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Paint formula codes

Arapaho-Rd
13 years ago

Can anyone provide the letter codes and their meanings used for paint formulas?

The letter coding should tell you what colors are added to the base to make the specific color?

Comments (108)

  • Vertise
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What is the issue with using the term "undertones" which I believe has been used to describe color for a very, very long time? Undertones of blue, yellow, rose (ie warm versus cool), or clear colors were used 30 years ago to determine what clothing and makeup colors were most flattering to your complexion. Art also uses the term. I think it's a pretty straightforward way of describing what we see as a basic aspect or underlying nuance of a color we're looking at -- which influences how colors relate to each other. It's a white with a little bit of yellow or a gray with a green tint to it rather than having some blue. Blue based reds versus orange based reds. Why is this term not useful in training the eye or discussion?

    Here is a link that might be useful: Picture of undertone

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Architectural paint isn't cosmetics or fine art paints. There are aspects of color that translate across disciplines and there are aspects that do not.

    Undertone is purely subjective and hinges on individual color acuity and opinion. It is not a standard or benchmark so it's not consistent nor consistently repeatable. It's not scalable.

    Like I said before undertones are applicable and useful in certain circumstances but limited to singular and individual. Like how a fine artist chooses to leverage the undertones of a limited color palette to create greater depth and interest in their work.

  • Vertise
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    When working on specifying paint, then, by "hue bias" you mean a scientific measurable feature of a specific color. This could be a useful tool to help predict its effect somewhere. Similar to LRV.

    For viewing, on the other hand, I think the term "undertone" is still descriptive of the effect someone sees (whether it's on a wall, piece of clothing or artist's paint color), even though it might change by environment or vary by individual (which all still must be accounted for when choosing paint).

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yeah, mostly would agree snooks.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    11 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Was trying to figure out how to explain the reason why I can not get on board with a methodology that revolves around colorants or undertones or any aspect that is not measured. Then I came across this video via facebook on YouTube. I'm going to include it in a blog post so I can expand sometime later this month.

    It seems "qualia" is what I've been looking for. Although we can not color by numbers alone, color order systems give us a unified language from which to speak to color despite variances in color acuity, perceptions and experiences.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Is Your Red The Same as My Red?

  • DonNDE
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm going to stick with this thread since there seems to be a lot of knowledge here. I have asked my contractor to paint my bookcases the same color as my walls. The color on the walls is the color I want. I want the bookcases to be in semi-gloss and the walls to be flat. But now that the painting is done, the semi-gloss color does not match the flat color. The semi-gloss comes out slightly more green/yellow than the flat paint on the wall.

    I have looked at the cans for both. They both say the same color on the can (HC-92 Wheeling Neutral) and on that basis the contractor says they are the same color. But the formulas are very different. (BTW, I asked for a BM color and the contractor took it to Sherwin Williams to mix the paint.)

    Here is the formula for the flat paint:
    Custom Manual Match
    CCE*Colorant OZ 32 64 128
    B1-Black - 16 1 -
    R2-Maroon - 3 - 1
    Y3-Deep Gold - 51 - 1

    Here is the formula for the semi-gloss:
    Custom Sher-Color Match
    CCE*Colorant OZ 32 64 128
    B1-Black - 16 - 1
    R2-Maroon - 3 - 1
    Y3-Deep Gold 2 10 1 -

    So obviously the formulas are different. Would the formula for semi-gloss be so different from flat? How can I convince the contractor that they are not the same color?

    Any thoughts and advice would be very much appreciated.


  • Paint-matcher
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The actual color that was matched is more than likely perfect. The problem is the human eye naturally sees color and shine at the same time. One you have two sheen levels side by side, those colors will never appear the same to an untrained eye. Another question you need to ask is are both paints chemically made from the same material. A water base paint will also appear much different from an acrylic. The same can be said for oil or alkyd based products. No two paints will ever technically be exact even when you use the "same" formula. Different sheens and bases will almost always use either a different formula or different color combinations to achieve virtually the same color. Its been said a hundred times. Color is subjective and no 2 people see the exact same. Hope it helps.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Agree with Paint-matcher.

