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imaginny

For discussion of parent/child estrangements

imaginny
16 years ago

This is the first post of a new thread for discussion of estrangements between parents and their grown children.

Maybe there have always been family estrangements. I know that I never expected to be estranged from my daughter. Our estrangement didn't begin until she was 29. Since then I have heard of so many estrangements of parents by their grown children. The stories are often wrenchingly painful. In many cases there seem to be no solution. However, recently I have been hearing of the beginning of reconciliations. When reconciliation begins, it seems to take a long time and the parents are often fearful of saying or doing the wrong thing and they often don't even know what the wrong thing is as it might be a hug or a look or something else that seemed innocuous to them.

Ginny

Here is a link that might be useful: Estrangements: The Website

Comments (150)

  • cornflakes
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Anniebal, it was a good article. However, I believe my daughter has successfully forgotten about us. She hasn't suffered psychologically or otherwise. I feel sorry for those who have just begun this journey.

  • anniebal
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Cornflakes, I can't believe that your not in the back of your daughters mind somewhere, at least at a subconcious level. It's just not that easy to erase the people who raised and loved you your entire life until you were a young adult. Your daughter may not exhibit that she's suffering psychologically, but I'm not sure that she isn't suffering in some way, shape or form. Even the rude way she treats you is an indication to me that something is wrong. It's just not normal not to be able to have an adult relationship with your parents, even if you don't agree on most issues. One has to accept the fact that they are your parents, and they love you, this doesn't mean we don't disagree on many or most issues.

    I still hold out hope for you Cornflakes, I really do. I feel that she needs help, that your sil has brainwashed and manipulated her to the point that she can't see the truth. I think that my son can't allow himself to see the truth because if he did, it would be like opening pandora's box. This could be the same thing for your daughter. Let's face it, she's been married now for quite a while, and she has a couple of kids too. It is scary facing the prospect of being out their alone with no father to help raise the kids, or support them and you. I imagine many can't face that difficult prospect, so they keep those thoughts buried deep inside of themselves. Sooner or later however, those thoughts will rise to the surface and when they do I feel they will be very upset at how much time they wasted in their lives with someone they didn't truly love or respect. They will realize what they gave up, and hopefully it isn't too late for them to reconcile with those she loves and has hurt.

    I just don't believe they are normal in the sense that their thinking is so unrealistic. My son used to be this sweet, naive boy who would do almost anything for anybody. We were so close, and had many great talks and experiences together. This is a complete turn around from what he was like, and it can't be healthy. There is something affecting his thought process (which I believe stemmed from my dil with her lies and manipulation.) I fear for him, I truly do. I fear what he will be like if he ever does wake up and allow himself to smell the coffee? Right now I know he is being very self destructive, doing things he never would have done prior to my dil. I know it stems from her and this estrangement between us. I worry that his self destructivness may do harm in some way or another, and that is scary stuff. I only hope that if or when he wakes up and realizes what he's done that he knows he can still come home, that we will always be there and love him.

    I wish I could believe he is happy, but I just can't. I doubt your daughter is truly happy either.

    anniebal

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    garden60, yes it is a scary thing thinking that our sons will be away from us so long that they will quit caring. I know this is what my dil hopes will happen, I only hope she doesn't succeed or isn't right. Since my son is planning on a family soon, it will be very interesting to see how she handles a baby getting all the attention in place of her. Being narcisstic, this is going to be quite a roller coaster ride for my son I think, who naturally will have most to all of his attention on a new baby. I'm still hoping she doesn't get pregnant right away, and that there is time for him to come to his senses. I'm not even saying he has to leave her, but learn to deal with her control issues and put his foot down about continuing his relationship with his own family. I've heard that people with personality disorders can be dealt with (tho very difficult) once one recognizes the problem. There are many places on the net that give advice to someone learning to deal with this disorder. I know my sons loves her very much, so if he could just learn to control her (and not in the sense that she is controlling him,) then I think things could work out for all of us. However, she is very difficult and so controlling. Cornflakes, I am so glad to hear that you found a new therapist and your working on your anxiety issue. Since anxiety and depression usually go hand in hand, there is a good chance that your anxiety was causing the depression. Good luck in quitting your medication. I think your husband and mine are pretty typical of male reactions to such an estrangement. They are not as outwardly emotional, therefore they keep things in and I believe do get angry instead. However I know my hubby misses our son very much, and wishes he would get his wits about him. Who knows. I can't imagine finding your mother the way you did, but you need to trust the dr. and what he is telling you. I am sure you mom did not suffer, she had already died, which lead to her collapse. I agree we can move on from the deaths easier, and it has been stated as such in many of the books I've read. It is the fact that our loved one has chosen to not be with us, where as in death, almost no one makes that choice. It is a pain deeper then anyone can imagine (except those of us going through it) each day realizing we are still not reunited with our child. Thinking each day that anything could happen, and we may not be here for them. Realizing taht they don't understand this, or are ignoring the possibility. Our children are gambling with the future, and it could be a very high price they pay should they lose. Cindijf, I too feel very badly for your situation. Since your daughter is so young, I still hold out much hope that she will mature and realize what she is doing is not right. Your daughter still has many growing pains to experience, and I believe in time, those pains will teach her what she is too young to realize right now. Keep the hope, as I believe she will be back.
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    Some random thoughts about this from someone who is NOT young. If my MIL wanted me to call her "mom", she'd be out of luck. Nope, sorry, get over it. If she wanted me to call her "Mrs. Last Name", I'd be fine with it--providing she called me "Mrs. Last Name" as well. I understand not wanting to be called by your first name, however, it's a foolish MIL who makes an issue out of it (even if you drop it later). Most ILs who don't settle the question to everyone's satisfaction, end up not calling their ILs anything. This works, even if it's a bit awkward. Even if you pay for part of the wedding, or the house downpayment, or the vacation, or the baby gear, or whatever...YOU GET NO SAY. If you can't give a gift without strings attached, don't give the gift. The difference between a gift and a bribe is...what? The strings. The only legitimate stipulation you put on it is that is cannot be used for anything illegal. If you are making a business deal, (like house downpayment money to be used ONLY for a house downpayment--not for a new car, etc...), put it in writing. If you can't afford to lose the money, don't give it. If you can't give it without strings, don't give it. They will learn to refuse ANY gifts from you, and you will be left wailing: "I'm not even allowed to give my grandchildren a birthday present." Remember: it's not a present if you feel the gift entitles you to ANYTHING more than a thank you. If you do feel entitled to something in return, it's a business deal and you are required to state upfront the return expectations. Bait and switch is illegal and unethical. "I'll buy you a car, if you spend summer vacation with me" if fair; your adult child has the right to agree or not. If you want a wedding done your way, get married yourself or remarry your husband. Other than that, shut up and leave it alone. It's not your turn, it's not your wedding, your opinions and preferences and taste don't matter. You have no more say in your child's wedding, than you have a say in MY child's wedding. And that brings up the subject of rights, and I say this as the parent of an adult child--you have none. NONE. You may have some rights in certain circumstances, such as they live under your roof, so you set the rules of the household. But in truth, in reality, legally...you have NO RIGHTS. Wise parents don't forget this. Adult children in America have the right to completely abandon their parents and to shut them out in every way. You don't have the right to give them advice, to decide their medical treatment, to choose their careers, spouses, or domicile. You don't have the right to call, to visit, to spend holidays together, to expect repayment for all you did as a parent. As soon as you hear yourself saying, "I have the right..." or even THINK it, remind yourself that you are wrong. Yes, you are WRONG. And you are fooling yourself and setting yourself up for disapointment. A wise mother/MIL appreciates and is grateful for everything she receives from her adult children, even if she wishes it were more. The more you appreciate and the less you demand, the more you will end up with. We've all heard the story of the mother who spends a rare visit with her son whining that he doesn't visit more; and then wonders why he doesn't want to see her. Also remember: in no relationship do both people care the same. There is always someone who cares more and someone who cares less. The person who cares less has the most power. When that well-established psychological rule of thumb is applied to intergenerational relationships, it mostly plays out that the younger generation cares less about the relationship than the older one. There are many reasons for this: older people have fewer distractions in life (careers, education, hobbies, friends, minor children, financial obligations, etc...) and value relationships more, and life tends to look forward not back. Your adult children are genetically programed to feel more attachment to their partner and their own children than to their parents. No amount of whining, manipulation, or guilt tripping will change that. Love for partner and children does not exclude love for parent, but it is important for parents of adult children to understand their place in their children's lives. It's a difficult change, because at one point you DID have all the power in the relationship and you WERE the most important person in your child's life. Some parents find the change in status to be liberating; many parents of adult children find the change in status difficult and frightening. They cling, they demand, they set up tests of loyalty, they try to manuevre proof that nothing has changed...and they lose out. It's a huge change to your life to bring a child into it...and it's an equally large adjustment to see them go. If you don't let go voluntarily, they will wrench themselves away violently. The closer you were, the larger the chasm. The parent has to let it happen. Once the boundary has been well established, and only until it's been established, can the adult child form an adult version of a close parent/child relationship. All parents think they've let go; many of those with trouble parent child relationships have not, and are fooling themselves. "If you loved my son you would...", "If you loved your mother you would...", "If you loved your husband you would..." Sorry, that's just plain manipulation. Those sentences are generally completed by demands that have nothing to do with love. It is manipulation, it's CLASSIC manipulation, and even when people can't put their finger on what's wrong with it, they know it and feel manipulated. My MIL tried this; she wanted my husband's attention on our honeymoon. "If your wife loved you, she would let you spend time with your mother on your honeymoon." And I pointed out, "If MIL really loved her son, she'd leave him alone on his honeymoon." Yes, she huffed and puffed about how there was no doubt she loved him, but she never pulled that stunt again. Remember: just because someone does not like you or rejects you, it does not make them an "N". Nor does disliking you make anyone mentally ill, defective, immature, unable to love (they are just unable to love YOU perhaps), jealous, insecure, immature or anything. Remember also, a famous characteristic of "N"s is the proclivity to label everyone else "N"s. If someone doesn't like you, it's probably for the same reason you don't like them: because of personality and flaws, and probably because of mistakes in the relationship. Apologize for the mistakes you made. If the relationship is important to you, mitigate the parts of you they object to when you are around them. If the other one is bothered by your excessive talking, talk less around them. You aren't OBLIGATED to modify your behavior around them, but then again, they aren't obligated to be around you. Dr Phil points out: people gravitate toward pleasure and away from pain. You cause your adult children pain, they will probably drift away. Conversely, if they've drifted away, you've probably caused them pain. Another thing: adult children almost never become estranged without first trying to reason it out with their parents first. They will tell you what the problem is and ask you to do something different. You are a FOOL if you ignore this. This is the only way you are going to be able to fix the problem--listen and RESPECT the complaint and change. Dismissing their complaint will not fix it, minimizing it will not work, arguing about it will not work. If the complaint is so off the wall or outrageous, such as accusing you of sexual molestation, the problem is unfixable, and it is in your best interest to support the estrangement, or work through it with professional intervention. However, this is rare. Most adult children who have complaints about their parents strong enough to cut them off are not inventing things out of nowhere, they may be blowing them a bit out of proportion, but they have valid complaints. If you are punitive to your adult children (ie, I don't like how they behaved on vacation, so you insist they call you a different name), do not be surprised if they are punitive to you. Don't scream bloody unfair when after you've given the grandchildren chocolate though being told not to, your adult children say you won't be seeing them the rest of the summer. If you give your kids the silent treatment, don't be surprised if you get it right back. Words once spoken exist forever, you can't erase them by saying, "Everyone says horrible things when they are angry". Actually no, but even if it were true, words once said cannot be unspoken. Don't expect people to pretend you didn't say them. All you can do is apologize sincerely and stop saying hateful things. You aren't in Jr High School, so don't act like it. If you find yourself doing this too often, it's YOUR problem (meaning no one's making you do it), get a therapist and learn self control and healthier ways of expressing yourself. Remember, if you attack people you claim you love, they will eventually start to avoid you. Any woman who tries to persuade your adult child not to marry is a HUGE FOOL. Remember your adult child knows everything about their potential spouse PLUS STUFF YOU DON'T--and they've still decided to marry. It may indeed be the biggest mistake ever, and you may be completely right. But you might as well commit hari keri than to argue, badger, and nag your child into not marrying someone they want to marry. All parents of adult children need to know the difference between helping and meddling. The difference is: is your input wanted? If no one asked you, assume your advice or 'help' is unwanted. It's your job to ENSURE your contribution is welcomed. If you go ahead and 'help' and find out later it was not wanted, you were the one who was wrong. Your good intentions don't count. Just don't do it. Don't interfere, impose, advise, butt in, until you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that your participation is welcome. Arguing about whether or not someone should want your help is like arguing that someone should like brussel sprouts; if they don't, they don't. Nobody thanks meddlers, even well intentioned ones who are just trying to be nice. Nice people make sure they aren't imposing; well intentioned people listen to the wishes of others. Fools jump in where angels fear to tred. Let your children manage their own money, careers, education, decorate their own houses, raise their own children, and plan their own vacations and holidays. If they want to include you, great. But they don't have to, and you have no right to insist. And your wisdom, experience, and maturity don't mean as much to other people as you think--they are yours. Also remember you don't have to bail them out of their mistakes, but if you do, don't assume that gives you permission to take over their lives. Don't expect everyone to fight your battles for you. If you are angry with your adult children, don't think everyone else in the family or the community should take up your cause. This is a strong indicator of dysfunctional relationships. It's call triangulation and it ALWAYS makes communication worse and problem solving more difficult. Other people have their own relationships and experiences with your estranged children, and it's not fair to expect them to sacrifice those relationships to make you feel better. If everyone has problems with the estranged adult child, don't be gleeful: you are the one who raised this difficult person, you bear some responsibility for how disappointingly they turned out. And if the estrangement hurts you, you still hurt no matter who agrees or disagrees. Remember too, no one can MAKE your adult child ignore you. No one can steal your child, no one can turn them against you. Your child can contact you if he really wanted to. He would see you if he cared enough to. No matter how horrible you imagine your child's spouse to be, no matter how much pressure you think your DIL or Son-IL puts on your child to cut you off, the fact is there are always ways to keep in contact with you if they wanted. It's hurtful to acknowledge that your child chooses to participate in shunning you. But it's also the beginning of healing the rift. You can make all the excuses for your child you want (he's weak, he's scared, he's immature, he's brainwashed, he's a complete idiot, he's mentally ill too), but until you deal with the fact that he is choosing to reject you, you will not see his point of view, and without seeing his point of view, you can't fix a thing. ANd finally, just because you put up with mistreatment and disagreeableness from your parents and in-laws does not mean, your children and in laws must put up with disagreeableness from you. Things change, and not putting up with disagreeable people is a positive change in society. If you are a certain age, it was completely acceptable for your father to beat your mother; now it's not, and the world is a better place for it (altho wife beaters usually don't agree).
    ...See More
  • cornflakes
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You know, I've always believed she was unhappy...that she was miserable, but I must be mistaken. If she were so unhappy, she would have left him a long time ago. Other members in my family think she fears him, and he is quite tempermental, but I don't think he would ever physically harm her. He is a liar and deceptive and yes, he is very manipulative...the very word he used to describe me. Because he convined her to give up her college education and have children and convinced her to give up a very well paying job, she has no chance in every being self sufficient. And, this may have crossed her mind. I doubt that the SIL truly loves her. If he did, he would never try to separate her from us. It's as if he has to be her sole source of support, of happiness...of everything. I view this as his own insecurity, but hey...he controls her, he has her exactly where he wants her - away from us. The saddest thing about it, is that I see no end to this. I am lonely. I am bitter. They are happy. They are secure. I can honestly say I have seen justice rendered to every "unjust" circumstance I have personally encountered over my lifetime. However, this one I don't see coming. And, I remain confused about it daily.

