I’ve even ripped up some of her photos, because I’m so furious with her. A couple of weeks ago, when she came to pick up her sister for their usual weekend get-togethers, she started on about this wonderful job, she’d just landed, and that she will be getting more money than the one, she’s just left, and how her boyfriend had also landed another job, before leaving his partnership to start with another firm, where he will be earning $140,000 per year – brag, brag, brag. She was so excited about it, and went on and on for a long time – the most she’s bothered to say to us for a very long time, and nothing about how we were going – selfish, as always. She’s said nothing to us since, and as usual, doesn’t bother to ask how we’re going. If there’s nothing to say about herself, then she doesn’t ask about us. I just shake my head in disbelief, how utterly selfish she is. I even sent her an e-mail, at the beginning of the week, where I asked her a question but she didn’t bother to answer it. Just another way of ignoring me – it just never ends.

"I am actually going to a psychologist next week, just so that I can learn some skills on how to best cope with all the crap, mind games, conniving, sneaky and devious things she does."

It's good that you've sought counseling for this as it will help you to cope and also learn about your own part in this dynamic. I've been there. Hopefully they will provide you with good books to read. I would start reading about manipulation.

"There seems to be a very common thread with all these postings - adult children, that have come from (in most cases) normal upbringings, had most things given to them, including money, but have still turned out to be unappreciative, nasty adults."

Well, yes that is part of the problem. Yes, a lot of children who have been given too much learn to mistreat others, especially people who have never had to take responsibility for their poor choices as mommy and daddy were always there to fix things. As a result their expectations of others is unrealistic and unreasonable. They think the world owes them. Sadly, they will go out into the world and expect others to cater to their needs just as mommy and daddy took care of them and taught them what to expect from others. They will eventually mistreat their friends, coworkers and others. They may not behave this way initially, but eventually will mistreat others when they don't get their way.

"Has it ever occurred to any of you, that all these problems are a direct result of all the adults (kids) having a mental disorder, more over, they are all NARCISSISTS!!"

Yes, it is narcissism and it is on the rise. I've dealt with it in my own family, although in reverse--my parents, sisters and especially my in-laws and sister-in-law. It is always all about them.

"That's what all Narcissistic people do - push you until you think you are the crazy one, or everything that has gone wrong in their life, is your fault, never theirs."

Yes, this is how they behave and they never take responsibility for their actions. Someone will always make excuses for them and they will exclaim, "I didn't intend too." One will never hear a heartfelt, sincere apology. At times they may sound sincere, but they will tell you to get over it and accuse you of being unforgiving. Then they will continue to act and behave as they always have and learned. Why? Because it works and there are others who will always make excuses for their behaviors.

"Both myself, and her father have bent over backwards-giving her everything she wanted (that's probably where all the problems began,) but she has shown absolutely no appreciation, at all."

Yes, this is correct people do not act grateful nor do they appreciate when everything has been handed to them. It will not matter how much you try to tell them what you had to sacrifice. You will need to learn to stand up for yourself and to set boundaries and limits on her behaviors.

I wish you good luck with this issue...

I do agree with some of the comments about them being spoiled, having a lot of things without earning them, selling out to the highest bidding parent.

In any case. It seems as though in their short yrs on earth - in comparison to those of their parents - they have all the answers. All the reasons. All the justifications.

I do understand the devastation divorce brings upon our children's lives. I also know how it destroys a lot of people in the family structure. I also know that we do our best as parents and sometimes it is not enough and get blamed, hated and mistreated by the very children we so love.
Every time I said "Oh, my kids would never do that" they made a fool of me and did "JUST THAT". Being a fool is not something I care as much about as being hurt for no damned reason.

Oh I am sure we can pick any damned thing I ever said to make me look like a failure. But I never deserved being hated and ignored and despised as I am.

I birthed them. I loved them. I taught them so many things. I supported their games. No I am not entitled to love just for those things, my point is that I did them from a place of bonding, a place of love. Those times were supposed to bring us together and teach both sides to have patience and love. NO we did not always say and do the right things and I ALWAYS apologized and called attn to my failings. They took that and ran.

At 45 I cannot believe I have lost my kids to my ex who has tons of money. I am poor. I have no insurance. No money. I have a degree but stayed home to raise kids as per my ex insistence. I opened a business and employers now really dont consider it worthy of experience no matter how you market yourself.

The economy slashed many of us - notably single moms who stayed at home. With the loss of a spouse, home, medical care and now my own children - I find it hard to care about myself. I feel like I was used as a vessel to donate my two children to my idiot ex and his barren wife. I did the hard work while he was out loving building his high powered career.

I sit alone day in and out - keep trying to keep on. They say you have your kids when things are bad. I sure don't.

No support. NO money for therapist. No nothing. Just me. Alone. Broke. And yes. This is pitiful. I hate myself now because my ex and my children hate me. I believe I am worthless now because of how badly they have treated me.

I am not a drinker or drug user. I dont sleep around. I finally agree with them by saying I am not worth anything based on their actions. If I were worth it, this would never have happened. NEVER. The pain keeps me in tears almost 24 7. I am severely depressed. I have panic attacks now. I feel so alone.

Can someone relate?

No one is worthless. Their actions are THEIRS not yours, and it does not mean you have no value. Look at your self with fresh eyes instead of dwelling on the past. If you were a stranger looking at you what would you see. Take a pencil and paper and list all your good points, not from your prospective but from that strangers. Get yourself out of the place you are in and do something and be with other people.

Start with small steps.Evaluate your skills. What can you do in your community to help other people. Often helping others is a way to help yourself.

Know that you are not responsible for the way things turned out. You tried your best and that's all any one of us can do.

My sister was in the same boat a long time ago. She was the one who took care of the kids and house. Her husband was almost nonexistant. He had the affair--he moved his lover into a house they had bought as an investment property. When it came to the split the kids sided with their dad and blamed my sister for the divorse.

Many years later she has her kids back and a good life. She did keep the lines of communication open and let them know she was there and would welcome them back, no questions asked. It wasn't easy but it got results.

But don't allow these people (your ex and his new wife), to DEFINE you. You have worth, you have value.

Do not allow this to happen....rise up, and see yourself as God sees you; as worthy, as decent, and of great value.

NEVER let someone else define you!

If your children are not interested in you - others will be. You can volunteer at a shelter, or someplace where there are kids, that will ease the lonliness...perhaps working in a daycare center.

You have much to give - don't give in to despair!

"The pain keeps me in tears almost 24 7. I am severely depressed. I have panic attacks now. I feel so alone."

"Can someone relate".

Yes. I've often felt very alone and have also suffered severe depression.

If you cannot afford to see a therapist, I wonder if you can see a doctor? Depression can be treated and I would urge you to seek treatment. Is there anyone else that you could trust, such as a good friend or even a member of the clergy that you could talk too about your situation? They may be able to help you problem-solve to find some solutions.

Also exercise can do wonders for you physically. It will help your mood and is good at clearing out the cobwebs so to speak.

I agree with the other two posters with the exception of helping others. I think you need to take care of yourself first, before you can help others. It sounds like you are in no condition to try to help others, and in fact, it may be the wrong choice for you in your emotional/mental state. Allow yourself time to do what you need to feel better about you.

"If I were worth it, this would never have happened. NEVER."

This is untrue. Self-examination is always beneficial, however beating yourself up is counter-productive. The first thing you need to do is see a doctor or get help for the depression. What you said above is the type of thinking that depressed people often say and feel. You do need help, so I would urge you to seek it.

