Nicole - too funny! :-) There can be that attitude of you are lucky to be able to buy our paint. I have talked to Emmett, their color consultant, before though and he is a definite bright spot.

I was just over at the paint store yesterday and Benjamin Moore has a new "top top" line that is supposed to be like this, fine European paint with wonderful finish and long-lasting. They said it is $50/gallon. I'd definitely use it at that price... but not so sure about $140.

Are we really so sure that the European paint is superior? I've never seen it so don't know, but it sounds very cool.

I've used them, and I'm absolutely sure. But they do cost a pretty penny. Perhaps if I hadn't been doing all my own painting, I might not have splurged. But I'm really glad I did.

Ivette

Ivette, Now I'm really curious and thinking of doing it myself. How is it superior in looks to, say, $39/gallon Benjamin Moore middle grade latex?

Having used the FPE paint I feel it is specialty paint. I don't do most of my own painting and honestly, I have been really happy with the regular old Benjamin Moore paint. Their color range is unbeatable to me and I like the way it looks in my house.

I would justify the price of the FPE for things like my porch and perhaps the exterior window frames and door frames on the house.

I'm working with a different formulation than Ivette, however, as it's the oil base.

Not sure that "European" is the issue. I just think this particular brand is very high quality and my paint store (OK they sell it but they sell a lot of brands) evidently agrees.

I spent about $140 for paint on the two screen doors. But I should not need to repaint them for many years and they look amazing. I will gladly spend the additional for the exterior areas as well.

Meanwhile, it cost me $40 in paint to redo my entire living room last week and the Benjamin Moore color -- opal -- is gorgeous. I don't feel another $100 could have improved it with any brand.

rococo is right, it's not the "European" thing it's just higher quality and it is a specialty paint. I didn't love any of their colors enough to justify using them on my walls. But I did feel their ECO was special enough to use on all my exterior woodwork, windows, and doors, as well as kitchen cabinets (jeez, I sound like a broken record). What makes this paint different from BM (and I used all BM in my previous home), with all due respect to Jane who I know will disagree, to ME and only ME, the BM looks more dead on the walls, and I was very displeased with how the walls looked after only four/five years of pretty light use. The FPE ECO on wood, is amazing, the satin finish glows, the finish is hard as glass and feels divine. The color glows (granted, it's only a cream and a putty, but hey). The F&B, both the Estate Emulsion (flat) and the Modern Emulsion (between eggshell and flat) feel beautiful to the hand (not that I run my hands on the wall, but when I do it feels like velvet). It also looks deeper and richer to me than the BM ever did in my previous house, and I have alot less light here, so that says alot for this paint. I also found the F&B colors to be really unique and unusual, in a good way. I've also used C2, which is very nice, color looks rich and beautiful, but not nearly as nice as the F&B. We'll see how the Pratt & Lambert and DKC I'm using in a couple of other rooms does. I am sure they will be lovely, but I am not expecting them to live up to the F&B (well, the DKC better!).

So what can I say. I really notice a difference. But I am universally acknowledged for being incredibly anal and detail oriented and obssessive (this remodel needs to end so I can have a life again).

It's worth it to me. Three rooms painted so far and I am over the moon happy with them and I think they're heads and shoulders above the rooms I painted in the previous house.

But in the end, BM is good stuff, it's great stuff actually. But in my opinion, it's just not AS good as F&B for walls or FPE for wood.

Enough already, I'm going to demand royalties soon.

Ivette

Funny how everyone is different. I got F&B sample pots and didn't find the paint to be as special as Ivette does. The color range didn't have what I wanted either, as all the colors were too gray for my house. But F&B is very highly regarded and I know that Ivette is really very exacting so if it wasn't good stuff she wouldn't like it.

The paint that impressed me a lot from the sample pot is the Sydney Harbour. I painted some of it on a cardboard and smeared some around with my finger and the surface of it was amazing. I really want to use it at some point even though it is wildly expensive. But again, my house has really funny light and the rooms are small. So the muted F&B colors or really vibrant colors (Sydney Harbour) don't work well. I need a lot of white and very little color.

I'm wondering if a lot of what looks great in some houses doesn't work as well elsewhere because of the light and the orientation of the house.

Mine, for example, faces east west. So it's fairly dark in the morning except in back and we get direct sun from the west in the afternoons which turned the previous midrange colors nuclear.