  • njtea
    16 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cornflakes, your daughter is NOT happy and your SIL doesn't love her because as you said, if he did, he would not separate her from her family. Together they are NOT happy and they are NOT secure, at least they are not emotionally secure, financially maybe but certainly not emotionally.

    My daughter is in pretty much the same boat married to a manipulative controlling man. At the current time, it's difficult for me to see an end to the estrangement unless certain things happen - and even then, because my daughter does not have the necessary skills to support her children, I wonder if it will ever happen. He's given her cause to leave and she has chosen not to do so. Personally, I believe that is because he has brained washed her into believing that his "extra-marital" relationship (with another MAN) was her fault and she accepted the blame. Unfortunately, I see her staying with him, unless he makes a move, until her children have reached adulthood.

    Justice will rain down upon my daughter and upon your daughter also; I firmly believe that. I might not live to see it, but IT WILL HAPPEN.

  • cornflakes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow! The other man thing just blew me away. And yet, she's still with him? How long ago did that happen? I remember one of the few times that I spoke with my daughter and she told me she always felt she was right, but that when she argued with my SIL, that he always made so much sense and that she never could hold her ground with him. Well, that's become ever more obvious over the years. I thought she had more self confidence instilled in her than that. I have such great compassion for everyone here. With each sentence, it's as if I can feel your pain in my heart. Oh, how I long to be called "Mother," again and to hear my granddaughter say, "MiMi." It's really not too much to ask is it? To have so much to offer, so much love to give and to have it rejected.

  • anniebal
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    njtea, I have to say I am as shocked as cornflakes regarding your sil having an affair with another man! At first I found myself thinking that there is no way anyone could convince their wife that they were to blame for such a thing. However, then I remembered what my dil has been able to convince my son of, and I know that 'they' can do it. These abusers, narcissists, manipulator, controlers, etc. are skilled at what they do. I'm sure you sil is very skilled, and these people degrade them to the point that they have no self confidance, or self esteem. Their partners begin to believe that they are as lowly as their spouse states, that no one else would ever want them, etc. What is the most difficult to come to terms with I think is that my son was raised with nothing but love and support, and didn't witness this type of behavior. I know he always lacked a bit of confidance, but thinking that he could be completely turned around against us was a nightmare that I didn't believe could ever happen (or even one I ever thought about.)

    I know we are in the position that we could help my son financially if he needed that type of support. We're hardly rich, but I would work two jobs if it meant him leaving her and being happy again. I'm sure your daughters are aware that you would also do whatever you could to help them if they were to leave their mates?

    Cornflakes, you describe how your sil convinced your daughter to give up college, and leave a well paying job to have kids and be with him. Well, we feel that my dil caused my son to stop persuing a flying career that he was well under the way working towards until he got engaged to her. We knew our son loved what he was doing, but when he told us he was going to stop, we took him at his word that he just didn't have the interest to do so. Some time after that decision we learned that my son's fil (to be) made my son promise that he would never take his daughter away from him (the area that they lived!) This would have made his job persuit in flying impossible since it almost always takes you away for a few years anyway before one can get based back in the city they wish to be in. I know, since this is how I spent the first 3 years of our marriage. The point is, they can almost always get back home, yet this man to a young man who takes giving his word very seriously, and convinced him to make a promise that would eseentially destroy a dream that he was currently fulfilling.

    My sons life has been ruined as far as I'm concerned. I don't believe he can possibly be truly happy, it's just a lie to himself he has told himself is true. He won't allow the truth to come to the surface because of the problems he'd encounter if he did so.

    I'm very confidant that this is the case for all or most of our children. Remember that the abuser first ruins any self confidance and self esteem the person has, and then works on the divide and conquer. They convince our children that they are worthless, that no one else would want them, and that their parents are trouble makers that need to stay out of their lives. Of course they don't want us because we could give our children the love, support and praise they need to keep level headed. That love we gave unconditionally was a threat to the abusers power, and we had to be removed for that reason.

    Who knows if they will ever see it. If my son does ever wake up, I feel he will be devastated emotionally. I'm not sure he would even come back to us if he did realize what his wife had managed to convince him of. The shame and humiliation would be overwhelming. We would never give him anything but support and love, but in his mind he would be feeling that may be gloating, or something similar.

    anniebal

  • njtea
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Since I've begun speaking of my experience, a few other mothers have told me that they believe their daughters, estranged or not, are in similar situations.

    I learned during therapy that often times a couple will remain together when one "comes out" for the "sake of the children" or for financial matters. In a situation where the problem is acknoweledged, the couple often just live in the same house together and each goes their separate way. I don't believe this to be the case with my daughter as I don't believe any acknowledgment of the situation has been made by her husband.

    There was an article in, I think, the New York Times about such relationships around the time "Brokeback Mountain" came out, but I can't find it now.

  • njtea
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Regarding grandchildren, I'll share a secret: I'm scared to death that if/when we ever reconnect, they will be children (or young adults) that I find I don't like.

    They will always be young in my mind, because they were still young when I last saw them. These are the grands that I remember and love so much. I just pray they won't change from those loving wee ones, but I fear their parents will have instilled in them the same loathing for me that they hold.

    That being said, I think my daughter loathes me only because her husband has told her to think like that. I believe that deep down inside she loves me as I love her.

  • cornflakes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dear njtea, I know what you mean about the grandchildren. I have a photo of my grandaugther prominently displayed in our great room and a photo copy of her footprints when she was first born on our refrigerator. It's as if she's frozen in time in our hearts and minds. I too am concerned that she will have instilled a hatred for us.

  • sniffles07
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    NJTea, I believe your daughter loves you too. I believe that about my own. Whenever she isn't speaking to us, she jumps on the bandwagon with her hubby and they tell EVERYONE they come into contact with about how bad dh and I are. They've made up plenty. I feel she does this because she feels guilty, she knows it's not right that she isn't speaking to us. She knows deep down it's to make her husband happy. When she is around us, (even though sil still is mad) you can tell she's happy to talk to us. I even got a compliment from her the other day, in a round about way. We were in a group and she was upset about what an in law did to her, and dd said, 'my mom would never do that to me!' I just smiled to myself and thought, see? maybe I'm not so bad!

  • anniebal
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sniffles, how often do you see your daughter? So, your not completely estranged then? Or were you estranged, but you've had some form of reconciliation? I know I've read your posts, but I can't remember what your current situation is.

    Prior to logging on this site, I was just sitting watching tv and my mind wondered to what my son is doing now, and if he ever thinks about us. I wonder if he misses us, or if he thinks of us, it is pure disgust? I know I said that I think deep down (probably subconciously) he stills loves us, but coming to grips with this is a daily struggle for me.

    anniebal

  • imaginny
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    On the topic of whether our estranged children ever think of us, I know that my daughter has been visiting my blog on estrangements from the fall of 2005 to now. Up until late 2007 she visited my blog almost every day and sometimes as many as twelve times per day. She visited it regardless of whether I wrote anything. Currently she is subscribed to it and visits it still about once a week. Even though I now let months go by without writing anything new to it.

    For those who are wondering how I know that, it is because I can see information about visits to my blog in site statistics. Sometimes my ex-husband, who has refused to speak to me for over 20 years and who is also estranged by my daughter, visits my blog. On March 27 they both visited on the same day. They don't speak to each other or to me but they visit my blog.

    I find this so strange. Three people that lived together once upon a time and loved each other and now none of us are on speaking terms and they visit my blog although they won't speak with me. It seems surreal.

    So I know that my daughter thinks of me regularly.

    I don't know this woman any more who is my daughter. I don't think that she knows me. I am SURE that she does not know me. I don't think that she even wants to try. But yet she visits my blog despite her statements of not wanting to have anything to do with me.

    It all feels so very sad.

    Ginny

  • cornflakes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Isn't that odd Ginny? There must be something your daughter is seeking to come here. What else is there to see from post to post other than care, compassion, hurt, hope for reconcilation and an immeasurable amount of love. I wish my daughter cared enough to seek me out in some manner.

