When the thread reaches (or nears) its maximum of 150 posts, a new thread will be started to continue the discussion.

The reaction of most mothers who are estranged from their adult children is to question themselves and to ask what it was that they did wrong. Most mothers are quick to feel guilty, to blame themselves, to criticize themselves, and to judge themselves over every decision and action that they made as a parent. Most mothers want to understand how and why they are estranged and to hope for reconciliation. Most mothers want to know if reconciliation is possible and how to help it happen if it is possible.

This thread is principally for those of you who have been estranged by your children to share your story. It is not for those who have not experienced what it is like to be estranged by your children. However, there are always those who think that they know all the answers to other people's issues whether or not they have a clue. The best strategy with those who are clueless critics is to ignore them.

As for myself, I don't write often about my own experience except where it might help someone else with theirs. I have been estranged for many years from some of my relatives. I have felt the pain. I do know what it is like. Enough time has gone by that I do not feel the pain that I once felt although there is always that sense of loss, the wish that everything could be fixed and that harmony could reign.

In 2001 I set up a website and a blog on the subject of family estrangements that I link to from time to time. There you will find information on the subject, some of which might be helpful in your situation.

Ginny

My dh and I have many issues with my mother-in-law being controlling, but somehow we manage to let it go and see the good behind her actions. My own mother has substance abuse issues that I am beyond trying to help with and I am forced to stay away. While I do not see her in person often I do call her a few times a month just to say hello. I have a sibling that did not like my husband and voiced his negative opinions to everyone but me after their first meeting. I had the choice of being angry with him and avoiding him or just acting as if nothing happened. I chose the second to save the relationship. My father and uncle had a falling out and did not talk for months. I told my dad he had 2 choices as I saw it. He could be right or have a relationship with his brother. He thought long and hard and chose the latter.

I think that many estrangements are caused because some people can not accept something and to them it is easier at first to stay away. Then so much time passes that they don't know how to go back. I find it so sad.

The only advice I can give is that life is too short to miss out on those you love. Try to deal with the bad so you can have the good whenever possible. I know in some situations that is not possible but I myself do not want to look back on my life with regrets. Once a loved one is gone you can never get that time back with them you missed over a disagreement.

I told my son last summer that life is short, let's put all of this behind us and accept all of us for who we are...start fresh. That only lasted until the first time we got together to start our new relationship. After we left our meeting, my dil came up with more wrongs that we did to her and my forced my son to confront us about them. All of it was ridiculous, but we can't convince him of this.

He has been brainwashed, and continues to be so.

I truly respect the differences you have with your mil and how you are managing them. There are always differences no matter how well one gets along. I had trouble with my fil for the beginning years of our marriage, but I gritted my teeth and we got through it. My fil eventually accepted me and we developed a good relationship. I never let on though that I had any problems with him, and I think that is a key difference from these stories.

Everyone has to have things perfect now, no bumps in the road. Intolerance has become epidemic.

anniebal

Ginny, thanks for starting up the new thread!

life is short ....i learned that at an early age. i also learned too that not all things can or will be worked our in relationships. with support from others and luv for ourselves we can learn to live without those relationships....if that is how it turns out and create new relationships. my friends are now my family.

"everyone has to have things perfect now, no bumps in the road, intolerance has become an epidemic"...how true and well spoken. thanks for sharing this....so true to life now. i needed to hear that....u hit the nail on the head.

kindness and compassion is so refreshing this days.

in luv & light....raven

It will be one sad, and lonely generation as they age and discover what they gave up and lost. Of course they'll have no one to blame but themselves. What an empty life they have chosen, how can they possibly be happy?

anniebal

raven, I agree with you. Life is too short to spend it agonizing over what no longer is and can't be. I agree that not everything can be resolved, no matter how much love we feel for another. Like you, I have a longterm estrangement. Thirteen years now. Life can and does go on. This may seem cold to those who are fresh to the pain of estrangement. It certainly wasn't how I felt several years ago.

There are women who can accept the fact of being estranged from their children almost immediately. I don't think I've ever met someone who could do that but I know that they exist. They just don't bother coming to a board like this to talk about it. Why should they? They have no problem, no depression, no grief or not enough to motivate them to look for a support group. I am not sure whether to envy them or not. I don't know whether it is positive or negative not to be bothered by an estrangement from a child. But I suspect that it is normal for a mother to feel pain and grief over the loss of a child for any reason and to need to talk about our loss.

Raven, I am glad that you come here to post from time to time and that you share your experience of how you feel after 19 years of estrangement. This is a perspective that most mothers who come here do not have.

It took me a long time to stop thinking about my daughter every day, every morning, when I awoke. It took me a long time to accept that there was something that made it impossible for us to have a relationship. I might never fully understand what that something is. It doesn't matter what it is really. I know that it is something that is not in my power to fix. Whatever it is. I accept it, no matter what it is. But it takes a long time to get to the point of really accepting it.

I have gone on with my life and I have a lot to be grateful for. I have a family. I have friends. I have people who love me and whom I love. I accept that my daughter is not among them. I accept that she is either not capable of appreciating anything positive in the possibility of having a relationship with me or that she just can't bring herself to have a relationship with me even if she thought it could be positive. Either way the fact is that she cannot do it. I accept it. But getting to this point wasn't quick and wasn't easy.

Ginny

It does help hearing from you and raven since it reminds me that I can survive, that others have been right where I am at now at did get through it. One day at a time as you say.

anniebal

ginny...thank you for your comments. honestly...i have always enjoyed posting here but up until today i felt like the minority WHICH I KNOW I AM because my estrangements have been long term as yours have been. i believe that good emotional health requires forgiveness of yourself, grace and believing you are somehow worth that.

as u stated...getting to this point wasn't quick and wasn't easy and it seems that we have made huge progress. i thank you for opening up and sharing of yourself. i feel like i know you so much better now and there is a connection.

with grace...raven

Both you and Ginny are the examples I aim to immitate. You both have been in this for a long, long time and your words of wisdom cannot be over-rated. It still seems so impossible at times that I don't know how I get through it. I do know that these postings help a great deal if even only for the fact that I know I'm not alone.

anniebal

please don't get me wrong. i still have times when the pain/loss REALLY hurts and it all seems surreal...like how could this have happened and how could it have gone on so long??? when i am really hurting i come here to post...to get the pain out of myself...hoping someone...anyone...will listen. i understand how you feel...it's just so sad that you can lose your child...because we HAVE LOST our child/children and at times it just really hurts and the hole is so empty.

tomorrow the sun will shine even though the rain will come again...and we shall get through this together.

luv....raven

It's hard to even say the words that I've lost a child, but I have and it hurts. This isn't supposed to happen outside of separation due to a death, certainly not by choice.

anniebal

thinking of you....raven

when i was growing up...during that time period...a subject of this nature was never discussed...same for motherless daughters. having said that...i didn't even know such a thing existed. and i believe it has always gone on but we just never knew it...i just feel i wasn't prepared for so many situations that could possibly come my way later in life.

My son has estranged himself from us for the last 15 months, yet he started drifting a part very slowly once he met my dil. We knew from the start that she didn't like us, but we could never figure out why. For years I bent over backwards accomodating his/her every wish, tip toeing around so I wouldn't hurt her feelings but nothing worked. She was polite for the most part during the first 5 months
they dated, but once they were engaged it was a completely different girl. I feel like my son struggled to keep things together, but one of his problems was that he would never take our side...ever. If he had told her even once that she was wrong or expecting too much perhaps we would have a relationship now.

I feel that my dil manipulated and brainwashed my son since he was naive, immature and inexperienced when he fell in love with her. It's gone on far too long to blame just her for this estrangement, at some point one is accountable. I feel that he needs to mature and quit being so self centered and dramatic. Who knows if this will happen, I can only hope.

We have apologized, bent over backwards and even offered to pay for us to go to a neutral therapist to resolve any issues. My dil will not go to a therapist.

anniebal

PS...We never discussed estrangement issues either, but then I never truly knew anyone who was estranged. Of course the family members may not have estranged completely to be estranged either, and I'm sure there was much we didn't know about since families kept things so secret when I was growing up. It does seem to be more prevalent now but maybe people are just able to talk about it more (i.e. this web site.)

I have a sister who I have had many episodes with and have forgiven over and over again. Now I maintain a relationship with her, and it's thoughtful and caring but I don't let myself get drawn into trusting her again. Every times that has happened I have been hurt it seems, so now I just don't let it happen.

Perhaps you can see your daughter on your terms? Have a reasonable limit between visits and just try not to overdo things. Your daughter needs to prove to you she can be trusted again, and after the last 4 years it will take a lot of convincing on her part. I don't blame you for being lost or scared. I wish you luck in whatever you decide to do.

grandmimi, these stories are never any easier to hear and I'm sorry to have to hear yet another one from you. I don't know how our kids can be so cruel and all I can come up with is the time this generation was raised was centered around raising self esteem. It was society as a whole that dictated this to us, so we just followed along. None of the kids could finish last, C's were acceptable and even praised, all teams get a trophy, etc.etc.etc. Our kids were taught that they needed do anything to get praise. Now they are so entitled it's pathetic. If we raise an issue we are chastised and punished for doing so afterall they are perfect and who are we to criticize? I'm generalizing about their generation of course, but there certainly is a lot of this parental abuse going on it seems.

I don't think there is much you can do to get your daughter back other then just letting her know you love her and are open to having her back in your life whenever she feels able to do so. You can let her know how much you miss her and your granddaughter and hope that she will forgive and forget as they say. Encourage her to move forward and accept all of you for who you are. There has been much hurt on both sides (especially since nothing hurts as much as our child choosing not to have us in their lives!)

In the end, it is up to our children to come back without demands or conditions. None of us our perfect and we've all made mistakes but I'd just like to know where the forgiveness comes in?

anniebal

I don't know both sides... I'm a child of an estranged mother, but it seems to me that you're saying that the children are cruel, abusive and need to be less demanding.

Who raised your kids? Why did they turn out like this, abusive, cruel and demanding? Did you ever think to look to yourselves rather that keep saying as Witchiepoo said "how could this have happened and how could it have gone on so long???"

Certainly some of you can pinpoint when things went wrong. As Grandmimi said "Now I realize these words were her excuse to end our relationship which I feel she was gradually building up to."

Now, she's apologized for the words that were the breaking point with her daughter, but what about everything that lead up to that?

I'm not condoning children being "cruel" to their parents, I'm just saying as a child it can be very hard to go against your parents, can be very hard to disagree, have one's own opinion that is respected by ones parents, maintain a relationship with ones parents.

You are on the other side of the fence, and I won't attempt to say whether you are or aren't justified, I take you at your word for the way things are in your own personal relationship.

