I understand your feelings, my cousins, grandparents and bosses daughters are all vegetarian. All beacause or the slauter of animals. I personally have worked in a meat plant and hunt but also a nature lover and animal lover. I feel vegatables are living creatures too and you kill and hurt them when picked but one must eat. My point really is I dont think it matters how you raise your daughter as far as eating but also ensure she doesnt infridge it upon other people that eat meat. You dont want her upsetting other kids at school by telling them they are eating dead cows. Make sure she understands everyone is different and they just have different feelings. One can love animals and still eat meat although some people have a deeper feeling about it. As long as she understands that no big deal and when she is older it can be her choice if she chooses otherwise after her upbringing. If I was raised vegetarian I maybe one today.

Hi Bugs.
I wouldn't want my daughter to go up to other kids and say something like "You're eating dead cows, how disgusting". So, if that's what you meant I agree with you.

But, the know what: vegetarians don't do that, at least not the adult ones I know, and I know quite a few. A much more likely senerio is: an omnivore asks a vegetarian why she/he doesn't eat meat. And, the vegetarian replies honestly with something like: "Humans can be healthy without eating animals and I don't want to see the animals killed for my meal." That's the truth and there's nothing wrong with a vegetarian replying honestly like that. If my daughter embraces vegetarianism and feels that way and replies like that she has my blessing.

My experince is that adult vegetarians are usually quite discrete and go out of their way to avoid confrontation. But, kids might be less inhibited.

Bugs...I have been hearing the whole argument about killing fruits and vegetables all my life. I will not even respond to it.

Kyo San...I agree with you in so many ways. My son is 7, and is the most tender hearted kid I know. Last summer he was with some friends of his at McDonalds. He ordered the veggie happy meal and his friends got chicken nuggets. He asked me if he could try one. I hated the thought but told him it was his choice. At first he thought it was good but then took a drink and had the worst look on his face. I asked him about it later. He said as he was chewing it, he thought of the poor chicken. I am so happy to hear him say that on his own. I have never put those words in his mouth. We don't even discuss it all that much. I just thought you might appreciate that little story.

Have a great day,
Angela

Thanks for sharing that Angela.

Angela - we were walking through a field of young bullocks once (DD was 7) and she said to me "What a lovely feeling to know that we aren't EVER going to hurt them" That is only ONE of the many feel-good factors of being vegetarian IMO :>)

ShyladyUK, that is so true. What a great thing for her to say. :)

Angela

Vegetarianism is a great idea from a health perspective. I'm not sure I could support it from a philosophical perspective. Do you have any idea how many auto components are made from animal parts? Hundreds. Starting with adhesives and many more. So unless you don't own an auto we're all complicit in animal deaths for our own convenience. I do appreciate the sincerity of your convictions, but in a practical sense it's hard to remain pure.

Trish

I think you guys took me a bit wrong, I know everyone has opinions and I didnt say because a vegetable is eaten it is like killing a cow just that it is living too but we have to eat. All I meant is who cares how your child is raised as long as they respect another persons decision to eat as they are rasied.

Eating vegetarian is great for MANY reasons including: environment, health and animals rights.

No one has ever been able to explain to me which animals have rights. For example we are worried about housepets, seals, cows, certain turtles and eagles etc. Yet we swat flies and get rid of wasps. Chimpmunks are okay but not rats. Does it depend on how cute the animal is, the number of legs, size or weight? If it's pleasant or carries disease? If there are a lot of them or only a few?

Trish

Trish, what has that got to do with any of what we are talking about here??? To me ALL living things deserve to be respected and loved no matter what.

I don't KILL anything.

You don't kill pests in your house? How about bacteria? Those are living things, technically in the animal, not plant kingdom. I know it sounds silly, but I am just wondering where the line is drawn. Number of legs? Size of animal? Whether or not it is a threat? And of course as I stated earlier if you drive a car there are plenty of parts made from dead animals. You don't have to eat them to be part of the consumer society that kills them.