  • imaginny
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    cornflakes, It isn't "here" that she comes. The Gardenweb discussion boards are not mine. She comes to my blog on estrangement which is connected to my website on Estrangements. I sometimes provide the links to my site and to my blog at the end of some of my posts.

    I don't think she comes here to the Gardenweb forums. If she did, I would probably hear about it from friends of mine.

    In 2005 she found my posts on the Family Rifts group which resulted in my leaving that group. So if she came here, it might be a repeat of what happened then.

    Ginny

  • sniffles07
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Anniebal, I've been estranged from my daughter twice. The first time last 3 yrs, and we weren't allowed to see the grandkids for 2 of those years. That estrangment ended approx. 6 yrs ago. About 2 yrs ago, sil got mad at dh and ds about something that didn't involve him at all. DD still visited for a few months, without him, then she stopped coming also and we didn't get to see the grandkids again. That lasted about 5 months, and she started showing back up with the grandkids. SIL is still mad. She mentions him from time to time, we speak nicely of him, but that's it. We just don't see him. I've learned from one of the grandchildren that sil is not happy they get to come up. So I know he's trying to run things in the ditch, so to speak. That also validates what I've known in my stomach from the beginning...he's behind a lot of it. I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

  • anniebal
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sniffles, what does dh and ds stand for? I'm still getting used to some of these abbreviations. I know sil stands for son in law, but not sure what DD stands for either? Sorry, I'm rather slow in this area!

    I can imagine how afraid you are about them (especially him,) yanking your daughter and grandkids away again. That is a big fear of ours too. We've talked that if our son reconciles with us, and they are expecting (which I know they are planning to start trying this summer,) that we'll both be very reluctant to get attached to their child. We both know that as soon as we do, our dil will pull another stunt and use the child as leverage to get her way. Of course we won't do it (again,) however, the hurt will be unbearable if we have gotten close to that grandchild. We also feel that if our son can treat us this way, and if he doesn't reconcile with us, then why would we want anything to do with his offspring? It is the offspring who will suffer in this case, and it is my son and dil that will be causing it. Let the child ask someday about who is grandma is and why don't they see her. I'm sure they'll come up with some doozie just as they have with their excuse for not seeing us about how we've wronged them terribly and we're unloving and cold people.

    When my son and I got together last summer so that he could read me his riot act, he asked me how I could have sent him an email stating that I thought his wife was a terrible awful person. I told him that I never said that, and he replied quickly with the fact that he had the email saved on his phone and could show it to me to prove it. I asked him to please show it to me, since I knew I'd never said that. My son starts to read it to me, and it states: "I'm sure your wife has convinced you of what awful horrible parents you have." WOW, far cry from what he stated I said. Even after he read what was really stated, and acknowledged that, "Oh, that wasn't what you said," there was no apology for accusing me of saying that, or even acknowledgement that he was wrong/mistaken for thinking that that was what I had said.

    It's no wonder then about what he has construed in his head things we have said, OR how his wife has twisted the things we've said around in his head to the point that he doesn't know what is what.

    Ginny, I also believe that for whatever reason, your daughter is seeking out some form of relationship with you by going to that site and looking for your posts. I know that I've done searches on google and have come up with posts that my son has made at different discussion groups, and for me it's a way to stay connected in some way. At least I get to hear some of what's going on in his life so that I don't feel completely cut off, (only 99.9% instead.)

    Maybe your daughter just doesn't know how to make up with you since it has been so very long. I often think that my son will be so ashamed of himself if he ever does realize what he has done to the two people who loved him more than anyone else ever could do. I wonder if he'll even be able to face us again even if he wants to do so? It may be easier for him to stay away, then face up to what's been going on. I can't help but think your daughter may be in this mode of thinking. Perhaps she wants to see you, but she can't admit she was wrong, or she is very ashamed of the way she has treated you. I do think her reading your posts though is a way for her to stay connected in some way.

    Your right in what you state though, it is very sad that this is as far as she can go to be with you (in a very isolated way.)

    Anniebal

  • sniffles07
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Anniebal, dh = hubby ds= son.
    I picked this abbreviations up off websites so maybe I have them wrong! I've tried to figured them out also. ha

  • cornflakes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm sorry, I misunderstood, but I'm certain she finds the same posted on your blog. Mom was discharged from the nursing home this past Tuesday. Daughter doesn't know it. One day, who knows when, she'll stop by, find she isn't there and the SIL will prob-ab-lee call. Isn't it pathetic? My stomach gets in knots just thinking about it. I haven't been in counseling about this for a long, long time, but am considering going back soon. Try as I may, and you'd think I would have built a bridge and gotten over this by now, but it still consumes too much of my thought life.

  • imaginny
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    anniebal, I agree that my daughter may feel as though it would be an admission of wrongdoing or that it would mean that I am "right" and she is "wrong" if she reconciled. It is really sad as I am uninterested in issues of who is right or wrong. I wish that she could see that these are not relevant issues and just put it behind her.

    This is something that she is going to have to figure out on her own as there is nothing that I can do about it. I have told her that she can't call me names. She would have kept communicating in 2006 through email but she was using the communication as a way to beat up on me verbally. I have told her not to get in touch with me again unless she WANTS a relationship.

    The verbal abuse was sick.

    It was strange too that she appeared to WANT to communicate in 2006 but only so that she could be verbally abusive. It wasn't a communication really. It was more of a nasty name calling fest on her part. She appeared to enjoy doing it.

    This is something that I have had to accept ~~ that this is how my daughter is now and that the only person who can change the situation is her. Even if she is sick, as I know she is, she is still the only one who could change anything.

    Ginny

  • anniebal
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ginny, I agree of course that we are not in control, it is them...not us as they say. Your daughter is either going to have to grow up and quit being ashamed to get back together with you (assuming she is ashamed for how she treated you,) or she is going to miss the wonderful person who loved her more than anyone else in the world could do. I guess that's what astounds me most, is just how does one not talk to their parents? What a cruel life that would be, and I don't believe any of them can be truly happy living like this. As it said in the article I left the link here for, children can never be psychologically free from their parents, no matter how much they think they are. Still, I've learned as you have too that we can't make them come back, can't make them realize that life is short, and they may not always have a chance to reconcile with us. I just wonder what type of life my son could lead if something happened to us before we reconciled? I know that I have done my best. I have gone above and beyond what most average parents would put up with. If I died tomorrow, I would know that it isn't me, I wouldn't die guilty, only sad that I didn't have my son in my life once he grew up.

    Cornflakes, I guess your sil never did follow through with possibly getting together as he threw out the prospect of? How sad that your daughter isn't even concerned over her grandmother. It's because your mom had the nerve to defend you, and had you come over when your daughter was at her home. This is how I feel my son is getting with his grandmother. Mind you, it's his only living grandparent. Still, he isn't seeing her as much, and I know his wife has told him that his dad's mother is poisoned by our stories. It's probably not even a case of my dil needing to intervene anymore to manipulate my son, I have a feeling he's doing it all on his own now. How did they get so out of touch with reality? They are so selfish that they can only see their own hurt, and no others. They feel they have been wronged, just as I heard repeatedly from the time my son got engaged to his wife until Hawaii last year. Neither one can take criticism, and being with them was literally walking on egg shells. Even though I'm sick over this, and very depressed, I can't go back to that type of relationship. I won't be his slave, or his kicking board. I am his mother and he will either come back and love and respect me for who I am, or it will never work. As long as dil is in the picture there is absolutely no chance of that happening. He is far too proud to admit he made a mistake, even if it makes him unhappy the rest of his life.

    In another month (or sooner,) he'll find out they aren't being invited to my husbands sisters for mother's day. His one sister always has it at her house, but this will be the first one that will step up to bat for us and let him know that they are on our page, and that they can't have them over with us there because it hurts us too much. All of this is true, it's not a game we're playing as I feel they have been doing for the last 6 months.

    It will be intereseting to see just what happens when the family lets them know we come first. I'm afraid for my son. I'm afraid he'll become completely isolated since the entire family now will be facing the wrath of his wife. She'll convince him they don't need any of us, that they have each other! This is a girl who doesn't know what emotional intimacy means. This girl is so superficial that all she watches are the goofy reality shows about models who don't work because they are so independently wealthy! The girl emotions are skin deep, she doesn't know how to really love anyone but herself. She will keep her ego inflated as long as my son continue to dote on her, but if and when that stops, or lessens, she may begin to look elsewhere for that attention. Better yet, wait until a baby is in the picture taking away all the attention from her. She'll be in 7th heaven while she pregnant because all the attention will be on her for 9 months, but as soon as that baby comes out all anyone focuses on is the baby. Of course this is completely natural, and normal people love all the attention their baby gets because they aren't stuck on self love only.

    Cornflakes, I do recommend you go back to your therapist. I've been going now for 6 months at least, and I don't have any plans on giving it up. I don't know if it's helping or not, since it just seems that I've lost interest in doing most things I used to love. I'm on anti-depressants but I think they can only do so much. Who knows, maybe if I weren't on them, I wouldn't even be on this board writing to all of you.

    I seriously don't know how to keep him out of my thought process either. He just trickles in an out all day long.

    Anniebal

  • cornflakes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I was going to my mothers to take lunch to her yesterday. When I walked in, I found her dead on the floor. She had fallen straight over her walker, face down on the floor. I immediately, frantically called 911. We may not be able to have an open casket, because when the coronor came and turned her body, it took my breath away again, as it didn't even look like my mom. I went into hysterics and waited there with her and the paramedics for almost an hour before my husband and brother arrived. My blood pressure sky-rocketed, my pulse rate went through the roof. The paramedic suggested I go on to the emergency room. While there, my husband phoned my daughter and told her I was in serious trouble. She asked, "What are you calling me for? Shouldn't you be talking to the doctor?" He said, "She really needs you now. The reason she's here is because she walked in and found her mother dead." She said, "Well, I've got to take care of my daughter. Here you can talk to Jeremy." I reached for the phone and the SIL was online. He stated, "It doesn't sound like you need anyone there. You sound like you're all on drugs." I said, "You're right.I don't need anyone here." I handed the phone to my husband and tried to lay still and let the drugs take effect. It was one of the most horrific times of my life. I feel guilty for not having arrived sooner. I feel guilty for making the decision to bring my mother home. Nurses were lined up beginning this Monday to provide care 8 hours a day. Oh God, I used bad judgement. They told me at the hospital and nusing home that she should be able to go home with only minimal assistance and I took their word. I can still see the blood on the carpet, see her precious face and hear the voice of my son in law. I feel so lonely. My assets lie on the other side. My Mom and Dad dearly loved me and I miss them so much. Dad took half of him with me when he died, now, Mother has the rest of me. I have my husband and no other family to support me. I wish I could be with them.

  • otmsheffield
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I usually spend time in the housing forums, but was drawn here today.

    Dear Mrs.Cornflakes, I am very sorry for your loss and for the dreadful way it happened. It may not be possible for you to believe this now, but try to accept that you are not guilty of any wrongdoing. You could not have prevented your mother's passing, even if you had ignored the advice of the health care professionals. Please take care of your own health and let your husband be your comfort and solace at this difficult time.

    My dear father lived in several facilities, with increasing levels of care, during the last few years of his life. In each one, he fell and was injured. Before he entered the nursing homes, I arranged for in-home care also. He still fell and was injured in his home. Before dementia robbed him of his faculties, he used to pray for release from this life. I used to pray he would be taken quickly and spared any more pain.

    My husband and I have dealt with all sorts of heartbreaking events with our parents and grandparents over the years. One beloved relative was raped in her nursing home when she was over 95. I don't tell you these things to add to your pain, but to remind you that we simply cannot be there 24/7 to protect our loved ones and no care arrangements that we make are perfect.

    Try to focus on the thought that your mother is now at peace, free of pain and anxiety, wanting for nothing. I hope you find comfort.

  • imaginny
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    cornflakes, I am so very sorry to hear of your loss. I know that your mother knew how much you loved her. She lives on in your memories of her. I wish you strength in the days ahead. It sounds as though it was very sudden and that there was nothing that you or anyone else could do to change the outcome. I am so glad that she had you in her life and that you had her.