Not sure the paint brand really matters as much as the colors and the effect you want and finding the right paint to get it.

rococogurl, I happen to think that when it comes to wall color, it is ALL about the light. Natural directional exposure and the artificial lighting as well. The other colors in the room matter too, though I think the main factor is indeed the light a room receives. I am truly fascinated by it all. I'm not a great writer, but I do love words. I blame a lot of my color & light obession on one word, metamerism. It's been inspiration for a couple projects I needed to complete and I have actually enjoyed it! So I think your wondering about color looking terrific in some houses and not so good in others because of the inherent light is totally on track. :-)

Funcolors, I totally agree with what you've said as it is exactly what I've observed, though I never knew the name for it.

Yep, I think paying attention, observing matters. I also think that's why some people get hooked on really great paint/color and some people are just perfectly fine and perfectly happy with their perfectly fine and wonderful Ben Moore, or SW or even Color Place paint. Amy and her Farrow & Ball comes to mind :-)

Color is light and with light, there is color. The finer paints that have constructed spectacular finishes, like FPE, or the colorists that have crafted fabulous color like Ellen Kennon, CJ Volk and D. Kaufman, capitalize on the most attractive and mesmerizing features of light and color, which I think are luminosity and reflectivity. To organize it and keep it straight in my head, I've put the full spectrum, multi-pigment paints into the luminosity category as luminosity seems to come from within those expertly mixed colors. Paints like FPE, F&B, and the brand that brushworks likes, Muralo Ultra Ceramic, IÂve put in the reflectivity category because of their finishes that are ultra, ultra fine and sophisticated tactilely as well as visually. Not to say that the two categories don't cross-pollinate, I'm just saying that's how I have generally organized it for me personally.

Funcolors, I think that sounds like a really good explanation of why some like certain brands. I think surface finish has a lot to do with it and no one really talks about this -- it usually centers on color -- but I think the surface finish can be even more important than the color in certain instances.

For me, personally, I know my taste runs to very flat, chalky surfaces. I like the milk paint, the casein paint surfaces and the distemper -- none of which are American taste particularly (except for Early American/Shaker). A friend told me she got a recipe from an Irish decorator who adds lime paste of some kind to regular paint and does amazing flat finishes -- the kind of thing you see on 18 century plaster walls. I also love real plaster walls with frescos. Who knows why.

Perhaps that's why I liked the Sydney Harbour paints as those have that quality. Even the vibrant colors have a flatness. I don't care for the intensity and don't get Ellen Kennon at all. I find that color too overwhelming and don't think I could stay in one of those rooms though I know others have exactly the opposite reaction. The Kaufman color cards were interesting but gray and beige are really, really difficult colors in my house.

It's interesting because my new neighbor is building a house and was telling me what that he found the light really strange in the new house and had a hard time choosing a color to paint that perked the house up. He was finding his gray also. We're all surrounded by really old, tall trees and I think we lose a lot of light because of that (but hopefully we gain cleaner air).
The BM paints are very chalky when they go on. You call it flat, and I suppose to a color expert that seems unexciting. But it's precisely what I like about them. But I like faded fabric, too.

The discussion about the way light affects color is fascinating. One thing I don't hear much about is the regional differences in the intensity and color of light. I am in Colorado where the sun is very intense, even in winter. I would love to know your opinions about the light in your region.

avspatti - I've spent of maybe a year or a little more working on a project that deals specificially with the ordinal as well as the intermediate directions of exposure. Talked to a lot of people, read a lot, and blah, blah, blah.

Regional characteristics of light is my next objective, so I've been paying attention and staying on the look out for info regarding that. Haven't stumbled on much, but havent' been looking that hard either.

One theory, opinion that was shared with me was about the Devine color palette and how they were supposedly designed specifically for the light of the northwest. In nutshell, this person's opinion was that it was silly and was likely more effective for marketing than for sucessfully coloring the homes of the northwest. If they were customized for the light in the northwest, why has the brand gone national and selling window treatments ta boot. Mind you this person doesn't live in the northwest, but his opinion was that it didn't matter. Sure there were points on the globe where the light changes, closer to the equator was the one example he used. Being closer to the sun, the rays are less dispersed and therefore the characteristics of the wavelenghts reaching into homes would be very different there than the way they get filtered into homes in Ohio.

It was interesting. I walked away from the conversation with the thought that coast to coast, east to west the differences may be negligible. However, north to south, Minnesota to Florida for example, and there's more of a dramatic difference. I was left with questions like, "Yeah, what IS the difference between a dark and gloomy day in Ohio and a dark and gloomy day somewhere in Oregon any way? Could it really be THAT much different?" Don't really have any answers, but lots of questions like that.

In the next few months or so, I'll have more information, will have formed more of my own opinion - not sure what I think about regional color right now. I do, however, believe that there are differences. I do think latitude and longitude matter -- and likely altitude does too. I just don't have much to go on to speak to it at this point. Would be cool if someone else around here had some info to share about it.