Another good resource is NAMI, which you can look up online. There may be an organization in your area. Clinical depression, which it sounds like you may have is considered a type of mental illness. It's biological and can be treated. Please do that for yourself. You deserve to help yourself.

Good luck to you...

I blame it on the bad advise us parents got in the 1980's to "build our children's self-esteem! Well, now we are paying for it! There is proof now that this advice has backfired! Studies are proving this! Good grief!

Hang in there fellow parents with estranged kids, hopefully by the time they reach their 30's life will have kicked some sense into them!

All you can do is to respect his process and however long he needs and it takes for him to work through his feelings. If you push or become indignant at his process you will risk further alienating him. I don't believe that narcissists generally outgrow their glaring deficiencies and self-absorbed natures.

I'm curious how you know what he discusses with his therapist as client/patient/therapist discussions are personal and confidential. If the therapist revealed these discussions, etc., that would be not only unethical and unprofessional but also a violation of privacy. If he told you this himself, then I wonder why he would feel compelled to share that information with you.

It is my understanding that narcissism is on the rise. I'd also heard that baby boomers were considered the "me generation" and seen by their parents as a selfish generation. It wouldn't be a surprise if selfish people also raised narcissists as well.

There's a huge difference between the concept of developing self-esteem as opposed to creating a narcissist--people with an inflated opinion of themselves and lacking in any empathy towards others.

I'm not overly optimisstic about the furture of narcissists emotionally maturing. Narcissism is classified as a character disorder and generally speaking people who exhibit narcissism generally do not outgrow a character disorder. That sucks for everyone who has to deal with these people, not just their parents, but for anyone who happens to unfortunately be involved with them socially--acquaintances, co-workers, etc., basically anyone who gets in their way gets sucked into their path of emotional destruction.

A future of self-absorbed, thoughtless, manipulative whiners with entitlement issues doesn't bode well for our culture. It's a depressing thought...

Ruth, everything for which you wrote resonated so clearly in my head and everyone else the same with your commentary also.

My daughter is 22 yrs. old now and we were once so close in spirit, our thought patterns, our taste of clothing, music, books etc...that almost everyone who knew us called us the 'Gilmore Girls' because that's precisely who we reminded everyone of. Not now, not anymore.

I raised my daughter all by myself having left my ex husband and divorced his psychotic ass when she was only 14 mos. old. He was never a father never has been; I used to include and he never will be a father but with the way my life's going concerning the estrangment between my daughter and I the chances are he'll probably end up becoming her best friend (insert sarcasm here) because my life has non ending drama...I could flag a ship to Timbuktu and I'd still end up with drama. Oh and of course because I did everything and the louse ex never ever even paid child support until I went after him only 3 yrs. ago it would be my downfall for my only child to suddenly want him in her life...she never did. I do not have any respect for any parent who chooses to use their child or children as a weapon. My daughter made it clear since I left and she was mature enough to make her own decision that she wanted him out of her life. Here's the thing, I was a wonderful Mom and still am. I refuse to allow my 22 yr. old to manipulate me into thinking that I was how she put it "adequate".....how insulting.

All I know is our last correspondence was via email and she ripped me apart with such verbally abusive daggers of hate that I'm still perplexed as to why? I know why, she's in her final year of University and not only do I have to contend with her condescending and volatile 'me me me' attitude I also know that her professor's are GOD to her and that's pretty amusing considering the fact that she's an athiest. I'm a very intelligent woman, no I don't have doctrines nor degrees lining my walls as I don't need or require accolades to make me feel good about myself however my daughter's whole world exists upon discussions pertaining to 'theories' and 'theory' and my gosh it's like her Papa my Dad said to me to make me feel better about this rotten situation when I told him there's absolutly no conversing with her anymore, he stated quite bluntly "You don't talk to my granddaughter, you LISTEN to her!"

My family was being very supportive but the preface for me hitting this forum is because my own Mom who is a senior is playing my daughter and I against one another and my daughter is playing my Mom against me.

Apparently I'm uneducated with no brain in my daughter's mind and Ruth when you stated I say black and she says white along with the comment about your child acting as if they are the parent, boy could I relate to you and that!!! I raised my daughter to be a hard working, honest and caring lady, I was home 24/7 throughout her youth, I would not leave her alone like other drugged out partying crappy parents who's children became latch key kids, fed themselves, took care of themselves etc......I never went out until she turned 16/17 and that's a given. I never ever left her with any care providers other than my own parents who by the way did not assist in cutting me their own daughter a break by taking her once in a while, rather once in a blue moon and a very long one at that.

I was that Mom who went that extra millions of miles to do things for her child, like staying awake after having worked a 14 hr. day at times (I was a property mgr/super/my work was home thus not requiring daycare which would have helped regardless), and creating holiday gift packs for her classes from JK straight through to grade 7...all holidays; I designed her halloween costumes and one of the nasty things she said to me in that final email was about making them. Oh my gosh, she's verbally abrupt, she knows everthing (or so she thinks at 22), she's corrected my own parents who are a helluva lot wiser than all of us. She's put words into my mouth, misconstrued everything I have said and the worst part is she's lying about so many moments between us and she is BELIEVING those lies and thus pathological tendencies come to mind and it scares the bejesus out of me simply because my ex was mentally ill and I can't control heredity, nor DNA nor our gene structure; I am not looking for a convenient scapegoat to explain how cruel and vicious my only child has become to me but I do know the older she gets the more traits she shares with my ex husband. Okay you guys I'm open for suggestion 'cause I have so much building up inside of me I want to crawl up into a tiny ball and blow away at times...but I won't I'm far too strong for that! What gives with the youth of today? Yes we were no different in how we treated out parents when their age, but there is one huge difference it was called rebellion and generally hit at 15....these young 'adults' are truly living in their own little Me Me Me Land.

I just read your post now I thought I caught them all but most likely missed a few. You are NOT worthless and you are indeed very special; you are a human being like the rest of us and please don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise. I'm almost in the same boat, I married a really messed up guy, I did my best to persevere...there's oh so much involved but I must keep some particular upsetting moments private of course but what I'm trying to get at is my daughter when a wee one, a toddler's age remembers seeing his violence, his anger. I did not program her, nor would I ever. Let me get to the point, she's most likely decided via the charming internet to find him in the USA, we're in Canada and what kills me and hurts to the core is I did everything and he did nothing.

He wasn't in the picture for 22 yrs. I sit here now with my 22 yr. old who HATES me too but communicates with my sister who I do not have a relationship with 'never have', my Mom and Dad and my relatives..but not me anymore since last year.

You are a priceless jewel carrieanna never ever forget that. My Mom and Dad always said the hardest job in the world guaranteed is being a parent however the most difficult job on top of that is being a single parent. We nuture, we provide, we NEVER sleep, we always cook and clean and we never have money to purchase a cheap lipstick for ourselves but somehow we always managed to come up with the hundreds and/or thousands required for our child. Parenthood at times seems like a non ending cruel joke no different than the battle of the sexes and how odd woman are, think and feel as compared to men.

This is precisely how they want you to feel as you realize within this forum there is a huge human condition lacking as of late in society and that is EMPATHY depleted from our children's souls.

We can all continue on supporting one another which is a good thing but the reality of it all is to realize until your child or children have their own...and it's the god's honest truth...until they pop a baby out of their own body or if you have a son his wife or mate does so...they will never ever 'get it'....everything to them will always remain the Mom's fault 'especially over the Dad's'.