    Please take care and be kind to yourself. You deserve kindness.
    Ginny

  • anniebal
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cornflakes! I am So, so sorry! You can't blame yourself for what happened to your mother. What happened could have just as easily occured at the nursing home. When my mom was in a rehabilitation facility where they were attempting to help her recover from a stroke, she nearly choked to death in her room! I just happened to be with her when she was attempting to swallow something (and her swallowing was not normal due to her stroke.) I don't even remember what it was, or why she had it, but I believe it was just liquid not food. At any rate, she started choking and there wasn't a nurse nearby to be found! I had to run to the nurses station where most if not all of them were gathered, either doing desk duties or talking to each other. Luckily I got the nurses attention in time and she was able to help my mother recover from her gagging, which I know would have lead to her going unconcious at the very least and probably would have killed her.

    When a person reaches that point of illness, weakness, dementia, etc. unfortunately things are going to happen that hurt the ones who see them and love them very much. There is so little we can do when they have reached that stage, BUT you did SOooo much for your mom! You were there for her, in sickness as well as health! You loved her very much, and she loved you very much! Whatever happened to your mom most likely happened so quick that she was instantly knocked unconcious and didn't even realize what had happened. Beyond a doubt she was not aware of pain at that point, she simply never came around after hitting her head so hard.

    You set the example for your daughter, and your daughter is either ill, or very messed up in other ways. How shameful that she couldn't be there for you even now, and that your sil would say such a thing to you. I don't believe she deserves you in her life, you are far too good a person to allow her to be doing this to you. I wanted to strangle your sil, and I don't even know him other than what you've spoken of.

    Please, please look for support from you husband, brother and other family members now but not your daughter. If I were you, I'd be reluctant to let her attend the funeral. All it will cause you is more grief seeing her insensitivity to you. She will feel less guilt attending, but I wouldn't give her that satisfaction. You don't need the stress of her ill behavior to you during this crisis in your life right now.

    I am so sad for you. I also feel a big part of me went whem my dad passed away because we were so close. But your not alone, you have your husband who loves you very much. You have nieces and nephews, and other family that want to be able to comfort you. Please let them comfort you during this sad time.

    Anniebal

  • sniffles07
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cornflakes, I'm very sorry to hear about your mother and then the horrible way your daughter acted.
    Do not blame yourself. I don't know your beliefs but I believe that when it is your time to go, you are going to go, and we all have different times. You couldn't have stopped it had you been there.
    "There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven A time to give birth, and a time to die; A time to plant, and a time to uproot what is planted. A time to kill, and a time to heal; A time to tear down, and a time to build up. A time to weep, and a time to laugh; A time to mourn, and a time to dance. A time to throw stones, and a time to gather stones; A time to embrace, and a time to shun embracing. A time to search, and a time to give up as lost; A time to keep, and a time to throw away. A time to tear apart, and a time to sew together; A time to be silent, and a time to speak. A time to love, and a time to hate; A time for war, and a time for peace. "
    King Solomon, The Bible, Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

  • anniebal
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    So true Cornflakes!

  • garden60
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am just back from a vacation in Texas that my husband and I took to visit friends and do some sightseeing. It is a GREAT way to escape pain for awhile. So I am just catching up on the posts.

    Cornflakes - you have my sympathy. My mother died pretty much the same way and while I miss her every day, I thank God she was able to go the way she did rather than linger with a painful cancer or other disease.

    In one of your earlier messages, you talk about your estrangement with your daughter. It sounds like your SIL also has NPD. Take a minute to read the mayo clinic website on it.

    Thanks also anniebal for the good article. Quite interestingly, the minister who married my son was estranged from his family for almost 30 years because his wife didn't want anything to do with them. They are now divorced and he has reunited with his family. I hope it doesn't take us that long.

    I sometimes wonder when my son and DIL will have children. I know my son wants to be a father really bad but I can see the same thing happening with them - DIL will get attention while pregnant but after all will go to the child. Heck, last Easter she was jealous of all the attention my son gave my niece's baby.

    Ginny - how would I find a blog my son might be writing? He is a computer geek (professionally) so he might have a blog to release his feelings since he doesn't want to talk to his family and since he didn't put his wife's name/phone on his medical records (but put my work number instead as second contact), maybe he is writing somewhere.

  • imaginny
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    garden60, To find posts online, start with searching online with things that you know. Such as the first part of someone's email address (the part before the @ symbol) or their name (including variations with middle initial, nickname, no middle initial, etc.). If you search for a name, put quotes around the name (example: 'John Smith') so that the search results come back for the exact name, not everyone named John and everyone named Smith that shows up on a page. You could try using Google, Yahoo, and any other search engines that you'd like to try.
    Google offers the ability to search blogs from a drop down menu to the right of the search window. After you do an internet search, you can go to the 'More' link and use the drop down menu and choose 'Blogs'.

    You could also try using the last name with the first letter of the first name.For example, if the name was John Smith, you could search for smithj. Or jsmith.

    You might try searching on social network sites such as MySpace, Facebook, and LiveJournal. Those are just three. There are more. If you search on those, you could search for a real name.

    Technorati is a search engine that is just for searching blogs. It doesn't do a perfect job but it is another tool for searching.

    Depending on whether you get many results in a search and need to narrow your search. you might use words that relate to a hobby or interest or job.

    On some sites you need to be a registered member but often registration is free. So you could register and then search.

    If someone posts on sites where members need to be registered, I don't think that any results will come up from internet searches. So you need to choose various sites that the person might be registered with and then register with those and search.

    If he is a computer geek, he might be more concerned about privacy and choose a user id that would not point directly to him.

    Okay, so that is some information on where to start. But I don't know if searching is a good idea. Although I think that people do this all the time. Some might feel as though their boundaries were being violated and get angrier if they found out that their online writing was being read. Misunderstandings can occur because people say things sometimes that they wouldn't say in the presence of their relatives or their boss or their friends. It's a slippery slope.

    My daughter found things that I wrote on the Family Rifts group and she disagreed with what I said. In her mind she remembers some things a certain way. I remembered them a different way and I had questions about those things which I discussed in the group. She found those posts over a year after I had written them and she then became furious. In her mind I have 'lied' about her. She does not discuss this with me, of course.

    It doesn't occur to her that my posts were based on what I knew and that I was discussing our estrangement and things that puzzled me. I would have no motivation to lie about her. No one in the group knew her when I was discussing these things. She would be a stranger to them. I stated what I knew and the questions that I had. She found the posts a year later and had a fit about them. I am sure that in her mind she still thinks that I 'lied' about her. It certainly isn't remotely logical that I would lie while in a discussion group talking about an issue that had caused me so much pain and which I was trying to understand. It isn't logical that I would lie under any circumstances as I work hard at being honest and it is not in my nature to lie. But she found those posts and believes that I lied. I do not know what she thinks that my motivation for lying would be. I do think that she is so sensitive about her self image that she takes anything that sounds critical as being a direct assault.

    I think that she saw my posts as being critical of her and she probably felt as though somehow complete strangers might feel less of her. I had written positive posts about her too but she ignored those and focussed on what she disagreed with.

    So it can be dangerous to find out what someone is saying when they don't think that you can see. They don't know that you know and you can't tell them without them then knowing that you have been searching for their posts. Which could cause a very negative reaction.

    Sometimes it is better not to know things. For example ~~ my daughter has a blog on the internet. Have I mentioned this before? I can't remember. I don't need to search for it. I find links to it in the service that gives me statistics for my own blog. I once clicked one of the links to it in 2006. I didn't know what the site was until I clicked the link. What I read there made me ill. So I don't go there and read her posts. I am well aware of how sick at heart it makes me. If I did go back and read her posts, it would be like sticking a knife in my hand, pulling it out, and doing it again and again and again. Sometimes it is better not to know.

    I gave you the information on how to search but I am not saying that I think that this is a wise thing to do. It might be better if you don't know. But I do understand that as a parent the desire to know information is strong. It's a choice as to whether to do that or not.

    Ginny

  • anniebal
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ginny, I think most of us here have searched for information on our estranged loved ones. I know I have, and I have found a ton of posts from my son. I even found two requesting advice. One of the posts for advice was incredibly skewed! It's as if he didn't even remember what really happened at all, he left out so many important details. This lead to replies that found us at fault of course, which was of no surprise. That one was the first written and was at the height of our arguing. In his 2nd post, it was much more calm, with less bias. Unfortunately for him, the one woman the replied was against him not seeing us for Christmas, and encouraged him to reconcile with us. I swear if he read this, he would believe I had found it and posted a reply under another name. It was a woman who had two kids, and she put so much emphasis on not letting go of one's parents. I couldn't have handpicked a better responder.

    Besides those posts, I've found tons on things my son has put on the net, mostly questions regarding different areas of interest. Those are actually interesting to find, since it gives me some feeling of connection with him, or at least so I know what's going on in his life to some degree.

    I do agreen with you however on it being a slippery slope. I can see how he would turn this around to me being intrusive or spying, as opposed to me being curious and lonely.

    I understand completely how your daughter remembers things quite differently, and accuses you of lying. I've been in both places too. Is it selective memory, over sensitization, unable to accept criticism, or what? It's perplexing, because as you stated, I have no reason to lie about what happened. In fact, I'm very good at stating the facts without embelishing. We're opposite of them because we want the truth out there, we want people to base their opinions on the real story, not on what we 'want to hear.' I think that is the biggest difference between us and our kids. It was obviuos from my sons 1st post that he wanted to get answers that agreed with him, so he left out very important details.

    Garden60! I'm glad your back, since you and I have SOoo much in common. I too believe my son will be trying to have a baby this summer. I think they are planning on her being pregnant over the school year since she is a teacher. This way she can take time off in March or April to have the baby, and then have the entire summer before she goes back to work. She is the last person who should ever be a mom, because she will be so jealous of the baby that it will hurt the babies self esteem. If they are still married then (I can hope, can't I??) she won't be able to tolerate my sons attention on the baby, which is where most of it will be for quite a while after the baby is born. This is natural of course, and usually where each partner's attention is focused, unless of course one is narcisstic.

    I mentioned in one of my postings that my dil was SOooo jealous of my younger sons girlfriend! She was absolutely beside herself, and to me it was so obvious. She would barely say a word to this girl, and then she quit talking to my son too. Later she told me that she wasn't right for my younger son, and that's why she wasn't talking to him for a year! She was afterall, 'teaching him a lesson!'

    Wow, she is very ill.

    anniebal

  • garden60
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, I tried to find any blogs on my son and found nothing (although I am not that great on investigation on the internet).

    My son's b'day is 4/30. I was planning to call his cell, leave a message just saying in a cherry, happy voice "Happy Birthday, 25 years ago today you were born and now you are an adult; time flies. Enjoy your special day. Love, Mom"

    The only thing holding me back is his last email to me of 1/22 which reads: "Ok, time for some explanation. After our last meeting in September, I spent the next 3 weeks in the hospital for Chrons Disease. The stress that I received throughout all of this and the stress that I experience every time I get a message from you or a note, or an email sends me right back to pain. So, no more notes, no more emails, no more cards, no phone calls. Ill contact you when I feel that I am up for that again. But until that happens, please dont send birthday cards or cards for holidays. I cant afford another visit to the hospital or to take more time off work."

    I found out that he does indeed have chron's disease (he had put my phone # as secondary contact and I got a call about test results); however, he was never hospitalized, that is just exaggeration to make me feel bad.

    What would you do?

  • imaginny
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    garden60, I wouldn't leave a message or send a card. But maybe I'd do something nice for myself on that day. Maybe have a special dessert or go out for a nice dinner.

    It is your day too! You were there on that day in a big way! It was a great day!

    Most of the years since the estrangement began with my daughter I have had problems with feeling depressed as her birthday approached. As the years went by, I had fewer problems with depression but sometimes it still comes back. My attitude now is to do something nice for myself on that day rather than to try to forget about it.

    I sent flowers years ago but I heard later that she threw them out.

