I probably have every card sent to me and family for ...who knows how long..doesn't seem right to throw them away. Everything I keep brings back memories. I am definitely the family historian. Now there's something I do acquire,,,genealogy & family history type items, paper, books, etc., almost all the papers my kids ever had from school, most all good toys kids had(they're 29 & 30), etc.

I love magazines and spend way to much money on them. I don't have intentions of collecting them but have a hard time throwing away...because they cost so much and someday I might need to find something in them!

I don't hoard food. As a matter of fact I never seem to have things to fix for meals and therefore we eat out or carry-in.

Have hard time throwing away mail...cause I might find out it is something we "need." That's the make phrase..."I might need it someday." Or "someone could get some use from this." I rationalize every thing that it shouldn't be waisted.

Anyone relate to me??

He saves all the cards and letters, intending to answer them all, but there are so many he becomes paralyzed. He never answers any of them.

Most cards are just cards - they really aren't precious. Letters I might save.

Magazines are just magazines - that information is also available on the internet. And I dare you to find a 5 year old magazine you searched for to find some remote article you may have once had an interest in. I'm certain you can't.

Junk mail is fricking JUNK, don't allow it in your house!

So yes, I do relate, but not in the form you're searching for - I'm on the other side. I live with someone who would save every mailed offer for life insurance, even though we DON'T NEED life insurance! And if I give up MY stuff to make room for ME, all he does is fill it up with CRAP.

So, while I live with someone with tendencies like you, and I do sympathize a small bit, you need to evaluate, and possibly change. This is a slippery slope towards hoarding, and it's really easy to slip over the edge.

I myself keep cards for a month or two, then give them to a friend who takes them to the nursing home. The residents make beautiful paper Christmas ornaments from them.

I agree with Mary_C. If you have a pile of magazines, how are you going to wade through all of them to find the one article you're looking for? If I really need to save an article, I tear it out of the magazine and put it into a file folder or three-ring binder. Then I can find it again.

When I read a magazine, I actually take notes. I think of it as a salvage mission. I only want to keep what I truly need, and get rid of the rest. I write down anything that catches my interest: book titles, internet links to investigate, recipes, etc. I might tear out a recipe or an entire article, if it's worth saving. When I'm done reading the magazine, I recycle it or leave it in a waiting room.

If you're worried that you're not going to "get your money's worth" out of the magazines, maybe you're better off not buying them at all. Read magazines for free at the library, then you won't have any money invested in them. And you won't have to store them after you've read them.

Lately, I have asked my husband to decide whether he's ever going to read those books on the shelves ever again, or are they better donated to the library book sale? After all, we can borrow virtually any book we want if we use the inter-library loan system. If it's not at our library, we might be able to find it somewhere else in the system. He is able to decide to keep the books that are irreplaceable, but not the ones that are already at the library. Progress. It makes it easier for us to find the books we DO want to read again. They don't get lost in the clutter of books that don't interest us as much.

As for junk mail, how often has something you saved actually ended up in the hands of a person who needed it? Examine your track record, and that can be your guide as to whether you ought to keep the mail that ended up at your house only because someone purchased a list with your name on it. If you have a relationship with the company, that's another matter. You probably ought to keep statements for the standard seven years, then discard them.

Only a couple of days ago, I dragged out a box of papers that are about ten years old. Many of the accounts have been closed. Why keep it? Even the IRS won't hold us accountable. So I am going to keep shredding until they are gone, and use the shreds out on the lawn to enrich the sandy soil.

Sorry to be so long-winded, but I think it comes down to this: Do your beliefs about stuff and your household organization habits help you to reach your goals? What are your goals? What makes you happy? If it's not going to lead to happiness, you might want to reconsider a particular idea or action.

In my own case, I have decided that less stuff to look at = less to think about. For me, simplicity = greater happiness. You might make different decisions about what to keep than I might. You might value having the stuff around to touch with your hands more than I might. You might wish to be surrounded by familiar things to feel security, and that is perfectly OK.

