I don't believe I can change much here, she is ten. I have taken a chance to make her say thank you, after we get home and she wants a shirt I bought for her from the bags, I have said well, I don't know, did you say thank you for buy ing me a shirt when it's not even my birthday, I musta missed it. I am being funny, not scolding. She will say it but she hates the reminder, and perhaps it is wrong. SO does any one have an idea. I am very consistant at saying please and thank you to her because I believe this is going to give her grief in school and when she is company at someones home. That's all I know to do at this point. I don't want to get to where I dont do any thing for her, that's not fun. But I need her to show she is aware someone gave their time and their money, just to please her and she should feel good about it. I don't think she ever thinks of that. She is just busy thinking of what she wants to do next..

Any tips, Im no miss manners but I myself feel embarrassed when she neglects to use these two little words that are so important.

thanks

laurilye

Like make a sandwich, something simple, and then she might feel the need to be thanked.

Unless that need is made clear to her, how would she know ?

Other than that, I think you just have to enforce it by saying "say thankyou", even if she is a bit peeved. Eventually it will become habit.

This is usually done when the child is little, maybe she missed out on that manners lesson, when she was little.

You sound like you are doing a good job with her, what a nice person you are.

All the best to you.

POPI

I find that when we have a quiet moment together, over a lunch or snack usually, that I can gently probe her mind a tad to get an understanding of what she is thinking on a deeper level. I would tell her that I am 'just curious' and was wondering if she liked what I was doing for, or buying, for her. The most likely answer will be 'yes'. Then I would say 'how come you don't say thank you when someone does something nice to you?' The most likely answer will be 'I don't know' (probably, as someone else suggested, she just hasn't been taught). And then I would say, well that's alright but some people might feel badly if you don't thank them......you might hurt their feelings....it's best to be polite and show appreciation to others. And then, I'd quickly change the subject and move foward in our time together.

This approach gives me insight as to how she is thinking and feeling, and it helps to gently instruct her on good behavior.

Good luck.

Bottom line - I suspect this girl probably HAS been taught to say "Please" and "Thank You" but is choosing not to for reasons of her own. Whether it's simple lack of caring, an absence of empathy, defiant opposition, or something more complex, I can't say. But I do think something more is going on -- much more.

There's something about your descriptions of her behavior that frankly, scare me at some deep inner level. I'm just getting the sense that she's not emotionally attached correctly. That if she's sweet and charming and helpful, it's for her own manipulative reasons. That she ignores your household rules because she doesn't care *at all* about your rules or your feelings about her. I'm trying really hard not to say the word 'psycopath' -- but I'm sorry -- that's what springs to mind.

You're a saavy parent Laurilye. If it were a simple problem, you wouldn't be having trouble solving it...

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/step/msg0704585916932.html

I teach children with special needs and this girl sounds like some of the students i have. Some of the symptoms sound like Oppositional Defiant Disorder or Emotional Impairment. I would take her to a psychologist for examination. If it is nothing serious she would still benefit from psychological intervention. Now if her school does not express any concerns they would not pay for evaluation but you can take her to a private psychologist.

Now of course her mom has to do it not you. But I wonder if you can give a hint that this is more than just being a bit difficult.

as for the please and thank you, like n.l. said, just tell her what the rules are in your house - over and over again, without emotion. if you find yourself getting angry say, "i am getting angry about this." just say whatever is on your mind usihg "i" messages and please don't think of her as defective.

what are her heinous crimes against humanity?

remember: kids are just little animals trying to get their needs met.

I'm not suggesting locking her up -- but I do think she needs an evaluation by a trained professional, and probably more help than even a really good 'concerned sorta-grandma' can provide.

How nice to have advice, I tell ya, My kids are grown, and I am really rusty at this stuff. I have got so much comfort from this help.

To Sweeby, I can't get away with nothin, lol very observant of you. Thank you for the time you have taken here. And, I am starting to believe that, yes there is something a bit off, when a child is told the permission has to be recieved for the computer, but only for supervision, not to say no, and 5 minutes later, she sneaks again, and we have another talk, and the next 5 days are all the same. That is just amazing. The places she goes are all pg healthy disney type sites, so that's not the incentive. I have to say I am wondering if just being defiant isn't the jolly she is looking for. And if you look at just this disobediance, and not the rest maybe its normal, but I would have never pushed an adult several times a day, day after day, and it's important to point out, I am NOT a comfortable auntie she has known all her life, I am a new person in her life. That concerns me because of the problems she will have if she is like this with teachers and other parents. And it appears she is. So I think , like you probably do,Two or three talks is alot, but maybe normal. This was was 9 or 10, To put me in a place to do that, must have been some of the power she was after, I just don't know, but It will never happen again. Trying not to rock the boat, left my about to sink the ship i think.
Don't laugh, but I honestly believe she purposely didn't let the dog out so I would have to clean the carpet from urine for a week back in the beginning.. She was sitting 3 feet from the door, where her dog peed, and it was the third time that morning, So I reminded her every half hour. I didnt make the lunch she requested, and she was a bit peeved about it. I had told her mother I felt she should clean these oversites, because we have all been clear she is responsible for letting her dog out. But mamma quickly said no, she would clean it when she got home from work. I knew right then, I may be heading for a real power trip.
Plus, I believe she got this fairy tale notion, that at my house, she would be a princess, with control of the days, and that I would not be like another adult/parent figure. From what I have read, 10 year olds didnt know they didn't necessarily have to mind, just a few months ago, and so defying is a bit of an experiment, that we have to endure till they get sick of consequences, they may pay a price, but they need to learn it the hard way, just in case you are not going to follow thru, so I imagine, when I was telling her to pick up her shoes, close the door, no wet towels on the rug please, she was disappointed. And a bit angry too.
Just when she is an age where she is finding adult commands tiring, she gets another bossy adult to deal with. Of course, thats just too bad, but I do think this has a hand in her difficult moods.