    In fact, using the "same" color but in different gloss levels is a classic, sure-bet color strategy.

    For example Ben Moore's Natural Wicker in semi-gloss for trim/crown/doors with matte on the walls. Totally gorgeous. Creates a near perfect near neutral atmosphere. Completely harmonious because it's the "same" color. But they look different due to the variance in gloss levels.

    I don't believe I have ever seen the exact same formula for a color appply across different grades/bases and gloss levels; the formula always differs depending on the base/gloss level.

  • Faron79
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    About the formula's across sheens/bases...

    We have a few fandecks in our paint-dept.
    (Fun-C probably has DOZENS...;-))

    * Some have a color-strip showing the same color in different sheens.
    * ALL of them have the same formula across the different sheen levels.
    * It's surprising how different the SAME formula looks in Flat...relative to Gloss.
    * Glosses always appear darker than Flats.
    * Place a tsp. of water on a color-chip. You KNOW the water is CLEAR...yet the color has gotten DARKER!
    * People are genuinely stumped when I show them this little trick!!

    Faron

  • ahs23440
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Can't believe there was a paint color called Tangier Island! I live on Tangier Island, VA. I originally found this post by Googling letters in paint formulas trying to figure out what tints went into my new paint. Now I think I really need to do at least one room in this color. Faron how would be the best way for me to try to get some. I see you wrote your formula was from the ACE color match chart. Should I find an ACE store? If you ever want to see what Tangier Island (the place) is like check out my slide show on youtube search "tangier island slide show".

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    BTW, Faron is right. Of course.

    After this thread I started paying closer attention to formulas flat vs. gloss, etc.. (haven't had that many opportunities to be honest) But the few I've seen by golly the formulas ARE the same across different sheens.

    Could've sworn they were different. Learn somethin' new every day. I heart my GW forum friends. :)

  • Faron79
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ahhhh....this thread is back again!
    (welllll....cool....I kinda like it!)

    Ahs-
    * FIRST, you have to find a Ralph-Lauren Paint Dealer.
    * If it's @ an ACE dealer, the formula I posted will be relevant, unless they use more than 1 colorant line.
    * Our RL formula database/software is of course, based on ACE/Chromacolor colorants.
    * Few...if ANY...RL dealers would keep a separate tinter/colorants just for RL. Too damn expensive!
    * It's a popular "Beige"/neutral here!

    Faron

  • judykrausbrown
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The original Tangier Island, mixed in Ralph Lauren base at Home Depot back when they carried Ralph Lauren, was a gorgeous, subtle, fairly muted gold beige. In full sunlight it goes quite a happy rich gold yellow, without much light it is more beige gold. It is versatile and livable for a rich shade in the yellow family.I still have the color in my Master Bedroom for now. Home Depot stopped carrying Ralph Lauren paint, after I painted my Master Bedroom and decided I wanted to carry the color to the living room.I did have them color match it in Behr paint....the automatic system didn't work, as I already said, so they did it manually, by eye. It was a good match but it never had quite the same richness as the original Ralph paint. I guess I have expensive taste and appreciate the subtleties, :)

    I guess I will have to Google Tangier Island...I have never been there...

    I have another story about color matching involving BM Satin Impervo, this happened just a few weeks ago!!! I don't have time right now but I will try to find time to post it later, it's a good one.

  • Vertise
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Does BM use "B" for black?

    I have a creamy "white" custom mixed by BM that has four colors in it (their full spectrums start at 5 colors). It does not appear to have black. I'm wondering if it will perform similar to a FS (more alive in low light) without the black, even though it has a limited number of pigments.

    Bought it before trying FS, so I have a gallon and really like the sample board. I don't have the formula with me. It is C, Y, W, R, I think.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The allure of full spectrum paint has a lot to do with the metaphysical angle - it's not just about beautiful paint colors engineered differently to respond to inherent light . Similar to modes of other kinds of color therapy, in which case an amount of colorant from each spectral hue is crucial to meet certain beliefs and standards about the power of color.