It is your life, and it is your stuff. Do whatever makes you happiest. :-)

There's an easy way to contain all that stuff. The things that are "memory stuff" are DEAD. Most of your house should be for LIVING. Designate one--ONLY one--area of your house for memories. Choose the things that matter most to you, and donate, sell (BOTH of these IMMEDIATELY), or throw away the rest.

You don't want to waste things? Fine. Neither do I. Our family of four generates two kitchen-sized trash bags of stuff per week--that's it. But the rest FINDS A HOME. When we donate, other people can enjoy our stuff, and we get $$$ of our taxes, too. When we eBay, we get money back from our stuff. Good toys do no one any good sitting around. Make a very small selection of the best and give the rest to people who will care for them. That way, your toys can bring wonderful memories to even MORE people.

When you start thinking how "you might need" junk mail someday, you've got a problem. You're hoarding trash. Get rid of it.

You don't have to ditch everything, but confine yourself to one small spare bedroom or, even better, a single closet.

I have a system where I try the recipe from the handwritten or torn-out-of-a-magazine recipe, then if we decide that the recipe is a "keeper," I type it up in the word processor. That way, I can reprint pages after several handwritten changes have been made to the recipes on each page.

My little sheaf of "magazine notes" certainly takes up a lot less space than the magazines they came from. And when I'm done perusing my notes, the papers get shredded.

And that brings me to my comments:

If you can organize the paper items you like to keep, and they're not just crammed into boxes and paper bags or stacked on end tables and counters, that's a good thing. But have you thought about the magazines this way: When "someday" comes, how much time will you have to invest in finding what you want in them? The other posters are on the right track there.

Also, I think there's probably a correlation between your desire to keep certain things and rationalizing behavior and your meal situations, no? A little portion of the amount of time you spend rationalizing on why to keep something could be redirected to planning for a few home-cooked meals a week. It might be that you're so focused on the "what ifs" that you miss some of the "right nows." (Unless you and your significant other just love to eat out frequently and try new places; and in that case, well, eat on!)

But one really good thing? Most hoarders don't even recognize that there COULD be something weird in their behavior. And you're not there yet!

as far as the geneology stuff, if you are really going to do something with it..fine..keep it ..or some of it that is important, in totes.

as far as the cards..go through them and keep only the really important ones, in an old card box..toss the rest..yes toss them..they are not that important girl.

magazines..once you have read through them..thumb through for coupons or articles you really must save..for whatever reason..and toss the entire rest of the magazine..keep the articles in a file cabinet and use the coupons to buy that food you need.

please throw away any mail that you are not going to act on immediately..esp catalogs..as you really won't need it..in 2 weeks you'll get another catalog..if not..save that catalog and when the new one comes from that co..throw the old one..yes they do sell out of things.

honestly..you show severe signs of becoming one of "those people"..so stop it right now !

Recognizing that your actions are problematic is a start. Speaking of my own newspaper clipping habit, I realize it's not sustainable. Stopping is another question entirely.

I realize that my collecting/hoarding actions compensate for something else in my life that I can't control. Mostly that has to do with time. I plan to write a book, but I don't have time to do it just yet, and I might need the stuff in these clippings "someday." Or it has to do with the level of control I have over my environment... I hold on to home decorating magazines that will help to make decisions "someday" when we actually finish the house renovation to the point where we will be decorating.

One thing that helped in some areas (like scavenging for stuff I might "someday" use in the yard) was that the "someday" actually arrived. My husband finally stopped complaining and pitched in and did something - we made a plan, spent the money on materials, spent the time doing it, and voila - with most of my stuff I was able to either use it as planned, or see definitively that I wasn't going to use it, and thus get rid of it without regrets (craigslist was an enormous help here, enabling me to get most of it to appreciative homes).

If you can make some of your "somedays" arrive, you may find the need for some of your collections just disappears. Or maybe you can at least identify what your "somedays" are and make a plan for when they do arrive (eg kids leaving home), then you are at least plotting a course out of it.