What a fascinating discussion. I want to share my experience with the way light works in different locations. It is really interesting to me how rococogirl and I both have very shaded homes, yet gray doesn't work in her house, but it is divine in my own. Of course, some of this is personal preference. But I also believe that alot of it is the difference between what East/West exposure is in NY, vs. what it is in Virginia. It's different, absolutely. I noticed it this weekend in my aunt's house in NJ, which is also extremely shaded, she needs lighter/brighter colors. Mind you, I have NOT painted my gray foyer (DKC # 16) yet, and the powder room (C2's Archival) gets NO natural light, so it doesn't count. But the "Off White" F&B in my master bedroom is DIVINE! Yes it's a gray, but it also picks up green from the trees. OMG, it's beautiful. And it is completely different on a dark, cloudy day, much grayer. My favorite "shade" of it occurs at twilight in the evening or early dawn, with artificial light on, then it is this silvery, taupey gray with no hint of green. And this isn't even true full spectrum paint. I know I am not imagining this. And very interestingly, different people see different a different color. At the same time, my brother and friend's boyfriend saw green. My father saw gray, with no hint of green whatsoever. It's fascinating!

My brother lives in NC. I'm here right now, and I notice a difference even here. The light here is even slighty more bright, clear. The trees here are not as tall, but there are alot of them, so a fair comparison.

And the light in Cairo was amazing. Truly a beautiful, amazing, Mediterranean light. Our apartment had stark white walls, and for the first time in my life, I LOVED them. They worked. I would not have chosen to ever bring color to the walls in that place. Oh and it was painted in some really scary local brand of paint. God knows what, it may have even been lead paint (although I doubt it). So it was definitely the light, not anything special about the paint itself.

It's a fascinating thing, and something that some are more sensitive too. I know I find it mood altering.

The tactile thing is also very true. The C2 feels completely different on the walls than the F&B. I'll leave the FPE out of my discussion because I've only used it on wood, so naturally it will feel different.

Jane: Have you tried F&B's Dead Flat Oil?? It is supposed to be an amazing finish, supposedly as close to the original distemper as can be had today. I have not tried it myself, F&B recommends that it be tested first, it is THAT flat. Since you have expressed such a strong preference, I'd love to know what you think of it.

This is a very interesting topic to me.

One thing I could contribute is that the color consultant at FPE told me that paint on a front door will look half as dark as it actually is in the sunlight. IOW, sun leeches color. So those very dark greens, for example, look way less dark during the day than at dusk.

I expect that interior light is governed by the same principle. The more direct it is, the lighter things appear. As the sun moves, the character of the light changes and hence the appearance of color.

My color theory teacher talked about that in class. It also was the basis for color studies many artists have done over the years. I'm thinking of the Monet haystacks, as just one example.

Again, I agree with Funcolors that latitude and longitude would affect color. It seems quite logical -- in Germany in December it's dark until after 9 a.m. That's way different from the light at 9 a.m. in New York, and even more different in LA. Also, light is quite different in Aspen in January and in Miami. Both get reflection -- one from the snow and the other from the sun. But even that produces quite a different effect on color I'd expect.

I admire F&B and know it's good paint. But the F&B color palette doesn't work for me. Otherwise, I'd probably be enthusiastic about trying the superflat stuff. The colors are all so muted I almost gave away the color card.

Absolutely true. Most of the F&B colors are really grayed down. There are a few exceptions, mostly the creams and Orangery, which is intense.

Their fandex sucks though. Or rather maybe, the paint is just totally different from chip when on the wall, much more than usual. Of all the brands and decks I've messed with F&B is by far the worst at having the chip in the least possible way resemble the real thing. But that's got nothing to do with the colors being grayed down or aged or whatever it is. They just are. Kinda like the BM Historical Colors series, same dealio, I think.

I was wondering more about the texture of the dead flat oil than the colors themselves. Maybe I'll test it when it comes time to paint the library downstairs. DH wants to do a deep red, and how to die will that be in a dead flat?

Hmmmmm.....

Ivette

I'd like to see dead flat red. After having a high gloss cabernet dining room for years -- the most romantic room ever with a wonderful crystal chandelier from the 20s that I found on the floor at a house sale -- it's the one color I wouldn't think of using as flat. Expect it will be fab or wanna-kill-yourself but I will love to see your test! It's a great idea.

Just noticed that the Devine Paint line has come out with that dead flat thing as well -- the historical Irish look. Thought that was interesting vis a vis our discussion.

