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Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

Posted by no-green-thumb (My Page) on
Tue, Feb 9, 10 at 10:26

About five or so years ago, I removed wallpaper in my foyer. I skimmed over the bad areas, primed with Kilz, then painted two coats of a very dark paint in BM Regal Matte. The walls chalked every time they were rubbed. I have since painted over all of that mess with a lighter color and it is fine. I kept thinking (and think that I read) that paints made with deep bases can do this.
I am now faced with a similar situation in another room. My decorator has picked out a paint color that it a little darker than I typically choose. I called my paint store to see what base this color uses, and while it is not a deep, dark color, it does use the deep base #3 of the four bases BM has. I explained my concerns and he said that he has not heard of these chalking problems - that there was probably something wrong with the wall prep.
I had painted the walls just about 4 months ago, a lighter BM beige. He suggested washing the walls (typically I admit I don't do this), then one coat of BM primer, one coat of paint.
Hoping to be reassured by the pros here that this is not a normal situation with Regal Matte Base #3 - and that I should be okay. Thank you so much for your help.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

BM regal matte has now been revamped to their new acrylic formulation. This should not happen now, but I can tell you this has occurred with paints of pigment rub offs, especially with organic pigments, reds, browns, blacks. Chalking, burnish issues should not happen now with the newer reformulated mattes.


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

Decorativewalls,
Thank you so much for the shot of confidence!! The color I used in the foyer was a deep, rusty red. It was a real mess.
Since I just painted this room, I am not thrilled to be doing it again so soon, but need to because of new furniture purchases. It is quite a large room as well.
The color is New Chestnut AC-6, which doesn't even seem that dark to me.
I will wash the walls, use primer - and I am thinking maybe just one coat of paint. We'll see what happens.


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

Ooooh, I like New Chestnut. If your walls are not that old, gee-whiz washing them is not necessary. Just make sure to take an extension pole of a rag attached to clear any cob webs, etc.
Have your primer tinted to match your New Chestnut. Pretty pretty color.


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint --- Deep Base

Now you have me even more excited!! I frequent the decorating forum as I am so challenged - and even worse with paint. I just can never get it right. When I went to the furniture store, I asked if they had a designer. So far, she seems pretty wonderful. She wants to know what I like - doesn't try to ram me with what she likes. Anyway, the New Chestnut does seem dark to me --- but as I told her, I am going to go with it. I have yet to pick out a paint color that I liked! I have always had someone else's help. I just cannot "picture" the whole thing done. I just painted them two coats of Regal Matte in Shaker Beige about 3 or 4 months ago -- and that color was picked out by a guru at a paint store to be kind of a "latte" color for me. ---- looks very cold and yellow on my walls. New Chestnut will be a big, big change!! Thanks for the encouragement!


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

I don't like the Regal Matte....never have. I don't really know that I have had chalking problems, but I do know that it's very hard to apply that paint without it flashing. It just doesn't seem like a true washable to me. Generally, if you are having chalking problems with a particular color, that should mean that you should step up the sheen level to eggshell, but a washable flat is not supposed to chalk or burnish. I also do not buy that the chalking can come from poor prep or not washing your walls. Paint store clerks use that reasoning too often. I agree people are washing their walls when most times it is not necessary. Honestly, I think Regal Matte is the issue....I stay away from that product, especially with dark colors. If you can afford it, switch to the Aura Matte...I bet that will solve all your problems.


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

For real, PG? I didn't know you didn't care for Regal Matte. I really like the matte interior - it's a good choice at that price point for exterior too. Deep colors, tho, and I agree Aura is the better choice just all the way around.

If you have time, would love to know why Regal Matte is not on your favorites list.


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

But, Paintguy, I have read that the Aura paint can be very hard to apply and people have had some real issues with it.
I can well afford the Aura - but after reading the application issues, I am very wary of it. I am even surprised that the color I have chosen uses a deep base. It is not that deep of a color.


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

You are right green thumb....I forget about the application issues because it is easy to apply for me. At this point, I don't notice much of a difference between applying the Aura and applying the Regal line. Also, what you are painting over is an important factor. If you are painting square walls where you cut in the perimeter, let it dry and then roll out the field, that's easy. But if you are painting a slick surface with Aura that may have a lot of cutting in involved, that may be more difficult (like cabinets for example). I guess I would suggest you get a quart of Aura and try it out. The learning curve may not be that big or horror stories you have heard may not be that true for you as every painter is different.