My statement stated that my opinion was a generalization, I know not all kids or parents for that matter treat their loved ones in this manner. It does seem to me that there is an awful lot of these estrangements taking place.

You know what changed with people learning to forgive their loved ones for any of the mistakes they have made? When did walking away become chick? It's a power play when someone does this to another person or at least most of the time. It is one persons way of attempting to control the other, and certainly not a constructive way to heal a relationship no matter who instigates the separation.

There are justifiable separations, I'm not talking about those. I'm talking about over dramatizing one's personal relationships to the point of taking the coldest, cruelest step yet and that is estrangement. What if we parents had walked away from our children for every little infraction on us, and believe me there is a life long list to be sure.

anniebal

I agree that many children are cruel to their parents. But what I'm asking is how could these parents not notice that their children are like this until it's too late?

Perhaps I did take words out of context, and if I did I apologize. But they stood out to me and that's why I commented on them.

You wrote... "What if we parents had walked away from our children for every little infraction on us, and believe me there is a life long list to be sure."

This is what I'm talking about. It's not about the parents, it's about the children. I'm not advocating children walking away for every infraction, but children haven't learned about relationships yet, that's what parents are for. To even consider walking away from a child for a small infraction is a very strange concept to me.

Surely this couldn't have come out of the blue. Surely if you look deep enough you can see how you helped cause this estrangement? I can see how I caused my estrangement with my mother. I should have stood my ground a long time ago. When I finally did she was shocked. She didn't understand how, if I had not called her on her behavior for so many years, how I could be fed up with it now. Getting out of the fog of growing up, seeing other people's relationships with their parents, being able to look at childhood objectively rather than as a participant - these are eye-opening, mind blowing realizations sometimes.

I'm not saying you or anyone else is a bad parent or deserving of the treatment you are receiving. What I'm saying is can't you see even a little bit that you may have caused this? Or is it all the fault of the spoiled, disrespectful children of this generation?

Laurene,
Thank you for your response. I think it's interesting that as an estranged child my opinion is "...can't you see even a little bit that you may have caused this? Or is it all the fault of the spoiled, disrespectful children of this generation?"

And you are saying "I'm going to stick to my belief that today's kids who estrange themselves FOR THE MOST PART are selfish, controlling and self entitled."

It seems most parents with estranged children (on this board) agree with you, and most children (who are estranged, and on this board) disagree. It would be interesting to hear the other side of the story.

I don't see how I am arguing, could you please elaborate? I'm asking questions because this forum has a lot of mothers who are estranged and I'm trying to get information on how parents feel so that I have a good idea of what my mother is feeling. I'm trying to reconcile my feelings with her feelings so that hopefully some day this can be resolved.

I've explained why my mother and I are on "the outs", and I don't think I am blameless. She does, and that's why I'm asking other mothers if they have considered their part. I'm not accusing anyone of anything, as I don't have, and never will have both sides of the story, nor will I ever have gone through what each individual has experienced.

Straycat, have you read your words to me, and considered how those words would come across to another person? Are you deliberately trying to be mean?

I have been reading these posts that seem to be going nowhere.

As I have written before, I am working on a documentary that really explores lots of these issues...there are 2 sides and yet.. I interviewed Mark Sichel this past weekend and his words were ..that for the most part.. parents haven't done anything WRONG. Parents have in most cases, done the best they could, and the punishment we are receiving in NO way fits the crime. Obviously no parent is perfect and children (adult or otherwise) can turn anything into a crime.. but does it warrant cutting them off completely.

silversword... I will speak to you as someone who is or has been on both sides. I have had a very difficult relationship with my mother.. I am an only child and I am here to tell you about someone who NEVER respects my boundaries and my friends feel that she is just downright mean and ugly to me sometimes. I have probably set an awful example for my children as I didn't exactly "trash" her, but I did not demand the respect for her that they should have been taught to give. Now that I taught them how to behave.. they have cut themselves off from me.. If you have read any of my posts.. I can assure you that I did nothing to deserve what has been handed to me. I want you to know that the thing that has kicked me the hardest throughout these last 2 years is that now I know how I made my mother feel. I am so so ashamed. Believe me, my mother hasn't changed a bit, people don't, but she is my mother, when she is gone I will have no one. I also know that my mother did everything with love and caring for me. I know that she might have failed in my eyes, but I know that she didn't think to herself.. how can I hurt my daugher? In fact the opposite. and in doing that.. she never has been able to let me go.. she continues to do too much if that makes any sense, and then when I don't appreciate it, she is angry.. I used to try to tell her, to say.. I can't win, I can't seem to do enough to please her.. but now I am beginning to see things from her point of view.
I don't know if that helps you.. someday, I hope for your sake, you can find a way to have some kind of relationship with your mother. It's not easy I know.. but I think the thing I am hearing in the interviews I have done, my own situation, and some professional opinions, points to the fact that somewhere we have forgotten how to have respect for our parents and if that means being more tolerant.. then it's lessons for all of us.

I am sorry to go on about this.. but because of my own experience.. I can only hope to help you..
Call your mother.. you don't have to apologize, just say hello...and then stick to your guns and your boundaries.

Elizabeth

sarahsmom-I understand about your relationship with your mom. Unfortunate as it is, my mother doesn't do things "with love" in mind. She has a lot of issues, some of which were manifested in physical abuse toward me when I was an infant and continued to complicate my life due to the effects they had on me physically. She also tried to kill me several times as I got older so I do feel the imposed distance I put between her and my children was warranted. (she saw them in my presence only). Also- I am not sure that since my children are not aware of the "why" that it has been an influence in the way they have secluded me.
So, I am in a "catch-22" so to speak. Besides; she would just deny it and the witness's on her side of the family are deceased. I will not inflict pain on my father to rehash those times because it is very painful for him. Besides; I was nothing like my mother so this treatment is certainly unjust. Plus a comparison isn't going to change my children and how they feel...
It's a loss that we will always carry I am sure. After two years with two of my children estranged and one with almost 4 years estranged my heart continues to hurt...but my life has gone on, and I do find that I have begun to realize that they are different than I am in their feelings for other's. It appears to be working for them. They seem happy from what I "hear," and that is always what I have wished for them.

I didn't know who Mark Sichel was, so I looked him up. He wrote an interesting paragraph that I copied below:

"But other kinds of intolerance constitute the root cause of any family fights that lead to rifts, such as an inability to tolerate another point of view, holding grudges, and other forms of pettiness or nastiness that impede forgiveness."

I find that on this thread and others there is a prevailing inability or refusal to consider another point of view. I'm beginning to think that the way some posters are responding is the way they communicate with their children too, and it is becoming pretty clear to me why their children have a hard time communicating with them.

I'm not saying the parents here did anything WRONG. I'm asking them if they can't pinpoint what went wrong, when it happened, how the downward spiral started, and if they can see their part in the events that have occurred AT ALL.

And, besides you saying you can see how you caused your estrangement with your mother, and you can see how you set yourself to be mistreated by your children- no one has said that they could have caused it in the least, besides "giving their children everything". I have said time and again, I'm not trying to insinuate that anyone is wrong. I'm trying to see if anyone will take responsibility for what happened "to" them.

Instead, I get really nasty responses like "You know what-we are all just going to ignore you and I guess you can just sit and drink your wine your daughter told you was a drug on the site you posted...and keep thinking you are "heaven sent." You sure have a lot of extra time-guess your man bailed out too-huh?!?"

If that poster speaks this way to a stranger, imagine what she sounds like with people she is well acquainted with. ..

I’m sure that most parents do the best they can. My mother did the best she could. But I cannot be around her. Her behavior is toxic to me and it was manifesting physically. While she was living with me I had shingles from the stress all the time. In the last six months I have only had them once.

You wrote…"I did not demand the respect for her that they should have been taught to give". I don’t demand that my child respect anyone. Respect is earned. Courtesy to fellow human beings is required. I do not respect my mother. But I don’t talk bad about her to my daughter and I would not allow my daughter to be unkind to anyone. I have not forgotten how to have respect for her; I have bottomed out on dealing with her abuse. I literally cannot take it anymore. And I don’t think I should have to, or be branded as someone who is not trying because I will not put myself in the situation to be abused any longer.

As for your suggestion that I call my mother, thank you for your concern, but that's just not going to happen. I have absolutely no desire to talk with her; I have nothing to say to her. She has not called to talk to me since she stormed out, screaming at me, since she called my friends and family to tell them lies about me. Why would I apologize to her? I'm not keeping my daughter from her or bad-mouthing her to anyone. She made her bed. Now she's lying in it. Like you, she estranged from her mother, after thirty years they reconciled. I guess that is the cycle. Perhaps you, or someone who is trying to be mean, will say that I've got it coming to me. We can only do our best, and I hope this doesn't happen to me. One of the reasons I am asking questions is to find out how this happened. Some seem more preoccupied with lamenting "how did I get here" and "how can they treat me like this" than "how could I have caused this" and "maybe I could have done something to create this". I'm pretty confident that many adults think they have valid reasons for not wanting their parents in their life right now. Much as someone would not want to hang out with someone with different principles, morals, values, that can happen between parents and children too. Prior to the past two generations people would just silently bear the incompatability. I think it may be a lot healthier to take a break.

