

What do you think about sticking with your own class/race?

If everyone minds their own business then it probably doesn't matter. However, there can be problems when you mix classes and/or races. A lot of times they don't relate well to each other and there is no common ground. A lot of people are prejudice against certain groups and that is just a part of life.

How far do you drive your children, or how far do they walk to school?

My oldest took the bus. My youngest walked a few blocks but then did home schooling. When my grandson is ready for school he will probably be picked up by the school bus.

If you don't go to the school in your district, why not?

If my family is still living in the same neighborhood as now my grandson will be going to a school out of the community since it would be a Christian public school and not the regular public school.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Did you go to public school or private?

Here in Ontario, Canada, we have public, private, and Catholic Separate school systems. Such as English public and French public, English Catholic Separate and French Catholic Separate. The private schools are for elementary grades only and we don't have very many of them here (not very popular). In the post-secondary Separate schools, all students must wear school uniforms. In the elementary Separate schools, there are no uniforms. In the public schools, there are no uniforms.

Do you send your children to public or private? Why?

My daughter is in the Catholic Separate school system. She attended the French Separate from JK to 10th grade, and she is now attending an English Separate in the 11th grade. There is such a difference from the French and the English schools. She's loving the English school because there is so much diversity going on in both subjects and people. She has more choices of subjects to choose from, and she is meeting so many different people. In fact, just last week she said "You wouldn't believe how many people speak different languages there!" She has a friend who came from the Ukraine and speaks 5 languages, and has travelled immensely around the world. There are Mexicans, Europeans, Aboriginals, African-Canadians, etc. She's loving the fact that she's making friends with so many kids from different cultures. There are drugs in ALL schools.

If you had different finances, would you make a different decision?

It wouldnt make a difference! There is a post-secondary French Catholic Separate school where most of the students have parents who are doctors, judges, lawyers, etc. A lot of the kids are very snobby. If your purse isnt of high quality like theirs are, you dont fit in! There is a lot of discrimination going on there as far as "parents job status". A few of my "teacher friends" who attended that school wouldnt even send their kids there!

Do you think private school is a better education, or just a better environment?

IMO, it all depends on THE teacher. Some are better at teaching than others. Some make such an "impact" in a students life, which makes them "unforgettable". It doesnt matter if they teach in a public school or private school! Some just dont know how to teach.

My cousin (who is a teacher and an ex-vice principal) sent her daughter to a private school for 2 years when she was little. It ended up "damaging" her emotionally. There was too much discrimination against the rich and not-so-rich kids, the snobbyness (spelling?), etc.

Have you ever been the minority? Is your child a minority?

No Ive never been a minority and neither has my child.

What do you think about sticking with your own class/race?

I dont think its "healthy". I think its discriminating and racist! Like I said, my daughter loves meeting kids with different cultures and from different races. Its like she feels that she doesnt have to travel abroad to be introduced to these cultures.

Like Ive always said its funny how some white people will discriminate against "brown" people but will pay money to go for tanning sessions or sit out in the sun to get "brown skin"!! LOL

How far do you drive your children, or how far do they walk to school?

Daughter takes the bus at our driveway. Actually, the bus turns around in our yard in the mornings.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Do you send your children to public or private? Why?
Dh, my kids and I all went to public school.
We moved when our oldest was beginning school, specifically so that she would be in the school system we are in.

If you had different finances, would you make a different decision?
No. If we'd stayed in our first house, we would have been able to afford private school. Now our house payment is double what it was, but we don't have the expense of private school.

Do you think private school is a better education, or just a better environment?
I feel that our public schools offer as good an education as the private schools around here, and have a wider choice of subjects. They are larger, though, and I know of one parent who sent her son to private school for a couple of years, because he stuggled in public school where he had to change classrooms and teachers throughout the day. He did better with a single teacher, in a single classroom. So for him it was a better environment.

Have you ever been the minority? Is your child a minority? What do you think about sticking with your own class/race?
No, there is not much racial diversity in our area. I am glad that our town has had an influx of Indian and Mexican immigrants recently, but African Americans have avoided our town because of its racist past. Wish that would change - I would rather have my kids attend a more racially diverse school. But from what others have posted about being in a very small minority, I guess it is not surprising that non-white people aren't flocking to move here.

How far do you drive your children, or how far do they walk to school? If you don't go to the school in your district, why not?
My elementary kids walk or bike 1/3 mile to school, and the middle schoolers ride the bus (2.5 miles).


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

What do you think about sticking with your own class/race?

Freeztag:
"I dont think its "healthy". I think its discriminating and racist! Like I said, my daughter loves meeting kids with different cultures and from different races. Its like she feels that she doesnt have to travel abroad to be introduced to these cultures."


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RE: Education: Public VS Private x 2

What do you think about sticking with your own class/race?

Mommybunny:
"If everyone minds their own business then it probably doesn't matter. However, there can be problems when you mix classes and/or races. A lot of times they don't relate well to each other and there is no common ground. A lot of people are prejudice against certain groups and that is just a part of life."


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RE: This is why...

FreezeTag and Mommybunny have two totally different opinions on race/class. I find it interesting to challenge people's perceptions on prejudices. Having grown up as a minority because I spoke proper English, had parents who went to college and have white skin in a state where these are not the norm I feel I am able to comprehend the social stigma associated with race and class more than many of my same genetic background.

Funny thing. After being discriminated against by Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Filipino, Samoan, Hawaiian, Portuguese, et al. as a child, I grew up. Did I get tortured because of my skin color? Yes. But, had I had glasses or been chubby or super smart or really dumb or had a facial tic or had any other obvious issues would I have been treated any better? Are skin color and class the two issues that if we remove them from the equation will make our children sail through school? Or maybe putting them with their "own kind" will pad the journey?

Kids are mean. As an adult I get along with people of those ethnic backgrounds that teased me as a child. I can relate to them now, given my experience. I know their foods, I know their sayings, in essence, I have that culture in me too. And I am better for it.

I simply cannot tolorate prejudice as an adult. People hear "little Mexico" and think of gangs and violence. What if I say "little Italy"? Or "little Sweden"? Do you think of meatballs and windmills?

I cherish my daughter going to school with those of a different ethnic background. Would I want it to be more diverse? Sure. But we live in So. Cal. and the majority is Spanish.

One small thing... When I was going to college in Washington State, one of my roommates said she just couldn't stand the Russians. I couldn't figure out who she was talking about. They all looked white to me! Then after being there for a while, I realized how she could see the difference. They wear scarves on their head and long skirts. The older women have scarves. Um... yeah. I really couldn't see what the problem was. Amazingly enough I actually struck up a few conversations and found the ones I spoke with to be lovely people. At work, everyone hated this one woman and her son. After a year of talking with her a few minutes a day she came in and thanked me. No one else had been kind to her. She recycled with him to make money for his college. My co-workers just assumed they were "Euro-trash". It still pains me to this day.

When in Rome...


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

I'm curious... did you go to public school or private?
-- Public schools, 7 different ones in the same state. The demographics varied.

Do you send your children to public or private? Why?
-- Public. I believe in public schools. I know there are problems, but my philosophy is that if you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem. If all the involved, concerned parents fled to private schools the public school system would be a wreck. It is in the best interest of the nation to make public school education the highest quality. We should be concerned with how *all* kids are educated, not just our own. Ultimately, they will all become the future of our nation, it is better if they are all well educated. Because I believe that, I send my kids to public schools. Even as I say that, though, DH and I have so far been fortunate enough to have some choices about where we live, and can compare the quality of the public schools in the area to make that choice. The schools where we live do offer a quality education, with variety of courses and quality teachers. There is enough parental involvement to support the children and teachers, and provide the school with resources it would not be able to afford based on regular funding. At the same time, there is diversity in the demographics. Most kids here are middle class, there are very few wealthy students in our zone (that would be the next one over), and my kids always have kids who speak other languages in the class. So I am not risking anything by choosing public school here.