This conversation -- and other with a friend by email -- has my mind spinning on new projects I'd like to do but don't have time for right now. It just never seems to end. Aaarrrghhhh.

Another thing that probably influences the colors is the amount of humidity in the air. Seems to me that more humidity causes more 'greyness' in colors. Thoughts?

avspatti - I would agree with that. I am up to me eyeballs in lighting classes (want to be a certified lighting designer too) and pollutants have been discussed. Some light is absorbed by the pollutant particles in the air, while other light gets scattered and dispersed out and about and never hits anything to reflect off of creating what is sometimes called haze - I think that's how it went.

I don't remember anything about humidity, but that doesn't mean it isn't in the books I have. lol! :-) Makes sense though that humidity would refract and even scatter light too, as raindrops in the air are what enable us to see rainbows.

The coolest thing I saw, and maybe this is a little OT and everyone else knew this, but rainbows are ROUND! In all my 20+ years of working with color, I DID NOT KNOW THAT! The instructor had a picture from NASA that showed a rainbow from space -- it was my very favorite thing in the whole class. Truly do learn somethin' new every day.

I thought the difference with FPE was that they used synthetic pigments which are more translucent than the earth pigments used in conventional paints.

I painted our LR/DR with Ellen Kennon "Adobe" and can't really see any difference in luminosity between it and other paints I've used, like Benjamin Moore and Valspar. I have done a lot of fabric dyeing and have a pretty keen eye for depth and richness of color, so I don't think it's that I don't know what to look for. I just have a feeling that the covering qualities of oxide pigments cancels out some of their depth of color.

There's a paint store in my area that sells FPE and they have a display with thirty or forty colors, none of which appeal to me much. I'll have to go back and look for the fan decks. I really would like to try this paint.

I painted our LR/DR with Ellen Kennon "Adobe" and can't really see any difference in luminosity between it and other paints I've used, like Benjamin Moore and Valspar.

Vedy interesting! I have EK samples and I like Adobe very much. I have selected it for tv room or guest bedroom--haven't decided which one yet. It's hard choosing paint long distance and I've had some problems doing business with EK. Anything pics or anything else you can add?

I wonder if it's because Adobe is dark. We put a coat of EK Terracotta Sand over coat of computer-generated paint of the same and the latter looked "sooty."

I emailed Ellen about the Adobe because one of the pigments didn't blend in---kept floating to the top right away no matter how often or how thoroughly I stirred the paint. She had never heard of that happening. I took photos and sent them to her and she said she'd take it up with the manufacturer and she offered me a discount on the next order of paint but I haven't gotten any yet.

Anyway, it wasn't that the paint had no depth of color, it just didn't strike me as very different in that respect from other good paints I've used. And I have used paint that had no depth of color. The paint in the room where I'm sitting right now is some of the dullest, flattest color I've ever seen on walls! I think it's Behr--but i've used other Behr paint that was nicer looking than this.

Ellen did say that the full spectrum paint is not as noticeable on the darker colors. I dunno.

The Adobe looks more brown than taupe, too. The sample card didn't look quite as brown to me. We are going to cut some openings in the living room wall in about a year so I'll have to repaint again after that. I'm looking forward to trying something new again.

I thought I had some photos but I don't. Sorry! Right now those two rooms are very cluttered with stuff from another large room that we're finally renovating and hardly any wall space is visible!

Spanky, thank you. I appreciate you taking the time to reply. Given your experience, I may pass on the Adobe and look for something similar locally. I have two other rooms for which I'll consider one of her lighter colors. I hear you about the clutter. We have the same situation! Hang in there.

Excuse the detour of this thread, all...

It's not at all a detour. :) I am fascinated by the apparent fact that full spectrum is less noticable in darker colors. Why would that be? Can anyone conjure a guess? I'm at a loss.

Ivette

Darker pigments absorb more light rather than reflect it back? I suppose that must be part of it.

Ivette

I think it depends on the specific full spectrum color and how it is mixed. Defining what FS is to begin with is a challenge, determining why it is more successful in some instances than others is even more so. Color is a phenomenon of nature. While it is true that color is light and light is color (although some will say light has no color until it hits something), I also think color is a philosophy, and IÂm not so sure it can always be neatly explained and categorized.

Saying that it is harder to "see" the FS aspects in the darker colors seems bit general and broad. EK's Berry Red is a good example - hands down one of the best reds out there. It is fabulous up and out-WOWs my other two favorite reds, RL's Hunting Coat Red and Martha Stewart's Miso. Personally, I can very much see and feel the FS characteristics even though it is a color with a rather dark value.