Always remember carrieanna that in order to feel good again you have to learn to love, like and respect yourself because if you don't maintain and/or hold those qualities within yourself you can't give them to anyone else...therefore your family who is treating you like a non entity obviously don't hold those feelings within themselves which is why it can't be given.

Integrity is the first thing hurtful people play upon destroying in someone and yes this includes so called 'loved' ones....the only person in this big blue marble who can build up your integrity is you, always remember it is now your time to put you FIRST...something I can guarantee you and everyone else in here including myself have never done.

Please remember, I can't see you and don't know you but I truly care when I hear a fellow Mom saying that she wants to give up...we've all said that and you are far too priceless to feel that way. Remember you are a Queen and deserve to be treated as such...don't let those imbedded with ignorance and hate take you down that horrible path, rise above them all and prove them all wrong and one day should they 'come back' (by the way I'm sick of hearing that from everyone) it'll be your choice as to whether or not you will make room for them in your world. Hope this helps....life is far to precious to ever let it go.

"Today is the first day of the rest of your life"

Start anew, carpe diem......sieze the day!

I don't have any suggestions other than maybe asking if you have ever thought about seeking the help of a qualified professional counselor? I believe it can be very helpful, but you need to find someone who is qualified. I often wonder why it is that people balk or get angry and resentful at the suggestion, since it seems like it would be a proactive and healthy decision to make. What I find instead is that they more often will make excuses or sound resentful at spending the time or the money. I don't understand this behavior other than it reflects an unwillingings or fear on their part.

The reason I suggest counseling is that feeling angry, confused, hurt, etc., will and does create a lot of internal conflict and unhappiness and that can spread to others, whether it is intented or not. I see the negative consequences of people refusing to seek help, yet constantly trying to seek it from inappropriate people and sources. I see what stubborness does to their relationships. I believe you have far more to lose by not considering counseling. Although it is good to have a safe place to vent, sometimes it is inappropriate to who and how you decide to vent. The hurt and anger that you describe has a way of negatively impacting other relationships, both professional and personal and not in a healthy way. People often seek their friends and relatives and even co-workers to provide them with emotional support, but I feel it often an unwise decision to burden friends with too much of your personal life and issues. I mean no disrespect when I say this to you either--it is meant as a well-intentioned observation. Our friends and family cannot and maybe should not be our therapists, and we definitely should not burden our co-workers. I'm not suggesting that you do this either, but I do recognize how often people that I've been acquainted with, and many who are complete strangers have overwhelmed me with their issues, anger and troubles. And so often those emotional demands have unintended negative repercussions to others. I don't believe that we ought to burden our relationships with those demands as it is non-productive.

I say this as I've often felt, despite being a "nice person" overwhelmed constantly by others seeking my understanding, support and empathy. And most people tell me that I'm empathetic, non-judgemental and supportive. All too often, needy people, don't ever stop to consider the burden they are placing on others around them. I have placed many boundaries on people to stop, but the self-absorbed and needy tend to ignore boundaries.

As to your daughter and problems...you mentioned that your ex has mental health issues. I'm uncertain what that means to you as you don't define specifically what you think he has, but I wonder if you have sought help, such as seeking help and support through NAMI (National Organization for the Mentally Ill). I would urge you to do so, especially if you may feel that your daughter has inherited a genetic predisposition towards mental illness.

Your daughter's desire to get to know her biological father is natural, despite his being an absent presence in her life. It would be natural for her to desire her relatives even if they were not a part of her early, young life.

You state, "...concerning the estrangment between my daughter and I the chances are he'll probably end up becoming her best friend (insert sarcasm here) because my life has non ending drama...I could flag a ship to Timbuktu and I'd still end up with drama."

I don't know what the drama in your life is/was, however part of your daughter's anger towards you could be due to her being exposed to the non-ending drama of your life. Drama in one's life creates chaos and inconsistency which isn't healthy for children and developing adults. I am not judging you and I do not know what you mean by drama. My observation is meant to offer you another viewpoint as to why your daughter may harbor anger issues towards you for the chaotic life and existence that your choices created for her. That may or may not make sense to you, but always remember that you were the adult and she was the child.

I agree with some of your observations in your last post. I also sincerely hope that you will consider counseling, if it is available to you, because going it alone given your circumstances is a very difficult thing to do. We all need emotional support, yet it is wise to seek it from appropriate sources and I believe many people don't consider this.

I wish the best of luck with these issues...

Wow! Not really what I expected in supportive online help, but thanks for your response. I do not need to seek any counselling and/or help and find it interesting how the very first time I log on to this website I'm being told to seek help, or rather your suggesting it? Yet other Moms (many of us) in the same boat discussing here in this forum specifically how our adult children have suddenly turned their lives into 'it's all about their existance now' and forget Mom and Dad or how much we're intentionally hurt by them~our kids, I'm one who should get professional help for this? I can't control my adult daughter who's begun to treat me like pure garbage for no other reason than 'the age' she's at....and now I'm pretty much insulted by your response.

I do not need professional help to discuss this issue and/or matter...I needed other Moms who are in the same boat.

Have a lovely day,

I'm more depressed about this now than ever with your feedback, anyone else who sees this I'm open for discussion as flowergardenmuse truly didn't hear and/or read my posts clearly.

Thank you for the link; I'm a nice person and didn't mean for my comment back to flowergardenmuse to seem crass but the advice provided by this person was not worthy of my commenting any further, wow...to be judged and directed towards a therapist is really an unjust and unfair response when there's thousands of us Moms going through these changes with our grown children. I do not expect people to agree with me but to give someone the benefit of the doubt without throwing or tossing in the shrink card would have been more suitable.

I appreciate your response have a wonderful day.

Thanks. No it wasn't meant in a judgemental way. Responses like that is generally why I tend to stay clear of offering any comments. I think she's moved on anyway. I question if they are seeking solutions anyway, since the focus seems more on blame. Enabling behaviors often masquerade as emotional support anyway--it's hard to look at yourself. I think it feels better to have people soothe our feelings and agree with us, rather than to challenge our perceptions of situations and even the way we may contribute.

Most people I know who eventually decide to seek counseling or therapy generally report that it was helpful.

It reminds me of a saying, "Better the demon you know, than the demon you don't."

I hear you loud and clear. I raised my 2 kids by myself with no financial, physical or emotional support from their father. Not only that, I chose to be single and not to date so that my kids would not have to feel what so many stepchildren have felt. He moved away to North Carolina when they were very small. My kids are now 18 and 15. The 18 yr. old has decided to live with his father and his live-in girlfriend and her 3 small kids. My son has posted on his Facebook about what a horrible mother I was and that I spoiled him and he was fed with a "silver spoon." I'm very hurt and confused, as I thought I was a great mom. I took them camping and fishing. I took them to Disneyland several times. I took them to Yellowstone. We ate out, we went to plays, we went to movies. I tried so hard to give them not only things, but love and understanding. I loved my kids so very, very much and still do. I was very involved with my children. I sacrificed my life for my kids. I too cry myself to sleep most nights. I'm so lost and depressed and lonely. I feel betrayed.

"I am 68yrs. old,have two daughters 42and 48.Have experienced everything that you have written.Have in the last 20 yrs. 3 contacts with one and 1 with # 2 child."

Sorry to hear of your estrangment with your daughters.