    So just because a paint color does not have black in the mix, or uses more than 2 or 3 colors, does not a full spectrum color make.

    With all that said, IMHO any time you can mix nuanced color using chords/complements as opposed to relying on black and gray to shade and tone fast and furious, you're gonna get (or engineer) prettier paint colors. Colors sans black have a different bundle of wavelengths to reflect the beams of light than colors mixed with black.

    Black has its place in paint and architectural color and what it brings to the color mixing table can be leveraged too. And colors knocked back with black and gray have their own kinda muddied character that some people simply prefer.

    Whether colors with less than all 7 spectral hues but no black will "perform" like full spectrum is truly a matter of opinion. But they certainly are different from colors mixed with black.

  • Vertise
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The FS Color Stories white I got only has 5 colors. White, three yellows, and a little bit of red. So I guess it flunks true full spectrum. Interesting. I do feel the color is different though and still seems to look so pretty in low light and shadow.

    The 4 color white doesn't seem dulled to me. If it goes up beautiful and hits the mark with my furnishings it doesn't really matter, I just don't want to end up wanting to repaint because it goes flat in certain light.

    Got the correct codes:

    W1
    Y3
    S2
    R1 (just a touch, assume it's red)

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In every color collection there are several colors that do not have black in the formula. Again, they are not full spectrum just because there is no black in the formula. Many colors easily fall under this category.

    Would it be pure marketing genius to simply sort through an existing collection of colors and pick out the ones with more than two or three colorants but no black and then proceed to call it a full spectrum palette? Maybe marketing genius but not really on the up-and-up. Then again marketing is all about spin and getting the unwitting to buy it.

    But surely no respectable paint company would want to dupe it's loyal consumers in such a way as that. Simply moving over colors from one palette to another, slap a label of full spectrum upon its chips and upcharge it would not be a nice thing to do to the average consumer of color.

  • Vertise
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    So then either BM is either duping us or they don't understand full spectrum! Maybe I will ask them to see what they say. Not at the store, because they seem a bit confused about the whole thing.

    Thanks.

  • jsmiff
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow--I found this post through a google search as I had the same question as the original poster. What a wealth of knowledge this group is! Know this thread is crazy old but just wanted to thank you all for sharing so much great information.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Three years later and it's all still true.

    The more things change, the more they stay the same.

  • kendog2
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you to everyone who posted on this thread. The information on the complexities of paint formulas is very helpful. Thanks to YesWeCan for posting the Behr paint codes. I like knowing them even if it might not be as useful as I'd hoped. I was aware that mixing Benjamin Moore colors in Behr paint isn't always accurate but it was interesting to learn why that is true. If not for budget constraints, I would love to purchase Benjamin Moore paint. The nearest Benjamin Moore store is about 30 miles away so that is an issue for me as well. Fortunately, I've had good luck mixing their colors in Behr paint.

    Here is my current problem and my reason for reading this thread. I'm attempting to paint gray and white horizontal stripes on my bathroom wall. For the white, I chose BM Simply white since we will be using that color for all the trim in our house. I had the color mixed and used it to cut in on the walls. I haven't rolled it yet but I can see that it looks too bright against the tile. (The tile is white but it looks really gray next to Simply white. To avoid wasting the paint, I would like to try to re-tint it closer to the color of White Dove.

    Knowing that this won't be easy to do, I called Behr instead of asking the paint mixing staff at Home Depot. They gave me their formula for White Dove but couldn't advise on what to add to the Simply White formula to make it look similar to White Dove. Can anyone help with this?

    Here is the Simply White formula that is currently in the one gallon can of flat enamel:
    AXL - 20/384ths LL - 16/384ths

    White Dove formula

    C - 3 shots plus 1/2 shot
    E - 1 shot plus 1/2 shot
    I - 1 shot

    I'm fully aware that I may not be successful in adding the right colorants to get the White Dove color in this can. If I had to do it myself, I would guess that I would need to add less of the C to compensate for the AXL that is already in there since they're both yello but beyond that, I have no clue. Is anyone (Faron) willing to give me your best guess at how to adjust this formula? If it doesn't work, I'll just start over with a new gallon. Thanks.

