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ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Posted by flyleft (My Page) on
Mon, Sep 17, 07 at 2:00

Mentioned in Parade Mag today, in an article in reducing energy costs: adding a non-toxic ceramic powder to interior wall paint will insulate the room permanently.

Is this true? And if so, (how) does it change the look of the paint? Does it distribute evenly? When to put it in? What brand is the best/most accessible? Sounds like a wonderful upgrade, if it really is feasible.

All information/opinions/leads/caveats/how-tos gratefully accepted :)


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Here's one I found...WOW re the claims/testimonials...anyone here have any experience with this?

Here is a link that might be useful: hytech additives/paint


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Pure bovine scatology.
The paint film thickness is not enough to have an appreciable R value.
If the addative was R-100 per inch and you added 0.01 inches you would net out R-1.
The same as one inch of wood.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Hm, brickeyee, thanks for your reply. I did notice that the comparisons were always to *unpainted* surface, not regularly-painted surface, at least the ones I saw. What you say makes sense too; I wanted to find a specific R-value claim/proof. Maybe I just hadn't looked around the site enough, but I didn't find one.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

I painted the exterior of the house here white ... kept track of temperature changes and heat retention.
Goal was reducing the power bill.

My experience is Ceramic stuff Works! on the exterior.

Concrete Block and Stucco.. To me the want was to give up the heat fast, and reflect it off the wall too so the wall has the least heat gain. Premix does that I would say, extremely well. All of its ingrediants apparently are chosen with the idea of reflecting and disipating heat quickly. Premix works much better than just mixing some gray dust into KillZ anyhow.

I started off py painting sample wall areas with KillZ primer - plain primer, and areas with added ceramic spheres.
Shot them with a heat gun off and on through the day and night - took my time, several weeks of experimenting.
Spheres added to KillZ primer was no competition for areas painted with Ceramic Force primer - from National Coatings, which is local here.

Digital watt hour meter and lots of measuring surface wall temps.. both inside and outside, told me that stuff really does work.

When I painted the front of the house, which is the south wall. Power Company Meter showed a 3kwh per day drop instantly, from just that south wall, mid summer.

Painting with that stuff will sunburn me way fast too, even in the shade. I'm fixing to order some interior paint for the ceilings. Maybe the walls too. Make it all white I dont have to worry so much about edging and splatters ;)


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Actually...brickeyee's comments are incorrect. This type of product works on a different scientific level than products with an (R( factor. Because of this...thickness has nothing to do with product performance. It is completely trying to compare apples to oranges.

Here is a link that might be useful: R values and heat transfer


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive..take 2

Oops...don't know why it came out like that. The post in complete form is:

Actually...brickeyee's comments are incorrect. This type of product works on a different scientific level than products with an (R) factor. Because of this...thickness has nothing to do with product performance. It is completely trying to compare apples to oranges.
Standard insulation is meant to resist (R), or slow down, the transfer of heat. The thicker the better. Ceramics reflect heat. This is why the tiles on the shuttle aren't 4 feet thick.

Different scientific principles...very different results.

The information is out there and available for the reading.

This is just some of the information I give my customers when going on my paint estimates:


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Thanks, mikie & homeprotex. I very much appreciate your posts. So homeprotex, you would recommend the Hy-Tech line? What would you think of adding it to paint I already have (I need to do one final coat in the new master bedroom and north bedroom when we're done with the electrics)?


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

I would absolutely recommend their products. Most everything they have is on my house...and those of family members. I also use the ceramics and radiant barrier attic paint as extra selling points to my paint customers.

The ceramics will work well in your paint. That's what I get for my customers and just mix it into their paint. The thing to know is that you will need two coats of paint that have ceramics. It takes two coats to get sufficient and even distribution of the tiny spheres on the surface.

Because the ceramics reflect heat back to the source...painting the interior will give mostly winter benefits and painting outside will give mostly summer benefits. They do work well in all situations though.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

It is pure BS, as is the linked sight.

" "We attached two layers of inch-thick polystyrene foam insulation boards to the exterior walls, next a wire lath, and finally, stucco. After the stucco had dried, it was painted a light color. Total retrofit costs ranged from $3,610 to $4,550 per house, averaging $3.34 per square foot of exterior wall area to be covered with insulation." "

What does this have to do with ceramic paint?
Polystyrene works by interrupting the conduction path (low mass, lots of voids) and works the same as fiberglass (low mass. lots of voids).

If the junk worked they would have an R value stated.
R value does not depend on HOW the heat moves, just HOW MUCH HEAT moves.

ftFh/Btu are the units of R value.
square feet of area, temp difference (delta T), hours, and BTUs.
It does not matter HOW the heat moves, just that it moves.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

@ brickeyee

With as much respect as I can muster...you either did not read the entire page or did not understand the point made.

It is stated on the page that standard methods of insulation work mostly against heat transfer by conduction. It does so by using air gaps or voids to slow down the transfer. Your post makes clear that you understand and agree with that.
What your reply does not address is how it has been proven (by the test) that standard insulation can also INCREASE heat load and retention in certain circumstances.

Once again...these products work by the REFLECTION of heat...not the RESISTANCE to its transfer. A completely different scientific concept.
I'm sure at one time there were people who thought the idea of using a telephone with no wires was BS.