I have one response to what you wrote.. yes, I said I didn't demand the respect for my mother from my children...
you say respect is earned.. I have said the EXACT same thing to myself as justification for why it was ok for my children to behave the way they did to my mother. In hindsight.. I was wrong.. my opinion of course, but I think I was wrong.. children are born selfish.. we all are.. we are taught to respect and to be kind and giving to others. This is not something that comes naturally to children. I understand you have a different situation and I certainly would not try to compare my own to yours. I will never say "you have it coming to you". You must live with yourself .. as Mark Sichel said im the interview I did with him.. he related a story about a kid he is counseling..
he said the boy is 15 and his parents have done nothing but try their best.. the boy is really angry and has now gotten big physically.. so his demands when not met are now getting bigger by him threatening his parents. Mark said that all the other shrinks he has been to ask him to describe his anger and tell them what he is feeling.. as Mark said, this just feeds his already inflated sense of self, instead Mark asked him if he thinks he is a good person.. the boy answered resoundingly YES.. then Mark said.. well would a good person treat his parents/family/people who love him this way.. I don't know but somehow that was a big one for me. Apparently the boy reacted as though someone had thrown cold water on him. He is beginning to understand.
You seem to be focusing on those that have said.. "how did I get here".. "how can they treat me like this".. well guess what.. I am asking the same things.. there was not a "point" in our relationship that anything went wrong. I can't pinpoint a moment or an action. When I read Mark Sichel's book.. he seems to talk about 4 typical reasons that people become estranged.. I think you probably feel you fall into one of those.. physical abuse, emotional abuse, difference of opinion, difference of lifestyle. I am focused on those of us that don't fit into those catagories. There are a number of people who's children have for no apparent reason said "I am done with you".. these are the people that you are not understanding. The whole point of the documentary that I am exploring is on that subject. In fact, I can give you an interesting aside on my own story. One of my best friends here in town has 2 sons .. twins .. they are good friends with both of my sons. One in particular has been particularly critical of me.. everytime his mother (my friend) would try to defend me it would end in a big fight. She eventually said that she couldn't talk to him about me because it would end badly. This summer he called me to talk about job prospects as I am in the business he is trying to break into. At the end of the conversation I told him that I would be more than happy to help him but he must promise me one thing.. he must promise me that he will NEVER fight with his mother again over my situation. I went on to tell him a few things from my perspective.. he was silent. I told him to go home and give his mother a big hug and a kiss and never have words because of me. Apparently he went home and told his mother that there were 2 sides to the story and he was wrong. When I started doing these interviews for this documentary, I needed help. I am a producer but I can't manage the camera and the interview at the same time. I had lined up a woman to help me ask the questions while I filmed. She couldn't do it at the last minute. I was telling my friend about this and saying i really needed someone to help.. she said why don't you ask Chris? I said I had thought of that, but I didn't want to put him in an awkward position.. she said.. just ask .. he can say no. So I asked, he said yes, and off we went to Long Island for the first interview. It must have been a little tough for him to hear, but at the end when the camera was turned off, he jumped in and started talking to the person I interviewed about family and respect for your mother. His mother is from Peru and he said he understood how different it is in other countries.. his mother is his center. Long story short.. he is now my "cameraman" .. I belong to another message board and someone on the board has offered me 2 tickets to fly to Dallas to interview her. I am going and he is going with me.. what a weird turn of events.. since he is my son's friend and went to my son's wedding which I wasn't invited to, I guess I am not all that bad.
I am sorry to ramble.. but i think some of us on this forum are talking about a new and unusual phenomena. Now that I have interviewed a few people.. I am beginning to see a pattern. I don't think there is a clear cut answer, but I think this has social and cultural roots. I think you will hear more about this. I think that we as parents are at fault, albeit not intentionally or maliciously.. but we have created the situation by focusing our lives on our children. We get them out of scrapes when perhaps we shouldn't, we make sure that they have the best of everything even if it means a sacrifice for ourselves, we have gone to the ends of the earth to make sure that things were better for them than they were for us... and we do all this without insisting on respect in return. (I know you think you have to earn it.. but no that's not what Mark said.. he said that as a society we have lost our moral compass as evident in the past few weeks news.) Then again, our children have been exposed to a culture of excess, greed and it's hard to find examples of virtue, morals and true character for them to look up to... so I think it's time for change.. I think we've been hearing that tune!

"I think that we as parents are at fault, albeit not intentionally or maliciously.. but we have created the situation by focusing our lives on our children. We get them out of scrapes when perhaps we shouldn't, we make sure that they have the best of everything even if it means a sacrifice for ourselves, we have gone to the ends of the earth to make sure that things were better for them than they were for us... and we do all this without insisting on respect in return. (I know you think you have to earn it.. but no that's not what Mark said.. he said that as a society we have lost our moral compass as evident in the past few weeks news.)"

This is how people don't earn the respect of their children. Give them everything, get them out of trouble and don't insist they face the consequences.

That's taking away their self-respect as well as telling them that you don't respect them, as people capable of making decisions, as people who need to work for what they are given. Of course children don't respect parents like that. They are glorified money/confidence bags. Of course these children are going to grow up feeling entitled and then not respect their parents when they get older. When the parents finally say "enough" now you have to buy your own stuff, "enough" you can’t treat me like this anymore- the kids are shocked. What a mean parent I have! How could they do this to me?!

I respect the morals and values my mother gave me. I don't respect the way she is treating me. But she raised me better than to cut her off from my daughter, than to ignore gifts that are sent to my daughter, than to badmouth her to friends and family.

I can completely relate to StrayCat's assertation that abused children still want to be with their mother. My mother abused me, but I wouldn't get out of it and validated her abuse in many different ways before I could get strong enough to leave. I believe it's referred to as Stockholm syndrome, where hostages relate to their captors.

Being a loving parent is not wrong. But to blame the children who are products of their environment is wrong. I watch friends and their children, who are spoiled rotten, and I think when they grow up their children may very well reject them too. Why not? The parents have not shown morals, values, integrity, because they allowed their children to walk all over them for the past 18 years.

When you say you are still "paying for things they (your boys) did" that hurts my heart. You sacrificed for them, and this is how they repay you. But why wouldn't they? They never had to 'pay' before, let mom do it, that's what she's good for.

The way that a parent 'earns' respect, or a person earns respect is by not allowing another person to take advantage of them, while being a kind, loving, giving person. My parents respected their parents because it was obvious how hard the parents were working; the children had a lot of chores, chores that had a big impact on the survival of the family unit. My grandparents would never have dreamed of bailing their children out of jail had they landed there. "You got yourself in there, now you get yourself out" is a big slogan in my family. My mother told me from a young age that if I got pregnant in high school she was not going to babysit. I knew my choices would have a direct impact on my life. Children were told if you get in trouble in school, expect a whipping when you get home. They knew from a very young age where they stood. There were boundaries.

I think most of the parents here have good intentions. But I think by saying poor me they are ignoring their contribution to the problem. They raised spoiled brats accustomed to receiving everything. Now that they want to relate on an adult level, they find their children are just big kids, gimme gimme gimme.

And this is what I mean by accepting responsibility. Rather than saying "my kids are brats, how could this have happened" to really look at the history and say "wow, I created this. By not making my child work to pay back the store for the candy he stole, by not insisting he work to pay for his first car, by letting him do activities when he was behaving badly rather than insist he stay home, by not enforcing my values and morals as the standard in my household… I created this child".

I don't know if I'm right, this is just my opinion, and I'm open to changing it. As my crass uncle says, "opinions are like A-holes, everyone's got one"

I do have one question...By the "as a society we have lost our moral compass as evident in the past few weeks news" what are you referring to?

And I don't think you have failed. You raised your children to adults. That is success.

Are your children productive members of society? Are they working, paying taxes, following the law, pro-creating? They are successes too.

Your damaged relationship is not indicative of failure. It's humanity. Some people kill other people. Some people abuse other people. Your "crime" was loving your children and giving in excess which led to the detriment of your relationship. Too bad that's not the worst a person could do, because we'd have a much better world.

I used to envy kids like that. One year at camp I french braided everyone's hair, including my own, in our cabin for parent visiting day. One mom was astounded that a third grader could braid like that. She squeezed her daughter while telling me that she wished her daughter could do her own hair, but she just didn't want to. I couldn't relate. My mom told me if I wanted long hair I had to keep it clean and out of my eyes. I wanted the hair, so I learned to braid. But I longed for a mother who would do my hair for me. Now, I look back and see what she gave me. Self-suffeciency. Self-worth. When I look back at the girl and her relationship with her mother, I see it now as the mother didn't really want her daughter to do things on her own, she wanted to be the one who provided them for her. Much easier for the kid in the short term, and the mother felt powerful. But what happens later?

I agree wholeheartedly with all you are saying ....
however...
I did not GIVE them everything.. we had rules.. simple ones..
be home when you are supposed to and if you get into trouble.. your problem..
I still have not gotten their respect because I am different than most of their friends. I had a curfew, their friends didnt, I didn't buy my son a new car.. he had to drive my grandmother's 1971 Ford if he wanted a car. My son had to work three jobs to repay my husband for the mailbox he smashed or the people's house he trashed. When I say I am still paying.. my husband asked my son to take him to the train early one morning a few yrs ago. On the way home from the train, my son blacked out.. crossed the line and hit a young girl and her brother on their way to school. Luckily no one was killed, no permanent damage, no drinking, etc but we are being sued, and they are claiming double and triple damages which the insurance companies do not have to pay for if awarded. So if that were to happen .. we (my husband and I) lose everything.. yes, he is named in the suit, but it was our car, our policy, etc. He doesn't speak to us now...
So what I found was.. I am the oddball and the very mean person that my sons want nothing to do with. I even had parents of their friends asking me why i was so hard on them? I was hard on them because.. they had chores, a curfew, jobs, family responsibilites.. they got grounded if they didn't, they had to work... maybe you can tell me?

I have heard my older son now say that we tried to kill him, that we gave him an "unsafe" car to drive.. puh leeeeezz....

So yes.. I am saying poor me... the people who had no boundaries, and gave their children everything.. still have their children speaking to them!

What I meant by "moral compass" in today's society and the events of the last weeks or so.. is wall street.. greed, entitlement, etc...

Mark Sichel's next book is about how we as a society need to aspire to higher values.. we need to return to the importance of family, virtue and moral character. I personally think he is on to something .. and if we as parents are part of the problem, then we need to look at this kind of estrangement (not estrangement when warranted by abuse, drugs, alcohol, etc) as a big wake up call...
That's why I want to do this documentary .. to put it on the table.. create some conversation beyond these boards and take away the stigma that parents need to be guilty or think that they have done something wrong.. they might have, but that certainly was not the intention.. most parents think they are giving their children things and opportunities they didn't have growing up, but as you say... it isn't working...

I could be wrong, but I doubt that the reason your son is not talking to you is because he didn't get everything his friends got. There has to be something more to it than you being mean because you didn't give him everything he wanted. I grew up with very wealthy friends, with fancy cars, ski trips, beautiful homes and maids. I worked, I drove my dad's beat up car if I wanted to go somewhere.

Many kids have responsibilities that their friends don't have and they are not estranged. One of my friends could never do anything because she had a brother, 10 years younger, who was special needs. She was his caregiver from the time he was a small boy. Sure, she was envious of our friends with more "fun" lifestyles, but she understood her family dynamic.

I always had a curfew. I always had chores and a job. And I would get grounded too if I didn't follow those rules. This is normal. If your son does not have serious mental/emotional problems I would (in my non-professional opinion) think the problem is something else entirely. "NORMAL" children do not estrange from their parents over chores and not keeping up with the "Jones".

As an aside: If your older son really, truly thinks you tried to kill his younger brother, is he still speaking to you? This sounds very odd to me. How old are your boys?

Thank you for explaining the "moral compass" to me. I agree that what is going on is wrong, but it is hardly new. Think of the S&L scandal, etc... History is full of this behavior. A misguided sense of entitlement is what gained us this land we live on after all, this land "given" to us by God, to the detriment of the original inhabitants.

I understand if you don't agree with me and want to ignore my posts. We don't agree, and you don't want to talk about the differences in how a child may see an estrangement and how a mother might see an estrangement. For me, this interchange has been very helpful. I can see how many mothers think, and how their perceptions play out in relationships.

