mybrowneyedgirls,
so I am guessing you have some beautiful brown eyed little girls and that would be two.
ok- really I'm not trying to be funny, cute or indifferent, but I believe you have a no brainer here. I think you really have already answered your questions.

Take it from me, I can definitely say and will admit to working carelessly with some products in the past. Not respecting what they can do in terms of safety and toxins.
Doing things I would never dream of doing now. I just shake my head at some of the crazy things I have done in years past. I always request a msds report on any product I buy (or look it up) and I respect some products with the upmost care. Even though I still use products , I am much more careful and respect what they can do.

Even if a product is labeled as "low vocs" or no VOC's, doesn't mean it is safe in some toxins that still exist in the product. That's why a MSDS should still be obtained. Just be careful and choose a product you could feel comfortable with after reading or checking the specs and follow the safety guidelines. Just be cautious.

Well, I know that the brushing putty is pretty harsh, but the Eco paint I think should be okay in terms of vocs. According to the FPE website, vocs are 90 grams per liter. I'm not really sure how this compares to other paints, but I know that I won't find one that is acceptable for painting cabinets that is much lower (right?) I think my main concern now is the yellowing of the paint. And if I do use the brushing putting, and cover it with on oil-based primer like FPE says to, and then 2 coats of Eco, will the 2 coats of Eco "seal" the vocs of the brushing putty and oil-based primer in? So, my 2 concerns now are brushing putty and primer vocs, and yellowing of Eco paint...

Hi mybrowneyedgirls...

I responded to your email. My experience with FPE has been the exact opposite of everyhing that Emmit told you. I know he's the expert but there it is. No yellowing of my kitchen cabinets whatsoever, and it's been 3 1/2 years. No yellowing of the other colors I used elsewhere either. And I could barely smell the ECO when I used it. I realize VOCs are not always directly correlated to smell. Sorry Emmit, but I just don't get it. The website is pretty clear about the VOCs. See below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Info on ECO

That's really strange because when I spoke with Emmett on the phone a few months ago about painting cabinetry and trim and we talked about Eco vs. Hollandlac (or whatever it's called) he said that by going with Eco I wouldn't have the yellowing issues I would have with Hollandlac. I also didn't notice a heavy VOC smell when I used the Eco.

Yeah, not sure what to make of the conversation now. Pirula, I read the Eco info you linked, and reading that was what had initially made me want to use Eco (low voc's, low odor). I think they mean low vocs compared to traditional oil paint. I didn't realize that Eco is still technically oil paint until I spoke with Emmett. He was so nice to talk to me for 45 minutes and answered every question I had (and then some) in great detail. I was really surprised that he said white Eco will yellow, even noticeably within 6 months, but he said that is because it is a modified oil paint. I will still probably use it, mainly for it's durability and at least the voc's will be lower than with regular old oil paint. I'm just really disappointed to know that it is going to yellow ([possibly). Pirula, I think the difference must be that your cabinets are painted cream, which already has some yellow in it??? I don't know. Wish me luck.

Could be the factor of color. Or, could be something has changed in the formula very recently and since Pirula used it 3.5 years ago. I don't know, but that would be a question I would pose to Emmett.

If this is all true, then there is really no logic to calling this line of paint 'Eco' anymore is there?

Re: the Brushing Putty - I just used this stuff on my bathroom vanity and it is STRONG! So much so that I'm seriously thinking of not using it for my kitchen cabinets. You have to use oil primer over it too so it's like a double whammy. It does help fill in the grain, but I'm not sure it makes enough of a difference that I want to subject myself and my kids to it again.

I think the link I posted is pretty clear that it's low VOC period. The easiest way to compare is to look up the VOCs of any other paint you are considering. It clearly states that it is (in addition to 90% less voc's than conventional oil) eco friendly and low VOC. Now, whether that is misleading or not, I don't know. I just do know, that the smell factor anyway, was way lower with this paint than with C2 or with Pratt & Lambert or with Benjamin Moore, in my experience. The only paint I used that had less odor, was Farrow & Ball, water based. You can look up the VOC content of paints online.