From what I understand, mixing color full spectrum is a matter of balance and proportion; a little of this color with an equal portion of that color, a snidge of this and a snidge of that, etc. until you get at least all seven spectral colors in the mix.

Could be that some full spectrum colors are just mixed to a more refined result. Those different results appeal to different tastes and work better in some lighting conditions than others. Full spectrum color, no matter the brand, is essentially a handcrafted product.

Yes, they have found a way to mass market them with pretty reliable consistency, yet I still view them as designer, artisan products, which also accounts for the different styles and artistry that is detectable between the Kaufman, Volk and Kennon colors. Aside from all the technical mumbo jumbo that makes full spectrum colors different from regular colors, it's the designer influence and crafting that makes them special for me and worth the extra dollars.

How's that for a conjure? lol! :-) ...and also hope this isn't too much of a detour from the original post.

Funcolors -- One question and one point/opinion.

What/who is Volk?

I think the most important thing is to get the right color in the right lighting conditions. Because I think that the very same color can look completely different in 2 different houses. Hell, my C2 sample that Ivette got me looked different horizontally and vertically in the same room with the same light.

So, wouldn't it be logical that those considerations really outweight the issue of whether paint is or isn't full spectrum? I promise you any of those reds are going to look so scary at 4 in the afternoon in my house you'd run out the door!

My other point is this: that very highly saturated color that everyone talks about with full spectrum really seems to lack subtlety to me. It dazzles, it reflects, but it hammers you (at least when you see it in photos). Isn't there something to be said for "less is more" even where color is concerned?

Volk is C.J. Volk of Citron Paints in AZ. She does a full spectrum line too, has a brick & mortar store there. Very pretty palette, very different style than DK or EK too.

And, oh yeah, I agree with you that it all goes back to inherent lighting in a room/house -- yet another point as to why it's hard to make generalizations about specific colors whether they be FS or regular, light or dark, etc.

Everyone is different and every house is different that is for certain. I was in an early 90's saltbox yesterday. Dark stain on a lot of oak. House faced north, nestled on the river so lots of trees. Had the original wallpaper, very 90's florals and stripes. It was dark, it was a bit gloomy. Scattered my EK swatches out on the table for the homeowner to start sorting through and she commented how soft and earthy the EK colors were, lol!

In her house, Cognac looks very golden tan. In my house it looks like Sherwin William's Restrained Gold - a very golden yellow. EK Bronze looked like a brown bronze, not an orangey bronze like it has in other spaces I've used it in. It didn't have enough ooomph for her and she thought it might be too dull. SW's True Penney (a bronze orange too) caught her eye -- it looks MUTED in her family room not the least bit bright.

So are FS colors highly saturated and jolting or are they muddy and subtle? It totally depends on where you are and who you ask. How some colors render in photos is a whole other debacle. The fact that FS colors do not have any black could possibly account for how they reflect back and end up appearing in photos, but who knows.

My bottomline is that FS paint in one more trick in the bag. I think a lot depends on how each FS color is mixed and how those unique results appeal to different tastes and work in various lighting conditions. What you think is a scary red at 4 could very well be someone else's "perfect color". ;-)

No one brand offers all the solutions for every project, or for each individual style and tolerance for color, or for every room/house. Gotta have options because each palette brings something different to the table. Sometimes that bag of tricks isn't full enough and "the color" is impossible to find in stock colors and then custom mixing has to be considered. I know some people enjoy mixing colors, I kinda don't. It takes a ton o'time and it's messy - or maybe it's ME that's the messy factor. lol!

I'm really fascinated by the way you speak in "brand name." Since I don't know the lines or the colors at all it's a shorthand I can't really draw from.

Thanks for the Volk explan. I was trying to think of Citron the other day as I'd seen it fleetingly and couldn't summon it.

OTOH, what you were saying about the saltbox client house is very clear and sounds completely logical to me. And absolutely a scary red in my house is clearly someone else's perfect color! No question, and you know what: I love to see those red rooms even though I cannot have one in this house. I had a cabernet dining room once and just loved it. The most romantic dining room ever. But it was in an older house with all the right trimmings and light for that color. I tried for a week to get a celadon green for my bedroom in that same house and it was never right. Just kept going so blue -- finally ended up with gray.

I'm not against custom if there's a color that cannot be matched any other way. My local paint store has a color matching machine and when I had a problem I gave them my tile and they matched it to a color I had picked anyway. But I hung up the swatch and it went sooo dark I knew it wouldn't work. The color that did work looked marginal at best.

What I've learned for my house is that I need very bright tints since everything goes very gray and very red in here.