If you had different finances, would you make a different decision?
-- Well, if I were very poor I would not have many other options. If my kids attended a "Failing School" and were offered the chance to attend a different school, I would consider it. But my preference would still be a better quality public school. If I were very wealthy, I would continue to send my kids to the public school for which they are zoned.

Do you think private school is a better education, or just a better environment?
-- That is subjective. In general, my perception is that a private school would not have enough diversity in student or teacher population to reflect the "real" world. I would not be satisfied with a homogenous environment regardless of the academics. To me, my children's "education" is much broader than academics. I do *not* want my kids to attend a school where everyone has the same religion and culture. I prefer diversity, and would like more than we have now, definitely not less.

Have you ever been the minority? Is your child a minority? --At one public school which I attended for 6th grade I was in the minority race. I am white. The school district practiced bussing for greater racial balance. I was bussed to a school that was predominantly black. It was a terrible experience. There was hostility and resentment. I was bullied. I have no doubt it was the same for black students bussed to other schools where they were the minority. In general, the community did not like the practice and the resentment of it was taken out on the kids caught in the middle.
-- My children are not the minority. The school they attend is 70% white, 12% black, 12% hispanic; with 27% on free/reduced lunch. That is more white and less poor than the state average, but less white and more poor than the school district overall. For example, the next school zone up the road is 92% white with just 4% free/reduced lunch. (I don't just have those stats in my head, I looked it up, gotta love the internet!)

What do you think about sticking with your own class/race?
-- I think that is an archaic idea. The issue of race and nationality is a tricky one, I will say that. I hope that it becomes less so with each generation. In the meantime, I think we need to steadily work towards mutual respect. Tensions cannot be legislated away, it must be a grass roots change happening one person at a time and spreading. While I do believe new immigrant to America need to learn English ASAP (and teach it to their children, that is in the best interest of the individuals), I think it is a positive thing to continue to celebrate the various cultures that make up our colorful country. As I said, I do not want to raise my children in a circle where everyone has the same beliefs and culture.

How far do you drive your children, or how far do they walk to school? If you don't go to the school in your district, why not?
-- My kids ride the bus (or take the MomBus if we miss it) about 2.5 miles to the school we are zoned to attend. This is a suburban area.


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There Is A Reason

FreezeTag and Mommybunny have two totally different opinions on race/class. I find it interesting to challenge people's perceptions on prejudices. Having grown up as a minority because I spoke proper English, had parents who went to college and have white skin in a state where these are not the norm I feel I am able to comprehend the social stigma associated with race and class more than many of my same genetic background.

There is a reason why there are different countries, cultures and languages. People are different and that is the way it is supposed to be. I don't consider that prejudice but just reality. Trying to make everyone the same and/or accept everyone else is not realistic and just looking for trouble.

As for class. That is mostly based on income levels. A person who is a white collar professional living in a gated community is obviously not going to think and live the same way that someone in a public housing project is. Again, that is not being prejudice but just stating reality. People with lots of money don't see life the same way as people living from pay check to pay check.

Where there is no common ground I still think it is better to mind your own business, be civil and stay on your own side of the fence.

Old school of thought, maybe. But it works for me.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

I don't think homogonizing the world is the answer. Nor do I think staying on your own side of the fence is the answer. Does anyone remember Princess Diana holding the AIDS babies? No "high class" person had ever done that before. She paved the way for people to treat AIDS patients as people.

If there is no common ground, yes, I agree. Stay away from those you cannot come to terms with. But how do you know if there is common ground or not if you don't get to the same ground and check it out? Here we are mostly women, trying to get fresh water and food and healthcare and education for our children. What more common ground is needed?

I think it would be interesting for everyone to guess the education level and financial level of the people on this board. I think there would be some surprises.

I don't see life as a social climb, that's why it struck me as so odd that there was questions about how I could "change" my class and not think anything odd about it. I didn't change my class. I don't think a person can change their class. You either have it or you don't. I am still the same person I was before. Had I moved to one of my families homes on the beach on Tahiti with my daughter instead of S. Cal. would I be considered "trading down"? The socio-economic structure and struggle is very similar to what the Mexicans are going through. It's just perceived as being higher class.

And I don't see what's wrong with accepting everyone. We are all God's children. If there is a "reason why there are different countries, cultures and languages" why can't there be acceptance of all of those differences?

If I say: "Old people are different, we have no common ground, I should stick to my own kind". That just sounds ridiculous. But age/youth are classes in the same way as man/woman, black/white, rich/poor. People living in Arkansas have different views than those in Oregon. Coming from the rainforest, I have different views on water than those from Arizona. If you look at enough parts of a person, you will see each is a class unto themselves.

I totally disagree class is primarily based on income levels. I have some (self-proclaimed) redneck relatives as well as some tofu loving green relatives who are very wealthy. They may be of the same economic class but their values and therefore social classes are very different. The rednecks hang out with other rodeo-type people (not the highest on the social-economic scale) and the tofu lovers hang out at the co-op (also not populated by high economics!).

People have different values. People don't see things the same way. I agree with that. What I don't agree with is deciding that people of a certain economic background will have nothing in common with me based on income/skin color. I think that's a narrow way of perceiving the world.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

silversword:

I think you misunderstood what I meant by my comments. But then again, maybe we just don't agree on this issue of class and race.

The reference to AID's patients is not the same as your everyday life at school and in your neighborhood. Doing humanitarian work or any form of charity is a totally different topic. At the present time, I happen to sponsor more than one third world child through Christian organizations but I don't live in an impoverished neighborhood.

As for common ground. I am referring to people of different ethnic origins that don't see life the same way due to cultural differences. The same goes with class based on income. People with lots of money usually don't think and live like the regular Joe on the street. How would they see the world the same way when they lead a sheltered existence. Most of them don't even do their own housework and yard work. A lot of them use nannies to raise their kids. People with less money do their own work and usually raise their own kids or if working put them in daycare centers. Big difference.

Why would you want to guess someone's education and financial level? What surprises? People are entitled to think what they want and it is not necessarily based on their education or income level. I don't think it really matters but I do have post secondary education and was going to be an accountant but due to ill health it didn't work out. It was for the best anyways since I got re-married and chose to stay home and raise my children which was more important to me anyways. As for income level my husband is the breadwinner so I would base it on his income and not mine from my small business. I would say middle class.

There's nothing wrong with accepting everyone but, how many people really do this in reality? I don't think it is realistic. Not everyone likes everyone. That's just life. Sometimes it might be based on race and class and other times it might be more personal reasons such as value systems, morals and/or personality traits. I think you are more of an idealist. I tend to be more of a realist. I used to be more of an idealist when I was younger but time and experience has taught me that things are often not what they should be.

As for God. Yes, there is a reason for the confusion of languages. The story of the Tower Of Babel in the Old Testament explains the origin of all of this. And sometimes you cannot accept other people's differences. It depends on what it is. You know the saying oil and water don't mix. Being unequally yoked.

I understand what you are saying about old people but I never did imply that and that comment is not based on ethnic background or class. Totally different category altogether. Some people don't like to be around old people but everyone is eventually going to get old so I don't see the point.