Another thing that I know handicaps me in stopping is that I can't get rid of things until I know exactly what I've got. So I need a place for it where I can collect and sort it, and then I can make rational decisions what to discard. Let's say it's HD flyers or something in your case - don't just stash them wherever (which we tend to do when we feel bad about what we collect), but rather give them a place in your house, file them in sequence, and then keep only a year at a time. That might still shock a lot of people, but if it's what you need to do to survive and plot your way out, so be it. We all have our weaknesses.

Part of the process has to be just forgiving yourself for what you do, and accepting that it is what you have to do survive whatever other challenges you face. For me, forgiving myself is a first step to dealing with any excesses I'm indulging in. I find the urges subside a bit when I just accept them in myself. It's like an acknowledgement, and maybe it's something in short supply in your life - I know it is in mine. The least we can do is give it to ourselves.

Specifically, kids school/artwork and magazines can be difficult. I'm currently trying to figure out how to deal with my rather extensive collection of gardening magazines. I fortunately have stopped buying them, but getting rid of them is another question entirely. I've tried just ripping out the ad pages so I still have the articles and that does reduce the volume by about one fifth, but man is it time consuming, and four fifths of the volume is still a lot of magazines. Other kinds of magazines I just tear out the articles or pictures I want to keep - I have file folders or just baskets for these - and recycle the rest. I rationalize wrecking what is otherwise perfectly good reading material for someone else on the basis that it is good for the economy to stimulate the purchase of new magazines rather than to flood the market with old ones.

Kids schoolwork, if the teacher assigned it and it is a teacher-designed activity, I reason that there is no real personal reflection of the child in it, and I can mostly throw it away. I do have a box/drawer for each kid where the stuff is that really does reflect who they were are different stages, often stuff they did at home. Not that everything's in those boxes yet, but at least I have a system for deciding to keep/throw away. Then eventually I will thin out the drawers, so I have only a couple of exemplars of each stage. In many cases I reason that the purpose was to keep the kids busy for that day or develop in them a particular skill, and once that purpose is achieved, the work has served its purpose and need not be kept forever.

Those are some of my techniques for winnowing down the stuff that plagues me to keep but that I am somehow driven to hold on to. I hope they help you a bit - because we are all writing the script right now for what kind of old people we are going to be, and I think we all want to be easy on ourselves and on those who care for us!

Good luck,

KarinL

I think that's how the clipping habit starts. You think that for some reason YOU have been selected as the person to seek out and deliver information to others. I say, if they are really are that interested, they can try to find the answer themselves.

It's different if it's something important, like helping someone who is trying to find a job. Or you hold information that is not available just anywhere, such as grandma's cookie recipe that is so beloved among your family members. In that case, make yourself useful.

It takes wisdom to know the difference.

But at the same time, that sort of thing connects us to other people. I think the balance is where it is mutual and reciprocated. If it is always one sister doing it for another (or "to another" like the sister-in-law using relatives to store stuff!), it is probably something that needs to be curbed. But if it is something you do for each other, or in support of something that you know the person is trying to do, then I see it as something worth using your brain and space for.

I guess my question for you would be, if you need to clear your brain of something that connects you to your sister, then what are you clearing it FOR?

(Not that relatives are always positive connections, but assuming that this one is...)

KarinL

If help is requested, of course I give it.

In the case of my sister, if she tastes my cooking and asks for the recipe, I copy and paste it in an e-mail to her. If she calls with a cooking question, I answer it.

But I am changing my habits about sacrificing my sanity by making myself hold on to articles and clippings other fragments of flotsam that I think MIGHT help a certain person. I stay my hand when I feel the urge to rip out the article. Just one more thing to keep track of. Yes, for you, it's not a drain on your energy. Just take my word that for my health at this time, I have to conserve my energy.

For all I know, my sister has already learned how to butcher and fricassee a winter squash without my help (she's been getting help from her MIL) which is why the squash article is just useless jumble for both her and me.

My husband reminds me of the oxygen masks on the airplanes. If I don't help myself, how can I help others? If my well runs dry, should I expect someone else to fill it back up for me? I give and give and give, and don't have many sources to get energy back. Maybe that's why I am dealing with cancer.