If you had read the page provided...and looked at any of the other information on the site...you would have more of an understanding of the concepts involved. Their FAQ number 1 addresses the R value myth you feel so strongly about.

To form an opinion based on no knowledge of something is an opinion I will leave up to others to define.

If you have any interest in forming an educated opinion I invite you to contact me (my email is clearly provided) or the company. I'm sure they will be just as helpful to you as they were to me when I considered using it and was skeptical.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

A ceramic beads inside a paint film are not going to reflect anything.
Even aluminum foil reflectors degrade when they get dirty.
Your product is BS.

When you post the test results from a certified lab for the change in the insulation value you might get some attention.
Until then you have sales claims and nothing more.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Thank you both for your insights...I still have lots of questions but I will keep digging.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

I ordered the radiant barrier and ceramic additive from Hy-Tech for two of my dining room walls that are plaster over exposed brick. The radiant barrier is basically aluminum paint. My question is whether using both would be overkill in the interior of the room. Also, there is some concern about toxicity with the radiant barrier (the room does not have good ventilation).

Does anyone have any idea whether using both these products offers a real advantage over just the insulating paint? The company says that using both is recommended, but the information accompanying the product doesn't. I'm mildly suspicious about the company's advice, since of course they want to sell their products.

Ideas, anyone, before I take the plunge and blow almost $40 worth of paint? I'm not interested in whether anyone thinks the stuff is good or bad, just in the relative value of using both products together inside a house.

Thanks.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

The nice thing about that barrier paint as a base coat is then you're forced to put on at least two topcoats. Which you'll buy more beads ceramic for.

I'd put that barrier paint under the roof, where it will do some good.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Unfortunately my crawl space is too small for anyone to really get into. I do plan to put on two coats of the ceramic paint. But I'm thinking of saving the radiant barrier until spring and putting it on my aluminum porch, which is uninsulated (even the roof). Thanks. Has anyone else had experience with this stuff?


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Still waiting for independent testing lab results on ceramic additives...


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Again....the information is readily available on the website. An exhaustive test that took over 4 months of data. It was performed at a university, at their own cost.
Generally, the scientific community does not consider a test to be independent if it is commissioned by (and paid for) the maker of a product.

The reason for using the radiant barrier coat is to get an additional layer of ceramics on the surface and to apply a coat of the aluminum. The aluminum is very efficient at reflecting radiant forms of heat. The amount of ceramics it takes to add to topcoats is very very small and costs only a few dollars.
The system is recommended for ultimate efficiency...not any other reason.

Any questions...feel free to ask.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Universities are NOT independent testing labs.
The labs have the setups, knowledge, and equipment to preform insulation value tests.
Not some grad student who is doing a 'one off'.
Get a code certifying lab and you might have a leg to stand on.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

I have a brick on block house that is impossible to insulate. Does anyone have any experience with this ceramic additive on interior walls in cold weather?


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Brick on block is tough...but can be dealt with well.
The additive alone will work but there is another option that will give even better results.

If you paint the interior side of walls that share the exterior, and ceilings with a coat of ceramic radiant barrier paint (also contains aluminum) it would be a good first step. Cover this with any paint with the ceramics added and the benefits will improve even more.

There is a report from a user who documented his temperature differences along with furnace run times here:
http://www.hytechsales.com/testimonials.html
It's the one titled real deal.

Also, there is an article in the Parade magazine from recognized home improvement experts here:
http://www.parade.com/articles/editions/2007/edition_09-16-2007/Lower_Energy_Bills

I've used it all as well....so if you have any questions feel free to email me if you wish.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Thanks, homeprotex... I don't 100% trust testimonials put forward by manufacturers, but the Parade article convinced me it's worth a try! Guess I better get some of that radiant barrier paint too... Do you add the ceramic to paint that has been tinted, or do you just put it on white and cover with your color as the last step? I'm concerned that the additive will alter my paint color. Thanks.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

I live in Texas..Have a laundry room on the west side of the house, which is of course the hottest. Before I painted the ceiling & walls with insulating paint I couldn't get out the room fast enough..not anymore..it's no hotter than the middle or the east side of the house. I painted it about three summers ago putting 2 or three coats on the west & south walls. I'm telling you, it worked here. It does leave a suede look.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

"...the Parade article convinced me it's worth a try!"

Wonder how it even came to Parade's attention?


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

@ hoyasncats...
Terribly sorry for the late reply. Just got back from a huge remodel in NC. Gorgeous home in the mountains....but no internet and barely any cell reception.

I just add the ceramic to tinted paint. It never changes the color unless it's put into an extremely dark color. Because we use so much of it, shipping the powder is the cheap option. The only mixed paints we use are the radiant barrier, the exterior masonry elastomeric, and the ceiling paint.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

This is the first that i have heard of this technology and i am certainly interested in lowering heating bills here in wisconsin. Am i able to buy this ceramic powder at a local home improvement store? are there other brands that are just as good or is this homeprotex the only place i can get it? how much does it cost?
thank you for any information i can get


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

I bought a bunch of the beads from hytechsales.com at around $10 per gal for the beads only.