    She claimed to have thrown other things out that I sent. One package contained the book put together by relatives in another country on the family tree on my side going back to the fifteen hundreds. They printed a limited number of those books and gave them to relatives. I was given two and sent one to her. Apparently she threw it out without opening it. Or so she later claimed.

    I have stopped sending anything.

    Ginny

  • anniebal
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Garden60, I have already decided not to send any type of card, or voice mail to my son on his b-day which is coming up in mid May. I have reached this conclusion for the same reason your pondering not doing it. My son has made it clear he wants absolutely no contact, and the last email I got from him scolded me for me leaving him a short message on his work voice mail. It was so cold hearted that I decided that that is it, I'm not putting my feelings out there to be trampled on again with him. Let him sit and stew in his wife's narcism. He'll never feel important or loved as long as he is with her, and I imagine your son will be in the same boat.

    My son accused us last October of causing him heart problems! Now mind you, he has had slightly elevated blood pressure since he was a jr in highschool. He had been in to the dr. for being sick and we discovered it was slightly elevated. The doctor monitored him a few times and it did come down a bit, but it was far too high for his age. He has an anger management issue, and flies off the handle far too easy. In addition, he holds onto his anger and will hold a grudge. He has great difficulty in apologizing, and it was usually me who broke the ice with him whether it was my fault or not.

    Your son sounds like he is using you as the scapegoat for his wife causing him to have this condition. He can't face what the real reason is (like my son,) so he blames you. We're the only ones that they can live with blaming, since they know we will forgive them. I think in my sons case, his wife has also contributed to him believing it was us who caused his high blood pressure. She probably uses the fact that he has had it since late in highschool when he was till living at home with us, as the reason. Sad how easily he is convinced of such nonsense.

    My son doesn't remember me making sure his blood pressure was regularly checked, nor does he remember me trying to teach him to let his anger go, to lower his salt intake and start exercising more. We got a long wonderfully through college until he started dating our dil just out of college. Why would we be the ones to cause this? I'm sure he has conjured this up in his own mind as well, believing that had we just given in to every demand that he'd be happy with normal blood pressure.

    You can see that your son exagerated just to make you feel bad, so what else is he exagerating? He may have Crohns, but how bad is it? Also, I believe Crohns is an auto-immune disease, but I'm not sure. Even if it is auto-immune tho, auto-immune can be triggered from too much stress, but they don't know all the causes of these diseases.

    My vote would be to not send anything to your son, since he will probably turn it around and use it against you as my son will. I will have a very difficult time not sending some form of birthday wish, but I know I have to stick to my guns. Let him feel what total isolation is, and if he can truly be happy with this, then the more power to him. The thing is I don't believe he is happy, or will ever be truly happy as long as he is married to his destructive woman.

    anniebal

    PS...what part of the country are you in?

  • imaginny
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    anniebal, About eight years ago (after five years of estrangement) I searched and found my daughter and SIL's website which she used to post photos and news of theirs. Like you, I felt some comfort from knowing something of her life and having that remote connection. She would not update it often. I would check it every few months for updates.

    In 2005 she discovered my posts on Family Rifts as well as my website and blog. She accused me of stalking her. She asserted that I was visiting her website daily. (Hardly!) She wrote long diatribes apparently aimed at cousins or unknown relatives, warning them that I would try to contact them and telling them not to give me her phone number. Since I hadn't ever tried to contact them nor had I tried to call her or contact her, these warnings of her were odd. Nor was it clear who was being warned or why. Also, she had her phone number posted on the internet as a contact number for her business. I never called the number. It was odd that she was telling the world not to give me her number when it was already out there on the internet.

    In 2005 she contacted me through email due to her discovery of my posts on Family Rifts, my website on Estrangement, and blog and we proceeded to have yet again (the first being in 1995) an argument which involved her denigrating me and telling me she didn't love me and how she didn't want to have anything to do with me. When someone I love talks to me that way, it infuriates me. I was hurt and absolutely infuriated. It was at that time that I learned too that she was diagnosed with bipolar disorder.

    Months later, after reading more really bizarre stuff (sent to me by friends) that she wrote about her father and stepmother, it sunk in how sick she is. She had set up a blog with the specific purpose of writing about estrangement, kind of a parallel to mine, and she continues to write there. Much of what she writes has nothing to do with estrangement.

    As for jealousy, she seemed to have been very jealous of her stepbrother whom she saw as getting much more positive attention from her father than she got.

    One thing that stands out about my daughter is that she seems to have a remarkable need for attention. This is something that I was not aware of when she was a kid. She has even said things that acknowledge her interest in getting attention. She does have an attitude of "yes, this is all about me." Empathy for others is not one of her strong suits.

    I guess that some who read this might wonder why the heck a parent would continue to care about grown kids who feel and act like this. I ask myself that too. When they talk about a "mother's love", they aren't kidding! Sometimes I wish I could turn it off and walk away emotionally from her entirely and not think about her any more. But it seems as though it is wired into me. Which is really strange because now I don't even know this woman who is my daughter. So I love someone whom I no longer know. I don't love her as much as I once did. It lessens over time. I'm not sure what I feel now. I know that it is still easy to cry over the loss. I still feel grief. Maybe I grieve someone who never existed? Maybe I grieve for the dream of what might have been?

    Ginny

  • garden60
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you for your responses and telling me what I know is right. My son sent the email and he will have to fix it. I did not respond at all to his nastiness about no contact. It will be hard but I will let him wonder why I didn't send a b/day card.

    I have the full support of my family - my sister/husband, 3 adult children and many friends who have written my son off because of the way he has treated my husband and me and his brother. None of them have contacted him in any way and I know he hurts from this. Our families were unbelievably close and when I told him at his wedding that family was important, his response was "no, only happiness is important" - translation - whatever it takes to have her as my wife.

    My niece just gave birth to her second child and she did not notify my son. When he finds that out, it will be hurtful to him. In all of this, what he didn't expect is that the rest of the family would react the way they did. He thought his wife could be nasty to me and I wouldn't share her behavior with my sister. Wrong!

    Okay, Anniebal, no b/day cards to our sons!

    I live in Minneapolis, MN

  • anniebal
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ginny, your post brings up many feelings insdie of me. I can hear my son finding my post someday and claiming I was doing the same thing as your daughter did to you. Even if you were visiting her site daily, what would be so weird about that? Your her mother, and you never see her anymore. Do they think that we turn on and off our feelings like they have? They won't know until they have kids, and those kids turn around and hurt them, just how it feels to be a mom and a parent. One never scores the touchdown or spikes the football who is a parent, we never reach the endzone! I love that analogy which is from the movie Parenthood. I've always remembered it, so obviously it made a big impact on me. There are no truer words either, especially for moms.

    I feel so badly for you with how your daughter denigrated you, and warned the entire family about you doing something that you didn't & would never do. Do you think anyone was actually ever warned? Did anyone ever contact you from your family regarding her warning, perhaps she never actually sent them?

    When you mentioned how upset she was about you getting her phone number, or knowing it, when all along it is posted on her website, it reminds me of my son. About 5 wks ago I sent my son an e-card telling him I loved him. I thought (foolishly,) that he might send me just a short email telling me he loved me back, but no such thing. A week later I called him at the new office he was working at (which I learned about through his younger brother.) I knew it was a big office bldg and that the calls would probably be put through a switchboard. I was hoping this was the case since then he wouldn't know it was me calling (since he screens my calls of course!) I called him, but my timing was terrible. I picked the lunch hour (duh!) and so I decided to leave him a very short message. My message was low key, actually sad, and I simply stated that I was surprised I didn't hear something from him telling me he loved me too after the e card I sent him. I also stated that I wondered if he still had a heart? Later that day I got a very angry e-mail from him asking just how I got his number at his new office?!! What, does he think his business is unlisted? It wouldn't be a very good company if it was! He scolded me for calling him at work, and told me to never do that again, and to never leave him 'that' type of message again, ever. It was interesting when he emphasized 'that' type of message, since it was not angry, yelling, crying, it was simply in a sad voice. He had the nerve to sign it with love and his name! As if I believe for one minute right now anyways, that he has any love for me. If there is love, it is buried so deep he doesn't even know it exists! I certainly found the phone thing interesting between you and your daughter, and me and my son.

    I think I stated a while back that my son admitted to me when he was a jr or sr in highschool that he was jealous of his kid brother growing up. His younger brother has had type 1 diabetes since age 3, which requires daily rituals like no other, especially when they are that young. As good a mom as I know I was, there is no way I could give equal time with his brother having that medical condition. I told my son when he mentioned it that I understood how he must have felt, and that his feelings were very normal (which I know they were.)

    I feel my estragned son also needs lots of attention, and his mother certainly gave it to him. There were too many times that I didn't say I couldn't do something because he wanted to do it right then. It didn't matter (most of the time,) what I was doing. I would re-arrange everything, drop what I was doing just to please him. I knew he would get his nose out of joint easily, and then hold a pouty grudge if I didn't go when he wanted. I did it because I loved him, but I didn't see the damage it was doing by allowing him to control me like he did. Still, we had a very tight relationship, or so I thought.

    It's interesting hearing you say Imaginny, that you don't know who your daughter is anymore. Actually, it's good to hear someone say that because the other night on facebook, I found my niece had posted pictures of a party she had had with her cousins in February. One of the pics included my niece with my son and his wife. I used to melt when I saw my son's smile, since it could literally light up a room. Yet, when I looked at it, I felt strangely disconnected. I know how much I love him, since I cry and think about him all the time, yet there is something gone now. I doubt whatever is missing, that I'll ever get it back again. Things have changed now, and as they say, you can't put back the hands on a clock. I almost felt guilty for my lack of feeling over seeing him in the picture. Maybe it's a self protection mechanism, since this is so extremely painful for all of us. Eventually one has to put up a shield or they could literally go mad.

    I wonder if your daughter doesn't have borderline personality disorder? That sounds closer to the signs she is exhibiting then bi-polar, but you would know more than I.

    I have a niece who had bi-polar but she acted completely different. In fact, it was so elaborate I could never even attempt to explain it here. She went into an entire fantasy where she made up things about herself, about how famous she was getting, all this money she was making, etc.etc. until her parents found out it was all a ruse. Mind you, this went on for 2 years! Though we were suspicious a few times (me, hubby & brother,) we never thought it was all made up. She caused her parents to have to declare bankruptcy because of her pretend lifestyle. To me, it almost sounded more psychotic then bi-polar, but, they said it was bi-polar and have treated her accordingly ever since. I'm not convinced however that I got the whole, true story regarding her condition. However, she is married now, with 2 sons, and appears very happy & normal other than some medical problems she is currently having. I don't notice anything strange in her mental area.

    Garden60, I am glad that you've re-thought your impulse to send him a card, or message. Now be prepared to tell me the same thing next month when I start tinkering about how I should send my son a card! I'm not kidding either, since I know it will be difficult.

    You are so lucky that your family stood up for you all right away. Ours is just coming around to supporting us outwardly now. Up to this point my son & dil have had the nerve to show up to every family get together, treat us like dirt, and carry on with our brothers and sisters! You'd think just one of our relatives would have called and talked to him, or let him know he wasn't welcome over when we were there. It took me being very hurt in February attending my bil's party to set my siblings on the right path. I told them right out that I'd never be in that position again, and if they want us to come they won't invite our son. My hubby's side has gotten the same message. You know, one of our sisters seems more concerned that he continue liking her, then she is about the relationship we have with him! Wouldn't she think that it's more important that he like us? So she is thinking that if they don't include them to get togethers where we are at, and if they get angry at them for it, that they will never forgive them. She thinks that we'll reconcile, but he won't want to see the rest of the family. Even if that is the case, in the end, shouldn't our feelings and relationship come first and foremost?

    I'm glad to hear your niece is supporting you as well. This is exactly what I wish the cousins would do, but since nobody will say my son and dil have acted improperly, or let their kids no how he is treating us, they all still do things together! It kills me, since I have always told my kids when one of my nieces or nephews have done something wrong, especially to their parents. It didn't prejudice my kids against their cousins, it just made them aware that what they were doing to their parents or in their life was wrong. How come we can't expect the same thing?