Sorry but from what I can see class is primarily based on income levels. And income levels determine what kind of neighborhood you can afford to live in.

Regarding the economic background of individuals and who they associate with or don't associate with is not under my control. I was talking about the general population and how things are. There is always an exception to the rule of course.

I don't think it is a narrow view but you can if that is what you think. People can associate with whomever they please. It is of no consequence to me. I'm only relating what I have seen and what I know personally. And I don't see what is wrong with staying on your side of the fence. I'm not the busy body neighborhood gossip type and am more of a private individual. I happen to like it that way. Each to it's own I suppose.

Here is a link that might be useful: Determinants Of Class


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

"I think it would be interesting for everyone to guess the education level and financial level of the people on this board. I think there would be some surprises."

I would love to know how we would be suprised??

So I will start. We are middle class. Both my dh and I are college educated (bachelors degrees). My husband was not born in the US but when he came here things were different. He was not catered to. He was stuck in a classroom where english was the ONLY language spoken and he was forced to learn it.

Suprised??


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

mommybunny, are you condoning segregation? I disagree that sticking with your own class, race, whatever is a more realistic view. Especially in America. Reality is that we're all in this together. We NEED to learn to find the common ground and some common causes.

I also disagree that class/race/background must be similar to have that common ground, to build relationships. Honestly, I've known some people who match my demographics exactly. White, middle class, college educated, married, kids, even the same minivan... the whole shebang. But once I got to know them, I wondered what planet they were from cuz we do NOT think alike.

On the other hand, I am pleasantly surprised to meet new people from whom I can learn about other cultures. Ultimately, we all want the same thing: a better world for our children. What more common ground do we need?


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Well, Here We Go Again!

mommybunny, are you condoning segregation?

Here is yet another board poster twisting my words just to suit their purpose. Listen, I never said I agreed with segregation. I never said that people of other races or classes didn't have equal rights.

This is what I'm saying. Sometimes due to cultural differences, religious differences, and economic differences people will not see eye to eye and get along. Sometimes people will not get along for other reasons also not having to do with any of the above mentioned conditions. That is reality, like it or not. Just look around you and open your eyes.

If you get along with all different kinds of people then obviously this doesn't apply to you. But, again I am entitled to have my opinion and don't appreciate people misconstruing what I say.

So again, NO I'm not condoning segregation. Everyone has equal rights even if they don't get along.

Other than that regarding mom2emall and the comment:

"I think it would be interesting for everyone to guess the education level and financial level of the people on this board. I think there would be some surprises."

I would love to know how we would be suprised??

I'd have to say in all honesty that the original question of finding it interesting about education and financial levels and being surprised is quite ignorant and seems to reflect the mentality of this board which is not coming across as too positive right now.

It seems to me that some people have a real hard time accepting other people's viewpoints. It's a free country and people can think what they want. You board members also need to keep in mind that people's views are often colored by their own experiences so obviously not everyone is going to see things the same way.

I would suggest this. Get over it and get a life.

Respectfully yours,

mommybunny

P.S. mom2emall: try not to let other people's ignorance upset you too much. It's simply not worth the time of day.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Here's one:

My niece and her spouse are carpenter and nurse. Two kids. Have a nanny and house cleaner once a week.

My cousin is a judge and her husband a teacher. Three kids. Never had a nanny, no house cleaner. They ALL clean her huge house, and when she has dinner guests, it's her kids (teenagers) who help cater/serve the guests. Her eldest is going to medical school, and her middle child dropped out of school and is into trouble with the law (was under house arrest). My cousin's sister works for the government and married a corporate lawyer, has two kids, a live-in nanny, and a house cleaner. By the time she gets home, the kids are fed, homework done, and in pyjamas. Their two brothers work blue collar jobs and live paycheck to paycheck like a lot of people.

The judge is down-to-earth. The government worker is very snobby and is obvious about it. The two brothers are also down-to-earth. Their parents (my aunt and uncle) are very, very snobby, and they are not upper class. They are middle class. It's just their attitudes.

IMO, it all depends on the individuals. Everybody deserves a chance to get known. I've seen a few people I know go from upper class (millionaire) to almost bankrupt, to losing their house and living on credit cards, paying one off with the other. They're still the same person they were when they had lots of money. They were just too greedy and wanted too much too fast.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

*I'm curious... did you go to public school or private?
I attended public schools from start to finish.

*Do you send your children to public or private? Why?
Neither. We are homeschoolers, for both spiritual and academic reasons.

*If you had different finances, would you make a different decision?
No - we'd just have a more comfortable lifestyle. :-)

*Do you think private school is a better education, or just a better environment?
That depends on the school itself. I taught in a private school which was excellent, two others which were not. Any school environment depends on the quality of its leadership.

*Have you ever been the minority? Is your child a minority?
Yes. Was always a nerd in school, picked on constantly. Now that we are homeschoolers, we are definitely in a minority.

*What do you think about sticking with your own class/race?
I see no point in it. I enjoy meeting and socializing with all people. I particularly enjoy getting to know people who are from other countries and cultures. It has always been important to me that my children do the same.

*How far do you drive your children, or how far do they walk to school?
Thank God, this is not an issue for us, LOL.

*If you don't go to the school in your district, why not?
Answered this above


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Mom2emall:

You responded to my comment below:
""I think it would be interesting for everyone to guess the education level and financial level of the people on this board. I think there would be some surprises."

And this is what you said:
"I would love to know how we would be suprised??

The reason we would be surprised is because I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that the majority of the people on this post have been educated past high school and are middle to upper middle class.

My reasoning? Financially because we all have computers and leisure time enough to post to this board. Education-wise because we are taking the time to discuss a wide variety of subjects on such a forum. Not that I am suggesting that people who have not gone to college would not post to these boards, I'm just going from my impression of the dynamics on this board.

I'm not surprised that you have a higher education.

What I was saying was that I think we are all pretty similar in our social "class".

And yet, we on this board are not the same, do not think the same about the same things, do not react the same, do not make the same choices, and do not agree on many things.

My point is sticking with one's own demographics does not ensure compatibility.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Mom2emall:

From the Neighbor Kid post: "As for the type of lifestyle you chose, I do find it a little odd that you would go from upper class to lower class and see no issues with it. I would not want my child going to a poor (and I do not mean that in the sense of money) neighborhood school.

Your assumption was that because I stated it is a school in a town that is called "Little Mexico" and the ESL rate is high that it is a poor school.

You made the assumption that my daughter's $8000/year preschool with majority of white children is a better education based on no more than those two facts.

I found that comment to be elitist and ignorant. I made the best decision I could.

The reason I brought it up in the first place was to say that I don't have a problem with my daughter playing with children who have different "status" than she does. I don't think kids see things that way and I want to keep it like that for as long as possible. I want my daughter to meet handicapped children, those with more and those with less, so she sees there is a wide variety of people in the world.


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RE: Acceptance

Mommybunny:

I am an idealist, much as those who started our country were.

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

Years ago this was for those coming in from Ireland, Scotland, Italy Now theyve mostly assimilated and we cant tell the difference. They have had a few generations to learn the language, send their children to the public schools, and their grandchildren are equal with other Americans in terms of education level and social status. Now the immigrants are South American, Mexican, Middle Eastern. Should we treat them as our ancestors were treated, as second class citizens, as those with whom we shouldnt mix because their status is different than ours? Or should we help them with learning our language, with learning our customs, while helping them preserve their culture?

"There's nothing wrong with accepting everyone but, how many people really do this in reality? I don't think it is realistic."