So I suppose it's like getting dressed and learning which colors look good on you and which designers or manufacturers select colors that work for you. Except ya gotta do it for your house.

So your job is essentially that of a "house psychiatrist". Very lovely and never sad and you leave the clients happy. So great to earn a living that way, I think.

While I understand that all paints will look different in a room because of the light on each wall, fs paints scare me because they have such strong variations in a room.
I don't want a tan, green and gray room. Also too any of them seem muddy, particularly EK.

Speaking of red, I have a friend who is a CSI type cop and
when he came in my house and saw the splotches of red I was considering he yelped and said they all looked like the various colors of blood, which changes as it dries. After that I couldn't relate to it as anything other than blood and dumped the red idea. Creepy looking when considering it in that way. He said it looked like too many murder scenes.

Oh gross. Who can blame you after that.

I have two FS colors waiting to be slapped on, they're both DKC. I haven't had them on all the walls to see what they'll do yet, but I did slap enormous swatches on walls to test. One is a gray, one a cream. Yes they did change color during the day but it was very, very slight. I rather enjoyed it. My bedroom is F&B and I posted somewhere else about how that room is a slightly different color at different times of the day. I find I'm enjoying that too, but again, it is such a subtle shift that I doubt anyone else notices.

Now, if it was a more "color" color and it changed from say blue to green or something like that, or one wall went green while another blue, that might drive me nuts. I shouldn't have that problem though, given that both my FS colors are very neutral. I guess we'll see. I may be back here in a months screaming that I'm losing my mind! LOL.

EK paint is muddy? Wow. Isn't one of the points of full spectrum to avoid muddiness? Very interesting.
Ivette

My new BM Opal living room changes color over the course of the day and it's not full spectrum. It looks warmest at night with the lights on and palest in the morning. It's noticeable enough that even DH remarked on it and he could care less about the paint or furniture or anything in the house as long as the computer and the TV work.

Think we're wanting to have some clarity about what type and brand does what etc but it doesn't seem to lend itself to that. I'm beginning to think that paint is quite exitential and whatever color or brand you use, no matter how fancy or plain, it simply is what it is in the place it's put. Either one can visualize that in advance as Funcolors can, or not.

Must say though, I've had large swatches of two colors I'm considering taped up on walls and it really helps having those up over time. I liked a new hallway color I'm considering a lot and then last night I took a look at it and decided it didn't work well with the trim and the oak.

Or maybe I just change my mind a lot.

It's true alright. I had an enormous swatch of an FPE cream up on the wall called "Buff Cochin" (back when it was a Martha Stewart color, now it just has a number). Anyway, it was beautiful most of the day and night. But there was one time of day, can't remember when now, when the light made it look like flesh. I'm not kidding, total, pinky, caucasian, skin-colored, flesh. It was just nasty, and I couldn't deal with it. Decided against it beacause of that, even though it was divine the rest of the time. Definitely test colors at all times of day. I'm sure the seasons make a difference too, and unfortunately for me (or fortunately?) in some cases, I have had colors up on the walls for THREE seasons before deciding! LOL!

Will it ever end? (the remodel that is)

Ivette

Oh, you guys made me think of a couple more things! :-)

I posted about Kilz paint on another thread. I am kind of a snot about the finish of paint. I admit it. I like the ones that look and feel silky or the ones that have something that just begs me to touch it. Kilz hasn't done that for me -- yet. Yet! It just hit me that, yeah it has looked clumsy in the few rooms I've tried it in, maybe I'm being a little foolish in assuming that it's gonna look that way on every wall in every room? Maybe I shouldn't just automatically discount it especially if I need a handful of options in a certain price point range. hmmmm.... I must ponder this. lol!

Rococogurl, I think you nailed it. "Paint is quite exitential and whatever color or brand you use, no matter how fancy or plain, it simply is what it is in the place it's put." I do think other's opinions and experiences with color matter and can help. It helps to ask around, gather some input and insight mostly because you might be encouraged to explore and try something new! You might find what you never knew you were looking for.

Another great point was about how full spectrum DOES change and shift in different light. Although generally speaking, if one is looking for color constancy or consistency, they will always end up disappointed or dissatisfied no matter what kind of paint they use be it regular or full spectrum.

Color changes and that's a fact - that metamerism thing. The choice is what kind of color shifting do you want to live with. Does full spectrum change more than regular paint? I don't think it does. I think it just changes DIFFERENTLY than what we are most accustomed. Regular colors shift and change too. Metamerism isn't exclusive to full spectrum color; full spectrum color just deals with it differently.