I believe the value our society places on men and women is a different issue and although important in its own right has little to do with the real reasons for estrangement.

"A man will stand up for another man actions, even if he doesn't know him. Most women,will rarley stand up for another woman."

While this observation has merits and actually has been written about, I don't see this as relating to the reasons for family estrangements.

"How can we expect our children to treat us with respect and dignity when the rules are not in our favor."

Children learn through role models and I believe if you demonstrate respect to them and towards others that they in turn will learn how people who respect others behave within relationships. They will learn not only what respect means, but will also learn to value it in their own relationships with others. And while it is true that children grow up, not all adult children will become estranged from their parent or parents. What is true is that the parent-child relationship changes and one must learn to adapt. What is also true is if the communication is poor to begin with or if the relationship feels one-sided, then that will factor into the estrangement.

"It is not what you have done so wrong,or even right for that matter.It is unless you are doing something that has value to the children 'NOW' you are indifferent in their world."

This is not true. Meaningful relationships are built and cultivated over time. People tend to value people and relationships when they feel that they are valued, heard and loved. People who behave with indifference towards others probably felt that others treated them with indifference as well. People do not grow up in a vacuum. They learn about relationships from their role models, in other words their parents. That is common sense, not blame.

"You take 'Love' out of everything and since no value is given at the time, they were entitled to to all that you did for them."

Part of being a parent is being responsible for the child that you created. Yes, parenting can be hard work and it's too bad that prior to becoming a parent people don't hear how difficult parenting can be. It also has rewards.

"It's not all their fault and definitely not yours.You did the best you could do at the time with what you had vailable to you."

No one is assigning blame. Self-introspection however is a good thing. It helps people to heal and to grow. If you made mistakes own them. It's never to late to try to mend broken relationships.

"You would not be on this site if you did not have a heart and been a good parent.You havev't read ,I beat and didn't feed my child , I don't know why their acting this way."

Most people do not confess to child abuse. It's rare to find people who take responsibility for child abuse, even when it is evident.

"Now the process is to once again reinvent yourself using all the knowelege you have gained and yes ,the pain . This time ,recognize your value and be very aware . Plan what you want to do without having to consider what everyone else wants you to do first. The freedom is OUTSTANDING."

Reinvent yourself by moving forward to a new chapter and role in your life. You can still be a parent, but you can learn to adapt and change to a newer role and one that may be more beneficial to your adult children. Think of it as renegotiating your role to the present instead of the past. If you can integrate the two you may be a much happier person--much better for you and for your relationships.

"They have shown and told you the past is done for them."

Perhaps they just need their parents to adapt to their new roles--it doesn't have to make you feel less of a person or a parent. All children grow up and parent's need to let them.

I've read many of the posts on this site & can relate to many of them. I cry every single day, if only for a few moments. I feel I've said everything possible for me to say. Frankly, I really don't know why he told me "I'm dead to you". In Jan or Feb, it will have been 1 year.

I've searched my heart, my head & soul for the cause(s). I've asked myself many questions, hoping for an answer & solution.

His Father & I divorced when this particular son was approximately 12. I know for fact this his Father has bad-mouthed me ever since, but gosh, that son is now 36. His Father has been remarried for years & had a child with that wife. Even my ex's Mother asked when he's going to forgive me...like I've had nothing to forgive him for. She has no idea what I went through because I never thought it appropriate to tell her "those" things.

Just a side note to that: both of my ex-daughters-in-law tell me everything. I cry for that, as well.

So, can anyone help me stop crying? I wonder if I will be mourning forever. How can it be that it's going on 1 yr. w/o my older son.

Fiona writes about mourning too. It is a common, natural feeling whether it is an adult child who initiated the estrangement with a parent or vice versa.

Here is another site written by a daughter who is estranged from her mother which may be helpful too.

Last but not least here is another site which may or may not be helpful about estrangements.

This site offers related links to estragements--family, books, articles, etc.

You're welcome. It's nice to hear and have someone express appreciation, even if it is just thanks. It's something I seldom hear.

One thing--estrangements tend to be unique to families and the given circumstances and situations surrounding the estrangements. I think it important though to get clear on your own emotions and feelings first.

I don't know whether you've read many of these posts and responses above, but I'm tending towards not responding, or less and less. The reason why is some of the angry responses. On another thread someone also responded with a more open-minded and gracious response as well. One of the angry responses above was because I inquired whether a mother above had considered seeking professional counseling.

For what it is worth counseling is a personal choice/decision and most people I know who eventually decide to go that route generally report that it was helpful, others resent the time, effort, money, etc. I suppose it depends on what you are seeking and what your ultimate goal is and what you are willing to "emotionally" give/not give, etc. and that is something only you can decide.

For me counseling was far more helpful given my set of circumstances and that is sometimes why I ask people if they have considered it. It's not meant in a judgemental way as one of the mother's above interpreted it as. It is more of an observation/suggestion in the sense of, if you want to talk, you might also consider talking to someone who has professional training in talking about relationship issues, not as a way to change YOU to accommodate your son/daughter, or whoever, but as a way of clarifying your own feelings and working out what would be for you the best way of coping with the feelings engendered by the estrangement. A good therapist enables his/her clients to find their own solutions. Other mothers in the same boat may offer support, but are unlikely to offer solutions for the simple reason that if they had solutions they wouldn't be in the same boat.

Of course that is your choice and decision.

Anyway, I appreciated your thanking me as that is as I said previously seldom given or heard. I hope those resources will help you. I think the first link I provided, Fiona McColl sounds like the best bet as she is a clinical therapist and researcher. I've read some of what she has posted and found it helpful.

I wish the best.

I have a sister I do not want a relationship with. Even though I care about her, I do not want to be around her. Her very presence is a criticism. She thinks she will be the only one of us in heaven and we are going to die because we won't take her nutritional advice. LOL

I met a woman who's boys do not want to be around her and she doesn't know why. After going to lunch with her a couple of times, I knew why. She hates all Muslims, Buddhism and no telling how many other religions. They are all wrong except hers. She nags her boys for not being more into her beliefs. It's her main topic for conversations. She called me 3 or 4 times one day involving me in her problems and I flat told her she needed help, Islam, Buddhism and other religions were none of her business and she was losing her sons over it. Needless to say she stopped calling me.

Another woman I know boasts about her wonderful relationship with her girls, loving unconditionally. She has one daughter that is a responsible adult who doesn't fit into the situation except to say she is a little tired of her family right now. Two others I wouldn't even speak to if it weren't for the Mom's feelings. Their problem includes a son in law raping a daughter, a daughter who abuse her son and raised all of her children in absolute filth and now expects the family to support her while she sits on her b***. The raped daughter married and never looked back and the family can't figure out why.

As far as my situation with my boys goes, I could have a relationship with them except for a couple of "minor" problems. One son would want a relationship with me if I would just "share the wealth".....until I was broke. Then the relationship would be over. Or when I get sick and can't take care of myself, him and his wife would step in, get custody and keep me in their home...until the money ran out. I feared that until I appointed a lawyer as my POA and explained the situation to him. The other son fathered 3 very sweet innocent babies who he would not take care of when the mother wouldn't. One day she threw a baby across the room because it wouldn't stop crying. Luckily my son caught it. They ended up in foster care until the other grandmother got custody. I never see my sons and I wish we were a loving family but we are not. I have accepted that have gotten on with my life. When I think of them it is of the sweet little boys they were many years ago.