Yes, my cabinets are cream, but a very light cream. If they had yellowed MORE, trust me, I'd notice it. And they have not. If you are really concerned about your pure white yellowing (I would be) then by all means skip the FPE ECO and go with Farrow & Ball water based eggshell. Strong White (I think) if you want uber pure white, or Pointing, if you want a really soft, exquisite, warm white. Use the water based eggshell and you will have zero yellowing, excellent durability, and beautiful white cabinets that won't yellow.

If this is all true, then there is really no logic to calling this line of paint 'Eco' anymore is there?

Maybe "eco" is like "enamel". It's meaning is ambiguous in the grand scheme.

FPE sent me a looong explanation about how there are VOCs and then there are VOCs. Some are more damaging than others when reacting with the environment. Odors that an individual perceives are not always indicators, and percentages aren't either. I would not ask Emmett about the VOC factors; I would ask one of the technical people. As for yellowing, Emmett should be the one. Pirula has such a great eye that the discrepancy is indeed puzzling, so I'd question Emmett further about recent re-reformulations and whether whitest whites differ from creamier ones with respect to yellowing over time. Elsewhere, a pro on this forum once said that oil-based paint will yellow. Period. Sorry, I cannot recall who that was.

Here is a link that might be useful: Lahey

Thank you kitchendetective.

I think I just remembered something. Doesn't oil paint only yellow if there is insufficient sunlight? Did I not read that somewhere? Like for example, inside of closets? Or my entire house before we busted the exterior walls open with windows 10 times the size of the original ones? Might be another good thing to ask Emmett, if you're going to talk to him again. Because if it's true, and you have lots of natural light in the kitchen, yellowing may not even be a consideration then.

Yeah, all oil based paints will yellow to some degree because of the solvents in them. Without sunlight, the rate at which they will yellow will be increased signficantly. With sunlight, it will still yellow, just not as bad or as fast. The only reason creams would seem to yellow less is because the actual hue of the color is similar to the color of the yellowing effect. This is also why blacks, browns, etc are immune to the yellowing problem...you just don't see it. I imagine more solvents in the paint mean more yellowing and since a paint is a hybrid, I would guess that it would yellow less than a full blown alkyd paint...could be wrong there, but it seems logical.

On my ECO-Brilliant samples at work, they haven't changed A BIT in 6 months.
Our store has natural light only from the North, & here in Fargo, it's dark A LOT!

I've got the ECO sample next to my ACE & Insl-X Cab-coat boards. The ECO-piece is still a beautiful, glossy, bright White. It's easily the "Whitest" of the 3...

Faron

Just a question. What are in ingredients of ECO? Does ACE or BM or SW make any paints with the same contents? Most paint companies make different lines of paint that are different qualities. How do the ingredients compare in their top of the line paints to FPE? Most of the paint I use is Delux (used to be Sinclair). Most of the painting I do is with a spray gun but I sometimes use a brush. If I want a real smooth under surface they put out a waterbased primer. I brush on a coat and then when it dries I sand it down. It sands real easy. To get the surface I want I might apply two, three or even four coats, sanding between each coat with 220 to 320 paper. If I have big dents I need to fill I use either Bondo or Rock Hard Water Putty. Anyway, get the ingredients off the can. Don't let them just give you some sales pitch.

The quality of the paint goes up when you add more titanium dioxide and so does the price. I don't know what the deal is with FPE in terms of what is inside it, but I do think that most manufacturers of paint know how to make great paint...they just simply choose not to because they know that making great paint means raising their costs so high, nobody will buy it. This is why FPE costs more than double the amount of other premium brands.

Titanim dioxide. Waterbased vs oil based finish. Titanium dioxide is what makes white paint white. You can add titanium dioxide to the base up to a point. After you reach that point, the paint takes on the properties of titanium dioxide and ruins the paint. Almost all factory finishes are now waterborne; cars, furniture, ect...The main difference is the carrier. FPE waterborne paint is made with alkyd urethane base. So are some other brands that are equivalent. Another good base is acrylic urethane or acrylic copolymer. As far as the VOC is concerned, use a fan but waterborne is much lower than oil based.