The thing is, we can change reality. It's a lot harder to change people's ideals.

You help by "sponsor(ing) more than one third world child through Christian organizations" but don't live in an impoverished neighborhood.

I do not sponsor any third world children. I choose to do my charity work in my own country. I too, do not live in an impoverished neighborhood.

"When you break down key economic development indicators by income group and race, you find that conditions for poor Americans rival those in developing countries...Today there are two Americas: the First World one, with its Starbucks and SUVs, and the Third World one, which is generally out of sight and out of mind...But closing your eyes never makes a problem go away." (Published on Wednesday, September 7, 2005 by the Los Angeles Times)

I chose to give up my SUV and mcmansion. I still have the same ideals, morals and a comfortable lifestyle. Just because something's expensive does not mean it's good or high-quality.

My comment on people being surprised was that I think we all have more in common than we think as far as education and finances are concerned, and since we have such differing opinions on so many things, those two markers of "class" are not valid indicators of which side of the fence we should be standing.

I am an accountant. I too consider my financial status to be middle class. I personally think this coincidence is very funny.

"As for common ground. I am referring to people of different ethnic origins that don't see life the same way due to cultural differences. The same goes with class based on income."

And Im saying, just because your culture is different and your income is different does not mean you dont have common ground, it should be more of an incentive to seek common ground. We are all Americans.


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Pots And Kettles?

Okay silversword:

You still didn't answer me regarding the mexican dog reference on the other post. If you are going to try to publicly humiliate me then I deserve an answer. What gives you the right to insult me like that? Because I don't agree with you? Very cowardly act I would think.

Now you are attacking mom2emall by stating I found that comment to be elitist and ignorant.

Why don't you just give it a break. Not everyone has to agree with you and see life the way you do. To be honest when I hear Little Mexico I get the same images of a poorer district with gang related problems. Sorry but that is reality. Oh and before you start accusing and assuming, I'm not elitist and ignorant but I'm sure you don't see it the same way.

Is it not ignorant to ask people's opinions on a subject and then trash them because they don't agree with you and fit into your idealist mold? Maybe you should look at yourself before you start pointing fingers.

I for one don't like being singled out and called a mexican dog by you or anyone else. I think that is considered ignorant and immature.

Have a nice day,

mommybunny

P.S. I find it kind of humorous that each person that falsely accused me of something doesn't have the decency to admit they were mistaken.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Silversword regarding your post:

You Said: I am an idealist, much as those who started our country were.

I kind of thought you were. I'm more of a realist. So right there we have no common ground. I like to deal with things the way they are and if realistic make improvements. You like to deal with the way you think things should be and try to manipulate reality.

You Said: The thing is, we can change reality. It's a lot harder to change people's ideals.

Good luck with that one. Believe it or not there are many things that are not under your control. The idea that you have the power to change reality is an illusion and sounds like a New Age concept to me.

You Said: My comment on people being surprised was that I think we all have more in common than we think as far as education and finances are concerned, and since we have such differing opinions on so many things, those two markers of "class" are not valid indicators of which side of the fence we should be standing.

I still hold to my statement that class is based on income level. I don't feel that I have much in common with you at all. Even if I don't agree with someone I don't go around calling them mexican dogs. I am strong in my opinions but I also try to remember that not everyone does or has to agree with me or my concepts. They also don't need to call me narrow minded, put me down for having a strong personality or make mexican dog references towards me. And also, like I said before if there are differences regarding culture, religion and/or economics it is sometimes better to mind your own business and leave other people alone. Not everyone gets along with everyone else. Whether you like it or can accept it or not doesn't change the reality of it.

You Said: I am an accountant. I too consider my financial status to be middle class. I personally think this coincidence is very funny.

Now I'm surprised. Usually the accountant type is more of an analytical and logical thinker. How logical is it to refer to people you don't like as mexican dogs? Sorry but I don't share your sense of humour on this one.

You Said: And Im saying, just because your culture is different and your income is different does not mean you dont have common ground, it should be more of an incentive to seek common ground. We are all Americans.

If you have common ground irregardless of your ethnic background, income or which side of the bed you sleep on then that is fine. All I'm saying is if you don't then people should mind their own business and leave other people alone. What's the point in forcing the issue? I'm not an American.


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RE: 'Mexican Dogs' again...

Mommybunny,
I didn't call you a Mexican Dog. I didn't read that post when I posted this, so how could I have commented on it?

I don't think I was attacking anyone, and I sure didn't mean to. If Mom2emall is offended, I would like for her to be the one to say something and we can discuss it rather than going through you.

I wrote: "I think we all have more in common than we think as far as education and finances are concerned"

You wrote: "I still hold to my statement that class is based on income level. I don't feel that I have much in common with you at all."

We have had similar opinions on many posts before, but I agree, we don't have much in common EXCEPT FOR EDUCATION AND FINANCES. (And I'm assuming you're white too)

There's my point. You can be in the same "class" as someone and have very little in common with them. Therefore, sticking to one's own class/race does not ensure people will get along any better than those of mixed classes/races.


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RE: Logic

Mommybunny:
"Why would you want to guess someone's education and financial level? What surprises? People are entitled to think what they want and it is not necessarily based on their education or income level. I don't think it really matters but I do have post secondary education and was going to be an accountant but due to ill health it didn't work out.

Mommybunny:
You quoted me: "I am an accountant. I too consider my financial status to be middle class. I personally think this coincidence is very funny."

You wrote:
"Now I'm surprised. Usually the accountant type is more of an analytical and logical thinker. How logical is it to refer to people you don't like as mexican dogs?"

I'm sorry, but I still think it's funny. You're surprised because I don't fit what you presumed about me, just as I predicted. That's kind of logical, don't you think?

As for logic, wouldn't it be more logical to ask someone what they meant instead of jumping all over making accusations and getting your feelings hurt for no reason?

I'M SORRY. I TRULY AM. I NEVER MEANT TO CALL YOU A DOG, MUCH LESS A MEXICAN ONE.

Please go back to that post, re-read the process that brought us here, and see what logically happened.

I posted something, that I erronously thought was funny and had nothing to do with you.

You took offense and started going off everywhere you could, even on non-related posts, rather than ask me to explain myself.

How much time and agony could you have saved yourself had you given me the benefit of the doubt and an opportunity to explain myself? When you responded to that, I didn't understand what you were talking about since you weren't a part of the Bobosfriend, Bloobird, NoName1 conversation at all. I thought you were as confused as I was!

I'm really really sorry that you thought I was talking about you. Truly, I wasn't. It wasn't directed at anyone. I just meant people were getting snappy. It was innappropriate. Please accept my apology.