I've posted a link below to an excellent site which deals with estrangements. I hope it helps.

I have known "Rebecca" all of her life. Her mother has micromanaged her to the point of tears. When she was still living at home her mother kept her extremely busy with school, soccer, music, dance lessons, etc. She never had any free time except when she went to visit her dad.

Rebecca used to like cucumbers but her tastes changed as she got older. One time we went to lunch and Rebecca wanted to order a sandwich without cucumber. Her mother gave her to riot act for not wanting cucumber when she had 'always liked it before'. I told her mother that people's tastes change and that she was going to inflict an eating disorder on the kid if she didn't back off a little and let her start choosing a few things she liked before she turned 18. Or at least when we were dining out. The kid was grateful I spoke up.

She is such a smart kid that she scored in the 94th percentile in the SATS and is attending college on a scholarship. Even when she comes home to visit, her mother always has something for her to do even if she is only staying a day or so. Clean the cat boxes, entire kitchen and other housekeeping chores while mom goes out clubbing, even though mom already employs a housekeeping service. You'd think mom would want to spend time with her daughter when she visits instead of putting her to work.

I don't get why the mother does this with the one daughter but not the other. It amazes me that this daughter bothers to come home to visit at all.

Now the mother is complaining that she never hears from her even though they speak at least once a week.

I like Rebecca's mother but can see how kids can become estranged.

My husband and I live in a large city. We have, for years, been very close with my sister and her husband, who live a 1-hour flight (but 7-hour car ride) away in a suburb where I grew up (so my parents and some friends still live there). Over the past 10 years, we have visited them in their town 20 times, whereas they have visited us in the city exactly twice (and complained mightily both times). This has long been a sore spot, which reached a head on my 40th birthday. My husband tried to arrange a surprise for me, a visit from my sister and her husband. They are less financially well-off than we are, so he was going to help them out with the cost of the flights, meals, etc. (as we have always done, even when visiting them). However, my sister was in the process of opening a business at the time (with a partner) and refused to come up even for ONE night. I was, of course, extremely upset -- all these years we have made the effort to visit them, and yet they have made the effort only twice (and complained like crazy both times), and couldn't even be bothered when it was a big occasion like a 40th b-day. It wasn't really about a birthday, of course -- it's just that this final snub was the straw that broke the camel's back. Also, I understand she was busy with her business opening, but it's not like my birthday snuck up on her.

Long story short, when I told my sister how my feelings were hurt by this (not by the birthday snub, but by the years-long pattern of refusing to visit us -- while thinking nothing of visiting their other friends in other distant towns, and expecting us to always come to them), she responded with everything from how often my OTHER friends come to visit us in the city to how I "ruin" Christmas every year when I come into town, because we stay at a hotel to avoid putting anyone out (apparently this is viewed as thinking that we're "too good" to stay at anyone's house) and because we spend a few hours on Xmas morning with my best friend -- something I've done since high school. She said that their other friends greet them with pizza and have driveways, whereas we live in the city (so no driveway) and always try to get them to go out & spend money (we live in a large, exciting city -- of course you'd want to go out!), so that's why they visit their other friends but not us. The entire back-and-forth never addressed the initial hurt feelings but instead involved my sister using a "deflection" tactic -- "Oh yeah, well what about YOU?!" She also mentioned how the few times we have travelled together have been miserable for them and a real "sacrifice," since they didn't really have the money, but only went on the trip to shut us up.

We have not spoken in months now. I have spoken to her husband, who has admitted that they have not visited as often as they should and that they are in the wrong and that he is willing to work on making the relationship more reciprocal. But my sister has never acknowledged that the number of visits, and the amount of effort we each put into the relationship, has been so lopsided. She has now turned this entire thing around on me, saying that HER feelings are hurt because I was so selfish as to think she could take a night off from her business planning to visit me. I have been made out to be the bad guy, accused of everything from ruining Christmas to "hating" our parents to "hating" her dogs (one of them attacked me and I asked that it be kept away from me). I don't know, maybe I AM the bad guy. What say you all?

All parents make mistakes, because we humans are fallible. And we are flawed, all except narcissists. The Germans call narcissism a social virus (hence the epidemic), the French call it mal du si�cle.
Simone de Beauvoir said in her famous book the Second Sex that, in puberty the female has two choices: side with the male and support his interests, or rebel against patriarchy and risk opprobrium. I agree with your worldview and share it: my daughters entered puberty during a vicious backlash against feminism in the '80's. They switched sides and began emulating macho behaviour.

Their dad died tragically when they were 7 & 5. Ours was an egalitarian, reciprocal-loving relationship without gender roles. He was the most empathetic man, no, person I had ever met. We shared all but one core value. Even though I was grief-stricken, I did my utmost for our kids, but at night I would cry my eyes out.

I suppose I overcompensated by becoming even more lenient than before his death. In puberty, the older one converted me to religion - by creating hell at home: slamming doors, shouting, treating me as dirt. At school she behaved very well, but at home ..... More than 25 years after the tragedy, they accused me of grieving too long. They would hear me crying and that was the reason why they couldn't grieve! I was speechless. They could have come downstairs to ask me to stop. I thought they were asleep! (2 floors up!)

Up to puberty, they were great kids: helpful, cooperative, kind, loving, did well at school. They were sociable and our house was like a railway station. That was one of my biggest mistakes.
Psychologists, intent on bashing parents claim that children imitate parents whenever they engage in negative behaviours. One exception: Dr Joshua Coleman. Youtube him.
Children Do Not imitate parents, for better or worse: they imitate their peers! There is a brilliant study, called The Nurture Assumption, written by Judith Rich Harris. Publicly, my daughters are charming, communicative, sociable and very popular: they have plenty of friends, good life-style, but they behave like monsters in the shade, when there are no other witnesses around. I am not two-faced, but direct, even blunt in my social interractions. They had good education, with degrees, but behave like neanderthal males towards me. They hate feminism with a passion, because none of their friends has any sympathy for it. You respect your children's privacy, then discover they were taking drugs in their rooms. Yeuck! I don't take mind-altering drugs, but psychologists would no doubt still blame me for it, as well as anything else. I know someone who has 5 children but none of them had ever taken any drugs. He said he considers himself lucky. He is right. If his children had the same friends as mine, they might have given in to their peer pressure.

My husband and I had had authoritarian upbringing: we were (too?) liberal with ours. I blame myself even though I am aware of the enormous influence of the peer pressure. In the local over 60's club, I feel alienated because I am the only feminist with left-wing leanings. In other words still young enough to feel the peer pressure, but I am resisting. We came to this quite salubrious area because of "good" schools. Yes, they produce academically successful children, but not nice people. All my life I have been "fighting" patriarchy but my daughters turned out the most oppressive people I had ever met. I can't fight my child.
I can only speculate how they would behave if their dad were still alive. I suspect they would consider him "weak" too. Interestingly, bullies do not attack us because of our weaknesses, despite their claims; they attack us for our strengths. If they were boys, I would have been strict or been ideologically prepared, hence not very disappointed, but as a feminist mother, I feel betrayed, because they are the same gender. I told them that I have no problem with their rejection of feminism, only with their cold, cruel and callous attitudes towards me as their mother.
There is another problem: once we communicate to our grown children that we feel disappointed in them, they not only stop trying but seem to go in the direction of making the situation worse. I wish I could have hidden my displeasure.