    My hubby keeps telling me that just because we would act a certain way, doesn't me we can expect other people to do the same. But this is family, doesn't family stick together, thick and thin? The sister who is so worried about my son being angry at her, is also worried that what if my son & dil get mad at the cousins and won't see them? She thinks how awful that would be. However, in my opinion, if my son does isolate himself to that degree, it may have more of an impact on his waking up and seeing the real picture. Perhaps one of his cousins, or all of them could express that it doesn't need to be this way, that he should be able to have all his family in his life. Am I wrong here?

    I am so confused with how our famililes have treated us over this, I really don't know what to think. Some times, I'd just like to isolate myself from all of them.

    Has anyone else suffered in the marriage department over this issue? I really feel that this is taking a toll on our marriage. If I talk too much about it, I get accused of sounding like a broken record! I have never said anything that degrading to things my husband has wanted to talk about...ever! I told him this to his face the other day because I just couldn't believe how he was treating my feelings. I told him that I can't walk away and pretend it's gone and I don't care anymore. Men and woman are completely different, and my husband is much happier never talking about our son, and being angry. I know he is deeply hurt and angry, but he handles it so differently than I do. I wonder if I'll ever feel better?

    I can relate to what you say Ginny, as far as, why do we keep holding on? Even if we were to get back together again, it won't be the same.

    Garden60, I live in Chicago! We aren't that far from each other, maybe if we stay in touch, we can get together someday?

    Anniebal

  • anniebal
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ginny, your post brings up many feelings insdie of me. I can hear my son finding my post someday and claiming I was doing the same thing as your daughter did to you. Even if you were visiting her site daily, what would be so weird about that? Your her mother, and you never see her anymore. Do they think that we turn on and off our feelings like they have? They won't know until they have kids, and those kids turn around and hurt them, just how it feels to be a mom and a parent. One never scores the touchdown or spikes the football who is a parent, we never reach the endzone! I love that analogy which is from the movie Parenthood. I've always remembered it, so obviously it made a big impact on me. There are no truer words either, especially for moms.

    I feel so badly for you with how your daughter denigrated you, and warned the entire family about you doing something that you didn't & would never do. Do you think anyone was actually ever warned? Did anyone ever contact you from your family regarding her warning, perhaps she never actually sent them?

    When you mentioned how upset she was about you getting her phone number, or knowing it, when all along it is posted on her website, it reminds me of my son. About 5 wks ago I sent my son an e-card telling him I loved him. I thought (foolishly,) that he might send me just a short email telling me he loved me back, but no such thing. A week later I called him at the new office he was working at (which I learned about through his younger brother.) I knew it was a big office bldg and that the calls would probably be put through a switchboard. I was hoping this was the case since then he wouldn't know it was me calling (since he screens my calls of course!) I called him, but my timing was terrible. I picked the lunch hour (duh!) and so I decided to leave him a very short message. My message was low key, actually sad, and I simply stated that I was surprised I didn't hear something from him telling me he loved me too after the e card I sent him. I also stated that I wondered if he still had a heart? Later that day I got a very angry e-mail from him asking just how I got his number at his new office?!! What, does he think his business is unlisted? It wouldn't be a very good company if it was! He scolded me for calling him at work, and told me to never do that again, and to never leave him 'that' type of message again, ever. It was interesting when he emphasized 'that' type of message, since it was not angry, yelling, crying, it was simply in a sad voice. He had the nerve to sign it with love and his name! As if I believe for one minute right now anyways, that he has any love for me. If there is love, it is buried so deep he doesn't even know it exists! I certainly found the phone thing interesting between you and your daughter, and me and my son.

    I think I stated a while back that my son admitted to me when he was a jr or sr in highschool that he was jealous of his kid brother growing up. His younger brother has had type 1 diabetes since age 3, which requires daily rituals like no other, especially when they are that young. As good a mom as I know I was, there is no way I could give equal time with his brother having that medical condition. I told my son when he mentioned it that I understood how he must have felt, and that his feelings were very normal (which I know they were.)

    I feel my estragned son also needs lots of attention, and his mother certainly gave it to him. There were too many times that I didn't say I couldn't do something because he wanted to do it right then. It didn't matter (most of the time,) what I was doing. I would re-arrange everything, drop what I was doing just to please him. I knew he would get his nose out of joint easily, and then hold a pouty grudge if I didn't go when he wanted. I did it because I loved him, but I didn't see the damage it was doing by allowing him to control me like he did. Still, we had a very tight relationship, or so I thought.

    It's interesting hearing you say Imaginny, that you don't know who your daughter is anymore. Actually, it's good to hear someone say that because the other night on facebook, I found my niece had posted pictures of a party she had had with her cousins in February. One of the pics included my niece with my son and his wife. I used to melt when I saw my son's smile, since it could literally light up a room. Yet, when I looked at it, I felt strangely disconnected. I know how much I love him, since I cry and think about him all the time, yet there is something gone now. I doubt whatever is missing, that I'll ever get it back again. Things have changed now, and as they say, you can't put back the hands on a clock. I almost felt guilty for my lack of feeling over seeing him in the picture. Maybe it's a self protection mechanism, since this is so extremely painful for all of us. Eventually one has to put up a shield or they could literally go mad.

    I wonder if your daughter doesn't have borderline personality disorder? That sounds closer to the signs she is exhibiting then bi-polar, but you would know more than I.

    I have a niece who had bi-polar but she acted completely different. In fact, it was so elaborate I could never even attempt to explain it here. She went into an entire fantasy where she made up things about herself, about how famous she was getting, all this money she was making, etc.etc. until her parents found out it was all a ruse. Mind you, this went on for 2 years! Though we were suspicious a few times (me, hubby & brother,) we never thought it was all made up. She caused her parents to have to declare bankruptcy because of her pretend lifestyle. To me, it almost sounded more psychotic then bi-polar, but, they said it was bi-polar and have treated her accordingly ever since. I'm not convinced however that I got the whole, true story regarding her condition. However, she is married now, with 2 sons, and appears very happy & normal other than some medical problems she is currently having. I don't notice anything strange in her mental area.

    Garden60, I am glad that you've re-thought your impulse to send him a card, or message. Now be prepared to tell me the same thing next month when I start tinkering about how I should send my son a card! I'm not kidding either, since I know it will be difficult.

    You are so lucky that your family stood up for you all right away. Ours is just coming around to supporting us outwardly now. Up to this point my son & dil have had the nerve to show up to every family get together, treat us like dirt, and carry on with our brothers and sisters! You'd think just one of our relatives would have called and talked to him, or let him know he wasn't welcome over when we were there. It took me being very hurt in February attending my bil's party to set my siblings on the right path. I told them right out that I'd never be in that position again, and if they want us to come they won't invite our son. My hubby's side has gotten the same message. You know, one of our sisters seems more concerned that he continue liking her, then she is about the relationship we have with him! Wouldn't she think that it's more important that he like us? So she is thinking that if they don't include them to get togethers where we are at, and if they get angry at them for it, that they will never forgive them. She thinks that we'll reconcile, but he won't want to see the rest of the family. Even if that is the case, in the end, shouldn't our feelings and relationship come first and foremost?

    I'm glad to hear your niece is supporting you as well. This is exactly what I wish the cousins would do, but since nobody will say my son and dil have acted improperly, or let their kids no how he is treating us, they all still do things together! It kills me, since I have always told my kids when one of my nieces or nephews have done something wrong, especially to their parents. It didn't prejudice my kids against their cousins, it just made them aware that what they were doing to their parents or in their life was wrong. How come we can't expect the same thing?

    My hubby keeps telling me that just because we would act a certain way, doesn't me we can expect other people to do the same. But this is family, doesn't family stick together, thick and thin? The sister who is so worried about my son being angry at her, is also worried that what if my son & dil get mad at the cousins and won't see them? She thinks how awful that would be. However, in my opinion, if my son does isolate himself to that degree, it may have more of an impact on his waking up and seeing the real picture. Perhaps one of his cousins, or all of them could express that it doesn't need to be this way, that he should be able to have all his family in his life. Am I wrong here?

    I am so confused with how our famililes have treated us over this, I really don't know what to think. Some times, I'd just like to isolate myself from all of them.

    Has anyone else suffered in the marriage department over this issue? I really feel that this is taking a toll on our marriage. If I talk too much about it, I get accused of sounding like a broken record! I have never said anything that degrading to things my husband has wanted to talk about...ever! I told him this to his face the other day because I just couldn't believe how he was treating my feelings. I told him that I can't walk away and pretend it's gone and I don't care anymore. Men and woman are completely different, and my husband is much happier never talking about our son, and being angry. I know he is deeply hurt and angry, but he handles it so differently than I do. I wonder if I'll ever feel better?

    I can relate to what you say Ginny, as far as, why do we keep holding on? Even if we were to get back together again, it won't be the same.

    Garden60, I live in Chicago! We aren't that far from each other, maybe if we stay in touch, we can get together someday?

    Anniebal

  • garden60
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Anniebal - your message had so much of what I think all of us mothers are feeling. As my sister once said, there is something about that ambilical cord that forms a different relationship with a child than a father's relationship with that child. Men and women are truly different in situations like this.

    Our minister gave a sermon one Sunday on when men feel stress or pain, they retrieve to their cave (i.e. garage) but women retreat to Starbucks to talk with friends. How true is that?

    I told my husband one time I wanted to just sell everything and move to Texas. He didn't like that idea and said to stop rehashing what could have happened because he feels no matter what we did or didn't do, the outcome would be the same since our DIL is such a nasty person. He also keeps telling me to stop trying to think of ways to connect with our son, that one day he will be back. But I also feel it will never be the same - and it shouldn't because they are now adults - but it should be better when they become adults and I don't see that happening.

    Right from the beginning when my son would send me nasty emails, I would forward them to my sister and her adult children and ask their advice, or when my DIL would call demanding money, etc., again I would talk with my sister and she would in turn talk with her kids. My one nephew sent me an email saying "I don't know what's wrong with him; why doesn't he get his head out of his @$$ and start acting like an adult." I don't know what I would do without the support of my sister and husband and my niece and nephews.

    YOur situation is different because your family really has no clue about how badly he is treating you. I don't think my family would believe me if I hadn't forwarded the emails he wrote me - in his own words they saw a changed person.

    I would love to get together sometime. We all need to keep reminding each other that we need to stop trying to make contact and move on with our life. If and when I ever do hear from my son, I am going to use my "cheery" voice and just talk about how busy we have been, how much fun my husband and I are having, etc. - let him hear we aren't just pining away our lives waiting for his return.

  • imaginny
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    anniebal, In answer to your question about whether anyone in the family saw my daughter's warnings, I suspect that few saw them. At first I thought that there must be many cousins and aunts and uncles visiting her site and reading all of these messages that she was writing about her angry feelings towards her father (my ex), her stepmother, and me. Later I realized that there might be very few if any family reading it. No one ever contacted me. Although if anyone had, I would have been surprised because my ex has refused to talk to me since about 1986 and his family and I didn't stay in touch after I left.

    About borderline personality disorder ~~ I have thought of that as a possibility. Many who have borderline personality disorder also have bipolar disorder. So there is a chance of that. Since she dislikes mental health professionals and it is VERY unlikely that she is getting any sort of regular therapy other than medications for bipolar disorder, it is unlikely that she will be diagnosed with anything other than the bipolar. I doubt that she is being seen more often than is absolutely necessary to get prescriptions to treat her moods.

    Borderline personality disorder is a possibility. Her grandmother has suffered from borderline personality throughout her life and has been in treatment with psychiatrists for over fifty years. If my daughter has that disorder also, that would be something she would not want to accept as she knows how her grandmother is and would not want to accept having that condition too.