Trish

Cattle by products:

Pharmecuticals

Since cattle are organically similar to humans, our bodies easily accept medication or a treatment
made with animal components:

Blood factors (for treating hemophilia, killing viruses and making anti-rejection drugs)

Chymotrypsin (promotes healing of burns and wounds)

Collagen (used in plastic surgery and to make non-stick bandages)

Cortisol (anti-inflammatory)

Glucagon (treats hypoglycemia or low blood sugar)

Heparin (anitcoagulant used to treat blood clots)

Insulin (for treating diabetes or high blood sugar)

Pancreatin (aids in digestion of food)

Thrombin (coagulant that helps blood clot)

Vasopressin (controls intestinal and renal functions)

Vitamin B-12 (prevention of B-complex deficiencies)

Food

Gelatin comes from the connective tissue of cattle and is used to make many of the foods we often eat:

Candies

Dairy Products

Desserts

Diet Products

Jellies

(Gelatin also has many non-edible uses. ItÂs used in binding/coating agents, cosmetics, and in making
sponges.)

Household Products

YouÂd be surprised at the number of products in your home made with cattle by-products. No matter
where you live, you likely have several of the following products in your home made from fats and
protein:

Candles

Ceramics

Cosmetics

Crayons

Deodorants

Detergents

Floor Wax

Insecticides

Insulation

Linoleum

Mouthwash

Paints

Paper

Perfume

Plastic

Shaving Cream

Soaps

Synthetic Rubber

Textiles

Toothpaste

Textiles/Apparel

Travel

Antifreeze contains glycerol derived from fat

Asphalt contains a binding agent from beef fat

Beef fats and proteins are used to make auto and jet lubricants, outboard engine oil,
high-performance greases, and brake fluid.

Glue from beef protein is used in automobile bodies

Tires have stearic acid, which makes rubber hold its shape

You know what?? You people are getting out of hand.
I'm not even giving you the satisfaction of responding to anything you have to say.

Have a good :) day

Why are we getting out of hand? Because we disagree with you and are trying to make a point. I believe I can speak for Trish in that some vegans are just a little hypocrital.

I meant to post a follow-up with my list. As I've posted in previous messages - everyone has a right to their opinions and feelings but as a farmer, I am so tired of "being looked down upon" because I raise livestock for slaughter.

I just happen to believe that human beings are one step up on the chain of life than animals (all animals). However, that doesn't mean I am cruel or anti-humane to my livestock. In fact, right now, I should be napping because I am running on about 5 hours of sleep in the last two days because we are lambing. We had a ewe the other night that decided to lamb out in the snow instead of in the barn. We brought the ewe in with the lamb and realized that she was straining to have another lamb but couldn't. My daughter and I spent a half hour trying to help that ewe lamb by reaching up inside her and maneuving that lamb so it would come out. When the lamb was born, it wasn't breathing. We then worked with it another five minutes and got it to breathe. We put it under a heat lamp and had to bottle it with colustrum from the ewe because it was too weak to stand and nurse. Yesterday afternoon, when we checked the ewe and her lambs, that lamb was standing and nursing. DD and I both were so excited.

Oh and by the way, from a parental standpoint, I couldn't be prouder of my 20 year old dd. She has turned out to be very caring loving woman (in spite of eating and raising livestock for slaughter).

Since this post was originally directed at me, (I guess) I feel compelled to respond! Discotrish and Freckles, your posts were amusing (in a good way) and extremely informative. I agree, that just randomly killing animals for no reason is not right. But if I see a huge rat helping itself to whatever in my apartment, you'd better believe I'm going to get rid of it.

By the way, the emulsion side (shiny side) of film is also made from ground up cow bones. i suppose if we didn't kill cows for meat and their byproducts, we'd have an overpopulation of them just like we do deer. Can you imagine running into a cow on the freeway, much less a deer? Hmm. (Uh oh, I think I've inadvertantly opened another can of worms. Sorry)

I am certainly not meaning to suggest we go out of our way to harm animals, and I think vegetarianism is a good thing for the human body and an overall more healthful way to live. However no Philosophical Vegetarian has ever been willing or able to tell me where the line is drawn with respect to killing of animals and what the rationale is. It's an interesting thing to ponder though.

Trish

Interesting, though I think the same could be said for all beliefs/moral positionings. How many Christians do you know who shop on Sundays? I think the bigger point is that we each need to be mindful that our way is not the only way, and to respect others' choices.