Straycat wrote..."You know what-we are all just going to ignore you and I guess you can just sit and drink your wine your daughter told you was a drug on the site you posted...and keep thinking you are "heaven sent." You sure have a lot of extra time-guess your man bailed out too-huh?!?"

That was mean. Really mean. I have not had anyone say something that mean to me in a while now, not since my mother left. I forgive you because I don't think you know what you do. But you have made your claws and your readiness to use them apparent.

We should probably stop.. writing bits and pieces is really hard..
I get ahead of myself.. my older son is speaking about himself.. that "haha" we tried to "Kill" him because we allowed him to drive a car that didn't have proper safety equipment.. ie shoulder harnesses etc.. (Boys are 24 and 26)

Second.. you are absolutely right there is more.. my sons are not speaking to me because of my DIL. Much like others on this board.. we had a wonderful relationship.. DIL included until she decided that she had to have it all to herself. She has "taken" both of my boys.. in fact, my daughter who is 11 said.. would she take me too? the answer is yes.. she was headed that way. This young lady was very nice, somewhat insecure, and used to send me flowers when the boys upset me.. her father suddenly made tons of money and everything changed. Both of my boys work for him.. right out of college.. they didn't even have to look for a job. They go on wonderful trips, ride motorcycles, go to Las Vegas etc.. they haven't had to earn a thing. Of course we make them feel "uncomfortable". That is the only reason that i have been given.

As for Normal Children estranging themselves.. I guess we aren't on the same page.. but that is the essence of all of this! that is the point!!! NORMAL PEOPLE don't behave this way. That is what these Dr's and other experts are saying..
the punishment that our children are handing us is way way worse than the crime.

Every situation is different and I know you feel that there are abuses in your relationship with your mother. Judging by actions in my home, there were never issues until my son told my husband point blank .. he had to make a choice.. he had to choose his future over his family... and I guess his brother made the same. I find that sad.. but I guess you are right when you say that at least they are out there successful and working etc. Could be worse I guess.. but the havoc they have wreaked on our family.. my mother, my husband.. my daughter, me..etc.. it doesn't make one bit of sense to me... I wasn't raised that way and I can assure I didn't raise them that way.

Whew! Glad that's what it was. My parents tried to "kill" me too! Riding in the backs of pick-up trucks, no childseats LOL!

And now I understand. DIL and her dad have money, they felt "deprived" as children and now are making up for it. Hopefully they will soon tire of the shiny stuff and remember what's really important.

You've done a good job. Your sons are productive, and they are learning how to be men. I'm willing to bet that they don't realize that choosing a future without their parents is not necessary, and that anyone who asked them to do so is not a person worth having a future with. The DIL is probably letting the money go a bit to her head. I'm sure like you said, she is a very nice girl. Misguided, but nice. It's the same reasoning as when a woman says she loves a man who is already married "but he wants to marry me!". Everyone around her says, honey, any man who will do that to another woman will do it to you too. Your boys just don't realize yet that anyone who would put money above one member of the family would just as soon do it to another member, including them. But they are young. I have hope for them :)

My mother would be arrested today.. I stood in the front seat, i was left in the car while she showed houses, I came home alone with only a dog after school.. oh my ..

Money has totally become the root of this evil! Not probably gone to her head.. totally gone to her head.. she used to come hang out at our house.. just watching tv with me and my husband even when my son wasn't home. Now.. oh boy..during the long boring story of this mess.. I met her at a coffee shop to "talk". She asked me if they could go back to taking my daughter (then 9) places with them (my son and her) .. I told her .. of course, if you all want to be part of our family .. she is not a pawn in a "divorce" to be just picked up and dropped off. So she said to me and I quote.. so you are saying that I have to pay HOMAGE to you first and then she can go with us? I about fell over.. being a nice person and still being thoughtful of my son and trying to patch up a relationship.. I didn't rip her a new one. I did tell her I didn't care for her choice of words and that yes, she needed to show some participation in our family otherwise, I would not be doing the right thing for my child. What an awful example..
it just goes on and on... but again.. that's why I want to pursue this documentary because I have discovered I am not the only one and there are many variations on this theme.

I agree with you.. if my son will do this to me, he will do it to her and if not to her he will be teaching his children how to treat him someday!

Happy Halloween everyone!

You wrote: "I interviewed Mark Sichel this past weekend and his words were ..that for the most part.. parents haven't done anything WRONG. Parents have in most cases, done the best they could, and the punishment we are receiving in NO way fits the crime."

"...if my son will do this to me, he will do it to her and if not to her he will be teaching his children how to treat him someday!"

This is what can drive me nuts. Does my child (any child) not see that her spouse will treat her the same as he treats her family and that her children will learn that it is acceptable to do the same and therefore, her children in all likelihood will estrange themselves from her one day.

Using the grandchildren as weapons: "you will never see your grandchildren again if you do not do what I tell you to do." Do they not realize that one day their children will realize that they have been "used" in a dispute with parents/in-law? What lesson have their children learned: if you don't like what someone is doing, you just dispose of them. I guess our children cannot see far enough into the future to realize that "what goes around comes around."

As much as I know the issues began with my dil from almost the get go and her demands and manipulation of my son, of course I can look back and see mistakes we made that may not have lead to the estrangement but certainly didn't help the situation any.

When are dil pushed us over the edge with her behavior (mind you this was after 3.5 years of bending over backwards to please her,) we did react immaturely with a silly request for her. We were so angry at how she behaved and how she impacted our time with so much negativity that we reacted with a 'we'll make her respect us' attitude. Of course it was silly and served only to humiliate her. Me and hubby have agreed that it was a mistake and I did apologize to my son a month or so later regarding our demand of his wife. Though he accepted our apology and we tried to move on, I don't feel that our dil was going to allow that to happen. After we got together for what we believe was a very pleasant meal, a few days later we heard about all these so called hurts we had done to our dil. It was crazy since there were no hurts, it was all in her mind. It didn't make any difference what we thought thou since my son bought into my dils dramatics.

I have to say that right now things have improved a tiny bit. We are going to attempt to all see each other on Thanksgiving day (son & dil coming after dinner to visit.) I'm hoping this can lead to some much needed healing for all of us. I had a very nice conversation with my son, the nicest and most natural conversation since our estrangement. I'm not getting myself worked up over the possibility that things will get better however since I don't know if I can handle the hurt that follows if it doesn't proceed positively.

anniebal

I imagine you are feeling excited and relieved that they are coming. Yet, also nervous and anxious as to what will come about afterwards.

It's a terrible position that our children put us in sometimes. Every time my daughter would plan a visit, she would end up mad at me midway through, grab my grandkids, and take off back down the road. I was always left shaking my head as to what I could have possibly done wrong (again.)

We have never had a visit from our daughter (in her adult life) that hasn't ended with some type of drama.

I am convinced that if a person decides to become offended, they will find a way to become offended, no matter what you say or do.

So, relax (yeah, right) and enjoy the day with them. And when you close your eyes that night, know that you did the very best you could possibly do.

Please keep me updated on how the holiday went. I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers as this day approaches.

kmttsmom

I read that and and thought WOW how totally inappropriate of your DIL! Why in the world would anyone let their child be alone with someone who would talk to them that way?!!!

Good for you for putting your daughters well being first. Don't leave her with anyone who models how to be disrespectful and undermining to you and your husband as parents.

Your comparing it to a divorce situation-like they were out to receive visitation that you owed them without having a healthy relationship with you-really struck a cord with me.

My MIL wanted to literally not speak to my husband and I but do as she pleased with our child. We struggled with the relationship for years before things came to a head and my husband had enough and told her so.

If someone purposely doesn't have a healthy relationship with you, giving them a position of influence in your childs life is a bad idea.

Good for you as parents for standing your ground. I cringe at all the stories I read here where either the parents or the adult children are bending over backwards to take inappropriate treatment.

You didn't owe them access to your daughter. Being around her should be a benefit of a relationship that is healthy for everyone.

Sarahsmom: "so you are saying that I have to pay HOMAGE to you first and then she can go with us?"

Wow. That brings to mind what is going on with my mom and I. She says little negative things to my DD on the phone. Luckily my DD has a pretty firm head on her shoulders, but it's still really not a good feeling to have. And it's not really big things she's saying, they're little things, but they are undermining of our life. That's the thing I am most worried about with my DD seeing my mother. And that's what I'd worry about if I were in your situation. What is she telling your DD when she is with them? When your DD says something, and they say, casually, oh, your mom doesn't know, it's really like this...

Of course, siblings and grandparents are usually "cooler" and more casual than parents, so the kid thinks they're more fun.

I'm so sorry, it must be really hard to know what to do in that situation. Is your daughter seeing them at this time?
My mom cut off contact with one of my aunts when I was in Jr. high. My aunt would wait until my mom was gone for her meetings once or twice a week, then come over with treats and we'd all hang out. She probably wasn't doing the right thing, but since my mom cut her off for the stupidest reason ever that had nothing to do with us kids I really can't blame her. But it didn't make my relationship with my mom any better to know my aunt thought she was crazy too.

No she isn't seeing them.. either of her brothers or my DIL.. this is part of the whole ugly tale..
she was supposed to be a bridesmaid in her brother's wedding...but they never called or came by for months.. as I mentioned, my son told my husband that we make them feel "uncomfortable".. so with the help of a psychologist...I wrote my son a letter telling him that out of love and respect for them, we could not participate in the events surrounding their wedding, etc.. I know I know. this is inflammatory.. but they were expecting my husband (my son's stepfather) to pay for the rehearsal dinner, but they wanted nothing to do with us. The psychologist felt that if I was willing to acknowledge the line in the sand I was drawing that I was doing the right thing for my daughter. What a terrible example for her that she is not part of anything to do with them, but then for the wedding, there's a big deal, then back to the same thing. The psychologist was very clear in helping craft the note that my daughter was part of this decision.. that their behavior toward her could be considered manipulative and as her mother, it was not something I could support. anyway.. you can imagine the outcome.. complete silence! what a surprise.. but then my DIL sent invitations to my husbands entire family.. aunts uncles cousins.. remember.. stepfather.. and all of our friends. Thankfully, all of our friends and family declined and most of them sent a note saying how sad they were but that they could not take part in this event given the way they had treated us. The whole situation is just so sad.