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RE: Rationals

All Rationals share the following core characteristics:
Rationals tend to be pragmatic, skeptical, self-contained, and focused on problem-solving and systems analysis.
Rationals pride themselves on being ingenious, independent, and strong willed.
Rationals make reasonable mates, individualizing parents, and strategic leaders.
Rationals are even-tempered, they trust logic, yearn for achievement, seek knowledge, prize technology, and dream of understanding how the world works.
Rationals are the problem solving temperament, particularly if the problem has to do with the many complex systems that make up the world around us. Rationals might tackle problems in organic systems such as plants and animals, or in mechanical systems such as railroads and computers, or in social systems such as families and companies and governments. But whatever systems fire their curiosity, Rationals will analyze them to understand how they work, so they can figure out how to make them work better.
In working with problems, Rationals try to find solutions that have application in the real world, but they are even more interested in the abstract concepts involved, the fundamental principles or natural laws that underlie the particular case. And they are completely pragmatic about their ways and means of achieving their ends. Rationals don't care about being politically correct. They are interested in the most efficient solutions possible, and will listen to anyone who has something useful to teach them, while disregarding any authority or customary procedure that wastes time and resources.
Rationals have an insatiable hunger to accomplish their goals and will work tirelessly on any project they have set their mind to. They are rigorously logical and fiercely independent in their thinking -- are indeed skeptical of all ideas, even their own -- and they believe they can overcome any obstacle with their will power. Often they are seen as cold and distant, but this is really the absorbed concentration they give to whatever problem they're working on. Whether designing a skyscraper or an experiment, developing a theory or a prototype technology, building an aircraft, a corporation, or a strategic alliance, Rationals value intelligence, in themselves and others, and they pride themselves on the ingenuity they bring to their problem solving.
Rationals are very scarce, comprising as little as 5 to 10 percent of the population. But because of their drive to unlock the secrets of nature, and to develop new technologies, they have done much to shape our world.
Albert Einstein, Marie Curie, Bill Gates, Margaret Thatcher, Walt Disney, Camille Paglia, Ayn Rand, Thomas Jefferson, Richard Feynman, and General Ulysses S. Grant and President Dwight D. Eisenhower are examples of Rationals.


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RE: Idealists

All Idealists share the following core characteristics:
Idealists are enthusiastic, they trust their intuition, yearn for romance, seek their true self, prize meaningful relationships, and dream of attaining wisdom.
Idealists pride themselves on being loving, kindhearted, and authentic.
Idealists tend to be giving, trusting, spiritual, and they are focused on personal journeys and human potentials.
Idealists make intense mates, nurturing parents, and inspirational leaders.
Idealists, as a temperament, are passionately concerned with personal growth and development. Idealists strive to discover who they are and how they can become their best possible self -- always this quest for self-knowledge and self-improvement drives their imagination. And they want to help others make the journey. Idealists are naturally drawn to working with people, and whether in education or counseling, in social services or personnel work, in journalism or the ministry, they are gifted at helping others find their way in life, often inspiring them to grow as individuals and to fulfill their potentials.
Idealists are sure that friendly cooperation is the best way for people to achieve their goals. Conflict and confrontation upset them because they seem to put up angry barriers between people. Idealists dream of creating harmonious, even caring personal relations, and they have a unique talent for helping people get along with each other and work together for the good of all. Such interpersonal harmony might be a romantic ideal, but then Idealists are incurable romantics who prefer to focus on what might be, rather than what is. The real, practical world is only a starting place for Idealists; they believe that life is filled with possibilities waiting to be realized, rich with meanings calling out to be understood. This idea of a mystical or spiritual dimension to life, the "not visible" or the "not yet" that can only be known through intuition or by a leap of faith, is far more important to Idealists than the world of material things.
Highly ethical in their actions, Idealists hold themselves to a strict standard of personal integrity. They must be true to themselves and to others, and they can be quite hard on themselves when they are dishonest, or when they are false or insincere. More often, however, Idealists are the very soul of kindness. Particularly in their personal relationships, Idealists are without question filled with love and good will. They believe in giving of themselves to help others; they cherish a few warm, sensitive friendships; they strive for a special rapport with their children; and in marriage they wish to find a "soulmate," someone with whom they can bond emotionally and spiritually, sharing their deepest feelings and their complex inner worlds.
Idealists are relatively rare, making up no more than 15 to 20 percent of the population. But their ability to inspire people with their enthusiasm and their idealism has given them influence far beyond their numbers.
Princess Diana, Joan Baez, Albert Schweitzer, Bill Moyers, Eleanor Roosevelt, Mohandas Gandhi, Mikhael Gorbachev, and Oprah Winfrey are examples of Idealists.


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RE: Reality

Mommybunny:
"I'd have to say in all honesty that the original question of finding it interesting about education and financial levels and being surprised is quite ignorant"

So, your surprise makes you ignorant? I'm not an accountant "type" or any other "type". I'm a person who went to school, discovered an aptitude and made it her profession.

"The idea that you have the power to change reality is an illusion and sounds like a New Age concept to me."

Yes, we can change reality, since reality is subjective and based on experience. One person's reality may have nothing in common with another. One of the fundamental issues in ethics is called the is-ought problem, and it can be formulated as follows: "Given our knowledge of the way the world 'is,' how can we know the way the world 'ought to be'?" Most ethical views hold that the world we live in (the real world) is not ideal and, as such, there is room for improvement.

Four examples of "reality" that has altered due to changes in thinking and a lot of hard work by concerned individuals who believed it was possible.

Reality: Women can't vote. Changed.
Reality: Black people can't go to the same schools, sit in the same seats, vote or own property. Changed.
Reality: Gays cannot marry. Changed (in some states)
Reality: A black man and a woman don't have a shot at the presidency. Changed.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Silversword:

You Said: If Mom2emall is offended, I would like for her to be the one to say something and we can discuss it rather than going through you.

I didn't say you had to go through me. I see nothing wrong with sticking up for someone I feel you are picking on.

You Said: We have had similar opinions on many posts before, but I agree, we don't have much in common EXCEPT FOR EDUCATION AND FINANCES. (And I'm assuming you're white too)

Yes, I'm white. Was that a racist comment? We don't have much in common? No kidding! I never noticed.


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What Logic?

Silversword:

You Said: I'm sorry, but I still think it's funny. You're surprised because I don't fit what you presumed about me, just as I predicted. That's kind of logical, don't you think?

You can think it's funny if you want to. I don't happen to see it the same way. I could care less about your predictions and I don't think it is even close to being logical.

You Said: As for logic, wouldn't it be more logical to ask someone what they meant instead of jumping all over making accusations and getting your feelings hurt for no reason?

I did ask you more than once. I was waiting for a response.

You Said: I'M SORRY. I TRULY AM. I NEVER MEANT TO CALL YOU A DOG, MUCH LESS A MEXICAN ONE.

Do sincere apologies include yelling?

You Said: How much time and agony could you have saved yourself had you given me the benefit of the doubt and an opportunity to explain myself? When you responded to that, I didn't understand what you were talking about since you weren't a part of the Bobosfriend, Bloobird, NoName1 conversation at all. I thought you were as confused as I was!

I'm not confused at all. I know perfectly well what is going on and I already heard your explanation.

You Said: I'm really really sorry that you thought I was talking about you. Truly, I wasn't. It wasn't directed at anyone. I just meant people were getting snappy. It was innappropriate. Please accept my apology.

I accept your apology. But why continue accusing on another thread? This whole thing is really stupid.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Actually, mommybunny, I was trying to avoid misconstruing your words. I asked (see the question mark?) if you condoned segregation because I wasn't sure how literally to take some of your comments like the following, which I quote from your posts:

MB said: However, there can be problems when you mix classes and/or races.

MB said: I don't see what is wrong with staying on your side of the fence

Those kinds of comments hinted at some level of social segregation to me. If you say that's not what you mean, OK, then. That's why I asked, to clarify. It's too bad this discussion has made you feel so defensive.

I was thinking the same thing as silversword regarding social realities that have changed over the years because of idealists with a purpose. I'd take it as a compliment to be called an idealist. You say it like it's a bad thing.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Oh my goodness Mommybunny.

1.) I'm white. That's another thing we have in common. That's all I was saying. By your definition of class we are in the same class.

2.) I'm not accusing you of anything. You say I am, but it is you who is accusing me; of calling you names, of being mean to others.