I have problems with the Regal Matte mainly I suppose for the durability concerns. It's not really washable. I have a hard time recommending it to customers because when I walk out the door I worry. Also, the differential between cut and roll always shows a little bit. I don't really want to say it is hatbanding, because it may not be that extreme, but it is something I notice particularly in high light areas like when sunlight coming in from a window casts light down the entire wall in a high foyer or something similar. Also, the lap marks show in every color. It may not be so extreme so that anyone but me notices, but I want a flat wall with even sheen. I can get that with Aura, but not with Regal Matte. I have tried adding extender, using a bigger nap sleeve and I have tried cutting and rolling while the cut-ins are still wet and these issues still remain. It's just how this paint is. I also do the burnish test sometimes when the walls are dry. This is a test I invented by the way. When the walls are dry, I take my hand, push it on the wall and rub. If I can dull that paint film with my hand so that you can see a dull spot on the wall when you stand back and look down the wall, then that paint has failed the burnish test. This means that every time a kid or a dog or a drunk adult bumps into the walls, there is going to be a dull spot there. After a year or so of wear, those walls really look like hell. BM's Regal eggshell does not burnish as easily, which is why I always say that companies claiming their washable flats are as durable as their eggshells are lying. And yes I hear all the time that I am nuts and may be the only person that notices these flaws, but you asked why it is not one of my favorites so there it is! All of these issues are exaggerated when you choose a dark color too.


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

Thanks for the opinions, Paintguy. I have used BM Regal Matte many times before - I have one area in my living room where I can see lap marks, but that's about it. My house has no areas where sunlight streams in. Sometimes I think I am in a cave! In the particular room in question, there is no outside light. There is a sunroom on the backside of the room, and while there are french doors leading to the sunroom, there are no other windows. Typically, I cut in and roll while the cut-ins are still wet. It sounds like with Aura, I would do all of the cut-ins, then go back and roll after they are dry - which doesn't sound like a long time. Lots of food for thought --- it seems like paint is like a woman's make-up. There are many choices and people have very definitive opinions of what is the best.
Currently, Regal Matte is $45 a gallon around here - and that is at the hardware store - one of the cheaper places --- I don't know what Aura would be.


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

paintguy,

I know what you are talking about on some paints. I used to on occasion have those issues with the matte and that again was before the formulas changed. I don't encounter any issues with the Regal Matte now. I definitely don't do a hand push on the wall immediately following application of a deep base. I would think someone is just asking for something to happen.

You won't hear me say you are nuts when finding flaws with something. Everyone has their own approach and knows certain products, what they will or will not do. I do however just roll my eyes when someone says they don't like a product or it failed when they have just used it 1 or 2 times or certain professions that "try" to know are just shooting off at the mouth. As a painter (you & I) most definitely need to know our products. Painting out sample boards does not make a skilled painter and know the ins & outs. I am always testing products to see what is compatible and pushing them to the limits and beyond. I do this a lot with bases because of other things that might be going over the base finishes. So, I'm sure you have used it enough and you know what works for you and your clients as other users as well.

Would agree the Aura base is great to work with. I would also do your cuts first and then come back with the roll finishes. I sometimes will use an extender in my Aura bases, depending on the amount of space & height I am working with. This might help you also green thumb.


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

Painting in caves is great. No light, no windows...those rooms always look the best from a technical perspective.

The old way of painting was to roll when the cut-ins are still wet. I think since the majority of high quality paints became all acrylic, those days are gone. Some paint store clerks may still be recommending that method if you ask them, but they are wrong. Depending on your drying conditions, sometimes if you try and roll over your cut in areas one minute later, you may get a flash. After a minute, that paint is too dry IMO. Any paint that is all acrylic, I think you should cut your whole room in and then roll your whole room after your cut-ins are completely dry. It is not just Aura that we paint with these days...it is every acrylic paint out there. If you get some cheaper vinyl/acrylic blend, you may still have enough open time to use the old method though.