Anyway.. to answer your question.. no my daughter hasn't seen the boys for a yr and a half. She sent them Thanksgiving cards last yr and signed them "you are one of my thanks" .. they didn't call.
Many well meaning people have said that we are doing the wrong thing by not letting her see them.. but frankly i don't trust them and as I mentioned.. my daughter asked me if I thought the DIL would try to take her away too... not only do I not trust them, but I think it sets an awful example by putting her in the position to be a pawn in a family "divorce". I feel so sorry for her.. we do talk about it.. I explain to her hopefully on her terms what is going on.. I try to tell her that I have a responsibility as well, but unless both parties want to have a relationship, I can't do much more. I also have to assure her it's not her fault.. as my dear DIL and son used to pry information from her.. she said to me.. "Mommy, you have no idea, when DIL looks at you with those eyes and that thing she does with her neck.. I can't help but tell her what she wants to know." So believe me.. NO.. I can only do what I think is right.. I could be very wrong, but time will tell.

I don't understand... Whose observations do you think are meaningless?

Your mother may have been a product of the sixties, but why in the world would you permit an uncle's , brother's ex wife to come over into your life and put your mother down?

I don't get it!

Correct me if I am wrong.

And I'm sorry your DD's efforts have gone unacknowledged by your other children. One would think that they could keep sending cards back, or nice little letters or small gifts to let her know they are thinking of her. Just a small "you are important, and even though we're not communicating with mom right now it has nothing to do with you and you are loved by everyone" sort of thing.

It sounds like your daughter understands what is going on though, and that's a really good start. For them to be putting pressure on her, like asking her questions about you, etc... that is really damaging and would make anyone uncomfortable.

IMO, you are doing the hardest thing, and the best thing. You don't like the behavior, you will not tolerate your DD being a pawn and so you are seperating with love. The door is open, but you're not playing their game.

Also, IMO, when people are saying you are doing the wrong thing by keeping her from seeing them, I can understand why someone would think that. But it would be different if you just didn't get along and she saw them and there was no perceived danger of a bigger split happening, one involving your DD. But they sound like they are active in trying to get her to "their" side rather than just trying to have a relationship with her. That's what makes me think you are doing the right thing.

"why in the world would you permit an uncle's , brother's ex wife to come over into your life and put your mother down?"

She didn't come over just to do that. She came over to see us, and we really appreciated it. We were the instigators, telling her how much we were upset at what had happened. She would agree that what happened was nuts. And then we'd watch a movie or something.

Now as an adult, I think what she did was not the best decision. It's never a good idea to go behind someone's back to be with their children. She probably should have tried to work out a way to see us without being deceitful. But we really needed support right then too, because my mom was cutting out a lot of our family right and left. We went from having a lot of adult support, to having only those who were in her new church, and those people were seriously strange people.

My aunt, though misguided, and although she could have had a lot more tact, really meant well. She really wanted to see us, and we her. She had never had children, and we were literally the closest thing to her ever having kids. We'd call her Mom2. We spent holidays, weekends, etc with her for years and years. And I don't think her observations were meaningless, it actually validated our feelings because no one else was listening to us. But this is really a unique situation, as is everyone's. I don't advocate people going behind the back of the parents to see children. In Sarah's case, I think she's doing the absolute right thing.

"Your mother may have been a product of the sixties"

My mother wasn't a product of the sixties, she was born in the 40's. What does that have to do with it?

Thank you so much for your understanding..
I understand exactly where you are coming from regarding your aunt.. that's the whole thing with my daughter who by the way is 11 now.. her brothers are 24 and 26 .. DIL is also 26.
Part of the problem with my sons is DIL manipulating.. she (DIL) hated younger sons GF and she used to ask him questions on IM .. then cut and paste and send to me.. now to find out that she was using a child to betray her parents .. makes me sick.. I don't know what will happen in the future, but sadly, if my son ever comes back and is still married to her (which he will be as long as he can stand it.. too much money involved) I don't know how I will ever be able to look at her. I keep talking to myself about forgiveness, moving on, etc.. but just last week, I was going into the city (NYC) on the train, I sat down in the first car near the front door, and happened to look up from my paper as the train is pulling into the next station and there SHE was. I grabbed my paper and ran to the back of the train and sat down quickly facing backwards before she got on.. now isn't that ridiculous! a grown woman not wanting to face my DIL!! I am pathetic.. I just didn't need that.. I have another friend who goes into the city normally on that train. I text messaged her to see what train she was on.. she said she was on that one and so was my DIL (who doesn't speak to my friend anymore either) I texted back to tell her where I was and she came back and sat with me... DIL never said a word to her.
what a world...

Too funny. I don't think you're pathetic... I've been there! It's a fight or flight response that makes my heart pound and feet start running, only when my brain catches up with the rest of me do I feel silly!!!

Dr. Laura said that the only time divorce (a long-term estrangment!) is ok is when one of the three A's are a part of the marriage: if there is Abuse, Adultry or Addiction. (I take her with a tablespoon full of salt, but the woman does have some good insight)

When I was divorcing my husband I was so conflicted because of my daughter. But that really helped me see that I needed to have a healthy family dynamic for her. Estrangement is not the answer. But sometimes it's the only answer.

When I think about it there is estrangment going on all the time. I tell my DD to "go to your room" because I don't like her behavior. I tell her that I'm going to leave the room because I don't like the way she is acting and I will stay where I am being treated like that.

She doesn't want to be alone, so she modifies her behavior. I know it's not the same thing, but in a way it is. We all have standards of behavior and a level below which we will not tolerate being in the "same room" as someone who practices that behavior.

I guess the biggest question for me is... now what? Now that we've said that this behavior is unacceptable to me, and until it changes I will remove myself from the situation... what happens?

Is there a way to reconcile without compromising our ethics/morals/personal boundaries/insert word here?

What is the first step to repairing such a relationship, and when it's at the stage of being in someone elses hand, when it's their turn to move a chess piece, what can we do?

I'm at one end, where my mother thinks it's all hunky-dorey and we can continue on our merry way of our dysfunctional relationship because she doesn't want to look at her own behavior and I'm saying no. I really feel confused because there is so much history of her twisting reality I have to untangle and find out what my truth really is. So I've seperated, with no end in sight as I don't see her changing any time soon.

You're on the other end of having children who choose an abuser over you and having to watch as they are changing from the way you raised them and making choices you'd never imagine them making. You're there for them, but there has to be a change in behavior before you'd be comfortable around them again. (Please tell me if I got any of this wrong)

Both estranged, but one from parents, one from children, completely different reasons yet the same underlying factor.

Their behavior is not acceptable and until an effort/acknowledgment of that behavior is made, there is really no moving forward.

Can we .. for the sake of a mother, father, brother, sister, family.. put aside our expectations of a specific relationship and just have respect for someone who played a large role in who you are? Very big questions.. no easy answers, and different for each person..

Is that healed? Or is that acceptance, grit your teeth and bear it? I'll let someone treat me like bull hockey because I love them. Nevermind that they are not loving back and that I am a wreck when they leave. It's ok, because I love them. I did that, and I can't physically, or emotionally, take that abuse any longer.

Your shrink is right. I can't make my mother stop trashing me to my friends and family, I can only "pretend like she's dead, deal with it, or keep trying to change her".

I don't pretend like she's dead, or try to change her. Neither of those work. I want her to have a relationship with my DD, so I'm trying to figure out a way to do that without my DD being negatively impacted. I am dealing with it. But the way I'm dealing with it is to remove myself from the situation. I couldn't support her (financially or otherwise) while she trashed my DH in his own house, talked about my private issues to everyone under the sun and turned my relatives against me. That's not ok behavior if you're going to live in my house. She left, of her own accord, screaming and blaming me for her problems and the problems of the world and not telling me where she was going. I said she could stay, until she got another place. She was the one who made the decision to move out of state and away from her granddaughter. I didn't estrange myself from her until later, when I found out where she was a few days later and I found out from my ex that she had called him and told him viscious lies about me. Then I really didn't want to speak with her. Then, I found out a few months later that she had called my dad and told him the same sorts of lies. Also, my grandmother stopped speaking to me when my mother left. I've sent mail, and she's never replied, when before we had a good relationship. Coincidence? I don't think so.

It's really hard for me, because I don't think anyone really understands what is going on in my situation. When I ask other mothers here to consider the role they played in the relationship I get some really nasty responses, like children who estrange from their parents are all spoiled brats. It is seen as this is my responsibility as the child, to fix this problem that "I" created. What people don't understand is my mother is the child in this situation. When I wouldn't do what she wanted, she threw fits and left. This has been her cycle since I was a child, with more people than just me. I don't trust her and I'm angry with her.

By the way, she was destructive for my first marriage as well. My ex and I have spoken about her role in the downward spiral of our relationship and there's mom, all the way, telling me how awful he is, etc. And she told my DH all about my ex too, even things that I hadn't told him, which was not her place at all. I didn't see it then, I thought she was protecting me. But in actuality she was playing out her own agenda. Of course, now that we are not on speaking terms she calls my ex all the time and talks with him. He's perfect, and I'm a witch.

I don't think the onus is on me to heal this relationship. I would never presume that a person here is entirely responsible for making things right. It takes two, and there are so many intracacies that cannot ever be explained nor understood by others. I don't think any one person has the "power" to make things right again.

just based on my own experience.. I don't think we ever "heal" our relationships.. they become new relationships as we move forward..

Your mother sounds like she has her own issues and I am sorry you have to go through all that. With my own mother, it's not that bad.. I do love her and I realize she is not going to change, so I wouldn't have it any other way. I have however learned that I can now say NO loudly, and I do not let her make me feel guilty when I don't do what she wants. I used to not want to rock the boat by getting into it with her. Now, I just calmly and quietly tell her she is out of line.. seems to be working so far.

As for your comments about the nasty remarks.. yes, you have gotten some and I guess the only thing I can say is each situation is different. I don't think that the folks on this site are looking to consider roles.. I think that the people on this site .. like myself.. have gotten a punishment far worse than any role they played in a relationship falling apart. They are trying to deal with the pain of a child that you have loved and raised.. telling you that they are "done with you" with no real explanation. Unlike your situation.. you have tried to talk to your mother and you have told her what your expectations were and you have told her how she is behaving that is making you angry... but she doesn't hear you.

In the case of most of the people on this board, they haven't had that opportunity. I for one, would love to have a real discussion with my boys as to what it is that is bothering them.. that doesn't seem to be something they feel is important to them. That is what this group is about.. the pain that your child wants nothing to do with you and you have no idea why. I know you say that normal children don't do that.. but they do. It is everywhere .. I have talked to so many in terrible pain. I know from my own experience that it isn't my fault, I didn't DO anything and I would certainly be willing to own whatever they perceive I did if it makes sense.. but again.. they haven't given me that chance. I think that this particular group of people are trying to figure out if there are influences in society that make it ok for adult children to do this.
Frankly, this has nothing to do with your situation... I keep feeling like when I read your threads to and from people that you are not talking about the same thing. I know you are looking for links as we all are.. but I think your situation is different. You probably need to be estranged from your mother.. and as I said before, it sounds to me like your mother is not going to change. She probably doesn't even realize that she has the issues that she does.. therefore, how would she know she needed to change? funny, my mother often asks me why sometimes people dump her.. I don't have the heart to tell her the truth but I guess I should..