If we keep pointing fingers and calling eachother hypocrites it won't be long before someone is pointing back at us and drawing attention to our own inconsistencies.

Thank you Kara. I agree with you 100%!!

I wasn't going to post any more on this topic and don't think that this forum is the appropriate place to agrue about vegetarianism. But, I would like to say that what Kara PA said makes a lot of sense and would like to give Discotrish an answer to her question.

Discotrish, you said:
no Philosophical Vegetarian has ever been willing or able to tell me where the line is drawn with respect to killing of animals and what the rationale is.

I'm sure that you don't believe in killing humans and would like to know why. Why do you draw the line at humans? If you think carefully about it, I'm sure you will find that there is no logical reason to draw the line at humans and you draw it there only because you were taught to draw it there and/or because you have much more empathy for humans than animals. So, your position has nothing to do with logic.

Ethical vegetarians (people that don't eat animals for ethical reasons) are people that know that it's not necessary for humans to kill and eat animals. They prefer to live a life that doesn't result in animals being needlessly killed. Some go further than others and of course there are practical limitations. But, I think that all ethical vegetarians would agree that any effort to improve the lives of those of any sentient species is valuable and we don't want to needlessly cause suffering. It never ceases to amaze me that some people would object to this and think it's irrational. It's certainly as rational as your logic.

Now, you have the answer.

Ok, we've all had our say. Now, can we drop this topic so I don't have to see my name at the top of the page? I'm half joking but not really....thanks.

No, Phylus; we aren't finished yet. I expect an answer from Discotrish. She and others have been attacking vegetarians and suggesting that we are illogical. Discotrish asked for an explaination of where vegetarians draw the lines and the logic behind it. That is: what species are OK to kill and what species are not OK to kill. I think I gave her a fairly good answer. Now, I'm asking for an explaination of the logic behind her reasoning that the line should be drawn at humans. That is: it's OK to kill animals and it's not OK to kill humans.

It's not that I'm want to attack omnivores; I just want Discotrish (and some others on this forum) to realize that their positions are no more grounded in logic than the vegetarians positions. I think that ethical vegetarians position on killing animals isn't based on logic, but on the BELIEF that it's best not to hurt or kill humans or animals if it can be avoided. Likewise, some, omnivores position on killing animals isn't based on logic, but on the BELIEF that it's best not to hurt or kill humans if it can be avoided. But, killing animals is OK to them, if killing animals is somehow advantageous.

Logic has it's limitations. Those that think of themselves as being very logical are often the least logical, because they don't realize their limitations and don't realize that their BELIEF system is based on BELIEFS and not logic. I think that everyone has core beliefs that they can't explain. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with this; we probably couldn't function if we didn't.

Phylus, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to put your name in the spotlight by creating the thread with your name and now making it stay at the top by posting. But, I really want a responce to my question.

If you don't understand the difference between humans and animals it will be difficult to explain anything to you, but I'll try. Humans have souls. Animals do not. If your life were jeopardized by any animal whatsoever, any civilized and moral human being would save you at the expense of the animal. If you don't want this preferential treatment by all means swim with alligators. And escort ants out of your home one by one. If animals are truly our equals then they shouldn't just be 'allowed' to live, they should be receiving top-notch medical care and social security on a species-adjusted basis of retirement age. I think vegetarianism is a laudable lifestyle choice, but you are doing an injustice to the arthritic back of the high horse you are preaching from. Most vegetarians I've spoken with prefer to save the fuzzy animals first followed by the ones with sad eyes. Well rats have rights too, they just aren't on a par with yours and mine.

Trish (whose logic is at least consistent with her assumptions even if you take issue with the assumptions)

Thank you Discotrish for sharing your beliefs. Yes, I do take issue with your beliefs; I'm sure that many Christians would also take issue with them. My wife is Christian; she doesn't believe that animals don't have souls. I, myself, don't believe in the Christian concept of souls, but even if humans have souls as you believe and animals don't, I don't see why that makes it OK to kill animals and not OK to kill humans. I don't see the logical connection. And, it's pretty clear to me from your last post that you don't fully understand what I said in my posts to you. But, I think that this issue was discussed enough on this board and I'm not going to argue with you any more. Again, thanks for your response.