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

Still haven't decided which paint I will ultimately choose, but am going to refine my "technique". Typically, I will get up on the ladder, cut a swath against the ceiling (and corner if I am in one) as far as I can reach - probably 3 or 4 feet.
Then I will do the top 1/3. Then get off the ladder and do the middle 1/3 and then edge the baseboard and do the bottom 1/3 and move on.
I believe what you are telling me is to do all of the cutting in (I realize I need to make sure I have feathered the edge so I don't get a line of glop) -- then roll. I assume you roll from top to bottom and keep moving. Now I don't know how I can do all of that in less than a minute before moving to the next area -- old wimp here --- but it sounds like what I should strive for.
Thanks for the tips. -- and I am not quite in a cave - but there are few areas in this house that get direct sunlight pouring in.

PS --- I just watched two videos on "how to paint". Believe me, on my WORST day, I would have done a better job than either of these two guys, especially the one who slopped paint all of the woodwork, because it was going to be painted anyway, and had not prepped the walls. There were bad spots everywhere that should have been sanded down and filled in ---- so maybe all in all I don't do too badly!!


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

nogreenthumb,
I would recommend doing your cut ins first. Letting dry and then come back with your rolled out finish. Here again, painters will have their own way of approaching the wall and the application method they are comfortable with. Ya know it's that thing of what works to them. I use a wooster sherlock extension pole to my wooster sherlock roller frame and I start at the corner and work left to right with the roller frame torqued in the direction I am painting (meaning the closed end of the roller). Less pressure, better control keeping the roller more steady. I start in the middle move upward and then down. Finishing with a top to bottom light finish roll. Different pressures for each pass.

If you are afraid of to heavy of a wet film when you are cutting in and are concerned with feathering to prevent a heavier line, one thing you can do while you are cutting in is to take a 3/8ths nap roller sleeve in 4" size and dutch roll your cut in line. This will help eliminate the possibility of any type of flash or hatbanding.

Again this is a wooster 4 1/2" roller frame that fits woosters 4 1'2 pro-doo-z rollers. I couldn't make it without these rollers. The rollers also have a closed in to reach into corners. Just another thought for you.

Here is a link that might be useful: This is a picture of the smaller roller frame


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

Thanks for the tips, Decorativewalls. It's not like I haven't painted before. I have probably painted every room in this house at least several times, also my mother's, sister's, etc., etc. ---- actually I do love to paint!! I just want to improve my skills. I really don't have any problems with the finished product - at least I don't see them. Just want to do it better.
After that debacle with the chalking paint, I was very skeptical to try another "deep" based paint - thought the base was the problem. Then "New Chestnut" is made in a deep base. I almost called my decorator to tell her to pick something else. I think I am still going to use the Regal Matte. Aura does sound intriguing, perhaps superior, but I don't want to get myself into a mess should I not be able to control the paint. I have spread many, many gallons of Regal Matte. Again, my concern was a darker color, -- but the New Chestnut is really not that dark. Almost like it is on the top edge of the colors needing a deep base. I just hope it doesn't turn out too dark. Paint colors are always traumatic for me!! Thanks for your help and reassurance that Regal Matte will work. I will be sure to use the BM primer underneath - I am sure the ACE primer will work as well, but I will buy the BM primer.


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

Here is a video of me rolling a wall after the cut-ins are dry.

Have a good laugh! Sorry for the squeaky roller frame.

Here is a link that might be useful: rolling


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

no laughing ---- thank you, thank you for the demo a picture IS worth a thousand words!!--- geesh --- I can get this done in half the time!! --- what roller nap do you use on smooth walls? - typically, I use 3/8" --- it looks like you can get a lot of paint on whatever roller you are using ---


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

paintguy,
now that is my idea plan of rolling a wall (EMPTY ROOM). Looks like a great job and covered with ease.

nogreenthumb, I use a 3/8ths white dove up to 1/2" for smooth walls.


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint Deep Base

Well, that is usually the biggest issue with homeowner painting...they just don't put enough paint on. I use 3/4" nap for flats and 1/2" for washable paints. But, if you don't spread it out properly and evenly by rolling back into the heavy areas enough, you can get into trouble with a bigger nap. This is why most paint stores will recommend 3/8" to novice painters. Also, another important thing is saturation of the sleeve....if you are not dipping heavy enough, then the sleeve will never get saturated and you will always be 'dry rolling'. The main reason we can go so far with one dip of the roller is that the sleeve itself is saturated through with paint. The goal should be that you want the saturated roller to really do the work for you. If you are pushing hard on the sleeve and sweating and running out of breath, then it is likely that your sleeve isn't properly saturated. You really don't want to push when you roll...it should just be you moving your roller frame up and down.