I am trying to learn how to build up my strength. My life depends on it.

she will spend $ to send me boxes of things that I don't want or need..when she sends me clippings it is always something i don't care for..or even want..and i end up throwing it away..

even myself I find that i want to share things ..generally news clips..with people..when they really don't care to hear them..at least it isn't physical clutter but mental clutter..noise clutter..etc..

i think there are always a lot of underlying emotional issues in a lot of things we do.

i love this forum

As I said in my earlier comment, I like how MaryLiz has articulated how we tend to burden ourselves with the imagined needs of others. I've had to wrench myself out of that same mindset, not necessarily in clipping but in other things. I've also been there where you're neglecting yourself while giving too much to people, and often of stuff or help they don't really want! In my case, I have ulcers and other breakdowns of the physical plant to prove it, and wish you well with the cancer battle, MaryLiz.

All I wanted to say at the same time was that these are some of the things that connect us to people. As I've mentioned on another thread, I have friends - well, "friends" - who wouldn't spare the space in their house to save a piece of paper for me, while demanding all sorts of favours of me - and their houses look perfect while they look down their noses at me because mine is a mess. It's not a good feeling, when people won't disrupt their perfect lives for you, and it was that sentiment that came at me from your post.

I think the point was that it isn't just about the piece of paper but about the fact that someone took the trouble to hold on to it for you. The thought does count, in other words. And dismissing the idea because the person can get this info from the internet (maybe from strangers on a forum!) rather than from you is not a connecting, engaging thought. Most of us connect a little too much with computers and a little too little with each other!

MaryLiz, you expressed the moment initially as if it was doing this for your sister was something that would disrupt the perfect order of your life, not as something that would overwhelm you. There is a difference, and I apologize if I misinterpreted where it came from.

KarinL

I have a sister who incessantly sends me articles on scrapbooking and all the supplies one can buy. I don't scrapbook and I never will. I think she likes the idea of scrapbooking, and considers me "crafty", and she sublimates her desire, but lack of motivation, onto me.

I also have a neighbor who brings me stuff she thinks I might want - like two old pressure cookers. I once said I wouldn't buy a pressure canner because I didn't have room to store it. Next thing I know she's given my husband two ratty old pressure cookers.

Well, I don't want them. You need an actual pressure CANNER to can vegetables in, and I don't even want to do that.

She brought them to my husband when I wasn't home, because she knew I would refuse them, and then she'd feel guilty about throwing them out. She has a brand-new lovely working pressure cooker. She just doesn't want the responsibility of tossing something she no longer wants. So since the DH accepted them, I'm now responsible for tossing or getting them to Goodwill.

Nope, KarinL, I don't ask anything of this friend, except to not give me her junk to deal with. Most, if not all, clippings fall squarely into this category.

If you don't, I guarantee you she will bring you other treasures while you are gone and DH is home.

Stop her now, and leave DH out of it. He may be feeling like he's caught in the cross-fire.

Barbara

I have told her repeatedly to NOT dump this stuff on us. Unfortunately it's not "in the bud". She used to bring stuff for the DH to fix, which he did, but she'd never take them back. Then he, with his hoarding tendencies, would store them.

Yes, I have been throwing or donating anything worthy of donating.

I really do need to just refuse the "gifts". She needs to deal with her own "life-crap". I have enough of my own.

You can show you're thinking about someone a thousand ways. Expressing it through the inappropriate transfer of objects is no better than only being able to express emotions through food-centered activities. Emotional acquisition or giving is like emotional eating or cooking. There's a place and time for it, but it's not the answer to every situation, and marking emotional connections excessively in this way isn't healthy!

My policy is if I give a gift, it's gone. I don't give things I'm not willing to part with completely.

You may want to put conditions on your gift, and that's fine. But it is then a loan, not a gift.

It's changing as I get older and as the emotional issues in my life get evened out. But even where it is still a problem, I've learned though that beating myself up about it only makes it worse.

I get rid of what I'm ready to get rid of and forgive myself for what I can't do yet. And funnily enough, it's easier to let go when I'm not trying to push myself to do it.