And no, she is not a monster. No one thinks that here I am sure, I certainly don't either. But she has learned manipulation, and she has come to rely on it too heavily.

I have talked to her mother, she tries to get her way with me by implying her mom cant do anything for her because she works all the time. With her her mother it's that I am not attentive and wont do any thing with her, sorta the same. So the next time she is working one of us against the other,to get what she wants, (and yes it is normal, but it is running rampant in this house) Mom and are are casually are going to talk to each other right then, in front of her. There will be no fireworks, just state what was said, and then of course deny there is any truth to it, she will see the consequence. We will go on about our day, not punishing for he lie, for the time being, and I hope; in time, she will stop, because it just doesnt work. Sounds reasonable to me, and watch next week Ill be writting how I screwed that up too lol

Your advice to be firm but always kind opened my eyes, I was not being firm often enough, she was so tough, and I had told her so many time, that by then time I got firm, being kind was beyond me. I tried not to look mad, but I was mad and that always shows.

Seek, I do not by any stretch think this little girl is a phychopath. I think that she was in a place in her world, where at some point this manipulation was all that worked for her. I think things are better now, but she has made such good use of it she doesnt see any reason to give it up. But she spends so much effort and energy at it, she isnt thriving in any other areas, She has too much to keep straight, and too many people to keep from talking to one another. Her school performance last year was pathetic, with f's even. It's not easy to get an f in the 4th grade. I think that this is just something kids all have to learn, but she has had too few adults in her life to have it backfire before BUT, I am grateful to have you say she sounds normal, You have no idea. I dont have a clue either way to be honest, but it give me hope. And it lets me see, that maybe I am too concerned about a few things, I have let go of a little because of your words. I pick up shoes and various other things as often as I tell her to do it, that was a battle I didnt need. So thanks. Because it has been good for us,

LINDAC: You are right on the money, with this thank you thing. I have noticed her mother isnt' setting the world on fire with this social grace either, but there's a twist I cant ignore, mom is deaf in one ear, and I think this has played a role, I have repeated myself to her, and when she hears me, she is graciously appreciative, most of the time. But I have realized that when I thought she heard me and choose to say nothing when a thank you was the standard response, she in fact did not. I have watched her with my son, and i c its something to take into consideration, and it makes me all the more determined because I see that it wasnt modeled for fair reason, and so Ill do it now.

And Please Know that your compliment on my parenting, was surprisingly emotional, and extremely comforting. So much so, that my eyes welled up and I had realize that failing at this is part of my frustration. Which is not productive at all. I have to accept this is part of the angst too, I feel like I am failing to get along with a ten year old, and it feels crappy, so doing the normal parenting, "what do you say" has not come automatically, I didnt see that until I read your post, and I am grateful. So confidently and relentlessly, I am going to irritate the hell out of her the way I did my own boys. thank you!

BEENTHERE I have actually done what you suggest, and I suspect someone has beat me to this technique, and wore it out, she considers any talking, no matter how hard I try to make it light and easy, as a lecture, and gets snotty for the rest of the day, tho this worked well on my boys, its like blowing in an ashtray with her. Even the praise, she sees right thru. I have had it work, if it was praise for something I had not corrected her on, shes a tough cookie. But she is improving here this last week, and I am hopeful it may be a real change for us all. thanks for the help.

To the rest of you, speaking of rules, Ya caught me.

It's amazing the way you all nailed me on so much. I have been a wuss about house rules, big time, and I knew it.

Seeing it in print made me furious with myself, but thank you. It is my responsibility to state my rules, to keep trouble from popping up, and I was an idiot for being reluctant. I wonder if I can buy a set of balls on ebay, I need some. lol

To all of you, I can't seem to make my point with out writting a book the size of "gone with the wind." I actually edit and cut things down, tho I know that is hard to believe. I am sorry. You all have taken so much time and careful consideration,to evaluate my situation,and advise me, because you obviously care to give helpful advice, (and probably because I need it so badly he he) and I am just impressed, surprised, thankful, and most importantly to you, I bet, I have more self confidence in my handling her, and feel sure that my choices are fair, and respect us both. And I am not blowing smoke, Honestly, every post here helped me in ways that I could see happening , and that's big stuff.

I really lost it for a while there. I am embarrassed to admit I was downright depressed and hated getting up to face another day. I had no idea what to do. Having someone to vent to and get my head straight was a god send. I had to thank you all.

My next post is going to be something like what's your favorite cookie to make with the kids, or what word do you have for Fart or penis. lol I wont be near as needy to get the answers so the thanks i give will be short and sweet i promisel

And penis was dinkerdink at our house, In fact I am afraid that became a word in our family's dysfunctional dictionary that stuck to this day. :o)

Thanks all
Your amazing

laurilye