As for your DD .. it's hard.. you don't want to trash your mother to her, you don't want to have her have too much to do with your mother, but if there's anything to think about... I too would go thru periods of time that it was easy for me just not to talk to my mother... therefore, the boys weren't speaking to her, because i wasn't making sure they called her. Since we have always lived far away, it required alot for them to have a relationship with her since we didn't see her that often. Like I said.. I think what kills me is I taught them that if I was mad at my mother, I just didn't talk to her.. guess what.. seems like they are doing that right back to me and for a completely unknown reason.. they are doing it to her too..she had absolutely NOTHING to do with any of the stuff that has gone on here.. but they have dumped her as well.. she wasn't invited to the wedding either.. she was devastated.. I am an only child and these are her only grandsons..
yes.. I think the healing will have to come from them..
something to think about...

"That is what this group is about.. the pain that your child wants nothing to do with you and you have no idea why...I think that this particular group of people are trying to figure out if there are influences in society that make it ok for adult children to do this....Frankly, this has nothing to do with your situation..."

I don't know what to say to this, nor how to make it non-accusatory or inflammatory but I'm going to try.

My mother feels as the mothers on this thread feel. She has no idea why this has happened, and she's in a lot of pain, and she wants to know why I would do such a thing; to "punish" her beyond the scope of her abuse.

That's why I have been participating on this thread. But since I'm not a mother who is estranged, you feel this has nothing to do with my situation. Most everyone has stood by as I have been called names, told to leave in a very rude manner, and have had hurtful accusations/comments made about my life. The one who has said anything about this abuse has also been rudely and sarcastically criticised. It's glaringly evident the majority here think that behavior is acceptable in their group.

I have tried to be respectful while asking questions, clarifying my intentions at every turn and doing my best not to step on toes that are already bruised. As far as I can tell, reading back on the posts, I am the only poster who is discussing societal/upbringing issues. Everyone else is saying how hurt they are and how they don't understand how it happened. Just as my mother is. Which is, again, why I'm on this post, trying to discuss the different factors, the possibilities of what may have happened. I am not ashamed of my participation on this thread. And I appreciate the insight you all have given me regarding from where the estranged mothers are basing their opinions.

I hope all of you are able to reconcile with your children, and reestablish contact with your grandchildren. It is evident you are all in a lot of pain.

What I didn't say is that because you are not estranged you can't participate.. what I am saying is that you are definitely looking at the situation with a different perspective and while your questions are intelligent and valid, it's possible that you are not going to find the answers you want. Everyone's situation is different.. the interview that I did with Mark Sichel certainly points out some things that have happened over time.. basic rules of relationships and good behavior have been changed.. on both sides... not necessarily in a good way. He too was estranged from his parents, yet he is the first to say that most parents don't do anything wrong..very important.. WRONG in the sense that it deserves the kind of "punishment" that we are getting. He is very clear that no parent is perfect. I think you would be interested to hear what he says. Society and upbringing are a lot of the discussion.
I would hope that you would be less concerned about the wrongs of the past, but mostly how can you heal yourself, and your family in order to move forward. I beg you to understand this as I am living proof of what goes around comes around and I would hope that my example might help you avoid that with your children.

If you have any interest in this.. I have posted some clips of the interviews with Mark etc on You Tube, but I must have your email and you have to be a member and invited to view it.

You mention that the 'rules' of relationship have changed from one generation to the next. Mainly it seems like the rule that you must have contact no matter how well you get along, how that makes you feel and how you'd like to be treated by the other party...it seems like that rule no longer applies across the board the way it once did.

I am curious if anyone else here could describe the 'rules' of engaging in a parent to adult child relationship better...

Culturally do we have a set of rules?

By "culturally" do you mean American culture? There are so many sub-cultures/cultures of origin that I don't think there can be a set of governing rules here. I think in the past living was much more difficult and people needed their extended families just to survive. Children didn't have much of an option to follow in their families footsteps. Rarely would it be possible to move out of state, or out of the country. Now there is so much alternate choice out there, religion, sexual preference, professions, etc.

Each family has its own culture. Parents establish the relationship rules throughout the upbringing of their children. Adult children decide if they can live by those rules. If parents set up a pattern of giving money and then stop and say... this is the arbitrary line in the sand, I won't help you anymore, I think a person will feel ambushed because the rules have changed. If a parent allows a child to be self-centered and disrespectful through their childhood and then expect a respectful adult child they will be disappointed. Many parents control their children with money, wills, etc. The children play by their rules because they want the money. If there were no money, I doubt many children would play by such strict, one sided rules. Then the relationship dynamic would have to change to one of mutual non-monotary benefit. That kind of relationship is harder to create when children are older because it's built on years of consideration.

But I am in a very small opinion group on this forum because I don't believe that children disassociate for no reason at all. I think each case is individual and unique, but I think that if people were truly honest they could look back to how they contributed to the end result.

To answer your questions: You asked "When one of your children say terrible things to you or shows disrespect-do you take the accountability for their actions?"

When one of my children shows disrespect, yes, I do think I am accountable for their actions, just as a judge would hold me accountable for their actions were they do do something illegal. I do this while letting them know that I expect them to take responsibility for the choices they are making. Their choices have consequences. How I parent has consequences. You get out what you put in. Have you ever heard the term "garbage in, garbage out"?

"So is it hard for you knowing when your children have problems-at school-at home-with their friends-with life- to know it was your fault?"

It sounds as if you are confusing accoutability with culpability. Being accountable does not mean you are blameworthy.

"You must be very strong to carry this burden-are your children's teachers aware of this? I wouldn't think you would want them punished in any way for your mistakes."

My children's teachers are aware that I am accountable for the actions of my children, and our school district actually has us sign a statement acknowledging that agreement. The teachers are also accountable to me for the education and performance of my children in their classroom and sign to that effect. My daughter has to sign the same agreement accepting the fact that she is accountable. I don't want my children punished for my mistakes, that is true. It would be innappropriate to consider a child responsible for the actions of their parent.

Straycat, I agree that no one is totally "...in control of their children's lives-good or bad". I have not said, ever, that a parent is solely and utterly responsible for everything that has happened. Have you ever heard the phrase "it takes two to tango"? I don't see where you could be getting that I disagree that children should not make decisions on their own, and I'm actually rather disturbed that you jumped to such conclusions and then proceed with such vitriol. Could you please explain where you got that impression?

"Good Luck I'm sure they will grow up and you will be able to see "your best" in them."

Since we disagree so adamently on this subject I have avoided responding to your posts on other threads that personally attack me and are inflammatory. Inflammatory statements and personal attacks are two of the most common causes of conflict escalation. When people attack other people verbally, those attacked are likely to get especially defensive or angry-much more than they would have had their opponents kept their statements impersonal and focused on the problem.

Often interactions between parties with opposing views on highly contentious and emotional issues can be made less painful when the parties follow a series of ground rules outlining the principles of civil communication and debate. While this approach still permits the parties to address the difficult issues, it does so in a way which focuses upon substantive arguments rather than personal attacks.

As I said, my daughter is gay and she "came out" when she was 18. My husband and I were very accepting and remained accepting to the point of letting her move her girlfriend into our house 2 years later. We helped them buy a house in July of 2007 but 6 months later my daughter desided to break up with the girl. Because the market is so bad they are unable to sell the house. They have had to become roommates and stay in the house. I guess they are getting a long good now.

My daughter has always been what I call a crabby person. Everyone that knows her says the same thing. The crabbiness turned to major disrespect as a teenager and it got worse after she turned 18. It seems the only time she wants anything to do with me or her dad is when she needs something. (Imagine that!) So many of you have said the same thing here.

Back in May I desided to send her an email and let her know that I was not happy with the disrespect she has shown me and her dad. (I sent an email because I knew she would just hang up on me or walk out of my house if I had tried to just talk to her.) I also desided to mention the fact that she needs to clean up her appearance. (She dresses like a very sloppy guy) Her hair is usually cut shorter than a guys. When we are out in public I see how people look at her. I am very embarrassed by her appearance and I don't understand why she would want to make herself stick out in a crowd the way she does.

I tried to be as nice as I could but still get the point across to her that she is very disrespectful and that she needed to clean up her appearance but in her mind I was just being mean and hurtful and she didn't want to hear it. She sent me back an email saying she would have nothing to do with me if I was more concerned about her appearance and what others thought than I was of her feelings. She completely ignored 2/3 of the letter that talked about her disrespect of me and her dad. She just zeroed in on what she calls insulting of her appearance.

The past 6 months have been very hard. I never thought my own daughter would cut me out the way she has simply because she didn't like what I said. It's not like I was on her everyday about her appearance. In fact, I had been biting my tongue over the past few years hoping she would grow out of the style of dress.

I am hurting a lot and am glad to have this forum to vent. Is there anyone out there that is going through the same thing with their child?

In August of 2006 this son said to me one evening as we were just chatting about life, etc. "you know mom, I can't imagine ever being with a woman that wouldn't be able to get along with you." To which I replied "I can't imagine you ever being with a woman that I wouldn't want to get along with."

February 2007 - my son about to marry - slams the door on our relationship.

And NO - there was no fights, arguments, or name calling. There was unanswered calls and letters trying to find out what I had done and apologizing. There was even a face to face meeting where I begged for a second chance.
Which left my son abandoned on the side of the interstate because he didn't slam the door in my face "doesn't she know we don't want her (me) in our life?" and "I can't be with a man that will not stand up to his mother!"

So he called me up and said "we can never have a relationship again, stay away, do not call or write or try to see me again."

So reading these posts I just wanted to scream. Yes I and probably most of the moms on this site do feel somewhat responsible. I know I beat myself up for over a year, if I caused it then there was also hope I could fix it" Part of the healing for has been learning to let go of the responsibility and accepting I can't fix this.

Regardless of what I have done or not done does not warrant the grief and dispair I have endured this past 2 years. I just now am barely able to say his name outloud without crying. I need to find acceptance, understanding, and hope for the return of joy to my life with or without my son in it.

IMO - Criminals are given more consideration, they know their accuser, know what they are accused of, have the opportunity to be heard, and if found guilty are given a sentence and in some cases the opportunity to make amends.

I have tried to apologize to my daughter but she still won't call me or even write to me. This had been the first time I had ever spoke my mind about her appearance. I still feel her reaction to it is over the top. God knows she has insulted me many times but I sure haven't walked out of her life.

She tells our mutual friend that unless she changes I will never understand her. Well no...I will never understand why she thinks the way her appearance looks is good. The sad thing is that she is a very pretty girl. Very tall, blonde hair, blue eyes and had very long hair at one time. She is also very thin. She is beautiful when she lets her hair grow out and when she is dressed in closes that don't make her look like a thug.