    I never thought that my daughter would suffer from either bipolar disorder or borderline personality disorder. We don't get to choose what we inherit in terms of good things and bad things. Some of these things are treatable but when the person can't even see the problem, then it is tough to impossible to treat the problem.

    As for family helping, I have been unlucky in that regard. I have tried several times during the estrangement to contact my ex to ask for his help. There is no one on my side of the family who was close to her. My ex would not reply. Until 2005 he had a relationship with her. Then things fell apart and she estranged him too. I wrote again when I heard about the estrangement from him. I asked him to contact me because I was concerned about the level of anger that she had. I thought that we could compare notes and talk about what was occurring with her and perhaps do something together to help her and/or each other. But he would not reply. If he loved her, then I thought that he would put aside his anger towards me and want to work together to do something to resolve what was occurring.

    In his case I think he found himself in a conflict between his wife and his daughter and he chose his wife. I am sure that his wife has a lot of thoughts and feelings about my daughter as the DIL from Hades. My daughter and her stepmother seem to have quite an undying hatred for each other.

    I agree that having a supportive family could be helpful. In my case I didn't have any options there due to a divorce over twenty years ago. Although I really don't know if anyone has any influence over my daughter. Over time she has cut herself off from more relatives. She is forty-one now. Someone in their twenties has more likelihood of change. By the time someone is in their forties, their personalities and attitudes are probably much harder to change ~~~ unless they really really want to change.

    Ginny

  • cornflakes
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm amazed at all of the posts. As soon as I find the time and feel a little better, I'll read each in its entirety. I appreciate so much the prayers and words of encouragement from each of you. The services were yesterday and yes, daughter and SIL sat next to us behind the curtain with other family members. However, they did not greet any guests and only spoke to those who approached them. My daughter was extremely cold, as was the SIL. I don't remember who said it, but someone wrote in a post that she would only attend to alleviate her own guilt. I believe this to be true. This is going to be a long, hard adjustment for me. I have an appointment with a counselor this afternoon. I haven't been to one since the onset of my daughter's abandonment, but this has "put me over the edge." I'm bruised and battered inside. Life is just a whisp...a whisper, it's precious and gone too fast. Oh, if my daughter could comprehend that. Things would be so different.

  • anniebal
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Gardem60, I would love for us to get together since we are in such close proximity. Maybe we could even meet half way some time since this would be about 3 hrs of driving each? Summer would be a great idea? What is your schedule like, are you working full/part time, etc??

    You know we kept our families informed every time something new popped in the our lives regarding our son. It started from the time he dated up until the end of last summer. Every time we told people what she said I had done 'this time' they were shocked! They knew it was a bad situation since most of my family members (on both sides,) told me how good I was at acting on my sons wedding day. They told me how no one would have known how upset I was at the event. I saw it as the end of our relationship with our son, but I never would have guessed that it would be with him completely out of our life.

    Like I said I told everyone every step of the way what new thing I had done to 'hurt her very deeply,' yet they don't seem capable of acting cool to this girl. My one SIL did give her the cold shoulder this past x-mas when my son decided not to see us but instead spend it at his grandma's with the entire side of my husbands family! This infuriated me that they allowed him to come. How much more would it hit home that he was without his family on the day if they would have refused him coming over with the way things were between him and us? This has been a huge problem for us, and I feel very let down and abandoned. It's almost as if my son is more important than we are or our feelings. Thank goodness my one SIL didn't say one word to her that day, since that is the message she and he should be getting.

    Soon he will be told that he is not invited to mother's day at hubby's sisters house this year. She is struggling with this because she is the one who is so afraid he won't like her, and will be mad at her. Her feelings are really the least of my concern right now, and it is hard to even hear her state those concerns w/o getting angry.

    Hubbys mom's 80th b-day is this summer and we're already making plans how to celebrate. The sis who gave dil the cold shoulder is going to send him a letter that all 3 sisters will sign stating that they are not being included because it is too hurtful for his mom and dad to be around him, and that they support our feelings in this matter. She is going to send me a copy to read before she sends it, so at least I get to see how strong of language it is. If it's too soft I plan on letting them know.

    Why wasn't our families opinion effected by all the things we told them that our son & dil had done to us? Why did they continue to openly greet them never saying anything about his behavior? FTLOG, the only one who said anything at all is the nealy 80 year old grandma, and now I think she is getting snubbed by he and my dil. I don't think he is seeing her nearly as much, and that just blows my mind being that it's his grandma, and the only living grandparent he has! All she stated to him was that he should apologize to me regarding what he had said to me the night of the big blow up. Eventually he used a very low way of doing so, putting it an email reply to me sorta of like a 'oh, by the way.' My hubby said I opened the door to that, and I know he is right, but I would never have thought that that is how low my son would go.

    Ginny, at least you must have some solace knowing that your daughter is probably acting this way because of her disorder, not because you did something wrong, or she just doesn't love you. I think I could accept it more if I thought he had a mental condition. My hubby and I have often talked that if we found out my dil officially has a mental disorder, we could be much more compassionate. Since I dealt heavily with this matter being raised with a mom who was withdrawn from life from the time I was 8, I certainly could sympathize with anyone I know is suffering. I did warn my kids about the mental illness (depression, etc.) that ran on my moms side so that they'd always be looking for it in case they started feeling bad. I doubt my son thinks he has a mental condition, he just thinks he is depressed because of his awful parents and the way we raised him.

    Since my son is still in his 20's, I am and was hoping that family support could still help him out of his situation before it's completely beyond help. I do think it reaches a point, as with you daughter, that they are too old and have been set in this thought process too long to change.

    Garden60, it's funny to hear you state that you told your husband you wanted to just pack up everything and move to Texas! I have told my husband a couple of times that I feel like I just need to move, to get away from here. Hubby always reminds me of our other son who loves and needs us deserpately. I couldn't leave my younger son, besides loving him too much, I worry so much about his continuing battle for control over his diabetes. I know that disease like the back of my hand, and he relies on me for my support and knowledge. I'm as close as it gets to knowing what it's like to have that disease. My husband traveled out of town almost every week since my kids were born. He'd be gone 3,4 and 5 days at a time, so I had to learn to manage everything myself and then teach my husband. My hubby would come to me with questions when I'd go out for the day. Of course no one who loves being a mom objects to going to any length to help their children, it is just a no brainer, or a given that we will.

    Ginny, didn't your husband leave you, or was it a mutal divorce? Why is he so angry at you? I can't believe he would abandon trying to help his daughter? Like you said, you would think he'd be able to put his thoughts and differences with you aside, and work with you to help the one thing you both mutually love unconditionally. Odd.

    Cornflakes, it was me who stated she would come to the funeral simply to alleviate her own guilt, I'm not happy that this is what you feel she did though. I was hoping that perhaps this would be a turn around for her, but after you told me how she acted when you were in the hospital with high blood pressure and heart rate, I thought there is no feeling left in this girl that she is aware of. It's buried so deep that she doesn't feel it anymore, and probably won't until smoething terrible happens to you. I feel this will eventually happen with my son towards me, if it hasn't already. This is why my husband & I have both agreed that if something happens to either one of us, that no matter what, he will not be allowed to attend our funeral if things have not changed for the better between us in some way. I will not have him come and being able to alleviate his own guilt for past hurts he has caused by convincing himself that all is well because he came to our funeral! It may sound cold, but that is tha place I have reached, and I won't change it.

    I am so happy your going to your counselor today! It isn't going to be an immediate fix of course (since I'm still going and it has been 6 months!) however, it does help to go there and talk. I know how hard you were struggling with this and still are, but you deserve to be happy and move on with your life. You have so much love in your heart to offer, that you need to find another way to express it that appreciates your effort. I know your bruised and battered because that is exactly how I feel. I agree completely about how short life is, and have tried to express this to my son, especially when we were still talking (but arguing) over the situation last June. He either doesn't get it, or thinks I was trying to manipulate him to come back with dumping guilt on him. Of course WE ALL know how short life is, since most of us have lost our parents or other loved ones. Life experience has taught us that it's too short to let idiot things separate us, yet my son hasn't and probably won't learn that lesson until it is too late for him to do something about it. Maybe even then he won't care, since I could never ever have imagined in my wildest dream that he was capable of doing what he has.

    Garden60, what began your situation again? Was it all the dil with ridiculous requests and demands? How did he insult your youngest son again, I know it was similar to how my son insulted his younger brother, but I'm too lazy to go back and look for it.

    Annniebal

    PS...off to take my adorable little dog that I got from an adoption shelter for a walk. Now here is an animal that is loyal to the end, and earnestly loves you for absolutely no reason other than the fact that I take care of him. He will be good therapy for me.

  • love2garden22
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow, I'm so glad I've found this discussion again. (I had posted on the old one and then lost it when it closed up.)To make a long story short:
    My estranged daughter broke up with her BF at Thanksgiving last year and moved back in with us. This was great for a while, but now she's staying out all night and not being up front with us about a lot of things. I finally told her she had to find another place to live (she's not paying rent), or quit partying. She decided to leave. My hubby and I are taking it much better this time around, we know the drill. We actually talked about it all day today and came up with our individual mantras (i.e. we did nothing to deserve this, etc) to get through it this time. We decided that after today we weren't going to dwell on it (the terrible feelings the estrangement brings) anymore and let it rule our lives the way it did last time.
    I see so much commonality among the posts: feelings of guilt, confusion, hurt and anger. It isn't suppose to be this way between parents and their children, but it probably happens a lot more than we know. Normal is an illusion.
    Well, I'm not going to cry in my milk this time around, but I'm still glad you guys are here.

  • imaginny
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    anniebal, In answer to your question about my ex's anger towards me, he was angry and bitter that I left him. He remarried within two years. I think if he was happy, he would forgive me for leaving him. It's been over twenty years. It is possible that his second marriage is not a particularly happy one. (He might even blame me for that ~~~ if I hadn't left, he wouldn't have had to remarry!)

    We had married when we were young and were poorly matched. The marriage lasted for eighteen years because I was not smart enough and courageous enough to leave earlier. Then a friend died too young while she was married to an abusive husband. That brought home to me that we only have one life and then I gathered up the courage to make the hard decision to leave. He never has forgiven me.

    cornflakes, I hope the counselor helps. That is good that you are going again. I'm sorry to hear that your daughter showed no compassion or support for you.

    love2garden, Hi! Your attitude sounds quite healthy! Not crying in our milk sounds like a good idea! I doubt that I will ever be able to put my daughter out of my mind but I am able to enjoy life and get other things done and go on without this being on my mind all the time. It might not sound like that when I write here in this discussion.

    Annibal, BTW I have birds instead of dogs. I have parrots. :-)

    Ginny

  • garden60
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Our estrangement w/son escalated every time my DIL made demands on us. When she called to tell me where the groom's dinner was to be, I told her that is up to the groom's parents; when she called to tell us, and I quote, "are you going to pay for the groom's dinner or not because it will be where I want it to be, I am sick and tired of your family traditions, we don't need your sister and husband as host and hostess at our wedding, and you should give us more money for our wedding than my parents because you don't have any children at home and my parents have 2 teenagers to raise". When I told her I wanted to talk to my son about this, she said I didn't need to because he agreed with everything she said. That's when my son called, we told him his grandparents are rolling over in their graves with the way he is behaving, he said he thought they would be very proud of him (not!) and hung up on us; then sent an email to my husband, other son and me saying we were not to come to the groom's dinner, he no longer wanted his brother as his best man and we could not invite anyone to the wedding.

    At Xmas my sister called him to invite them to join all of us (he knew we would be there); he left her a voicemail saying they would not be attending.

    Then I sent him a hote in Jan. inviting him to have lunch and "catch up". That's when he sent the note saying he wanted no more phone calls, voicemails, emails, birthday cards, holiday cards or anything from me and he would let me know when he felt up to having a realtionship with us again.

    Anniebal - regarding Mother's Day - have your SIL include in her note that you and your husband/son will be there and they would love to have him and his wife there, but that between now and then she expects him to rejoin his family and caution him that this will be a HAPPY day; no nastiness toward anyone. Really encourage her to set the tone and make him see this will be "her" day to be in charge and he needs to follow some "nice" rules.