But for me the better product & value too was buying 5 gal pales of paint with the beads already in it from www.nationwidecoatings.com at around $100 each.

Did the exterior of the house and yes it made big difference on the a/c bill... considerably less. It also made a big difference in the winter heating bill too... its way more! - lacking that solar heat gain.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Lots of great discussions! I have seen many claims made by these companies but have yet to see proof.

Customer testimonials are great but unreliable at best as most people want to believe a certain technology is going to work if they spend money, time, and effort on it.

I have a large amount of experience with insulating ceramics and 'radiant barrier' paints. Some simple truths to clear the air about this topic...

1) Any type of radiant barrier (Foil or Paint) does 100% of it's work on the surface. It REFLECTS heat, does not slow down conductive heat transfer. It's all about e-value or emissivity. Here is how I know...
http://rima.net/pdf_files/Evaluation of Coatings for Use as Interior Radiation Control Coatings.pdf

2) Ceramic material inherently has have emissivity and low reflectivity levels. Ceramic bricks on the shuttle are not 4 feet thick but they are about 4 inches thick. I know, I have one 2 feet from me now. They do work against conductive heat transfer as the air molecules are creating friction on the surface of the bricks and the bricks greatly SLOW DOWN the transfer of heat, not reflect it(the heat is already on the surface of the brick).

3) Lets review. Company makes ceramic powder. Says it has a hollow center in these spheres but can't prove it. Says they have amazing insulating powers, yet has no testing to substantiate this (and no reason why they do not). I have a 16 page report from a college professor in Turkey that can't prove a significant reduction in heat transfer. He proves Ceramic Paints work better then Latex paint, but not 1' thick extruded foam board. I have a hard time believing that any object mixed in any paint could actually reflect heat as it is covered with paint!

Go into your bathroom and paint your mirror. Can you still see your reflection? Ultraviolet and Infrared waves act in much the same way visible light waves act and react to surfaces.

If anyone can provide me with proof that insulating ceramics work well enough to actually have an effect on residential or commercial energy usage, I will ship you 20 gallons worth of the Hy-Tech powder as that is about what I have left over after doing some very extensive testing on my own. I'll ship you the powder if you can even give me a reason why these companies cannot prove their products work with some kind of recognized test format.

Thanks for the good debates and good luck.

Here is a link that might be useful: Reflective Insulation Manufacturers Association


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

I'd speculate that it depends a Whole Bunch> on what the paint base consists of that you mix those magic beads into.

Seems some paints retain heat much more than others, some tints probably hold heat even better.
I wasnt thrilled walking around measuring temps with hytech beads in kilz primer... but was thrilled with NatCoat ceramic paint that supposedly all the ingreadiants where choosen with disapating heat in mind.

Stuff works well on my house.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

The properties of the paint have no effect on how true ceramics work to reflect heat and block its transfer. Surface temperature measurements will also show no difference. A measurement on the back side of the painted surface, however, will show a distinct difference.
Surface temperature measurements are based only on color of the paint and the shortcomings of a non contact thermometer. The readings from these type of devices can be changed based on color, sheen, and texture of the surface. Your results most likely showed a positive result due to the fact that a new coat of white paint was applied.

National Coatings does not use ceramics. They use borosilicate glass beads (if anything). This is a material that is manufactured from recycled glass and is usually used as an inexpensive filler for plastics and concrete.

As far as the comments from texasrbs...
Much of what he is trying to refer to has to do with radiant barrier coatings. This is a completely different type of product.
The comments made are quite incorrect. Emissivity means nothing. It's a very complicated subject...and since we are not talking about radiant barrier coatings in this thread I'll not bore anyone with the details.
The simple truth is that white paint has an emissivity of .9. Black paint has an emissivity of .9.
Which one would you rather paint with?

Another point that should be noted when considering these comments is that texasrbs is not an impartial open minded member of the forum.
He is a former distributor for Hy-Tech. He paid a licensing fee for the rights to a territory after a great deal of research and even visited their facility.
He was let go by the company due to questionable business practices.
Just something that readers of this thread should be aware of.

Again...all I know is that true ceramics work. They have lowered my personal bills, those of my family and friends, and because of that have become a large part of the services I offer my customers (all of whom are quite happy with the results).

Since NASA and nationally recognized home improvement experts are on board...that's good enough for me.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

"Since NASA and nationally recognized home improvement experts are on board...that's good enough for me."

And that is pure BS also.
The INDEPENDENT testing performed on this garbage has shown it is NO MORE EFFECTIVE than any other paint of the same color.

Snake oil has always been expensive.
It is very hard to extract oil from snakes.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Really....brick...we get it.
We ALL get it. You don't like the stuff. Don't think it works. Won't make the slightest attempt to educate yourself by reading a website. Won't take me up on my offer of sending me an email so that I can help. Know nothing of what you're talking about....

You just want to keep screaming BS...

The only thing that is BS and NOT EFFECTIVE is your uneducated opinion.
The only thing you are doing at this point is embarrassing yourself.

You must be great fun at parties ;-)


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

"We ALL get it. You don't like the stuff. Don't think it works. Won't make the slightest attempt to educate yourself by reading a website. Won't take me up on my offer of sending me an email so that I can help. Know nothing of what you're talking about...."

i have reviewed all the site on this crap, and it remains just that crap.
Guess all that time for a PhD was just wasted.