I felt that the best thing to do was to let him be himself and thought things would moderate as he move deeper into hic career as a Police Officer. He met a young woman that seemed nice, almost too nice through a christian dating site and they began a relationship. Almost immediately after meeting her, things began to occur that at the time didn't seem odd to me but they do now. For example they traveled halfway across the country to see her Father on Father's Day. When this happened the Friday they left she came to be and said how sorry she was about "taking" him away during Father's Day that she just didn't realize the trip would coincide with the day. I accepted that.

Several months later they announced that they were getting married. I thought it would be at least a year down the road but to my surprise it was six weeks down the road during Christmas week. I asked why so soon and he said they wanted to be together and they would not sleep together until they were married so they were doing this so quickly so they could be together. I was floored but let them be. He found an apartment and moved out. During this time he stopped calling and would text sparingly. I kept asking what happened and all I got was "we're busy".

We attended the wedding which was strange to say the least. They wanted no involvement from us whatsoever. Even though we stayed in the same hotel we never saw them. He claims they were just busy but they spent all of the time seeing her friends and family. I was terribly hurt. I wanted to see and talk with him before he got married and I never had that opportunity.

I wrote him a long e-mail that took him three weeks to answer asking what happened? When he replied there was no answer as to that question.

Fast forwarding about 4 months later I sent him an e-mail message regarding an important letter that had arrived at our house for him. He hadn't come by the the house since the day he moved several months earlier. In that e-mail I said I could scan the letter and e-mail it to him if he liked. He responded with a terse, "don't open my mail" and "there are laws against opening mail that isn't yours".

After an exchange between the two of us in which I asked him again to tell me what happened to cause him to stay away he replied " this will be the last you hear from me for a very long time". I was floored. My final response to that was "don't you think you owe me an explanation as to why things are as they are"? "How can I fix this if I don't know what the problem is?" "If the time comes that you change your mind I will be here".

This happened three months ago. I am so lost and have lost so many nights of sleep. I just can't seem to get beyond this. We were so close for the first 28 years of his life. I can't imagine that he doesn't miss me, we had so many good times together. I have called, texted and e-mailed him but he doesn't reply to anything. I realize that in order to maintain my sanity I have to walk away but I just don't know how to. I really miss him.

Thank you all for listening.

Parents need to be more child oriented. Everyone thinks they are...but do you really put your child first?

Do you think about their feelings, what they are going through, how it is to start your life with your judgemental family talking sh*t about your spouse?

You had your time, your job now is to give your child everything they need to be successful in life. Children need support and unconditional UNCONDITIONAL non judgemental support to function properly.

If you have been giving this to your child, their needs would be met, they would not be estranged from the family.

Something clearly has gone wrong, and blaming the child when you are supposed to be the WISE ADULT is immature and selfish and probably exactly what got you in this situation in the first place.

No, parents do not need to be more child oriented. Parents are far too child oriented nowadays as it is. This results in their raising a generation of children who grow up believing that they and their needs will always come first, and they go out into the world as entitled adults who are in for a world of hurt when they find out that the rest of the world doesn't give a fig about them.

Children do not need unconditional non judgemental support. If they are never told where they are making mistakes they will never get the chance to improve. Unconditional non judgemental support makes children mediocre and encourages them to do the minimum to get by instead of aiming for excellence.

Let me guess, your parents don't like your partner.

The way you reacted so rigidly without even considering what I said, the way you immediately acted condescendingly toward me as if my words meant nothing....THAT is exactly what I am talking about. You are right! Always!! Am I right?

If your are having trouble in your family, I think your children might have difficulty talking to you when you are so stuck thinking you are the center of the universe.

It is amazing to me that what you all say about your children, seems to be the exact way that you are behaving.

The way you reacted to me makes me think that you did not spend much time actually listening to your child.

It is always so easy to blame others, so hard to look at yourselves. If you keep pointing the finger, you won't notice the three pointing back at you.

From an article passed on here:

"Other parents are so defensive and bitter and morally outraged that you feel protective of the child who had to grow up in the home where those feelings were played out. Many parents want their estranged child to see the situation from their perspective, but haven�t done the hard work of seeing it from the child�s. Some parents who did real damage to their children believe that if they just keep denying it, that their child may one day forget that it ever happened, much in the way that they have suppressed it themselves."

Again I asked you to attempt to see a different point of view and you just insult me and pretend it is me that cannot see outside myself.

I am honestly trying to help you here. I am not your kid, but I see the exact same patterns in the parents here. Everyone says they just can't understand what happened, then when someone makes a suggestion, the parent gets angry and insulted that anyone would even suggest they did anything wrong. 'How Dare You'

So many parents blaming the spouse, blaming selfishness...when apparently the apple didn't fall from the tree because they are so selfish they can only see their child in relation to themselves. They have no ability to see their child as a separate entity with needs that might be different than the parents.

One parent even said they would rather their child were dead, because they would have closure!

How selfish could a parent possibly me? It's all about ME ME ME!!!

Now do you see?

No matter what you tell yourself, if you really want to heal your relationship you need to get honest. Most parents here don't want to heal anything however. They just want to complain and have people feel sorry for them.

I wish my parents wanted to fix this. That is all I am waiting for. I cannot continue to be treated the way I was. I only seek an acknowledgement of wrong doings, perhaps an apology but at the very least I want them to stop what they are doing to my family.

But I have the feeling they are stuck just like you. Nothing will ever be fixed because it's all my fault.

I told my parents what was wrong, they denied they were treating me badly. What am I supposed to do, just keep putting up with it?

When my grandmother died she left me money, they kept it. They gave it to my brothers but kept mine. I love and respect my parents, never said anything bad, just accepted it and thought they would eventually change as that was incredibly rude. That was just the beginning of my disillusionment with my parents. WHO in their right minds would do that to a child and expect them to not have feelings? But I tried to bury my feelings and keep going but it didn't end there. They lied to everyone in the family. I heard all kinds of absurd stories about how controlling my husband is. Relatives told me they thought he was some old crazy guy from the stories, were quite surprised after having met him. After complaining that I wasn't married, I got married had kids...now 18 years later...they are still waiting for the day we divorce. They would rather they were right than my family stay intact and happy. They never once thought about how their rude treatment might affect my children! It is so incredibly selfish it is infuriating. I want to have a relationship but they have made it impossible. I cannot allow their mean behavior make my Children feel lesser than. They need a bad guy in their lives, but my Children are more important to me than meeting their needs. My job now is to take care of my children, not do everything I can to please my parents. They still believe my job is to do what they want, or they will hold a grudge and my inheritance given to me by my grandmother and now my uncle as well. I imagine they are now like the parents on this board, thinking the children are damaged as well so will give my inheritance given to me by my grandma to some charity and somehow justify it in their mind.

Through all of this, I have never said one bad word to my children about my parents. I say nice things only. I would never want to taint my parents reputation in their eyes, I would never want to make them look bad. I want them to love their grandparents and I have this hope that someday we will fix this, so the kids really don't need to know.

And the saddest part is in all these years, they just haven't even attempted to understand. It would be really easy too. Denial is very powerful. I always thought that they loved me so much, they would do anything for me. I thought they loved their grandchildren so much, they would do anything for them. I was wrong. Their preconceptions and judgements are more important than me. It is devastating, truly.

I think about it every day, ask God to help me understand what I should do to fix this...but I just cannot fix it alone. It also occurs to me as I struggle with this every day, they don't think about it all. They told themselves it wasn't their fault and moved on. I am a sensitive person who has been damaged irreparably.