3.) I've apologized several times. I really really am sorry you misunderstood. I didn't go back to that post for a while nor did understand when I did that you thought I made a nasty comment directed towards you until you had made several comments to other people on a completely different post and hijacked it (which I feel was inappropriate and mean).

4.) I wasn't yelling, I was making sure it was seen.

5.) That's great that you know what's going on. It's apparent I'm the only one who is bewildered by this situation.

5.) You say we should stick to our side of the fence, you say people being surprised over the financial/educational achievements of those on this board is ignorant and me saying that people would be surprised is ignorant. Yet, when I am on "your side" of the fence financially and educationally and racially you are surprised, and it's obvious you don't want me there and don't see how a person like me could hold the job position I do. That's why sticking to your own kind doesn't work. It doesn't work to judge character based on class.

6.) I didn't realize you were not an American. That was an ignorant comment, and I'm sorry. I can't expect you to understand what California is like or what America is striving for in terms of "liberty and justice for all" or what we have achieved in terms of changing our reality. I don't know what your country or your countrymen/women's collective goals are, so I can't put it into different terms. I apologize for my assumption.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Oh goodness....

This whole thing started with silversword telling us about how she paid $8000 a year for preschool (ridiculous!) and had an suv, and bla bla bla well off silversword. Then she traded it all in to move to "little mexico" and send her daughter to a school where open house was conducted in spanish and then translated to english (and somehow that is a good thing for her daughter?). Then she tells us about her trashy, drunk neighbors and how she is not sure if her dd should play with their son and how her dh was mad about dd playing with son of trashy neighbors.

I agreed that maybe it was not a good idea for her dd to play with a child whose parents were so wacked...could lead to problems! I also mentioned how odd I found it that she changed lifestyles so dramatically and thought it would be a smooth transition.

So then it turns into some racial thing about schools and classes. She is the one who called her town "little mexico". Guess by her that is a compliment...in my part of the country it is not a positive statement.

I never said that I do not like my children to be friends with kids of other cultures. I just said that I do not wish for my kids to go to a school where they are the minority. Kids are cruel at times. I explained that I was the minority in high school and it was not a positive experience. At that age I think races can mix as long as they are pretty equally distributed. But when you have a school that is mostly one race and then just a few students of another it may be difficult for those minorities to fit in. Not saying I think it is right, just saying that is what happened to me and I do not wish to subject my children to it.

My children do have friends of other cultures and we are not prejudice. I just do not wish for my kids to be the minority. IT has nothing to do with classes or money.

And as far as schools, I think public can be find depending on where you live. Some schools have a lot less funding and it shows. I taught at a school that did not have enough money for each student to have their own textbooks! But my point was if your public school is catering to ESL students and your child does not need those services your child may not be getting the best possible education for them.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Hello Stephanie:

Just to clarify a few things.

You Said: Actually, mommybunny, I was trying to avoid misconstruing your words. I asked (see the question mark?) if you condoned segregation because I wasn't sure how literally to take some of your comments like the following, which I quote from your posts:

No I don't believe in segregation based on race. I don't agree with not allowing certain races to attend certain schools, eat in certain restaurants, walk on certain streets or drink from certain water fountains.

In reality all races have equal rights even though they are different. Even though all races have equal rights there are also differences in cultures amongst those races that may make it difficult to get along. That is all I'm referring to.

You Said: I was thinking the same thing as silversword regarding social realities that have changed over the years because of idealists with a purpose. I'd take it as a compliment to be called an idealist. You say it like it's a bad thing.

Everyone is not the same. Are we all clones and robots? I am not an idealist I'm a realist so I don't relate to idealists. If someone's ideals lead them to make positive changes that benefit others then that is a good thing. If an idealist is just someone who thinks reality is subjective and just daydreams all day or indulges in wishful thinking but does nothing to make the ideals come true then that is a fruitless pursuit. This is of course my opinion and how I see idealists. You may not agree and that is your right.


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Reality Is Not Subjective, Opinions Are!

Silversword I'm responding to your posts individually. This is getting very tiresome. If you can't or don't agree with me then it would be better to stop conversing altogether. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and whilst I enjoy debates up to a point this is becoming pointless.

You Said: So, your surprise makes you ignorant? I'm not an accountant "type" or any other "type". I'm a person who went to school, discovered an aptitude and made it her profession.

No, not really. First of all I wasn't surprised. Secondly, I don't see myself as being ignorant. I have no idea what type of person you are. But usually Accountants are not idealists but analytical, logical thinkers that are detail oriented and often are perfectionists. But that is my opinion and you have a right to disagree if you choose to do so.

You Said: Yes, we can change reality, since reality is subjective and based on experience. One person's reality may have nothing in common with another.

I would have to strongly disagree on this one. Reality is not subjective. Reality is an absolute that is not affected by your perceptions of it. Reality is what it is and it doesn't change. Your perception of reality may change but the reality itself is constant. People can take illegal drugs and hallucinate and see things and perceive things that are not really there. This also happens with some mental illnesses such as Schizophrenia where people hear things and see things that are not really there. These people's perceptions of reality and the actual reality are two totally separate things. I prefer to be grounded in actual reality and not perceived subjective reality.

You Said: One of the fundamental issues in ethics is called the is-ought problem, and it can be formulated as follows: "Given our knowledge of the way the world 'is,' how can we know the way the world 'ought to be'?" Most ethical views hold that the world we live in (the real world) is not ideal and, as such, there is room for improvement.

But whose ought to be are you going to choose? Everyone doesn't see the world the same way. Of course the real world is not ideal. It never will be since it is inhabited by imperfect human beings. Human beings are fallible and due to this reason alone the world will never be ideal. Of course there is room for improvement. Each person is responsible for doing their part to make the world a better place. But even this is somewhat of an ideal concept since not everyone is able and/or willing to do so.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Silversword:

A continuation of my responses to your posts.

You Said: Oh my goodness Mommybunny.

1.) I'm white. That's another thing we have in common. That's all I was saying. By your definition of class we are in the same class.

Actually if you want to get really picky I might be considered off-white due to Eastern European descent. My husband however is white as snow due to Western European descent. I base class on income level and I don't know nor is it my business what your income level is so I wouldn't necessarily say we are in the same class.

You Said: 2.) I'm not accusing you of anything. You say I am, but it is you who is accusing me; of calling you names, of being mean to others.

That's how you see it. I was referring to the dog comment as being not very nice. I also don't like being accused of being racist when I was not but just stating facts. I will of course take care of that in another post. The dog comment was right after my post so I'm sure you can see how a person could think it was referring to them since you didn't state who that comment was or was not about. As for being mean to others? I would say that it is a possibility that you may have misinterpreted what another person meant such as the laying down with dogs and getting fleas comment. That comment isn't meant to be taken literally but is explaining that if you keep bad company that some bad things might rub off on you. But I believe I already stated this in another post.

You Said: 3.) I've apologized several times. I really really am sorry you misunderstood. I didn't go back to that post for a while nor did understand when I did that you thought I made a nasty comment directed towards you until you had made several comments to other people on a completely different post and hijacked it (which I feel was inappropriate and mean).

I asked you a question and since you didn't answer me I made reference to it on another of your posts. The question was directed to you since you made the original comment. If you are really sorry then that is fine. So why are we still talking about this?

You Said: 4.) I wasn't yelling, I was making sure it was seen.

It is my understanding that typing in all caps constitutes yelling on the internet. If you don't see it that way then that is fine.

You Said: 5.) That's great that you know what's going on. It's apparent I'm the only one who is bewildered by this situation.