You are the one embarrassing yourself by posting test results from sources that have NO specific knowledge what they are testing.
I hire grad students to run tests, but would never stoop to trying to claim that the university "endorsed' the product.

You claim NASA support, yet NOTHING indicates NASA tested an evaluated the product.

When you can post a cogent explanation of what the product is in physics and engineering terms, and HOW it works in the same terms you can gain some credibility, until than all you have is "Billy Joe Bob says it works."

You have yet to post a SINGLE fact that explains anything.
You sound just like the fools selling magnets to 'soften' water; do you have a franchise for that also?


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

And brickhead says...

"i have reviewed all the site on this crap, and it remains just that crap.
Guess all that time for a PhD was just wasted."
Well...apparently it was...if grammar and syntax had anything to do with the curriculum.

Really dude...don't type angry. Slow down and preview the post first. That way...they might make more sense. I doubt it...but there's always the chance.

All of our differences aside...I do have to thank you.
Your posts have driven a great deal of traffic to the Hy-Tech site...and these people have actually read and grasped the concept. They have purchased the product and experienced lower utility bills.

The owner of Hy-Tech was kind enough to share the wealth that you generated....so if your ears are burning around 8p.m. Central...it's because the wife and I will be toasting you with a good red wine over a great Angus steak.

Best of luck to you....and the floor is now yours for the "last word" that you seem to desperately require.

I'm out....


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Sitting on top of a hill, there was an old wise bull and a young bull. Down in the pasture below was a bunch of female cows grazing. The young bull jumped up and said to the wise old bull, "lets RUN down the hill and get us ONE"! The wise old bull turned to the young'n and said, " no, lets WALK down the hill and get them ALL"!


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Standing out in the dark shooting the wall temps, NatCoat's recycled glass bead in their paint worked better than the HyTech ceramic beads in Kilz.
Light beige painted oncrete block wall, that retained heat all the way up to sunrise, were at ambient temps a couple hours after sundown with NatCoat, where the ceramic beads in kilz was above ambience until around 2 am.
Same west wall, same night, same two or three coats.

Measuring temps on interior of an inside wall that was a heat generator - stucco over wood, cubby holes and bookshelfs on the inside -no insulation. The inside showed surfaces at the indoor ambiant temp with NatCoat and a slight rise with HyTech/Kilz.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Mikie, does national coating make a product for interior use, ceilings and inside of the exterior walls, or does it matter interior vs exterior application? Thanks!


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

They have seperate, interior & exterior.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Thanks again,mikey. We have an exterior stucco w/ an acrylic color coat tha hasn't been put on yet. Im told that the additives can be used in the acrylic color coat as well. I was thinking of the inside and doing the walls and ceilings. We already have radiant barrier for heat retention on the walls put on before the exterior wall sheathing and on the ceiling put up before sheet rock. This method is somewhat contoversial so i thought the additives interior might be extra insurance.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Homeprotex...
"As far as the comments from texasrbs...
Much of what he is trying to refer to has to do with radiant barrier coatings. This is a completely different type of product.
The comments made are quite incorrect. Emissivity means nothing. It's a very complicated subject...and since we are not talking about radiant barrier coatings in this thread I'll not bore anyone with the details.
The simple truth is that white paint has an emissivity of .9. Black paint has an emissivity of .9.
Which one would you rather paint with?"

You are correct....this is a completely different type of coating.

It bothers me greatly when a company like Hy-Tech is spending a LOT of advertising money on advertising their Low E coating when it is not a low e coating. As PROVEN by independent testing!!!
http://www.hytechsales.com/prod85.html
RIGHT AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE....DIFFERENT TYPE OF COATING???
Search google for radiant barrier paint, you will see this companies ad stating "low e coating"
That sure looks like this company is outright lying to it potential customers to me!

All I am asking for is PROOF. It's that simple! Can ANYONE give me ANY proof. I can give you proof the coatings I install everyday for people works. Even if it isn't a Low E coating or suppose to work like a radiant barrier does, can you show me proof it does what you say? So far the answer has been no!

Homeprotex....
"Another point that should be noted when considering these comments is that texasrbs is not an impartial open minded member of the forum.
He is a former distributor for Hy-Tech. He paid a licensing fee for the rights to a territory after a great deal of research and even visited their facility.
He was let go by the company due to questionable business practices.
Just something that readers of this thread should be aware of."

Again, you are correct, we paid for territory. Unfortunately, our agreement was not honored. We no longer distribute for Hy-Tech Thermal Solutions because of this and the fact that I have yet to receive any actual proof from the company like was originally promised. If anyone would like to know more, please email me, this forum is not the proper place to argue the details. I will be open minded as I have always been and can only hope to always be. I absolutely understand that I am not the end all authority on this subject. Please help me to understand your points by showing me something proving that these ceramic technologies work like the manufacturers say they do.

After doing a lot of research into companies selling ceramic paint and powders, I have found that every single one claims great results with no proof. Only "NASA" marketing that I can pay for and testimonials.

Offer: great savings and heat transfer reduction.
Proof: ???