Full spectrum color is going to give you one flavor of color shifts, multi-pigmented color is going to give you something else, and regular color has its own characteristics of shifting and changing as well. Have choices, must decide what fits, suits, and brings the most joy to you. And, there's something out there for everyone, which is a good thing. :-)

I think ALL paints shift color, all the time, not just FS ones. I see that shift everywhere from daylight to lamp light, and of course, over the course of a day as the angle of the sun changes.

From my experience, FS is just a richer, more nuanced, color in most instances. Although I totally "get" FS paint, and use it more often than not (even brewing it up myself when I can't find a prepared color to suit) there has arisen a whole lot of bunkum about it. It's not magic, even though sometimes a well-chosen color on the wall seems "magical".

Is it worth the extra cost? Well, I think so, of course or I wouldn't use it. But I'm mostly willing to pay extra for it because inventing my own FS colors takes a lot of work, and wastes time and paint while I fiddle around. And of course, the topic of this thread is FPE, which are not particularly FS, but made with different and (presumably) much higher quality materials. I have always been pleased with my FPE projects (particularly exterior doors). I doubt I would paint a whole house exterior with their paint as I don't think my bank account could stand it. I have used it on on smaller projects like interior woodwork, cabinets and plaster walls (different forumlas, naturally), and never felt it was money wasted.

But I have also been happy with BM, C2, Citron, F&B and DKC. (The only specialty paint brand I was not very happy with was EK.) I am looking forward to trying the Muralo Ceramic stuff Michael is so pleased with.

BTW, Ivette, which two DKC colors are you getting ready to slap up? It's always interesting to hear about how the various colors look on walls. I'm about set on DKC 63 (a mid-tone warm green) above the dado in my darkish, eastern exposure, dining room. (The runner-up in this case is a C2 color, Wasabi, which doesn't have the subtlety of #63, and is slightly bluer.) Still dithering about what to use as trim, and whether to paint the dado itself #63 or the same as the other trim. This is a troublesome room with FIVE single leaf doors (one exterior, French) and a pair of wide, double leaf doors, plus, if you can believe it, two windows, both different. All this in a 14 X 24 room with only one exterior wall. I'm kind of leaning towards painting the dado the trim color, just to simplify the room.

Molly~

Gosh Molly that sounds BEAUTIFUL! I got my swatches and took a cursory look, but I want to see those in daylight.

I'm going with DKC #16 in the foyer, which is a taupey/gray/putty kinda thing and DKC #3 in our master bathroom, a beautiful cream with just the slightest hint of pink (at least I think so). I should be able to paint those two rooms very soon!

Ivette

I have used two FPE paints for two bedrooms in my home. I didn't pay $140. a gallon.... I painted the rooms myself. I also just tried the new Benjamin Moore Aura paint at $55 a gallon. I loved the way the FPE went on and the final look. It is beautiful... One gallon in the FPE is a European gallon, less than American, but goes a long way... I liked the FPE better than the BM. I liked both working with it and also the final look of it.

Hello everyone,

does anyone have a good exterior creamy off white color that just gives enough contrast to set off a ultra white trim? I don't want my house to look yellow, and especially not grey, want it to still be white but definitely want the white trim to pop out. I want to look of elegance for a 1910 colonial revival house. And what sheen is best for longevity and looks?

These FPE sound awesome, I had previously been swayed to use SW Duration for its longevity factor, and self priming. The guy at the BM store of course reccommended Muralo, as better then Duration. I do not have a coverage issue since my house is already white and we are mostly stripping it. I like the idea of the FS paints except the fade factor, but do I have to worry about this in an off white?

thanks so much for any advice!

Very difficult to recommend colors specifically for me. FPE is super exterior paint. Their basic white is slightly cream colored -- I have it against BM super white and it looks ivory. Alone it looks white.

We redid my whole front porch with it and I'm very pleased with the result. My screen doors look perfect after 2 seasons.

You mentioned Cairo. You've read Durrell's Alexandria Quartet--his descriptions of light and color?

I have not. Sounds interesting! Amazon, here I come!

Ivette

What a fascinating discussion. I research the internet fairly frequently about the products I carry and am happy to see the discussion on the subject.

I will be happy to answer any questions you may have regarding both Fine Paints of Europe and Farrow & Ball as I am a retailer for both.

What I have noticed in this discussion is the question of finish, quality of product and cost. Let me start by saying that both Fine Paints of Europe and Farrow & Ball are paint systems and should be used as such to acquire the finish and quality represented by both brands. However, they are different.