PLEASE I'm Begging you- Do not just react and insult me.

I am genuinely asking for advice here....

On these boards, your biggest issue is taking your problems and extrapolating them to a "one size fits all" belief. To quote you, you have made your posts all about ME ME ME!! Because your parents are controlling and belittling, you harangue all the other parents of estranged children here and tell them the fault is all theirs. As a sensitive person who feels insulted by the other posters here, can you not see how insulting you have been to them? Fault is not always one way. Sometimes the children _are_ wrong. Sometimes fault is on both sides.

Yes, your parents are wrong to keep your inheritance. It was not just incredibly rude, it was incredibly illegal. You can either take them to court if you feel it's worth it, or forget about it and move on. Clearly after 18 years it is unlikely they will change, especially if, as you say, they don't feel they are wrong, so all you can do is put up with it or move them out of your life. If they bad mouth you, tough. The people who really care about you will see the truth and if they don't, they don't really care about you. In any case if you're not around them you won't be hearing it anyway.

You are on one side of a belief chasm, and your parents on the other. From what you say I don't think this is fixable, at least not without willingness on both parts, which you say there isn't. Your only choices are to put up with it or to cut it out altogether.

I must say you are right with the one size fits all attacks. I am sorry. I just read so many threads where parents were complaining, and the few people who gave the child perspective were attacked...I just reacted.

I am really sorry if I have insulted anyone with my preconceptions.

I really do want help, and am hoping that if we can discuss this openly, maybe we can all help each other see something new.

"If they bad mouth you, tough. The people who really care about you will see the truth and if they don't, they don't really care about you"

This is what is so painful. I am shy. My Mom is the center of the family. As long as I can remember my mom told jokes about me, making fun of me, for conversation. When I had a boyfriend in high school, all the jokes were making fun of him. This is how I know it is not about my current husband. Some people just need a bad guy.

I was just a child, how was I supposed to overcome the constant negative publicity about me?

I asked my oldest brother to help me. I asked if he would like to be treated this way to which he said no. He said if he thought it would help he would try, but it won't so why bother.

Everyone is afraid to get in trouble, so they allow the bully to pick on me.

This isn't currently fixable because they feel they have done nothing wrong. The only way to fix it is for me to say 'I'm sorry' that after putting up with rude unjustifiable behavior for 20 years, after finding it was making me ill to the point I had to make this choice, I am supposed to be sorry I couldn't take it anymore.

If I apologize, I will be treated even more rudely for doing that to them! It's all about them. Things would continue exactly as they were, and I don't have the luxury of seeing how it will affect me psychologically. I am already struggling as it is, and what provoked the final cutoff is that I just about died. I told them it was making me ill and they said 'no, it's not'. When my son asked me if I was going to die, that is when I decided that my children are where my focus needs to be and I can no longer give any emotional energy to them.

I went into a deep denial until the death of my uncle and now for the last two years I cannot get it off of mind. My uncle left my children money( I think my parents got him to cut me off) and they have not informed me about this at all. This of course stirred up memories. I don't think families are supposed to end like this. I know my uncle is speaking to me from beyond the grave, he wants me to fix this, but I cannot for the life of me figure out what to do.

I'm sure this sounds crazy but thank you for listening.

I particularly appreciate you giving me the time since I came across so rude and aggressive initially. Please forgive me.

If you are being bullied and everyone else goes along with the bullying, standing up for yourself in a polite but assertive way may work, especially with the bystanders, but the only sure way you can break the dynamic is to detach yourself from the group and leave them to it. Eventually they will pick another scapegoat.

I know they are your parents, but if they weren't, would you choose to be around these toxic people? I would hope not.

Resolving this kind of conflict unless both parties are in agreement just won't happen. It's like the Middle East or Ireland. The situation there will take generations to fix and you don't have generations, dear. You could keep bashing your head against the brick wall but it will feel so good when you stop.

In your shoes I would just keep away from the toxic people and the drama. If the inheritance was worth pursuing (ie most of it wouldn't be used up in legal costs) I'd go after it legally, otherwise mentally write it off and pretend it never happened. If your parents are as you described them, you're never going to get it anyway.

I have walked away. I do not want my 28 and 30 year old adult children back. Am I heartless? No, they don't deserve me.
If they could learn to value and respect me, then perhaps one day, I will welcome them back but for now, I am walking away so that I can recover from the pain, rejection, loss, confusion, grief and sadness that I never knew it was possible to inflict on a loving, devoted, self sacrificing parent. Yes, like you, I have done my best. I don't regret this, I feel glad that my children only ever knew love, warmth, nurturing and safety but I totally agree with the author of this thread, I fear for society when adult children can turn into such mercenary, selfish and cruel people. We come from a generation where we would never have treated our parents in the same way. Somehow, something very toxic has permeated this generation, I agree, I feel certain that most of it can be attributed to the attitude of entitlement but I think society in general has evolved into a self obsessed, self absorbed, self praising culture inspired by TV and the current trend of idolising the lifestyle of celebrities.

What I would say to everyone on here, including needhelp77, who is presenting a view from a different angle, is to go and get help if you can. I did. I didn't need help in the sense I needed psychoanalysing, but I did need help to cope and understand not to mention processing the grief because it does feel like a bereavement.

Once you've decided to end the pain, walk away, whatever, it doesn't make you a bad parent. You must only see this action as a means to survive an extremely unfair and difficult situation. This will allow you to reconnect with your own sense of battered self esteem and through this, you can start to develop some strength. From a position of strength, you can then start to handle things much better. For a start you move from a position of need to one of stability in your own thinking. You start to grow respect and value for yourself. When you're at this point, you can then make a clear decision, do you want them back or do you want to take time out for you, years even, until they can treat you with the respect you deserve. It may never happen, the damage might be too great on both sides. But, by taking back control and power, it will help you master your own emotions and help you to set much stronger boundaries. It is their loss but let them discover this for themselves. You look after YOU! You owe them nothing. Your life is yours now so please find a way to create happiness. It's hard, Lord knows, it's harder than anything I've ever gone through, but find the strength not to be bitter. Move away, cut off contact, stop the pain and start again. It will take strength and courage but once the pain stops and they begin to fade out of memory and sight, you really will start to see amazing progress in your own attitude and progress. In some ways, I think this is a kind of sad destiny for us as a society. While some people have nothing, others don't appreciate anything. Maybe we all have something to learn. Thankyou for letting me share my thoughts. Hugs to you all. xxx

Sorry to hear of your situation. If you are so inclined I would run a search on estrangement and you may find other sites that deal with this issue. Specifically, I found a good one that has many different helpful articles and it is called E-Stranged. The articles are written by a therapist and her name is Fiona McCall. I've found them very helpful, more so than many of the other sites dealing with the same issues.

Best of luck to you.

There were a few years BEFORE this that were absolute awful. He WAS troubled. IN trouble. Even while he was dating this she beast his mother *me and step-father was bailing him out and helping him! Then the awful wedding.

That was back in 2004. Like a brick had fallen on my head (actually it was an attack from a hair stylist on me and my daughter both at the wedding hair "thing" that woke me up).

I sent an email to my son letting him know he would not get away with treating me like that any more. He returned that by demanding I apologize to her. And NO MORE EMAILS! Right? I did nothing. I jumped thru the hoops with a smile glued to my face - paid what I was expected to and was basically ignored. It hurt. This went.on.for.years.