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

Paintguy, thanks for the input and for sharing your point of view. At this stage of the game, my guess is most forums members do not think you are nuts. Just experienced, opinionated, articulate, and most importantly balanced - else I wouldn't have asked you specifically to elaborate on your comment about Regal Matte.

And, hey, being a little nutty -- as in possessing characteristics that make you unique from other people yet still able to function in society -- isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's the *other* kind of nuts we have to worry about .:)


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

Here is a video of me rolling a wall after the cut-ins are dry.
Have a good laugh! Sorry for the squeaky roller frame.
First off,I feel the same about Regal matte, never did like it.
Second,I would have broken out the WD-40 for that frame,I CANNOT stand that squeak!
Third,I would have had my pan, bucket( whatever) closer to the wall, not so much back and forth
Fourth, I also use a 3/4 but as you said ,probably not wise for the DIY, but I think they could get away with a 1/2 instead of the basically worthless 3/8 for walls.


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

Thanks to all of you for your help and tips. I have been a DIY painter for 40 years - and learned a lot in just this one thread. I don't know if I would be able to handle a 3/4", but am certainly going to give the 1/2" a try. I long ago gave up on the 1/4" which is advertised on the roller wrap as being for smooth walls. I should have used 1/2" on the ceilings which have a very slight texture. And technique --- always thought you needed to paint into a wet edge - never tried all of the cutting in at once. That does make a lot of sense - and I know will shave time off the job. Appreciate all the help and tips from the pros!!


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

Sorry to ask a very basic question. It's a question that is probably immediately apparent to someone who can watch PaintGuys video. I can't.

Anyway, downstairs reno is nearly to the finished drywall, prime, and paint stage. I'm incurably curious, and we had been considering BM Regal Eggshell. A search term got me to this thread. After reading , I just got to know...

What the heck is "cutting in". Does that mean dealing with corners, paint along where wall meets ceiling or floor, etc.?

Nope...I won't be doing the painting, although it might be fun to try! Just curious, and it sounds like there are ways to get a great paint job and ways that might not have the same result.

Thanks for any answers.


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

Yes, cutting-in is what you do with the brush...ceiling lines, around trim, corners and along baseboards.


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

Thanks, Paintguy.
I've been reading old threads, trying to get a basic (very basic) understanding of paint and painting. Just one of the many things I've been learning about since getting our home renovation project going. Very helpful when I come across your responses.
Very glad that you and others put some time in on this forum.
Wellspring


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

Wow, LOVED your video. How do you get the paint to glide so smoothly? It seems like everytime I paint, I am constantly having to go back to the tray and my roller never covers that much ground so smoothly. I end up having to push really hard to get the paint to apply.

So your trick is saturating the sleeve? Do you just let it soak in the paint for a minute before beginning to let it seep all the way through?


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

No soaking of the sleeve required. I just dip very heavily the first few dips.


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

Jockewing - several posts up Paintguy also said that he uses a 1/2" or 3/4" nap roller sleeve. - that would make a big difference also in how much paint the sleeve can take up.


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RE: Benjamin Moore Paint - Deep Base

This thread refers to switching bases as though they are interchangeable - but I am finding that they subtly but noticeably change the color. Am I the only person who sees this and finds it to be a real problem.

I found a Janovic paint that I liked, which has a Benjamin Moore pastel base. While I would have preferred to use Aura, my experience, through MANY tests, was that the color would change significantly. Since I was concerned that the Janovic paint was an unknown brand, I had the color I picked made in Benjamin Moore Matte. I had a momentary, and costly, memory lapse and forgot to ask about the base.

I just had my 900 square foot loft painted and the color is a really ugly yellow under halogen light. I took out the large board I had painted and the color is slightly, but noticeably, warmer. I may now need to redo the paint job. I have the following questions:
- How many coats will I need? My painter says 2, but, given how slight the difference is, I am wondering if one will do.
- Does anyone have experience with the Janovic line?
- I'd like to do Matte, but, given the comments above about the washability of the BM Matte, I am concerned.

Thanks.


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