Fine Paints of Europe is a quality paint that is thinner than domestic paints and the properties are different in many ways. The ingredients are the key to this paint being such a long lasting paint with a depth of color you will not see in domestic paints. Fine Paints is guaranteed to cover in two coats with the use of proper primer for the desired application in MOST scenarios. It is made with 1/3 more pigment with domestic paint and itÂs packed with titanium dioxide instead of plastic fillers. The Titanium dioxide refracts light which gives you a greater depth of color. The cost for making this paint is greater due to the quality of the paint, however, the cost of this paint for its longevity and lasting quality is greatly reduced per annual cost. These paints are designed to last 10-12 or so years on a home with normal maintenance and cleaning aside from excessive wear and tear.

The coverage in a properly prepared home with the Eurogallon will cover the same as our domestic paints and do it in two coats.

As for Farrow & Ball  completely different system and look. Farrow & Ball is a paint system that is comprised of a 132 color palette and is an unmatched finish that is completely matte and velvety in the darker hues and light, airy and misty in its lighter hues. These paints are packed full of titanium dioxide as well as china clay and 1/3 more pigments than domestic paints. The colors are all historically based and seldom change. Although they do keep the formulations for colors used in the past so that all Farrow & Ball colors are still available through special order but at no extra cost to you. They are all historically based.

I have never seen a finish like Farrow & Ball created with any other paint. The color may be the same, but the finish is unrivaled. ItÂs like raw silk on the wall. The finishes for Farrow & Ball are matte and luxurious. The various finishes available are few but the applications for interior and exterior are just as luxurious.

Thank you so much for your posting and I hope that I have answered some questions for your readers.

Regards,

Derek Ginn
The Paint Store at Ronald Shaffer Interiors

Here is a link that might be useful: The Paint Store at Ronald Shaffer Interiors

I would like to add my two cents worth. I used FPE in a large bedroom 12 years ago and the colour is still as vibrant as the day I painted it. At that time I didn't know that an oil based primer should have been applied before oil based paint goes on. The primer was Benjamin Moore and I just painted FPE and the paint is still smooth without cracks or imperfections. About the same time we painted kitchen/family room in BM in a lovely warm colour which within 2 years faded. It was completely unrecognizable. After that I began to look at BM paints with much less appreciation. I've used Farrow and Ball in a small bedroom and the finish is as good as when I applied it 5 years ago. I don't know how much has BM improved their paints. However, I know both Farrow and Ball and Fine Paints of Europe have stood the test of time much better compared to BM.

I know this is from 6 years ago and I see many people question the cost of FPE and many would spend on Benjamin Moore. I have used both. The room painted in FPE has kept the color as it was when painted 11 years ago. Benjamin Moore was used in kitchen/family room and it faded within a year. There is something else that no one has mentioned. Any color, whoever the manufacturer is, Fine Paints of Europe can match it. That is what they did for me. Very well too.

This discussion is fascinating to me. For the first time, I went and brushed my hands over my walls. The Farrow & Ball walls feel velvety. The library walls - DKC deep dried blood red in a satin finish feel great, the 10-year old BM Oil eggshell feels like silk but this is strange. In my Dining Room I had some sconces installed and the walls had to be opened up. The original paint was BM Egg Shell oil based and it still feels smooth and satiny. My painter matched the color, but had to use water based above the chair rail. It feels very rough and almost scratch. The worst of all is the DKC in the bedroom. A very rough and unpleasant surface. It would keep me from using it again, although I absolutely love the color of the DKC on my kitchen cabinets and would get it again just to get the color.

Just put in a a bid on a country house and want to repaint. From the looks of the paint they used, it looks cheep and chalky. Any thoughts over how I should prepare the surface and prime it for using F&B or FPE? I hadn't thought of painting myself, but my wallet is pretty flat right now I may try it with one room.

The man at the paint store where I bought the Donald Kaufman told me DKC uses Pratt and Lambert for all their base colors and then add pigments to get their lovely colors. All my cans of paint are marked Pratt and Lambert. Wouldn't the quality of paint then be the same as P & L? I HATE that DKC does not have color charts or chips. I cannot justify paying a fortune for their "collections" of color portfolios! Has that changed?

Okay, it's 2018 and I just had to comment. I painted my kitchen cabinets with a dark red FPE Eco Satin water based paint in 2004. 14 years later I noticed a few minor chips had developed on two or three of the most used cabinet/drawer door edges and decided it was time for a recoat. When I went to re-order I was shocked to find out it was water-based. I was certain it had been oil given how well it wore. Anyway, well worth the money!

I've used some of their paints. UNREAL good!!! Puts other stuff to shame, & I've been tinting C2 for 16+ years now. It is fundamentally different from normal U.S. paints. The colorants are built different than U.S. colorants as well.

Faron