KarinL

KarinL

sure some people send me things i don't need and i feel they are wasting their time and money and sometimes they even send me offensive things..

but if any of you are fans of Alexandra Stoddard and have read her books..you will see that she considers it a great gift to save a clipping or item for a friend that you think that they will use...it is an ultimate act of love.

lets be careful not to judge the motives of each other..or those giving things to us we don't want.

as i said in a post elsehwere on here..if someone gives you all kinds of things you don't want..you can always donate them to charity..if they are paper items..throw them away if there is no value to you or someone you know.

allow them to continue if they can afford to do it..

i remember telling someone once that had a hoarder friend that wanted to give them stuff..take it..put it in the car or truck and drop it off at a charity next time you go buy..you are doing your hooarding friend a favor and someone else who will get it from a charity a favor too.

sometimes i get a little harsh myself..so i apologize for that ahead of being judge for it.

An ultimate act of love is laying down your life for a family member. Paper clippings just aren't in this type of equation.

My friends and family members who compulsively clip, save, store, and hoard need to stop. They don't need me to tell them, "Yes, OK, I'll take everything". That simply feeds into their bad habits.

Sure, I can throw this crap away. But why should I have to be responsible for their stuff?

If I've told them in no uncertain terms I don't want to deal with their stuff, then I feel no obligation to take it.

I don't know Alexandra Stoddard's works, and I'm certain I don't want to read any of them.

I've been a silent fan of your posts for a long time. You contribute a lot to the forums because you genuinely share your ideas and opinions. Please don't stop just bc someone slams you once in a while.

mary c, there are ways to disagree respectfully on gw, and I wish you would use them. Slamming has been around since the beginning of the internet, and there are plenty of websites where it is practiced as a fine art, but gardenweb isn't one of them. You made some good points in your post, but you also threw some mean punches that added nothing to your message except spitefulness.

IF I have told people to stop sending us this stuff - well, then, THEY SHOULD STOP. I have told everyone in my life that I don't want magazine clippings, internet jokes, recipes, quilt patterns, or whatever.

If they continue, it's not out of love, it fulfills some need they have. I don't want to be held responsible for their needs, especially if it means I must save their stuff.

It is not a blessing, it is not a gift of love. It's stuff someone is trying to pawn off on me or the DH to deal with because they don't want to deal with it themselves.

So NO.

Thank you, that was classy. I agree the typed word can come across more harshly than it might if we were speaking the same words.

And what you said about internet jokes, amen. Have you heard of the Boulder Pledge, written by Roger Ebert (of Siskel and Ebert fame)?

The Boulder Pledge is a personal promise, first coined by Roger Ebert in 1996,[77] not to purchase anything offered through email spam. The pledge is worded by Ebert as follows:

" Under no circumstances will I ever purchase anything offered to me as the result of an unsolicited e-mail message. Nor will I forward chain letters, petitions, mass mailings, or virus warnings to large numbers of others. This is my contribution to the survival of the online community. "

Ebert coined the term during a panel at the University of Colorado at Boulder's Conference on World Affairs in 1996. He wrote the text which appears above and encouraged everyone to take the pledge. It was subsequently published in the December 1996 issue of Yahoo! Internet Life magazine in Ebert's column titled "Enough! A Modest Proposal to End the Junk Mail Plague."

I think of the boulder pledge whenever I get one of those recipe chain emails. I can't think of 20 friends to forward one of those to. Yes, I have 20 friends, but not friends who would welcome such an email. So I remember the pledge and hit delete. But I digress...

Warm regards,
Alex

It isn't valid to classify everyone having an occasional glass of wine as an alcoholic, and it isn't valid to call everyone who occasionally shares a clipping a hoarder.

And while I think "ultimate gift of love" is taking it a bit far, the idea is not so far off... it can be done selflessly with nothing behind it but a kind thought for someone, and there is nothing wrong with graciously accepting it from someone who does it that way.

But that's me, and my life; everyone has different parameters and different relationships to deal with. What's nice about these forums is that we learn about other perspectives. Like a clipping that someone gives us, we can fling the perspective back in the face of the giver, which occasionally has a purpose, for example to foster discussion! Or we can quietly accept it... and then do what we want with it.