The problem as I see it is that there are people on this forum that are estranged from their children and they don't like other people saying that they understand their pain when they haven't been through it personally. I can understand that but there are two sides to every story and I was just giving my perspective of it from the adult child's side. I still believe that everyone's pain is valid and that every situation is unique and should be treated as such.

Some people for whatever reason either cannot or don't want to see other people's points of view and that is fine. It is their choice. But, that doesn't justify telling others that they don't know what they are talking about, making personal insults and playing mind games on the message board. But since the internet is anonymous and not face to face contact I presume that some people might take more liberties then they should.

You Said: 5.) You say we should stick to our side of the fence, you say people being surprised over the financial/educational achievements of those on this board is ignorant and me saying that people would be surprised is ignorant. Yet, when I am on "your side" of the fence financially and educationally and racially you are surprised, and it's obvious you don't want me there and don't see how a person like me could hold the job position I do. That's why sticking to your own kind doesn't work. It doesn't work to judge character based on class.

I don't understand why you keep putting words in my mouth and twist meanings to suit your need for drama and chaos. If people can't get along due to differences in culture or whatever I don't see what is wrong with minding your own business and staying on your side of the fence. Is it better to mind your neighbor's business and continue to put your head up their b**t if you don't get along and see things the same way?

I don't see why people should be surprised? Surprised about what? Financial and education levels don't have any bearing on your personality. I don't think we are on the same side of the fence but you do and that is your opinion.

I never said that there was or is a connection between a person's character and class. All I did say is that due to different income levels people live differently and may not see life the same way. This has nothing to do with character qualities such as being honest, not stealing, etc. I also never said you couldn't hold your current job position. A job doesn't define who you are but at the same time there are certain qualities that go with certain jobs. That is all I was referring to.

You Said: 6.) I didn't realize you were not an American. That was an ignorant comment, and I'm sorry. I can't expect you to understand what California is like or what America is striving for in terms of "liberty and justice for all" or what we have achieved in terms of changing our reality. I don't know what your country or your countrymen/women's collective goals are, so I can't put it into different terms. I apologize for my assumption.

My country is the same country where a lot of your black slaves escaped to in order to be free. It is your country that enslaved the black people in the South. My country, to the best of my knowledge, doesn't have a history of doing such things. It is also your country that had segregation problems well into the 1950's I believe. The KKK is also alive and well in your country along with the Neo-Nazis. I despise such organizations and what they stand for.

The ethnic minorities where I live are obviously not the same as where you are. When I was growing up most if not all people were either of Western or Eastern European descent. When I got older there were some people of Oriental and Middle Eastern descent coming into the country. A lot of the ethnic groups do stick together and live in the same neighborhoods and that is not a racist comment but just reality.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Mom2emall:
"This whole thing started with silversword telling us about how she paid $8000 a year for preschool (ridiculous!) and had an suv, and bla bla bla well off silversword."

I don't think that was very nice. I agree that the school was expensive and ridiculous and I think I have shown that. However, one does make decisions with one's husband and as I mentioned, that is his lifestyle. I lived in a very small town. There were two preschools. Both were Montessori, and both were very expensive. In this town some people think nothing of spending $12,000 for first grade. No, this whole thing started when I wanted an opinion on how to deal with an ethical issue I was having. Once people started insinuating my daughter shouldn't play with him because he was a bad kid and we should stick to our own kind I mentioned that I don't feel that way, and I explained why.

I didn't expect the transition to be smooth, rarely is a transition smooth. I changed cultures completely. Are you saying that you don't have any neighbors who are drunks? Could this have been prevented if I lived in a different neighborhood? It's just silly. And that's what I was saying. My neighbor in Hawaii was a white doctor, and he had issues too. That's a very common problem no matter where one lives and I think has nothing to do with me changing cultures.

Again, the assumption is that the school is "catering to ESL students". I never said that it was at the expense of my child's education. I think the school is dealing with the issue of educating the children in the district very well, despite so many of them needing ESL classes. I only brought it up because I was trying to say that I don't believe in sticking to my own "kind" because I don't think in those terms.

"her daughter to a school where open house was conducted in spanish and then translated to english"

Read it again. I said it was conducted in English, then translated into Spanish. At least it's not in Pidgen English like the teachers speak in Hawaii.

I understand your point about not wanting your child to be a minority because you had a hard time when you were the minority. That makes perfect sense. I was also the minority, and while it was hard I think it served me well in the long run. We have different perspectives, and I don't have a problem with that.

But no one is listening when I say I didn't mean "Little Mexico" in a bad way, nor did I think anyone else would. I think that's a pretty innocent mistake that keeps coming up as me misconstruing the situation. I understand that in your area that's not a good thing to say. There are regional differences.


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RE: Reality and Remembering

Mommybunny, you wrote
Posted by mommybunny (My Page) on Thu, Oct 2, 08 at 12:51
"Now I'm surprised. Usually the accountant type is more of an analytical and logical thinker."

I responded:
"So, your surprise makes you ignorant? I'm not an accountant "type" or any other "type".

You responded:
Posted by mommybunny (My Page) on Fri, Oct 3, 08 at 4:04
"No, not really. First of all I wasn't surprised. Secondly, I don't see myself as being ignorant. I have no idea what type of person you are."

Its you who said my comment of being surprised was ignorant. Then you professed surprise over me not fitting the "type" of person who holds my position. Then you say you dont know what type of person I am. Youre all over the place. I can see why you dont want to debate this and think its pointless. You cant remember your point.

You wrote: "Reality is not subjective. Reality is an absolute that is not affected by your perceptions of it. Reality is what it is and it doesn't change. Your perception of reality may change but the reality itself is constant."

But there are many "realities". Reality means "the state of things as they actually exist." But things exist differently to different people. To some people, reality is that women do not vote, go out alone, or learn to drive. Who am I to deny their reality because I dont think its right to live their life like that? All I can do if I dont agree is attempt to change their perception of reality to become more inclusive of womens rights.

Then you wrote "But whose ought to be are you going to choose? Everyone doesn't see the world the same way."

Thats why reality is "subjective", meaning "Modified or affected by personal views, experience, or background."
Of course, the debate of reality is subjective too. Those who believe its not subjective, and those who believe it is. Rather like religion, it all depends on where you stand on the topic.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Posted by mommybunny (My Page) on
Tue, Sep 30, 08 at 17:53
"As for income level my husband is the breadwinner so I would base it on his income and not mine from my small business. I would say middle class."

Posted by silversword (My Page) on
Thu, Oct 2, 08 at 11:58
"I am an accountant. I too consider my financial status to be middle class."

Posted by mommybunny (My Page) on
Fri, Oct 3, 08 at 4:56
I base class on income level and I don't know nor is it my business what your income level is so I wouldn't necessarily say we are in the same class.

Once again, you are not reading what I have posted. This is my point. You are the one getting defensive when I call you on your illogical statements. If you consider "class" to be primarily financial, as you have stated; I dare to presume that since we both consider ourselves to be middle class we would both be considered the same "class" by your standards. Added to that, we both pursued the same education, both are from the same general ethnic background and are both heterosexual mothers. I think we have a lot of the basics in common. And yet, as you have said, we have nothing in common. Judging from our interaction on other posts where we have agreed, I think we do have some of our belief systems in common. But being the same class does not ensure compatibility. I have more in common with my neighbor, an uneducated Mexican mother of four who recently immigrated to the U.S. Thats why the classist system does not work. Its flawed, and it sets up prejudice and discrimination.