So goodbye to them! Of course she goes on her social pages to tell of how I ignored my granddaughter and I was bipolar, etc, etc. She cannot stop twisting that knife she alone put between my should blades? Come on! No more.

It has been over 8 years. I am calmer. Happier. Organic. Gluten free. I love my life without those two unhappy people bent on using everyone to death.

My hopes is that you all find a place of peace with your troublemakers. Give them a time out and do something nice just for yourself. If you do it long enough you wont miss them. Change phone numbers. Email addies. Why take the abuse?

Good luck to all. :)

Um, if you are crying because your daughters are going shopping without you, YOU are the problem, not them.

If being in a house by yourself causes you to 'break down', again, YOU are the problem, not them.

If being alone in the house while your daughters go shopping is evidence that they don't care if you 'live or die', YOU are the problem, not them.

This is neurotic behavior on your part. It's not normal. Grown women do not break down into crying fits because they are alone in a 'big' house while other family members go shopping. And to see it as evidence that they do not care if you live or die is and evidence that they have no soul, is actually evidence that you are emotionally ill and have very poor adult coping skills.

And your daughter's response that she doesn't have time for this nonsense is a healthy response. Your breakdown is not.

You said you were going to start going to therapy. I hope you do. You'll be happier for it.

Here's the thing about estrangement: If you have more than one child estranged from you--it IS you.

And this business of: "I don't know what I/we did" is nonsense. At some point you were told. If you didn't listen, or you waved it off with "that's not justification for cutting me off" (which is not your decision), then you can't say you weren't told and don't know. Your agreement or approval is not necessary. You may think it's not important or significant, but if they are cutting you off, you are wrong: it IS important. Deciding which issues are important enough to cut you off is THEIR right, not yours, and it's best to respect their decision and LISTEN.

A lot of you parents who get cut off say things like: we had an argument... Why the heck are you arguing with adult children? There's nothing to argue about, they are adults. Do you also argue with your neighbors, coworkers, cousins, etc...? Are you an argumentative person. Well, perhaps that's the reason. And unless you are 6 years old, don't even try the "...well, my daughter started it..." Yes, and you jumped right in.

I have read here a lot: I was an alcoholic, I had depression, I had to work all the time, I had a bad divorce from my ex, etc... But that was a long time ago, and they need to get over it. I did the best I could.

Well guess what? Your best wasn't good enough. Your drinking problem, depression, absence, divorce drama, whatever HURT them, being defensive about it is not going to solve anything. Asking your children to see you as a victim of something whether your addiction, illness, depression, ex, financial woes, whatever, is wrong. Your children will resent it.

Another thing I read here a lot is: I gave them everything, love, security, blah, blah, blah. I raised them right. I dedicated my life to them, maybe I shouldn't have, they turned out to be selfish brats. Umm...no, if they turned out to be selfish brats, you did not raise them right and didn't give them everything.

And then there's enmeshment. If you are a parent who needs to be enmeshed to feel loved and safe, you are very likely to have problems with your adult children. To you enmeshment and 'closeness' (we are very close, we are a close knit family) is the 'right' way. Anything else is unkind, cruel, selfish, unloving, narcissistic, mentally ill. But to adult children, enmeshment does not feel warm and loving, it feels controlling and smothering. And they will fight to get free of you. Autonomy is a compelling developmental milestone in a human being's life just as much as going through the terrible twos is. If you've been damaged by life and fear it and have retreated into enmeshment (and codependency, etc), you may be surprised and hurt and panicked when your child hits that miles and surpasses it. His/her autonomy feels like abandonment and rejection to you. And you explain it to yourself that there's something wrong with your child--but the truth is, there's something wrong with you. Enmeshment problems can only be dealt with professional help. A lot of times, especially with boys enmeshment problems don't show up until your child gets married. Which brings me to...

No, it's not the fault of your child's spouse. Nobody can poison your child against you. No matter how horrible your child's spouse is, (abusive, controling, a ex-con, addict, manipulative, whatever), they STILL can't 'poison' your child against you. Your child's relationship started with you long before the spouse came along, and your child is making his/her own judgments about it. I know that it's soothing to pretend it's someone poisoning your weak-minded little lovebug, but that's not what's happening. Even if the spouse IS bad talking you, your child is matching his/her words against what he/she knows to be true about you in his/her experience. If what the spouse says matches what your child already knows, guess what...it's not the spouse, it's YOU.

Defensiveness on your part, minimizing their complaints, blaming others, focusing on how your child tells you rather than the content of what he tells you are all games you are playing to avoid taking responsibility for your part. NO estrangement, and that is NO without ANY exceptions, is the fault of just one side. If you are estranged from your child, YOU are at least partially to blame, and you need to change some things about yourself.

In the OP, where the poster goes into hyper drama mode of emotional breakdown and wailing about how her children don't care if she lives or dies because they go shopping without her leaving her alone in her own house, she is clearly mostly to blame for the estrangement. She's obviously histrionic and neurotic--but even the daughters have some blame: they aren't handling her well. They shouldn't have to, but fate gave them a drama queen for a mother and they need better interaction skills. However, they weren't here writing for advice, and the mother was.

I'm sorry for your loss. I know a friend who has two adopted children. Boy and girl. She lost her husband and the son took advantage of her and got control of her estate. Please be careful dealing with these kids, they don't sound like they have your best interests in mind.

Can you move back to Las Vegas? Are there friends you could look up again? At least it would be warmer and there are more resources for retirees there.

Best wishes going forward.

You want this all just to go away and make it easy for you to pretend happy families. Your son raped his sister. You cannot be happy families.

I don't blame your daughter for being angry with you; she's right: You did not protect her from her brother, and you blame her now, and call HER mentally ill (not the rapist) and you disown HER rather than the one who really should be disowned.

And you think YOU are the victim.

It just amazes me how clueless bad parents are.

Please disown your son and be patient, kind and loving with your daughter. And take some responsibility for not protecting your daughter from your son and for not raising your son right. This is a terrible story, you really need to make amends to your daughter and step up to the plate.

Your son is your child, an adult child, NOT your best friend. He got married and is now centering his life on his wife, not on you. You need to find friends among your peers and stop relying on him.

Your complaints are petty. He didn't have a long enough engagement? He went out of town to his future FIL on Father's Day instead of you? He didn't involve you in the wedding planning? He didn't make time for you before the wedding? He doesn't stop at the house any more? He doesn't want you opening his mail?

This is all petty stuff based on you being hurt that you are no longer the center of your son's life. You need to get a life of your own. Find friends your own generation and stop relying on your son to provide you with validation and entertainment.

He keeps telling you he's busy. Well, he is. He's a husband now and busy creating a life with his wife. He isn't going to be your sidekick anymore.

I didn�t ask you for your advice. Why don�t you spend your time working on whatever brought you to this forum instead of spewing your nonsense after every post in this forum. It is very clear that you are emotionally bankrupt and I for one don�t care why you�re here. Everyone here has posted their circumstanses except YOU which makes me think you are a fraud and probably someone underage. Get yourself some help!! You need it!!

I stood my ground with my son in a similar manner and wouldn't allow him to be disrespectful by not replying to him when he was. He is finally coming around slowly without his wife for now. He is a police officer and is getting promoted soon and just yesterday he asked if I would attend the ceremony so things do change for the better.

You did the best you could for them and that counts for a lot. Enjoy the one child that is still close to you. Many of us here didn't have that option. Be well!