  • User
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    @judykrausbrown Jan 31/2013; thank you for the list re the Behr code list. Realizing that 'the experts' appear to disagree with you; like yourself I personally have found having knowledge of the colorants very helpful as when in doubt I often have had a paint colour half cut first then have worked from there tweaking the colorants to the colour "I" desire which in return on many, many occasions have saved me a lot of anguish and a lot $$$ ..... ☺.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    8 years ago

    So it has been five years since this thread was started.

    And I can reaffirm that approaching paint colors from a formula perspective is still a complete waste of time.

    But if you're hell-bent on believing that there is some strategy to be found looking at a list of colorants, you need to ask if that "code" up there for Behr colorants is still correct. Because it's been two years. And like I said a couple times in the thread, the pace at which colorants and bases change in paint world is fast. So if you want to play that game, you pretty much have to verify "colorant codes" on an ongoing basis.

    One more thing for you to think about with regard to why futzing with paint color formulas won't work is this thing called, "substance uncertainty". It's a term coined by Bruce MacEvoy over at the HandPrint website.

    He says in one short, concise paragraph exactly what I've been trying to convey to the readers here on GW for more than ten years:

    "Unfortunately, the color mixture "predictions" made by subtractive color theory are often inaccurate, because the light absorbing properties of a colorant are affected by its physical state — its particle size, transparency, density, dispersion or medium, the color of the substrate, the other colorants it is mixed with, the thickness of the color layer, and so on. I call these problems substance uncertainty: because of them, the color of ingredient substances does not determine the color of their mixtures. Often, colorants must be physically mixed in order to find out what their mixture color will be." ~Bruce MacEvoy


  • PRO
    Burk-Kleinpeter Inc (BKI)
    8 years ago

    This is a very long thread, but it can be summed up in one sentence. Color is subjective and therefore there is no way to pin down a specific color to an objective formula.

    I can tell you after putting hundreds of gallons of paint on walls, ceilings, floors, decks, exteriors, furniture, vehicles, etc. you never know exactly what you're going to get until the rubber hits the road, err, paint hits the surface. Something not mentioned anywhere in the thread is that is what is under the paint has a tremendous effect. Texture and underlying color/material will affect the final outcome of any paint job. This is based on years of experience, not color matching computers.

    The big factor which has been touched on is LIGHT, and on that subject I am a professional and expert. I can take any color that makes you warm and fuzzy and totally change it with nothing more than changing the light source. And one thing I can promise you is that light sources are like people, no two are the same. By extension, no two color matching computers are identical. They all use a light source or sources of some kind and that has a direct impact on what the computer "sees". Any variation in the source and the computer sees different color components, thus varying formulas for the same sample. Yes the machines can and are calibrated to compensate, but that comes down to the maintenance each store does on their equipment.

    And like the computers, we all perceive color in different ways. That is why color palettes have thousands of "colors". Whatever floats your boat so to speak. But there is a big factor in that everybody's eyes are slightly different just like the computers. We perceive color with the cones in our retina, three types each with a different pigment. These are blue, green, and red each at a certain wavelength. The blue and green wavelengths are spaced out in the spectrum, but red and green are close. Overlap between red and green cones and you have color blindness. Each person has a slightly different sensitivity to the three wavelengths, thus each perceives the same color differently, even if only slightly. Go to http://www.enchroma.com/technology/ to see further how this works (and learn something about color blindness). Colorants or pigments absorb certain wavelengths and reflect others, and when mixed together they interact with each other in not so predictable ways, as the quote by Bruce MacEvoy above points out. I remember airbrushing and we mixed a drop of white to about one CC of crimson red air brush acrylic paint and it gave a perfect skin tone, not pink like you might think, but a perfect tan color. By the amount of paint applied to the canvas we could control how light or dark the tone was from a light skinned Caucasian to a darker skinned Latino. Why do gloss and flat look different? Simple, flat disperses or scatters light, gloss functions more like a mirror and therefore reflects light off of its surface which contains more of the full spectrum, thus skewing our perception of the underlying color.