Do not accept customer testimonials and marketing as a substitute for proof.

Again, Does anyone have proof?

Heat savings ceramics have been highlighted in NASA Spinoff Magazines.

True Low E coatings have their own classification by the department of Energy. One of these, you can submit your own article and have it published. The other one requires actual proof.

Enough for now...Thanks for reading and making up your own mind.

Chris - Chris.Gerstner@gmail.com


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Chris writes:
" this forum is not the proper place to argue the details. "

Good point. Then why do you go on to not only do that, but then invite people to email you directly? Is it possible that it's much easier to lie and slander when no one else is watching?

The thread is about ceramics. You jump in and want to talk about radiant barrier aluminum coatings. That is what I meant by 'different type'.

You talk a lot about "proof". This test you refer to sure seems to mean a lot to you. So why don't you answer some questions? Let's see what value your "proof" has.

The test for emissivity, are the results affected by things like the gloss, texture, and color of the surface?
If emissivity means so much, why does both black and white paint have the same number (.9)?
Has a real world study of radiant barrier coatings ever been performed?
What is the ASTM study for reflectivity of heat?

You also talk about things being "honored".
Here's what I KNOW.
I found the website and contacted Hy-Tech for more information. I was told that there was a distributor, not in my area, but close. They sent me to you and I'm not even in the territory you "bought".
I met you at your makeshift "office" and shook your hand. You did not tell me about Hy-Tech products. You told me you had switched and were just doing a radiant barrier spray. No ceramics, no other options, just a chemical based spray. I called Hy-Tech after our meeting and told them. Even talked to the owner, and he had no idea you were doing things like that when they sent you potential business.

I bought their product (ceramics) direct. Spent my money and put it on my home. 114 whole dollars for a test. Not much to lose in case it was nothing. It worked really well. I put 45 dollars back in my pocket the next month from lower bills. Bought more. Painted my parent's house. More great results.
What have you painted with ceramics? Your house? Do you have one? Anyone's house?

You showed me what you're made of when we met. The people you want to email you don't have that option.

You might also want to tell them that your extensive background in coating and ceramics is based on being the "cable guy". Isn't that where you came from, not that long ago?

Anyone with a brain will see you for what you are.
All the others will email you.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

homeprotex, you said:
"The owner of Hy-Tech was kind enough to share the wealth that you generated....so if your ears are burning around 8p.m. Central...it's because the wife and I will be toasting you with a good red wine over a great Angus steak."

Ahem...if you want to be that way about it, *I'm* the person who started the thread and provided the first link to the site; if you say that traffic was driven to the site, and you got remunerated for it, I say that's a bit sleazy on your part. I see you very differently now. I also see the owner of Hy-Tech differently, now, too, unfortunately. Says nothing good about either of you.

(quote from my second post on this thread that *I* started:) "Here's one I found...WOW re the claims/testimonials...anyone here have any experience with this?

Here is a link that might be useful: hytech additives/paint"

I don't want money for having linked to the site, but your motives have suddenly become extremely clear. Promotion/advertising is not allowed on this site for a good reason. I wish now I'd never started the thread.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

A good forum exchange of unpleasantries is always a good thing. Gives you somewhere to go to when you're boored.

I caught that too,, the wow,, the dinner with hytech,,, laughing at everybody. Speaks poorly of posters in general. Hard to put much faith the words from someone like that. Good for some chuckles ;)

Think we all know, hytech,, has too many pages with too much hype,,, too many web names and search submissions which makes many have more than a slight loss of trust in the company,,the products, and their prices.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Reading comprehension seems to be extremely difficult for some people.

Let's take this slowly so you can follow along...

Fly made a posting. Asked if anyone had used a product. Nothing out of the ordinary there...

The FIRST reply was from someone who had not read the website, knows nothing about the product, and has never used it. You...fly...even responded with something about R value. This means that you did not read much of the site and never even saw the FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS. R value is NUMBER ONE!

I posted for one reason. I have used the product (that's what you asked for, right?)

I found a website last year. Products sounded interesting, but too good to be true.
I read the site. Followed the links. Contacted NASA about the Spinoff article.
In short...I did my homework. Just like I do when I buy *anything*.
I bought product. Spent a whole $114. Not much to gamble, I figured.
I painted my house. Two coats...just like they tell you to.
My electric bill dropped by $45. Simple enough.
I bought some more. Another $114. Painted my parent's house.
The next month...their bill went down too.
Their neighbor was curious but skeptical. When he saw their two bills (before and after) he bought some and painted. His bill went down as well.
Seemed like it was working to me.

I am a contractor will 4 crews and I work in several states. I am always researching products and anything related to the building / renovation industry. I am a member of several trade organizations and regularly attend trade shows around the country. It's my business.

So I liked the product so much I wanted to include it in my offerings to customers. Not really a big deal. I sell lots of products. Can't build or renovate without products, right? I purchase every couple of months...just like I do with LOTS of products.

Here's the simple part...so read slowly..

The person who continues to post with an amazing amount of negativity about something he knows nothing about and has never used...has actually driven people to ask about the products. Both to me and the company. They mention his name and quote his posts. Why negativity motivates people is beyond me...but it does.
People have read the website, called the company, ordered, and experienced lower bills. Simple facts.