It's almost as if since she "came out" she is now trying to say "I am gay hear me roar".

The fact that she is gay means a different path even for me. I will never have grandchildren, never plan a wedding, never have a son in law and all the other things that go along with having a straight daughter. I have accepted all of that and she knows that. I feel the least she could do for me is the one thing I asked and that is to clean up her appearance. She lives in another town about 10 miles away. I feel like if she cared about my feelings she would at least dress in a different manner when she knew she would be seeing me. Why is that too much to ask?

I mentioned in my first post that she is very disrespectful to me and my husband. I feel the appearance thing is just another way she is being disrespectful and unreasonable. She told me that the way I dressed her for the first 18 years of her life made her uncomfortable and she will never go back to feeling that way again even if it means not having a relationship with me. I dressed her the same way all the other girls were dressing. Jeans and whatever type of shirts, blouses or sweaters the other girls wore.

I've told her I am not asking her to wear dresses or even buy anything pink or lacy. I just wish she would buy clothes that fit her and she didn't have to hang on to her pants to keep them from falling down.

I still don't feel like I have done anything to warrant being cut of completely. My own mother did and said many things I didn't like over the years but I could no more imagine cutting her off than I could imagine being gay.

Thank goodness many places are changing their laws so that gays and lesbians can get married and in fact have children as well. So don't write all that off so easily. We celebrated a lesbian marriage in our family 3 years ago. They make a wonderful couple.

It seems you are more concerned over what other people think and her "embarassment of you" than you are for your daughter.

You didn't do anything wrong, and neither did your daughter. Hold your head up high and celebrate your daughter.

It is her time to find her identity and likely after many years of confusion and great anxiety. Uniforms(clothing) are in the beginning at least an important part of that.

Think of your daughter as trying to see where she fits in, who she is. Many people go through stages of dressing, whether it's baggy pants for boys, or ripped jeans, or punk hairdos. Eventually the majority grow out of it. Although I now dress very mainstream when I was in high school I dyed my blonde hair black and wore ripped clothes and combat boots. My parents were not happy (my mother said I looked like a ghoul) and my father helped me dye it but years later said he was really hoping if he didn't protest too much I wouldn't go further!! LOL!

Many people when they discover a new interest or new aspect of themselves go a bit overboard. People dive into hobbies and buy all the extras, to find a year or two later that they don't need all that "stuff" to be a hiker, or biker, or writer. Same with being gay, although I agree with Colleen that it's not a lifestyle choice. But in general, I think people sometimes get a little extreme before settling into their comfort zone.

Your daughter is beautiful, even with short hair and ugly clothes, because of the person she is inside. Let her know you cherish that person. Coming out is difficult. Let her know it's safe to be "her" with you. I think your acceptance of her is very important right now.

Not to get too political but unfortunately last week's election saw many changes to laws regarding gay marriage as well a adoption issues and none were for the better. It's sad that some people are so intolerant.

That said, my child is married to someone who seems to like others of the same sex. That I have no tolerance for, especially when my child is being made miserable because of the spouse's actions.

Spouse, when "found out", turned abusive and attempted to control those who spoke up to our child/sibling. Those who would not apologize to spouse for voicing such thoughts were cut off from the family and told they would never see their grandchildren/nieces/nephews again.

How awful for your child. One of my children went through a divorce due to their spouse cheating, but it must be even harder when they are interested in someone of their own sex. Your child you know does not have to cut "everyone off from seeing their grandchildren/nieces/nephews" you know. Your child has rights too. I hope they are able to in their heart and physically get away because I just can't see making a marriage work when one person is so far removed.
Good luck to you and your child, I hope they are able to move on with their life and heal.

Maybe you are right about it just being "clothes". I agree. I guess it was just all the disrespect we had from her over the years that made me mention the clothes to her too. And so since you say it is just "clothes" do you think it warranted her cutting me off completely? I don't, I think she is being very unreasonable and hurtful. I just don't understand how a child can cut their own mother off the way she has.

Colleen, My daughter has always felt like she doesn't belong where outsiders are concerned. If that is the way she has felt why would she want to make herself stick out the way she does? This is what has me so confused. Why not tone it down and still be gay? That is basically what I was trying to tell her in the first place.

With the holidays coming I am sure all of us here are going to be having a very hard time. At least for me it will be the first holiday season without my daughter. Any suggestions?

As for asking her roommate over, I can't. The roommate, that use to be the girlfriend, has told me that my daughter does not want her talking to me or coming to my house. So, the girl that I thought of as my daughter in law for the past 3 years has been told to have nothing to do with me.

Colleen, I noticed a few things you wrote in your last post and even the one before that that referenced things I supposedly said to my daughter. One being, "my daughter would be beautiful if" I never said that. I said my daughter IS beautiful. You are also the one that said "its only clothing".

I appreciate all of your comments but do not want words put into my mouth.

As for having to walk on eggshells around my daughter inorder to have a relationship with her, I would have to think twice about that. I had been walking on eggshells around her for so long just to keep the peace and let me tell you, it isn't enjoyable at all. All it took for my daughter is to hear one negative remark and she cuts me off with no warning. I hate to say it but I feel I am just dealing with a spoiled rotten adult child. I take full responsibility for that.

Part of me wants to go to my daughters house and just slap her, (I would never really do this and never have), the other part of me is so hurt all I want to do is cry.

Part of me just wants to sit back and let her come to me and the other part of me wants to keep trying to get her to talk to me in which case I risk pushing her away even more. This is a case of "damned if I do and damned if I don't. It seems the longer this goes on the madder I am getting too and I worry about that.

All I know for sure is this will never get resolved if both parties are not willing to sit down and talk and right now my daughter will not talk.

I agree with a lot of what both of you have said. Colleenoz, your last statement is confusing to me. You wrote,"As to walking on eggshells, only you can decide if you want to be right or if you want a relationship with your daughter." I fail to see where being right and walking on eggshells are the same thing. I don't want to have to feel like I am walking on eggshells with any relationship I have. I usually tend to steer clear of people that are so sensitive you have to watch every little thing you say and do.

Straycat, Do you realize we are talking about a 25 year old female that has been dressing in this manner for at least 7 years without any feedback from her mother until this past May? One negative comment from me is enough to cut me off? I have shown my daughter in so many other ways that I accept her, I simply don't see how a child can cut off a parent the way she has. I could never do that.

My daughter was 9 years old when my mother died. She lived with us and I was her sole caregiver. My daughter was 21 when my grandmother died, my daughters great grandmother. I was also her sole caregiver. I guess those experiences taught her nothing about love and respect for your parents.

Colleenoz, you aked me about the girlfriend and seeing if she could play mediator, that won't happen because she is going by my daughters wishes to not speak to me. You have to understand this girl is still in love with my daughter and would do anything to get back together with her.

Straycat, I do see through all the decoration and I still love my daughter. She just doesn't seem to love me.

For now I did want to respond to the last post by py-42. My mother used to make comments to me about my appearance. I found her comments deeply hurtful and it was one of many behaviors that I grew to resent and which added to an increasing and growing sense of alienation towards her. I recognized that her comments were about her and had nothing to do with me and I also felt it was about her need to control. The strong message she sent, whether it was her intent or not, was to say that she would offer her approval of me, only if I pleased her. In other words, in order to receive my mother love and affection I had to earn it by seeking her approval and allowing her to dictate my choices, instead of accepting me for who I am. It made being around her very uncomfortable and tense. Your situation may be different, however I would urge you to not voice your opinion about her appearance. I'm certain she hears your disapproval of her and feels rejection. I agree with the previous posters that she may be attempting to assert her independence and choose her own style as a way to claim her own life and make her own decisions and doing so is not a rejection of you. I'm certain she may feel that by making a negative comment about her appearance that you are trying to control her, and not respecting her choices.

In some of your other responses I hear loss, which I understand, but something else stood out to me as well when you made this comment, "At the same time I have heard, "it is your right and responsibility to let your daughter know when she is dressing inappropriate." And this comment, "Some say that it is my job to tell her."

It quite simply is none of their business and I would disregard the intrusive criticisms of people who in some way are suggesting that you are not doing your job as a mother if you don't let your daughter know how embarassed you are by her choice of clothing. Your relationship between you and your daughter is personal and it is up to the both of you what kind of relationship you have with each others.

I'm unlike you and am not of the opinion that clothes tell a lot about a person. I currently have opted to wear comfortable clothing, because of a chronic pain issue, which I'm certain others would feel very free to criticize as sloppy or not fashionable. And likewise, if they did resort to criticisms I would cut them out of my life as thoughtless, mean-spirited idiots who didn't merit my time or attention.

Ginny mentioned that maybe some of us may have some happy results to share; I would like to share mine. My daughter started to turn me away ten years ago, though it took me longer to admit it to myself or anyone. Finally I was completely left out of all family events while her father and his wife as well as her in-laws were always included. We had been very close until she was about 25 years olds and the rejection really affected my life in ways I could never explain , though I know many of you know. I may at some time share that part of the story.
I can say that one and a half years ago I moved back to the town where she lives and where we had lived together as I raised her. I have three grandchildren that I was determined to see. My granddaughter who is 8 years old new me and loved me so I had that which my daughter couldn't take away. My grandsons were another story since they came along when she started leaving me out of everything.
I started by going to my granddaugter's soccer game; she ran up and jumped in my arms and asked if she could come home with me. The boys came too and we immediately fell in love. They would know who was to blame if they were not allowed to see me so that's how it worked out. My daughter had to give in and now she seems to welcome me a bit and that's fine because I can only trust her a bit as well.
I spent last Christmas with my grandchildren in my home though My daughter and son-inlaw did not come over. This year my daughter and the entire family will be here; not on Christmas day but the day before Christmas Eve which is great with me. It doesn't have to be on Christmas Day. My husband is very worried that I will get hurt by her. He doesn't understand that I don't expect anything to be any different with her. I know she is the same person that pushed the person who gave her life out of her life with me doing everthing possible to be a part of her life. I came darn close to losing my mind over it.
The only thing I can say is that I'm proud of the way I feel. If I never show her anything if she wants to see what unconditional love looks like then she has an opportunity. If she doesn't and my guess is that she doen't. I really don't care, I have my those three kids in my life and I'm grateful for their love.
I will add that there was nothing abusive in our past just the hard cold fact that she decided to go where the money was. I now have the joy and gratfulness of having a good life in all areas and the best husband in the world.
I'll keep you posted and thanks to all of you for sharing. Merry Christmas
Maggie

You may not have a personal relationship with your daughter but if being with her kids is a gift she is giving you I think she must have a love for you and trust that you may not see between the two of you but that is certainly there. I would never leave my precious children with anyone I didn't trust and have a deep respect for. I believe she must have those for you.