    Colorants, tints, pigments, whatever you want to call them, no two brands or suppliers are identical and even with the same brand/supplier, no two batches are identical. No two mixing machines are identical. So whatever formula you use there will always be a slight or large variation in the outcome.

    So if you want to know how whatever formula is going to look, put it on whatever surface you intend to paint with it, a large portion, maybe even an entire wall. Let it dry (correct term cure) for several days. Introduce whatever lighting source you intend to use (indoors) or a clear day outside, and whatever accessories you intend to combine in the space, or trim colors outside. Then, and only then, will you truly know what you have. If you think you can bend nature, then go ahead and tweak the formula yourself, but I wager you won't get what you think you will, not to mention the spouse or significant other standing next to you that sees a totally different scene than you do. Folks it is literally all in your head, where the optic nerve meets the brain.


  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    8 years ago

    "If you think you can bend nature, then go ahead and tweak the formula yourself, but I wager you won't get what you think you will, not to mention the spouse or significant-other standing next to you that sees a totally different scene than you do."

    Well said, @Burk-Kleinpeter Inc (BKI)


  • Vertise
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I was having a terrible time finding the right color for my bathroom. The colors were never what I thought they would be. So I took two of the colors I had sampled and started mixing them in a container, trying to offset the color problems with the tones I was seeing. I mixed until liked the color I saw and it looked like it would work. Presto. Had it matched. Finally could get that bathroom painted.

    I sure wasted a ton of time and money trying countless sample colors.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    8 years ago

    I mixed until liked the color I saw...

    That makes your experience different from what the core topic of this thread is about.

    Awesome you were able to assess pro's and con's from two paint colors you had in-hand. You had an opportunity to physically and thoroughly evaluate the characteristics of each and then proceeded to mix them together to create a color you love, snookums2.

    That's not the same as getting a list of colorants and trying to predict what the color is going to look like once applied and dried - based solely on the list of colorants.

    That's not the same as having a gallon of color you don't like and thinking you can successfully tweak it to what you do want by looking at a list of colorant codes and GUESSING not only which ones to add, but how much to add.

  • Vertise
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    I was making a suggestion for arriving at a color one might like. I tweaked colors myself, successfully and quite quickly, using another method. Worked for me, might work for someone else. We all end up with a boatload of paint on hand that wasn't quite right anyway.

    Don't get what the problem is. It's an open discussion and an open internet forum.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    8 years ago

    I did write that in a bit of a hurry so the edges might read a lil sharp to some - sorry about that. Certainly not what I intended. Totally my fault, snookums2.

    No problem here. Actually, I think it's pretty great we had the opportunity to spell out the issue in more detail, snookums2. Never, ever would I discourage any topic growing beyond its original scope.

    I was (clumsily) trying to clarify how your suggestion, which is a good one, was very different from the notion that acquiring a list of colorant codes and/or colorants used in a paint color formula could be of any value.

  • Vertise
    8 years ago

    Well, it sure didn't come across that way :P Let's just forget it. Thanks for writing back. No one likes to be told their input is irrelevant or to keep quiet! lol



  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    8 years ago

    Oh my gosh, no they certainly do not. I'm so glad you spoke up so I could explain myself and apologize. I'd be absolutely crushed if I left you with hurt feelings or thinking I was telling you to keep quiet.

  • jasmine123go
    8 years ago

    Found this on a blog called "myperfectcolor". I found the info useful so I thought I would post here.

    "The colorants used for Benjamin Moore Aura are: Blue (B1), Thalo Green (G1), Magenta (M1), Orange (O1), Red Toner (R1), Organic Red (R2), Oxide Red (R3), Black (S1), Gray (S2), White (W1), Organic Yellow (Y1) (Exterior use), Organic Yellow (Y2) and Oxide Yellow (Y3)"


  • krystarz
    8 years ago

    Ok time for my 2 cents worth oh wait no more pennies used in Canada so my 5 cents worth.

    the formulas for color in paint may change in volume per measures from month to month so that gallon of butter sunshine you got last month if they follow the tag from your previous can exactly the tint may not be the same. This isn't the persons or machine that did your paints fault. The problem is that the base pigments that the companies buy might be slightly diffrent because the base that they're made of may change from one batch to the next. So if you are buying say 5 gallons to do a whole house interior it might be a good idea to buy an extra gallon fo down the road patchs.