It is clear also that you have a poor understanding of Christianity as well, never mind the vegetarianism, if you believe animals have souls. A better tack to take might have been to ask why 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' doesn't seemingly apply to animals. There is still that itsy bitsy problem of why it isn't okay to kill a cow, but it's fine to kill rats, wasps, or head lice. And the fact that it's okay to drive in cars that have dead animal products in their composition, but not to eat a steak. Probably because a steak couldn't get you to work on time, eh? Kosher Jews make more sense -- they don't eat pork because it's Unclean, not because the pig has a soul. I will continue to advocate and support vegetarianism, simply because it's healthy and is friendlier toward our environmemnt, not for philosophical reasons which don't hold up when you examine them closely.

Trish

Hi Trish.
I'm, not going to argue with you but will clarify what I said. I didn't say that I believe that animials have souls. I said that some Christians believe that animals have souls. And, I said that I don't believe in souls. I'm not a Christian and don't believe in souls (at least not the way souls are commonly conceived). I already explained to you the logic behind how ethical vegetarians draw the lines but you didn't understand. If you try to think from our perspective, maybe you will understand. As it is in everything in life, people can only be expected to do the best they can do.

These issues you are now bringing up have all been discussed before in this thread and that other huge thread. Several people have posted very good answers to these issues. I suggest that you reread the posts in both these threads rather than bringing up these issues again.

Have a nice day ;)

Hi Trish (and others interested).
I reread my last post and noticed that the last sentence of the first paragraph can be misinterpreted because I didn't place it in the proper context, so I would like to repeat it in the proper context here.

The following paragraph was my response to your question: how do ethical vegetarians draw the line on what species are OK to kill and what species are not OK to kill? Here's a clue to understanding it when you read it: As it is in everything in life, people can only be expected to do the best they can do. Please, keep this in mind when you read it.

Ethical vegetarians (people that don't eat animals for ethical reasons) are people that know that it's not necessary for humans to kill and eat animals. They prefer to live a life that doesn't result in animals being needlessly killed. Some go further than others and of course there are practical limitations. But, I think that all ethical vegetarians would agree that any effort to improve the lives of those of any sentient species is valuable and we don't want to needlessly cause suffering.

Thanks :v)

In other words you HAVE to drive a car, so it is okay to kill animals for that purpose. Got it. Well if animals 'do' have souls, I'm sure they object to being killed for practical reasons, such as the wasps' nest is too close to the house. Personally I would just tell children vegetarianism is better for your health.

Trish

Just one question: Where do you get the nutritional supplements that your body requires that are naturally found in meat?

I'm not stirring the pot, vegetarianism is a topic that confuses me regardless of how much I research.

I find this all amusing--we all have different world views--so why waste our breath trying to change others--life is to short!! Like I tell people--Thats really nice--bye bye now!!

I'm with you Charityoh, it is amusing. However, I do find that discotrish did raise good points I've never even thought about. I don't care one way or another what "food lifestyle" anyone chooses, but I thought it was an interesting point of view.

Hi Trish. I'll try once more to help you understand our point of view.

Please think about this VERY carefully: ethical vegetarians are more interested in doing what they can to make life better for sentient creatures than satisfying yours and others requirements for logic. Even behaving illogically may be logical if it helps get the job done. Then ask your self whether this is consistent with their philosophy.

If your child was trapped under a car and her life was in danger would you ask yourself whether getting her out is logical and consistent with your philosophy? If it wasn't would you leave her there? No, you would do what you could to get her out.

Maybe it would be better for sentient creatures if we didn't drive cars. All they do is use resources and pollute. In any case I guess what you're saying is that you prefer not to kill animals, but if it becomes necessary for practical reasons, you would. That is not a moral absolute, obviously, but a personal preference. That's as good a reason as any for vegetariaism. By the way I'm not trying to change your point of view. It may not carry too much logical weight, but we all have irrational ideas that we're comfortble with. And in any case I think vegetarianism is better for the individual and for the world. Just because we have a disagreement about the philosophical underpinnings of the belief doesn't mean anyone needs to change their mind. This is a discussion not a session of congress. I have enjoyed seeing what you and others have had to say on this topic.

Trish