So I call the company to place another regular order (I buy in pallet quantities because product is cheaper).
The owner (who is well aware of this thread) tells me he'll ship this order for free. His way of saying thanks for continuing to respond and try to educate someone who has not used the product...and has no idea what they are talking about. It was said in a joking manner...and we laughed about it.
I bought 30 thousand dollars of Hy-Tech product in the last year...and he sends me a shipment with no shipping cost.

Please...PLEASE...Fly....
Tell me how that's wrong! How is that "sleazy"?
ANSWER THAT QUESTION!

My motives are to run a very successful business, offer quality service and products to my customers, and provide a good living to the families of the 32 people who work for me.

You asked if anyone has used the product because you saw it in a national publication. It was in there because a nationally recognized home improvement expert has used it. They interviewed her and asked for energy saving tips. She mentioned it.
You asked...I've used it...I answered.

I sell Pella windows, Armstrong flooring, and CertainTeed shingles as well. I guess I shouldn't respond to any threads about them either...according to your "logic".

And mikie...
You must be "boored" a lot. Walking around your house at 2am with a thermometer...
You complain because a company has "too many pages" on their website? Because they have more than one site?
I see Home Depot ads on more than one TV station...I guess I should have "more than a slight loss of trust" in them too.
It's called advertising....genius.
But of course YOU'RE the one who should decide how that should be done. How many business have you run? How many people do you provide a living for?

You don't even know what you painted your own house with. First you said ceramics (because that's what the company said)...then you said glass (because I corrected you).
I researched Nationwide as well. I know the guys there. I've toured the plant. Have you?
I know what's on *your* house....you don't.
You are the proud owner of plain white paint.

You should flip-flop back to your corner and just watch the show.


 o
RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

heh
you havent a clue
pat yourself on the back


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Hello all,

It has been interesting reading the posts. Can anyone tell me if this ceramic powder paint additive is effective for sound reduction? I was thinking of painting it on a concrete ceiling which acts as the floor of the apartment above to block footsteps and furniture scraping across the floor. Thanks.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Wow! What a thread!

I'm a homeowner, doing a big renovation and as things are winding up, I'm finally thinking about paint. I'm in a 50+ year old house that never had any insulation until I put it in.

I'm seriously thinking about using the Hy-Tech products. Compared to the total project cost, it's immaterial and if it doesn't work, it won't be doing any harm.

My question is about the aluminum radiant barrier. Wouldn't that block wireless internet and cellphone signals?

Does anybody have any experience with that?

One more item re/the debate last fall:

If I were a Hy-Tech guy, I'd use this thread to identify where people are conused or misled, or just have questions and then provide clear answers via the Hy-Tech website. An evening's worth of work might really pay off. Just think of the people who have similar questions that aren't posting here.

-JR


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Buy some of the HyTech magic beads and put them in the NatCoat primer. Or just have NatCoat add extra recycled glass(same stuff your oven window is made out of).


 o
RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

@ JRinPDX

Re: the aluminum barrier paint
I've got it in my attic and some interior rooms as a base coat. There haven't been any problems with wireless internet, cordless or cell phone reception. I also contacted the company and was told they have never heard of this being a problem in any application.

Re: information on a website
I mentioned that to my contact at the company.
It's pretty much impossible to make any website that will make every single person happy. The frustrating thing (according to a web developer) is even when the information is there, some people refuse to look. When questions come up that are clearly listed in the FAQ it's obvious.

People can always post here or start a new thread if they want to. They would just have to put up with some incorrect and uninformed opinions. That is the nature of the internet age we live in.
Fortunately there is a percentage of people who, although they don't jump into the posting fray, will send email either to me (because I've offered) or the company directly.

Good luck with your renovation!!


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

What this Florida company is still in business?
I actually TRIED the HyTech 'insulative' paint last year
and ... it does not work!
Ordinary white paint works much better, my flat roof is now
much cooler than with Hy Tech (I'm glad i did a small 'test
area' with HyTech first, so my roof is not completely soiled)
I still remember the warm touch underneath the Hy Tech area
As much as i want to greenify my house and believe in the
idea of ceramic additives thermal insulation, HyTech roof guard
does not work and seems to be a BIG SCAM
Just look at these dozen same websites with all the colors
and NASA logos everywhere, i should have been suspicious
right there


 o
RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

does it still work under subsequent layers of paint?


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

I want to try this concept myself, just on the personal experiences detailed above. Do I have this correct:

Add the ceramic beads to my paint of choice and apply two coats to

A. The interior walls and ceilings on the north side of the house and the upper rooms (converted attic of a cape)
B. The exterior walls of the south side of the house.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Hi,
Absolutely yes, you understand completely correctly.
For better results, you can use the radiant barrier coating (the one with aluminum, #85) first. It provides the radiant barrier properties of aluminum with another layer of ceramics.
You can paint just the areas you mentioned, but obviously you will get the best results possible if you paint more areas.

Best of luck with your painting project!!


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

This crap is still around?

Unbelievable.

You should market power factor correctors as long as you are selling this stuff.


 o
RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Installing real insulation in an existing house is tough. That is, actual between-the-wall fiberglass insulation. Not many options exist for you.