    Now to digress even further light is as has been said changes color say from fluorescence incandescent to sunlight...

    first what you perceive isn't the pigments color it's your perception of what light is absorbed and not reflected. This means that the three light sources might not have the same parts of light.

    going into the way back machine there is the old school color wheel which is still used as the basis for color formations. Alas that wheel was made from light spectrum colors.

    if you mix straight by that paint isn't true to what you see adding white or black adjusts the reflective properties.


  • Danielle M Williams
    8 years ago

    Can someone please help I bought a qt or behr moonlit beach and then the next day bought a gallon same sheen but the labels have different formulas why is this or are they actually different colors

  • Alicia Bruce
    7 years ago

    Hope some one can help because the "paint pros" at home depot don't have a clue.

    I have a custom sample of Behr with the codes at 384th oz with AXL/3 BL/17 and LL/10. It's a gray. The pro couldn't get the computer to compute this code to a gallon.

    She color matched it and the code is BL/256 CL/68 and LL/48. The color is a shade lighter. Does anyone know how to manually code to a gallon?

  • Faron79
    7 years ago

    Paint colorant/formula databases are usually based on 1oz (of colorant) being divied into 48ths, 96ths, 128ths, or 384ths. 384 is a factor of 8x relative to 48ths.

    What size can is that sample?! Then it's just math!!

    Faron


  • Alexander Perlis
    7 years ago

    Here's an example where the specific color codes might actually matter. At HD I bought 4 gallons of Behr Exterior Satin color "Louvre", which has certain codes on the label: AXL, JL, KXL, TL. Unfortunately 4 gallons wasn't sufficient, so went back a week later to buy 2 more gallons. Identical codes and quantities (including base code) on label, yet new cans (which match each other) don't match the old cans (which matched each other). Based on posts in this forum, the problem could be a different batch of base had arrived from the manufacturer, or more simply the color mixing machine got "recalibrated" between my visits. So now I want to ask the color matching computer to match the old color BUT RESTRICT ITSELF TO ACHIEVING THAT MATCH USING ONLY AXL, JL, KXL, TL. When I took in a paint chip from the original batch to try to get the computer to "match" it, they sampled the chip multiple times, the multiple results were inconsistent to each other (different colorant combinations and even different choices of colorants!), and none of the results used only AXL, JL, KXL, TL. As far as I can tell, there's no way to tell the computer to try to match using a restricted set of colorants, or maybe the operator doesn't know how. Can one perhaps tell the computer "The store is *out* of the other colorants, these are the only ones available, how close can we get to this paint chip using the available colorants?" Or any other advice on how to finish my project? It's a disaster now, and I'm thinking the only solution is to start over with 6 new gallons bought at once and re-paint everything. I don't care so much about the precise color I just want it all to be consistent, and most of it was painted with original 4 gallons. Expert advice is welcome!

  • M F
    6 years ago

    Here's an issue. Took my can of Valspar satin finish in to Lowes to color match since the paint lady previously told me she could not use a screen-shot of the label formula.

    Then told could not put that formula into Reserve. Had to go into Signature--ok, fine.

    Thought color looked slightly darker, she thought it looked fine but was so frustrated with unhappy worker that knew I should be able to tweek it with some white.

    What I noticed when I got home was that the can I took in was 'base B' what she gave me was 'base C'

    use to have a guy who knew how to 'adjust' colors to get you thecirrect match and could tell you what color your custom color closely matched to in their chip colors. This woman said 'not possible' grrr.


  • M F
    6 years ago

    And I should add that this can of satin is much shinier that my previous can. It's more like semi-gloss.