    The reason my family stuck with me is because they saw the emails from him; otherwise they would never have believed it. Just yesterday my sister told me that again.

    One of the hardest things for me is that a dear friend (we were roommates, in each others weddings, etc.) has a son and daughter, both of whom were recently married, and they all have so much fun together and are all very close and the in-laws spend time with them at their lake home, etc. And she does like to rub it in to me. I find myself distancing myself from her because I just don't need to hear about their closeness all the time.

    My husband was diagnosed with diagetes a year ago. We are finding it hard to understand, when he tests 3 times a day, that it doesn't seem to matter much what he has eaten or not eaten as to why sometimes the numbers are high and other times they are low. We were told raw veggies like carrots and fruit are really not that good for him, or the beef stick or cheese stick he will grab in-between meals are bad. Any advice on how he can keep his numbers more even?

    Annniebal - would love to meet this summer. Yes, I work full time.

    Today is my other son's birthday, the 14th is mine, and my estranged son is the 30th. This will be a tough month because my son won't be celebrating or recognizing the family birthdays with us, but I will work on embracing everyone else who loves me. Maybe if I don't acknowledge my son's birthday (like he told me not to do in his email), he will see I took him seriously and rethink his actions. I am sure both he and his wife think I will cave and send them a card (and money) for their birthdays.

  • sniffles07
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    garden60,
    I just kills me how sons & daughters can wipe their parents out of their lives entirely. Is that gf/bf that important that they could break their parents hearts? I will never entirely understand it.

  • love2garden22
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Ginny for the response. Does your DH have high blood pressure as well as diabetes? When all this started with my daughter last year, I had borderline diabetes and high BP. I changed my diet to include everything whole wheat and high fiber. Both has dropped to safer ranges. I hope this helps...

    Our daughter (22 yrs old) has been back out of the house for a week now. While she was with us, she almost stopped working altogether and was partying all the time. (She wasn't paying rent, I was washing her clothes, cooking meals, and her Dad was taking care of her dog.) I snapped when she still wasn't home by 9:00 a.m. last Saturday morning after an all nighter Friday night, so I told her to just stay where ever she was at (I text msg her cell phone - modern huh :) )
    We found out that since she has to find herself a real place to live again, she's back at work full time. So if nothing else, it was worth it for that. At least for those hours she's at work, she's not partying. It's so hard because I really wanted her to do something positive with herself.
    Now she's posted on her my space page that she's 'homeless'?? She does have a bit of money in the bank that she hasn't blown yet so she could have found a motel or apt by now. But I honestly thought her partying friends would have let her sleep on the couch. Anyway, I did offer for her to come back if she could straighten herself up, but no takers.
    Now the hard part - sticking to my guns even though I feel awful about it. I'm really hoping that if she has to support herself she'll think twice about her freeloading friends. But in any event, I know from past experience that this is just the beginning of a long 'no talking to the parents' spell. What always surprises me is the intensity of her hatred/anger. She totally forgets absolutely everything we've done for her. Ah well, here I go ranting again, and I promised myself I wouldn't......

  • imaginny
    Original Author
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    love2garden, It's garden60's husband who has diabetes. Maybe you knew that? I wasn't sure if you had me mixed up with garden60 or not.

    Your daughter is so young. She may just have a lot of growing up to do. Her description of herself as homeless might be a bit of "drama". She's not so homeless that she doesn't have a Myspace page!

    I think in the long run she'll respect you for not letting her continue to get away with so much. I'll bet she knows that she's been out of line and was pushing the limits.

    Ginny

  • anniebal
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Garden60, I want you to know that I am copying your letter to forward to my hubby's email! He just has to read this for himself, because it is so like my situation with our dil that it's surreal. My dil wasn't quite as nasty as yours, but she was right up there, nearly neck and neck. Yes, it is the groom's parents who get to pick the place for the rehearsal dinner as well as any plans for it. Yet, my dil also took that small part I had to play away from me, on the sly! She lied to me, & my son, and of course he bought it as he buys every single thing she tells him. It's as if he is hypnotized....or more accurately, brainwashed!

    It is going to be a tough month for you! However, with your younger sons b-day now also, I would focus all your attention on him. I can't believe the way your son snubbed his brother at the wedding! My son also couldn't choose my youngest son to be his only best man, so he chose two best men! I had never heard of this, and it infuriated me that my son would not just have his younger brother be his only bestman, which is certainly usually the case. I know it was dil. In fact my son told me that dil told him that many grooms choose two best men! This is when I expressed surprise about him doing this. We had to tell our son hours before the wedding that his brother should at least be the first down the isle, and not his best friend. Imagine that we had to tell him to do that?!! At least he listened to us on that one. I'm surprised dil didn't step in and put her foot down that it wasn't going to be that way. My son still had part of his brain in his possession at that time.

    The similarities between our two sons is hard to believe! I know I've said this over and over again, but I just can't get over it. There are many similarities with all of our stories to be sure, but ours is the same sex, with a younger brother, a NPD dil, etc. I imagine many of the children being talked about on this forum are NPDs too, or else their mates are. They can also have a mental illness such as Ginny's daughter.

    Garden60, as far as your husband goes, here are my thoughts. I've never heard carrots or raw vegetables are not good for them! They are some of the best things they can eat, and especially in between meals since the carbohydrates are so low! Fruit has a higher carbohydrate than most veggies, so that will need to be worked into the diet, unless of course he is having a low blood sugar. If he's having a low blood sugar, that is an excellent time to have a small glass of juice followed up by a piece of fresh fruit. Fruits have a wide range of variation regarding carbohydrate too. For instance, Strawberries are very low in carbs and high in fiber. As a fruit exchange, one can have lots more strawberries than say grapes. I'd be happy to share my knowledge with you if you'd like. I've been doing this for over 20 years and know it all too well. I just wrote a person today giving them information and advice on how to handle a newly diagnosed little girl. I volunteer to do this since I remember all to well how difficult it was when our baby was diagnosed. It is my chance to help others.

    A cheese stick or beef stick is certainly not a bad choice as long as it is not the snack he has every time. The biggest reason behind either of those two snack would be the fat and salt content. Protein has a very small effect on the blood sugar since it is digested very slowly, thus avoiding any spikes. In fact, when my son was very little, we would always give him a fairly high protein snack to make it through the night since it lasted so much longer than anything else. He still does this after he has worked out, or just been overly active. With all the low fat and low sodium items out there, I wouldn't be surprised if you couldn't get the beef sticks with less sodium. Even if you don't, one beef stick is certainly low enough not to worry about it, it's only if he intends on sitting down and eating a handful or more that would cause concern. I know you can get low fat cheese, which would eliminate at least some of the problem.

    Is your husband on insulin, or just diet? If he's on insulin, there are many things I can recommend to help his numbers improve. If he is on diet only (or using pills that boost the amount of insulin his pancreas makes,) then I can still give advice, however it's much harder making your numbers good with diet alone.

    When he does have higher readings, tell him to drink plenty of water since this help flush the glucose out of his system quicker. Even modest exercise makes a huge difference, such as a stroll right after dinner, or leisurely bike ride.

    Let me know some of the details and I'll be happy to give more advice. If you'd like, you could post your email and I will send you the advice that way. I do understand if you don't want to post it at this forum though. The only reason I don't want to post mine is that I'm afraid that my son would find this site by doing a search for my yahoo address. This is exactly how I found out all the information about him, and I certainly don't want him reading anything I write here. If you have an email account that is less used, such as google mail, that would be a better choice. That's entirely up to you though.

    Hang in there with the difficult month you have. I think your making the right choice with the b-day card. From what I've read on this site, it doesn't seem to matter how many cards, phone calls, or other methods of communication we make, they are all rejected, ignored or not acknoweldged.

    anniebal

  • garden60
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Anniebal - I forwarded to my husband your words on diabetes and maybe he can help me figure out a way to send you my email. I, like you, do not want to post it for the same reasons.

    Reading and rereading our posts, it is so obvious that no matter what we try, i.e. calls, emails, cards, pay for the wedding, let our children live home rent free, kick them out, etc. - the outcomes are the same: they are estranged from us. While some of us have to hold their spouses partly to blame, our children are NOT blameless. In my case I think my son's wife has told him that by treating us mean he is showing us that he is an adult. She verbalized early on that she thought he was too close to his family.

    Therefore, let's support each other in trying a new tactic - they don't want to hear from us, fine. They won't. With support from each other, we can work to enjoy life as it was meant to be and let them figure out why they aren't hearing from us. Like a young lady at work told me when she was estranged from her mother, when her mother would call or email, she would not answer; but when her mother stopped all communication, she wondered why and it bothered her that her mom wasn't "trying" anymore. I guess that would be called "reverse psychology".

    I am going to ignore my son's b'day on 4/30, especially if he doesn't want to acknowlege mine on 4/14. Next week I have friends who want to take me to lunch to celebrate my birthday 4 out of 5 working days, my family wants to have a birthday brunch on Sunday, and I am already getting cards from other friends - so why am I not embracing all this attention and love from everyone? Because it isn't coming from my son. But I am working on getting past that.

    Let's all try new tactics since our old ones don't seem to give us anything other than pain and heartache.

  • love2garden22
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dear Ginny,
    Yes I did get you confused with Garden60, sorry.
    Thanks for the support, it really helps! I went back and reread your posts and found that your daughter has some of the problems mine does. When you say that you grieve, I empathize totally. I had to pack away everything that related to her (during the last estrangement period) so that I wouldn't see it on a daily basis. I want to forget, but I can't seem to, as much of my life was wrapped up raising her. How can you look back and not remember all those years? I constantly wonder what happened to the little girl I raised, where did she go (mentally), and will she ever reappear?
    You mentioned bipolar. I don't really understand what that is. My daughter has a good side that is sweet, loving, and caring, but for the last eight years or so it's been totally taken over by the 'evil twin'. I don't hold out much hope of ever seeing her sweet self again. She has the capability of totally ignoring us for months on end, including holidays, and then, for no apparent reason, she'll wonder what we're getting her for her birthday. She's super critical of our non materialistic attitude/lifestyle (everything we do, we try to do on a cash only basis or not at all) She calls us hippies and not in a nice way. More recently I've begin to wonder if the sweetness we thought we saw was a fake front, lip service if you will. She can really bring on the crocodile tears when she wants to. Maybe it was all wishful thinking on our part?
    How are you holding up? You mention a website about estrangement, could you tell me more? Today I have to start gathering up her things from the house and shed and putting them up front so she can come for them. This time I told her we are not going to box them up and carry them for her. Her last two moves since college we worked hard doing just that and cleaning up her filth and repairing the destruction her dog did, mostly without her help. Wow, it really helps to write this all down as a very different picture of her emerges....
    We used to blame her BF as the bad influence over her. He must have been what caused the snotty attitudes, right? But they have been broken up for six months now and we're right back to square one. We have to face the reality that it's been all her, all along, not some outside influence. DH says we really should be angry at the horrible way she treats us, and maybe anger would help after all.
    Well, thanks for listening....

  • karenj
    15 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi, everyone. Just a quick observation/opinion. Parents have a degree of control over their children. They give them guidlines that they are expected to adhere to. In short, parents become used to parenting. This control should become less and less as the child enters into adulthood. It can be very difficult for a parent to realize that they are no longer needed in the same way as they always have been, and since adulthood frequently coincides with a loving relationship with another, it becomes easy to be resentful of the one that is percieved to be the cause of the parents' sense of no longer feeling needed. The association is made. A newcomer to a family can also feel resentment if their loved one's parents question the abilities of a newly-formed relationship to thrive by offering too many uncalled-for opinions.
    I think that little resentments snowball and the son or daughter is then feels stuck between a rock and a hard place trying to keep peace.
    Your relationship with your son/daughter/parent/in/laws should evolve into a different, but no less loving one.
    Make allowances for mistakes in this new learning process.
    Just my opinion and hoping better times are ahead for all

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