If you're tearing out plaster or drywall--well, go ahead. Walls are open, so it's just as easy as installing it in a new construction building. Roll it out, cut it, staple it, and there you have it. If you're not opening walls, blown-in insulation is a distant second. This entails opening holes in your exterior and pumping in with a blower. But even the experts can't ensure 100% fill. Wall interiors have all sorts of funny things inside that are difficult to anticipate: firestops, criss-crossing wires, oversized plaster "keys" that invade the space. So how about insulating paint?

Nansulate, Insuladd, and Other Insulating Paints
There are several types of insulating paints, the prominent of which are Nansulate, Insuladd, Hy-Tech, and others. The way they work is that you either apply the insulating (or thermal) paint to the interior walls or you mix an additive into your existing paint. Multiple coats are recommended. The first and most important point to note is that any kind of paint coverage will add insulating properties to your house--insulating or thermal paint just takes it beyond. Far beyond.

Insulating Paint's Properties

Hy-Tech says that its ceramic-based paint creates a tight, thin vacuum layer that deters the passage of heat or cold. Microscopic ceramic beads no bigger than a grain of flour form this vacuum surface. As you may now, vacuums hinder thermal properties. That's why double-paned windows often have a vacuum layer between the panes, or a gas such as argon or krypton.

Insulating Paint: Does It Work?

I always get suspicious when a product claims that it was "developed by NASA." But after closer inspection, it does appear that insulating paint additive really was developed by NASA's Ames Research Center. So the product exists and it does work. Exacty how well it works is debatable. Different manufacturers claim different results. Hy-Tech says that since "R" values can only be measured on materials one-inch thick or greater, paint cannot legitimately be compared. They say that in their own tests, comparing their additive with one-inch thick insulation, both hindered heat transfer by 35%. Insulating paint will not replace a good thick layer of R-19 fiberglass between your walls. But if you have no other choice--and if you have a fat wallet, because thermal paint and additives are expensive--you may want to try it.

Here is a link that might be useful: About.com


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

I've read enough. Brick is using a ton of common sense.
The argument is won when the other side resorts to insults.
Snake oil salesmen are smarter than ever, but its still snake oil.
I have yet to hear from an "independent lab", funded by us taxpayers.
Labs paid for by the business cannot be trusted.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

If you add an additive to any paint, you just voided the warranty.

There are a whole lot of underperforming coatings out there but the EPA has recently changed the requirements for them to earn the Energy Star as a 'Roof Coating'. No more self-certifications as of January 1st, 2011. Third party certifications only.

Heat energy travels by three modes; Conduction, Convection and Radiation. Radiant heat travels towards cold in every direction, including straight down.

Our ceramic coating is also used as an interior and exterior paint. It is a heat barrier against all three forms of heat transfer nd it is extremely effective and versatile. It applies and looks exactly like paint.

Where many companies offer huge claims and zero proof, we have 25-years worth of statements, energy calculations and pictures.

We are the real deal.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cerama-Tech of Texas


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Scientific American

What Are the Benefits of "Insulating" Paint?

Do these products actually save energy or do more harm to the environment?

: July 15, 2009 : 9

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Insulating paints should merely be the icing on the cake of an otherwise well-conceived plan to cut heating and cooling costs, and not be used in place of traditional bulk insulation. Image: Getty Images

Dear EarthTalk: Do insulating paints actually insulate and save energy? If they do, are they environmentally friendly to use?
-- Bob Dibrindisi, Easthampton, MA

Paint additives that claim insulating qualities have been marketed since the late 1990s, but energy research organizations have not confirmed their insulating value. For its part, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) does not recommend using paints or coatings in place of traditional bulk insulation. "We haven�t seen any independent studies that can verify their insulating qualities," the agency reports. The federal government does rate roofing paint for its energy efficiency, but such findings only take into account a substance�s ability to reflect heat off the roof�not its insulating properties per se�to keep the building cooler.

According to the Department of Energy�s Oak Ridge National Laboratory, the use of so-called insulated paints is in most cases "difficult to justify on the basis of savings in energy costs alone." Meanwhile, the non-profit EnergyIdeas Clearinghouse, a partnership between Washington State University and the nonprofit Northwest Energy Efficiency Alliance, found that under ideal circumstances insulating paints can achieve a "reduction in heat gain" of around 20 percent on freshly-painted sun-exposed walls, but notes that such walls will only face direct sunlight for a limited part of even the clearest summer day. Also, the clearinghouse reports that "heat gain reductions�are significant only for sun-bathed surfaces" and that the "reflectivity of the painted surface generally declines considerably with time."

Alex Wilson of the website BuildingGreen.com is not a fan of insulating paints: "To say that there is a lot of hype about insulating paints�is an understatement," he tells the website Treehugger.com. "The Internet is rife with claims of paints that dramatically reduce heat transfer�usually based on some technological magic spun off from NASA. While these products may have some relevance in the extreme conditions of outer space, manufacturers of paints containing [insulating additives] are making claims that defy the laws of physics�when they claim they can save significant energy in buildings."