  • Janelle Holm
    4 years ago

    From Home Depot:


    Here is the color code breakdown:

    CL=yellow oxide

    LL=raw umber

    VL=magenta

    JL=carbazole purple

    EL=phthalo blue

    IL=brown iron oxide

    RL=permanent red

    DL=phthalo green

    TL=medium yellow

    FL=red iron oxide

    BL=black

    KXL=white

    AXL=permanent yellow

    YL=high hide yellow

    I hope this helps

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    4 years ago
    last modified: 4 years ago

    Now nine years later and I'm still gonna tell you the same thing.


    The formula is not the genesis of a paint color.


    One of the most pervasive memes is that there is some code to DEcode in color formulas. That the same list of 12, 14 or 16 colorants used to make thousands of colors just in different proportions, some how has isolated and magnified meaning to a single paint color.

    The paint color formula provides no information about color appearance, how a color will be perceived by a human observer in a certain context.

    All colors are born in theoretical color space using color data values, math, equations. That same arithmetic is used to figure out the paint color formula; how much of each colorant, what color is the base, etc.

    The colors per se are BORN from a kind of code so there is nothing to DEcode.

    You simply have to know how to find and use that original 'code' of color - a code of color data values are sometimes referred to as color DNA.

    And thanks to new color tools and tech, it's getting easier and easier to get that color DNA information.

  • irol96
    4 years ago

    Why not keep this post alive? Here is a real use-case that basically confirms paint colors is generally a crapshoot, per the amazing insight of all the posts above.

    After many many many (embarrassing to say how many) samples, I decided on seapearl by Benjamin Moore. Primed and painted a wall only to ONLY see yellow. In the sample on my wall, it had been more stark/Greige. I changed all the lightbulbs, watched it at all times of night. Finally put up my new fresh gallon on top of my original sample on a different wall where the sample still lived .... and saw a difference. (See photo one) (yes one is flat and one is eggshell but the difference was not just sheen)

    My Benjamin Moore folks are close and have been great - checked the formulas and even came to my house themselves. After testing, their conclusion was that my paint sample had settled and the new gallon paint was the right color, which is a shame, because I want the color on the right (the sample)

    Though I could see how they got to that conclusion, Something was just gnawing at me that that answer didn’t explain all of it. And lo and behold I started doing my own “testing” from various sources of seapearl that I’ve collected over the last year. See photo two, which shows three paint chips of seapearl (two are labeled oc-19 and one is labeled 916) followed by two of their “tests” using my sample and my gallon —- all on a wall painted by the same gallon in the test. While all are close, none are the same...... what’s a girl to do???

    In the end, I guess I just have to move on. For whatever reason, seapearl is oddly rendering yellow in this space with my eyes. And I have to stare at it everyday. So back to the drawing board...... thank you for those who contributed to these posts that basically validated that I’m not insane and that there’s little I can do but throw my hands up to the color gods....

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    4 years ago

    The large color chips that you order directly from the brand is the true, final answer for a paint color.


    Because they are made with paint. Paint chips are not printed, they are not ink on paper as some claim.


    A special lacquer-based paint is used that dries quickly and the color standards for accuracy are strict. The paint chips have to appear accurate under at least 3 different light sources.


    Everything that's mixed, whether it's a sample, one gallon or five gallons, is susceptible to some kind of human error. Whether it's computer/machine calibration or something else.


    The paint chip (again they are real paint) is the only consistent "target" that you can count on and everything should be mixed to match the large chip.

  • bondia
    3 years ago

    Lori A. Sawaya, this quote from your comment above - "The paint color formula provides no information about color appearance, how a color will be perceived by a human observer in a certain context." So are you saying, just for example, that a paint formula consisting of Black, Magenta and Deep Gold could potentially have a greenish undertone? In other words, could an undertone show without that specific colorant being in the formula or recipe? Thank you.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    3 years ago

    It absolutely could.


    Let me clear, I have no clue what you'd get for sure.


    No one could know until they mixed it and could look at the result.


    A paint color formula is a ratio. The proportion of each colorant means everything.


    Knowing a paint color "has a 32nd of an ounce shot of magenta" is useless information, for example.