"My country is the same country where a lot of your black slaves escaped to in order to be free. It is your country that enslaved the black people in the South. My country, to the best of my knowledge, doesn't have a history of doing such things. It is also your country that had segregation problems well into the 1950's I believe. The KKK is also alive and well in your country along with the Neo-Nazis. I despise such organizations and what they stand for."

Youre right, on all points. Except that the KKK is alive and well. It's actually diminished by 75% since 1982, through people refusing to accept that kind of behavior as reality dedicated to changing that reality. And I agree with your opinion that such organizations and a portion of our history is despicable. But my understanding is that Europeans also settled Canada, and also put the native peoples on reservations, also made mistakes and had to alter their ways of thinking and doing things. I think it is wonderful that although there were some awful things that have happened in the history of the world, America has done much to change herself for the better. We are not perfect, but I think as a nation we are sure trying to get it right. Perceptions change every day. We are growing, we are changing. Reality is altered.


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What Really Is Your Problem?

Silversword:

What did I tell you on the other post? It seems to me that you just want to keep this going on and on for who knows what reason.

I am not all over the place and I am well aware of my point and no, it is not worth debating with you. And reality is not subjective and I don't care what you think about it.

As for the same class. I already told you I don't know nor care what your income level is. There is lower middle class all the way up to upper middle class. Get my point? If not, then too bad I'm not explaining it any further.

I do not make illogical statements and I could care less if you think that I do.

We don't have any belief systems in common as far as I'm concerned but of course you will probably disagree with this. You say you have more in common with your uneducated Mexican mother of four neighbor? I could care less and why are you telling me this anyways?

I don't know what the h**l your problem is but you seem to enjoy antagonizing me and insulting me.

I'm telling you right now that if I met you in real life I would have nothing to do with you. I'm telling you that I'm getting more than sick and tired of your baiting me on this board. I'm telling you that I'm finished with debating with you or arguing with you or defending myself against you or whatever you want to call it.

I'm telling you to back off and leave me alone. I don't want to converse with you any further. I'm telling you that any further posts from you directed to me will be ignored and not responded to by me.

Have a nice day,


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Mommybunny, on the other post you told me you would not be entertaining my posts any longer. Why are you still responding to me?

I understand your need for the last word, but I do feel I have been misrepresented and would like to state a few more things.

First, I understand your reality is fixed and the concept of a subjective reality is threatening. For that I am sympathetic. It must make life difficult for you, and had I known you felt this strongly about it I would not have engaged you in such conversation.

I don't think I am or have been antagonizing you or insulting you. I'm sorry if you feel that way, and that we have come to this impasse.

If you don't want to converse with me, that's easy enough. Just stop talking. ;)

I too, hope you are having a good day, and that these feelings you are experiencing do not transfer into your everyday life.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Silversword I already told you to back off but I guess you didn't hear me.

The concept of subjective reality is not threatening to me it is just plain stupid. I don't need or want your sympathy. It does not make life difficult for me.

I find you to be insulting and boorish and condescending.

Yes, why don't you stop talking.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Mommybunny, it is you who keeps responding after you say you won't anymore. It's not very logical to keep coming back to toss in your last word after you say you intend to ignore me.

That said, I accept your assessment of me, and respect your right to state your feelings; however, I am not going to stop talking. I think getting these sorts of things out in the air is healthy, and being able to communicate with both those I agree with and those I don't is interesting and insightful.

I think if you are honest you will agree you enjoy conversing with people with whom you disagree. But perhaps I'm wrong in my assessment of your character. I have been wrong before, and I'm sure I will keep making mistakes as I go along.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

This is the third and final time I'm telling you silversword to back off and leave me alone. You tell me that if I don't want to converse with you to stop talking. Yet you say that you are not going to stop talking. That is a double standard. When someone tells you to leave them alone do you usually ignore their request and keep harassing them?

This board is very dysfunctional. I'm expected to support other people and agree with them but they don't have to respect my boundaries and allow me to have my own opinion and share my experiences?

I've had enough of this cr*p and after dealing with you and some others, I won't name, I'm saying that some of you are a bunch of self-absorbed you know whats.

BACK OFF ALREADY!


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Mommybunny, why do you see it as me attacking you? Why don't you see that your aggression is keeping this going? You're asking me to leave you alone, yet you won't leave me alone. You are the one who said she didn't respect my opinion and therefore would stop speaking to me or responding to me. Then why don't you stop? Objectivly, it takes two to tango.

As for respecting boundaries, why are you the only one who can say when others can speak? How am I not respecting your boundaries? You say you consider me "insulting and boorish and condescending" and me and others to be "a bunch of self-absorbed you know whats". You are the one who is calling names and being rude.

I think the double standard is yours.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

You're right. It takes two to tango. So what's your part in it?

You're the one who told me to stop talking but stated that you would continue to do so.

You are unable to discuss or debate a topic without resorting to personal insults, false assumptions, and accusations.

If you need to resort to these tactics then it is kind of obvious that your position is not that strong. If it was you would just stick to the facts and leave personalities and you are this, you are that statements out of the equation.

I have no problem debating with you just keep your personal insults and false accusations out of the discussion.

There are some things that I shouldn't have said on this board. Sometimes when my feelings are hurt and I feel attacked I will respond in a similar manner. I know better and shouldn't stoop to the level of the one attacking and insulting me. I will try my best to keep personal insults to myself and just stick to the topic. That was my original intention anyways.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Mommybunny, it was you who said you would stop responding to me. Yet you continued. "I don't want to converse with you any further. I'm telling you that any further posts from you directed to me will be ignored and not responded to by me."

To that I said "If you don't want to converse with me, that's easy enough. Just stop talking. ;)"

That's not telling you to stop talking. That's saying if you don't want to talk to me, the power is in your hands.
I still stand by my statement that you must be enjoying this otherwise you wouldn't be participating.

I don't think I have resorted "to personal insults, false assumptions, and accusations" nor do I feel I am "unable to discuss or debate a topic" without doing so.

You misinterpreted one of my comments. I was slow in understanding your distress. You went all around the boards making strange and accusatory comments. When I finally figured out what was going on, I apologized for any distress my innocent comment had caused you. You accused me. I did not accuse you.

My part in this has to try to straighten out your misperception that I was insulting you and explain my stance on people assuming that those of one class should stick together by providing what I feel to be a very strong case. I do not feel that I have been innappropriate in the least, and actually feel that considering your behavior that I have been kind beyond what many would consider necessary. But I don't want you to feel angry or upset, and I can tell that having your preconceptions of life challenged is distressing to you, so I am doing my best to treat you nicely despite your constant barrage of sarcasm.

As for this comment "If it was you would just stick to the facts and leave personalities and you are this, you are that statements out of the equation"

I have no idea what you're trying to say. Would you care to elaborate?


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

You're making personal accusations and attacks again.

Humility is the beginning of reconciliation and it would seem that you don't have any humility.

You have too much pride and that is not a good thing.

I believe that you don't think you said anything wrong but that is not the case.

You would like me to take all the blame but I'm not willing to do so.

You have not challenged any of my preconceptions in life. My life is based on a strong foundation.

Again a prideful statement that has no base in reality.

There is really no point in continuing this conversation so I will leave it at that.


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RE: Education: Public V.S. Private

Mommybunny, I don't want you to take blame for anything, nor am I blaming you for anything. I am not attacking you, nor am I being prideful. You do not agree with me, and that is ok too.

If you believe there is no point, I respect your opinion and your right to discontinue communication.


 o Post a Follow-Up

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