Nevertheless, for certain applications, especially in concert with traditional forms of insulation underneath, insulating paint can help reduce energy expenditures and air conditioning bills accordingly. For those who want to forge ahead with insulating paint despite the limited benefits, some of the leading brands to look for include Insuladd, Hy-Tech, Therma-Guard and Eagle Coatings� SuperTherm.

Adding insulating paint should merely be the icing on the cake of an otherwise well-conceived plan to cut heating and cooling costs. Installing a traditional form of insulation would be the first defense. A reflective, radiant barrier on the roof structure in the attic also could offer significant help, according to the Florida Solar Energy Center. Thermal-pane windows and energy-conscious practices will contribute to the effort. Finally, consider trees and other landscape shading, which the U.S. Department of Energy recommends as an effective way of passively cooling your home. For more ideas, visit the "do-it-yourself energy audit tool" on the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory�s Home Energy Saver website.

CONTACTS: U.S. EPA, www.epa.gov; EnergyIdeas Clearinghouse, www.energyideas.org; Insuladd, www.insuladd.com, Hy-Tech, www.hytechsales.com; Eagle Coatings, www.eaglecoatings.net; Therma-Guard, www.befreetech.com/thermaguard.htm; Home Energy Saver, www.hes.lbl.gov.

EarthTalk is produced by E/The Environmental Magazine. SEND YOUR ENVIRONMENTAL QUESTIONS TO: EarthTalk, P.O. Box 5098, Westport, CT 06881; earthtalk@emagazine.com. Read past columns at: www.emagazine.com/earthtalk/archives.php. EarthTalk is now a book! Details and order information at: www.emagazine.com/earthtalkbook.


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RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Okay, you might find plenty of fault in my testing methods but here's what I did. Also please forgive typos as I'm using a voice-recognition software because as I have very little time today to do this, and the software has not been fully trained yet and makes mistakes,... and I will probably not be going back over this to do any corrections.

I wanted to test these products as it certainly would be a very simple way of saving energy in the apartments that I own. Actually I really wanted them to work. I have used a number of products many of them that have been mentioned here.

My rudimentary testing consisted of using aluminum soda cans of the same brand. On each product I coated the outside of the aluminum cans with two coats of the product on one can and 10 coats of the same product on the other. I coated them completely including the bottom and the tops.

I inserted electronic probes on the inside 3 inches deep that would suspend same at the same level in each can. These probes are pretty sensitive and usually register on the same 10th of a degree if left into a sealed box when reopened.

I used Cerama Tech, Insulaid , Hy Tech, Super Therm, and Nano Tech. Two cans each, coated with the 2 and 10 coats. I also had one can coated with plain flat white paint and another with gloss white paint.

In the summer I would have the cans indoors in relatively cool air conditioning until they registered the same temperatures. A few times I had them in freezers. I would then bring them outside and put them in the sun. Sometime I would also do the same and bring them outside and leave them in the shade. I also compared them to cans painted in flat white, and gloss white.

There was virtually no difference in the rate of heat gain and any of the products and no heat gain difference in the flat white can. There was a slight slowing down of heat gain in the white gloss paint which did a tiny bit better than any of the so-called insulative paints.

I repeated the same test although I couldn't be as certain with the paint films by repeating a swirling around paint several times on the inside of the can and then letting it dry with the help of a blow dryer but as far as I could tell by trying to look into the cans with a small light,.. they looked well coated.I did this several times and feel that they were well coated with a fairly thick layer

In the winter I did virtually the same thing taking them out from a hot room to the outside which was below freezing. They lost heat at all the same rate including the gloss paint. By the way all the cans were very well sealed so no air could get in or out.

I was told by one manufacturer that "Oh well That's why it didn't perform well it was probably because you had too little air volume" however I don't see how that would make any difference.

And more of a real world test I did the same with several identical apartments the same wall space facing outward and both having electric heat. Both on the same floor with the same window space and orientation. It happened to be the both of these apartments were vacant the months of January and February.I set the electric heat temperature at 70 degrees. I used two coats of Super Therm and two coats of Cerama Tech (4 all together) on the insides of the outside facing walls in one apartment. There was no appreciable door openings in either apartment during that month.

Electric heat maybe expensive but it's 100% efficient when it gets to your house. it's much more accurate for measuring heat loss than oil or gas.

The month of January the electrical usage in kilowatt hours was virtually identical in both apartments. In February after one of the apartments were coated with the so called insulative paints applied, the electrical usage was again identical in both apartments.

You can argue how unscientific and crude my methods are but I don't think I want to waste anymore time trying to make insulative paints work.

This seals it for me.


 o
RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Oh BTW I have use of a 22,000 dollar Infrared camera and have had training on how to use it. Accurately shows heat loss or gain and I see no difference in the two apartment units with it.


 o
RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

Has anyone ever used the Insuladd insulating paint additive brand of paint additive?


 o
RE: ceramic powder paint additive--really insulating?

I just painted a shipping container using white paint with Insuladd added to it. It made quite a difference. Don't know how much of a difference it would have made with the white paint alone, (it was brown before), but before painting it it was like an oven inside when the sun was out. When the sun is out now It's still a little warmer than the air outside but nothing like it was before. It think this is a pretty good test because the container is sealed with only two very small air vents, whereas in a house or appartment you are probably not going to get 100% coverage and there might be a great deal of air leaks.


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