I think she is giving you a look at her love for you by allowing you to be with her kids even if she can't manage a personal relationship with you herself.

I hope the holidays with your family are super. What a gift that you have all of them in your life and are near enough and welcome to share it.

May God bless all of you with increasing love for each other.

I haven't had time to read the threads on GW lately and haven't read this one in its entirety. But I did see your story and just was so happy to read it.

Wishing you and everyone good and happy holidays!
Ginny

Motherlode--Wow your son, my daughter and many other adult children don't think they owe us an explanation because IT"S OUR FAULT>>>RIGHT??? They are so self rightous..with a big chip on their shoulders. That chip will fall and hit the ground some day. We may not be here to see it. If I am, I certainly will let her grow up and pick herself up. I've been too supportive and got kicked for it/////right out of her so called life. I'm still in disbelief. She was my daughter and close "friend"...now nothing. It does hurt for all of us mothers. So sad. I'll always love and mss her...there's a gaping hole in my heart. My face and physical body is aging from the stress. I can't believe how many parents are going through this.
Peace, Happiness and good luck to all...May God Bless.

I recently learned something I had suspected about my daughter who has refused any communication with me now for over 3 years.

I knew that she had told her grandmother, aunts and uncles that she would no longer have anything to do with them if they should ever talk to me about her and her children, or, in her words "you will never see my children again if you talk to my mother". None of them have paid any attention to her, thankfully, and she does not seem any the wiser. They have even shared my daughter's photo Christmas cards with me so that I can "watch" the children grow and change.

I suspect that she told her father, my ex, the same thing as he claims to have no idea of what is going on in her life other than that she is very happy as is her entire family.

Well, this week I learned that things are not as her father claims. I learned that she has cut most ties with any of her friends who she believes might have any connection with me at all and that she has threatened other of her friends with "ex-communication" from her should they talk to me. I learned that she seems to be extremely unhappy but at the same time would never let it be known that her life is anything but perfect.

Fortunately or unfortunately, I do not believe that any of this is her idea; I believe it is all coming from her husband. He was having an affair and causing her misery and my sin was to bring this to her attention. Actually, she already knew it, but I gave it voice and for that I have been ostracized. She is not able to deal with his infidelity, she has ADD and is unprepared to support her children should she get divorced. In addition, her stepchildren are, for all intents and purposes, her bio children's full siblings as their father has physical custody and my daughter has raised them. Divorce would mean breaking the family in half; therefore, she is standing by her husband, even though she as much as admitted to me that she does not love him nor he her.

Hopefully, time will resolve the problem but I truly don't have much hope that this will ever resolve as long as she remains married to this man.

Fortunately, one of her stepchildren, with whom I had a very good relationship, will turn 18 in a few weeks and I will be able to contact her without interference. Should she choose to talk to me, it will be interesting to learn what they have been told about me.

Estranged Stories looks like it is doing well.

I don't post on public groups much about my own story any more because there is always the chance that my D will decide to lurk or, worse, decide to pretend that she is a stranger and play strange games that make sense to her but not to me. I see that someone using the unusual name that she has used previously as an alias has signed on to Estranged Stories. She may just be checking to see if I am posting. But I would rather not write posts under the circumstances. I do find it strange that she stalks me but doesn't want to have a relationship.

thanks for listening...raven

It doesn't cost anything to register or to participate. Hope you join.. lots of great people.

I guess I just needed to vent and this is a great place to do it! I love this young man so much...but I don't like him at all at this point! Does that make sense? It does indeed, break a Mothers heart! I do feel a ton of guilt...for seeing so much of his father in him that it scares me...and not having any more knowledege on how to fix it than I did with his dad! I don't suppose I can...nor could I right! At anyrate, I just keep on keeping on and hope and pray that one day my son will see the error of his ways! I would love that!

Our son was coming around, or so I thought. He stopped by, (kept his coat on) at Christmas for a few minutes to see his sisters. When he left we all gave him big hugs and it was reciprocated much to our surprise. He also came to 3 or 4 of his sisters basketball games and seemed to have a good time with them and us. A few weeks ago he came over to visit and stayed 4 hours, we had a wonderful time. He invited us over to his house to let our dogs play and so we could meet his newest dog. He left again with hugs. So last week it was my b-day and my husband invited him and his wife to meet us for lunch.
Then my husband got a terrible e-mail from him. He said he had let his guard down and that things were not ok. Just because he had been coming over didn't mean things were good and that we never liked his wife and he wasn't over that. Here we go again! All I can think it that maybe she was upset he was coming over and was giving him grief. I don't know. I had asked all the times we saw him, how she was. I got them a Christmas gift and put her name on it. Who knows...

I had stayed guarded, because of this site and hearing from so many of you that this had happened to you. They come back and everything seems ok, then out of the blue, they shut you out again. I am very sad. Even though it wasn't anything like our old relationship, at least we had some contact. Now nothing again. My friends say, at least he knows we were willing to accept him and we were loving to him, so hopefully he will come back sometime again. This is so hard.

I am sorry to hear what you are going thru with your son. I was astranged from my family and now from my daughters. There are so many factors that contribute to such a sad situation. I wish I had an answer for how to connect with your daughter in law and ease the relationship so you can see your son. But I don't how.

I was with my first husband (father of my daughters) for 13 MISERABLE years.

When we were newly married, I would spend my Saturdays with my sister we would clean both houses and shop for the cheapest in home necessities, toothpaste, soaps, etc. We enjoyed the time together inspite of the tasks we were responsibly taking care of. My H worked Saturdays so I was free. However, had you passed my home and over heard the fight that would ensue when he got home, you would certianly believe I was not simply shopping and certianly not with my SISTER! Before we did finally split I had a couple male friends calling for me and one eventually did become a romantic interest (after the split). He kindly handed the phone over or took messages!!! Completely unheard of when it came to my sister!!!

My sister was so much more of a threat to my relationship. Why? Because she was my only support system (I was raised by my g-mom and she had passed). She is the one that would have noted his bad behavior and hopefully help knock me out of my coma as well as help me get away. Clearly he knew she would always advocate for what was best for me.

My H was an abuser (I know you are shocked)! Abusers isolate their victims first. Ever see a lion pick off the gizelle in the middle of its own herd? No?! Cuz it doesn't happen.

I want a relationship with my daughters but first I need to find happiness with out them (who wants to be with someone that cries as much as I do) and I need to do more research on dealing with the abusers that clearly do not support the idea of us having a relationship. This isn't about you or maybe it is, if you obviously are willing to love and support your son no matter what, clearly something that doesn't need fixing :-).

MotherLode ~ Please do not respond to my post, I know about the other website and choose to post on this one. Respect my choice!

Take a look at this link the information is slowly leaking out regarding toxic relationships and kids are being encouraged to speak out when they see these relationships forming...

http://www.theredflagcampaign.org/

Wait I gotta crawl back into my tent, chew some tobaccy, you know in the trailer park I live in with my unemployed husband lacking in self esteem, whose dead mother plotted against mine.

You would just die if you actually saw or knew me. (banjos playing in the background)

Anyway, my health has been affected by it now. So, I basically have to give this up for a while. I love my kids always will. But, I just can't take this anymore. I guess, I just wait till they come to me? Problem is, I'm afraid that day will take a long, long time. I'm afraid, since my own parents disowned me, (for no good reason, except living with my now husband), and I not only lost them, but my siblings follow suit. (so as not to get them upset)...so, I guess, I'm afraid it's happening all over again.

naturewoman

It is true that my generation was raised with more love and attention than any previous generation of children. You have given us everything that you yearned to receive from your own parents. But can't it also be said that in the process of raising a generation the most adored children that you have become the generation the most clingy of parents that have ever been?

It seems to me that when your generation left your parents and started fending for yourselves in the world it was the natural course of events. However, when my generation tries to do the same thing, it is viewed as estrangement and we are selfish and cruel. Didn't your parents let you go at some point in your 20's and 30's? Were you given a mandatory schedules for visiting or calling?

The problem is.. what you are describing as "natural course of events".. NEVER included not talking, not answering, not responding.. basically disrespectful behavior. Yes, perhaps this generation needs to let go more easily and try to be more respectful of boundaries, but unlike prior generations, family and what it means to be part of one seems to be less important. So I guess you could say that the way that we have given more and adored more has created a generation that cares less.

go visit www.estrangedstories.ning.com .. lot's of good thoughts both for people like you and people like your parents.. sometimes it's good to hear both sides..

As to, "NEVER included not talking, not answering, not responding.. basically disrespectful behavior." This behavior is also known as distancing and is generally used as a coping mechanism towards parents and others who impose, control and manipulate (basically emotionally destructive and disrespectful behaviors) to get their needs met. Some people feel that their parent's destructive behaviors and their ignoring and dismissing their feelings leaves them no other choice. It's very sad that they may feel that they have to resort to extremes to allow them to have their own life and to cope with their parent's destructive behaviors, especially in the face of such denial.

I wonder if such parent's would just feel better knowning that in trying to control everyone and get their way that this behavior breeds unhappiness. Do they just stick their heads in the sand and deny this reality? Do they realize that they are imposing a life sentence of insincerity and false, unhappy and phony relationships just to get their own way and keep up the illusion of happier relationships?

What is all the clinginess about anyway? What issues does this hide?

I don't agree and think you are making a huge assumption and generalization when you state that "but unlike prior generations, family and what it means to be part of one seems to be less important." I don't think anyone who makes the choice to distance themselves or estrange themselves makes this decision lightly. They leave their families because maybe the interactions are very unhealthy for them. Why should they sacrafice themselves and their lives to please you?

"So I guess you could say that the way that we have given more and adored more has created a generation that cares less." If you've given them the training to behave like self-absorbed narcissists, such as everything is all about them, then yes they probably care less. Then again, if you've made everything all about your needs, the logical response would be to want to get away from you and to distance you. "Caring less," however is another sweeping generalization which doesn't fit for all circumstances.

Estrangement issues have been around a long time. Control and manipulative behaviors tends to wreak havoc on relationships. It's disrespectful and unloving. Literature is full of stories like this and as organic beachgirl says, one can read examples of such relationships back in the Bible and ancient times.

These are older threads with not much activity. I've included a link below to a website which I think may be of help.

I'd urge to check it out as it is more current. It is listed below.

I'm sorry to hear of your troubles. These posts here are not very active and so are very slow.

It sounds like you need emotional support and if that is the case I've included a link below to a website which I think may be of help.

I'd urge to check it out as it is more current. It deals with the problems and estrangement that you've written about. Anyway, the link to the website is listed below.

Best of luck to you with these issues.