    Because you need in depth knowledge of each colorant's strength, density and underlying signature - AND - at the same time, you must have a comprehensive grasp of the math used to determine how much of each colorant goes in the can because the proportion matters.


    For each brand.


    For each tint system.


    For each can of base paint.


    Colorants and base are the ingredients to a paint color recipe (formula).


    The next layer to this is understanding substance interaction.


    In other words, in order to use a paint color formula to predict a dried paint color's appearance, you have to have an intimate understanding of each colorant, each base and how each interacts and affects the other at every specific quantity interval.


    For every brand. Because each brand has their own special ingredients to make their paint.


    To your point about magenta, black and gold showing up as a color that's greenish - it's feasible. Because maybe the black colorant has an underlying green signature. For example, I know ICI/Dulux's black leans teal.


    Maybe the magenta has an underlying blue signature. We could go on and on with different scenarios of possible results from combining just these three colorant ingredients.


    Think about the fact that every brand uses the same 10 or 12 colorants to mix a range of tens of thousands of colors.


    This is why every paint color is born in theoretical color space. You need a computer and color data values to create formulas for tens of thousands of paint colors consisting of varying proportions of the same 10 or 12 colorants.


    So, if you want to predict color appearance, the smart thing to do is use the same color space and data values that were used to create the formula in the first place.


    Because in order to make the color it has to be defined and described first.


    Color is defined and described using data values.


    Color data values quantify how the human eye actually sees color.


    The paint color formula is nothing more than an insignificant albeit necessary detail in the middle.



  • bondia
    3 years ago

    Lori A. Sawaya, thank you for this. Very educational and helpful. I appreciate your taking the time to explain. I did a search before posting on Houzz and didn't find anything that really explained the concept this directly.

  • bondia
    3 years ago

    Lori A. Sawaya, would a correct corollary of this be - if you take a paint formula to 125% or 150%, theoretically it could change the undertone?

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    3 years ago

    Paint colors - all colors - don't have undertones.


    There's a lot of misunderstanding about this theory.


    Here's why attempting to categorize and/or align color by undertones doesn't work.


    Undertones are someone's subjective opinion of how a color actually looks - to them - under unspecified light sources in whatever context they happen to be in.


    They use the word undertone to describe any amount of discernible hue.


    Undertones aren't a fact of color.


    They're transient moments of color perception.


    Color data values (or notations) are a fact of color. The fact that they're used to develop the formula needed to make the color. The fact that the color can be duplicated with precision can after can in multiple locales. The fact that anyone from anywhere in the world can follow industry standards to measure swatches of the color and get near-identical results to the original data, etc.


    So, "theoretically it could change the undertone" is a bit of an oxymoron because the only factual fact about undertones is that they're inconsistent, transient and as a result confusing.


    would a correct corollary of this be - if you take a paint formula to 125% or 150%,


    This is a great question because it connects all the dots here nicely.


    I think you have connected the dots which is why you are asking such good questions.


    Because we're back to the fact that formulas are ratios and proportions of each color are everything.


    Bottom line: Adjusting colorants + or - results in a new color.


    All 3 dimensions of color will be affected. Not just the part one might want to change, like lightness.


    The new color may have similar hue/value/chroma/LRV attributes to the originating color or it might not.


    As a consumer/designer without the support of a color lab, we can't know how similar until you mix the color, let it dry, measure it, and compare the original data values to the new color's DNA (color data values).












  • bondia
    3 years ago

    Lori A. Sawaya - "transient moments of color perception" - that is a perfect description of the ever changing colors I am looking at. I've decided in frustration this evening that there is no perfect color, at least among the light neutrals, as they change so much depending on the light and their surroundings that there is no moment of color that is the defining point of what that color is. Maybe in a lab but not in a real life home. Thank you for your help understanding this.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    3 years ago

    there is no moment of color that is the defining point of what that color is. Maybe in a lab but not in a real life home.


    Exactly.


    The factual color data values and notations (color DNA) that define and describe color appearance are a framework for comparing color, predicting color appearance AND also managing how it shows up installed.




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