"Titanium dioxide. Waterbased vs oil based finish. Titanium dioxide is what makes white paint white. You can add titanium dioxide to the base up to a point. After you reach that point, the paint takes on the properties of titanium dioxide and ruins the paint. Almost all factory finishes are now waterborne; cars, furniture, ect...The main difference is the carrier. FPE waterborne paint is made with alkyd urethane base. So are some other brands that are equivalent. Another good base is acrylic urethane or acrylic copolymer. As far as the VOC is concerned, use a fan but waterborne is much lower than oil based."

Yikes. Talk about confusing.

All alkyds will indeed yellow. The type of oil used in the alkyd (safflower, corn, tung, etc) plays a part along with the type of solvent used. Both the presence ammonia (think bathroom) and/or absence of light will accelerate yellowing while bright light can reverse it (to a certain extent). Most alkyds do indeed dry harder than latexes but then again, they are not as scrubbable. The new water dispersible alkyds like Eco do offer a nice compromise between latex and oil but if yellowing is a concern because you will be painting cabinets white next to another white object (think appliance or tile), then a premium latex would indeed be your best choice.

BTW, like most things, there is a rule of diminishing returns with TiO2. Up to a certain level, you do indeed get incremental hide but after a certain level, you are just wasting money. What this means is that FPE doesn't cost twice as much as other because it has twice as much TiO2 as other premium brands (never mind that its volume solids would need to be in the 70% range) - you need to look elsewhere to solve that puzzle. Keep in mind it's only the white/light base that has a high TiO2 load in any paint - TiO2 is pulled out of the other bases in order to hit the deeper colors.

I love how the internet makes us all paint chemists. I said I do not know what is in the paint, but that adding titanium dioxide increases the cost and quality of the paint. I certainly did not mean to imply that this was the only thing added. We don't know what the other exact ingredients are. Painters don't know and paint reps don't know either. For all we know, FPE could be selling us Walmart paint in a FPE can.

As far as yellowing, I never had that issue. Then again I don't usually use pure white. I have used FPE paints, oil based and water based, but it takes me about 1hr freeway driving to get to that paint store. I liked their waterbased and ICI DULUX is about 10min away so I took a can of FPE to them and asked if they had any paint similar. The salesman brought out a can and pointed to the contains section. Alkyd. I'd seen that before on cans of oil based paints. FPE; alkyd urethane. ICI; alkyd urethane. Urethane; I'd used that before as an oil based and as a waterbased finish. Tough stuff. I took the ICI home, used it to restore the legs and splats on some chairs I was working on. The ICI seemed to work just like FPE so I bought some more and painted the trim of my house and gates white. I still use it when I need to paint furniture. The trick I used was I read the label. If one wants to, you can call a paint mfg. and ask to talk to the chemists. They will talk to you.

Well...here goes...!

There are MANY grades of TI02.
* Some are a little whiter than others,
* The "Grind"...Some grades are ground EXTREMELY FINE, like FPE's. Others are indeed much coarser.
* Some grades are "denser" than cheaper grades.
* The "dispersants" TI02 is carried in vary widely too.
* The "Binder" that TI02 resides in has a big factor in a films quality, gloss, & toughness as well.

There are MANY other ingredients in paint obviously!
>>> Their prices/quality vary wiiiidely.

A geeky site I sometimes study is Specialchem4coatings.com

Faron

I surrender.

For all we know, FPE could be selling us Walmart paint in a FPE can.

LOL!

But those FPE cans really are special -- nothing can compare. ;-D

Farrow & Ball water based eggshell. Strong White (I think) if you want uber pure white, or Pointing,

yikes, no. F&B Strong White is a tinted white - a sort of grey-green. F&B "All White" is the pure white.

Pointing is a soft creamy- warm white (and very nice). Wimborne White is sort of warm-white in between the two.

Oh good. Thanks for clarifying mindstorm. Didn't have my fandex around. I think Pointing is the prettiest white ever.

I agree about the comments of the brushing putty. When I used it outside on the doors it was fine, when I moved to the vanity inside it was horrible. In spite of adequate ventilation I had the most horrible headache. I don't think I will be using this anymore.

Vonda