KarinL

Disclaimer: The fact that I realize I should not spend too much energy on control issues does not mean that I am harmoniously floating in the inner circle of peace, however!

I understand what you're saying - it's just a clipping, it's just a bit of paper. I should be gracious and accept it.

Well, you don't live with someone incapable of throwing out any clipping from anyone no matter who or how inconsequential.

We have books here warning of the coming financial crisis for 1988 - he can't part with them. He retired 16 years ago and brought home massive amounts of files. They lived in a row behind the sofa for a year, because simply putting them in boxes caused him massive anxiety. They are now boxed up and in a closet, but he still can't let them go. They mean nothing to anyone else, but sending them to a landfill means (TO HIM), it's like his life meant nothing if it can now be dumped. It's not true, of course, and he has 12 patents to his name - some of which make your computers go.

If you don't live with someone who has a tendency to hoard - don't judge. He's not insane, but he does have this need to save.

I do live with one. And if I tell you to quit sending stuff, well stop!

I stand by every single thing I've said. I do need to control my world, and keep my husband from tipping over into the dark side of hoarding.

I have a dear friend back East who was "outed" as a hoarder earlier in the year. Our social circle always knew there was something not quite right, but this was before hoarding had the name and noteriety it has today. Eccentric? Someone who just loved her stuff? Someone who defined herself by what she possessed? Someone who enjoyed living in a house that was like a museum storeroom? We didnt realize the scope of it until it took four of us friends a month to help her pack up to move into an independent living apartment in an over 55 community.

We tried to use the moving as the opportunity to sort and cull, but it was impossible - everything was meaningful, everything had a story. And with a mind like a card catalogue, she would have known if something was missing had we the opportunity to start trash bags.

It was an object lesson to me - decorate and accessorize my home with the things I love, but keep in mind that no one will ever love my junk as much as I do. If I don't deal with things responsibly, someday, somehow someone else will have to deal with stuff and in a way I might not like. Seeing my friend burdened by her possessions (even though they're currently in three large storage lockers) tells me hoarding is a debilitating mindset that rarely can be put right with a shovel and a dumpster.

I don't think our ideas are at all at odds.

I have a lot of freinds and family members that are clinical hoarders and i know what you are dealing with when you are dealing with a clinical hoarder and how it can destroy families..so I agree with you in that I understand your feelings.

I do however find that in some cases we can actually be helpfully encouraging by helping some people that are clinical hoarders if they do offer things that are of value..and help to remove them to a charity where someone else will be their caretaker and love those items, there are so many "needy" people out there now.

If i am visiting and someone offers me something of value that isn't too large (no pianos or large furniture)..but something i can sit in the trunk or back seat of my car with little effort..and I know it would do them better by not having it in their home..and if i'm going past a charity on my way home..i can just as easily take it with me and drop it to the charity.

will i do this every time..no..often..not necessarily..but should i feel that it will benefit them to not have it and benefit someone else to have it..yes I'll occasionally take their item to pass it on to someone else.

as for clippings..i do discourage them because i know it is costing that person postage..and i'll inevitably throw it away..but if it will hurt their feelings..i'd just rather throw it away myself..as i do with all other junk mail.

yeah I have to agree with that. As a recovering hoarder I know first hand how difficult it can be for a hoarder to let go of things, so after agonising and finally deciding "I'll give this away" and then being refused can be a set back. If you know someone who chronically hoards and you have the opportunity to take something off them, do it (unless you are a hoarder yourself) because just getting to that point can be very hard for some people and each time they give something up can be a step closer to getting better. Just my 2c

mary c, already I assumed that you process your own mail or gifts because you described stuff being sent to you personally and stuff I assume (again) DH would not be interested so my remarks are about an individual making his or her own choices. It wasn't about whether one choice is better than another or has to be justified. I get stuff given to ME and it isn't taken over by someone else--it's mine to keep or toss. But perhaps instead, or as well, you meant you get stuff delivered to your "household" and then someone grabs onto it and you can't throw it away.

There are many people who reject all "unwanted" or extraneous stuff and maintain very spare spaces because that's how they like to live, not because of hoarder connections. I think it's interesting to allow for individual behaviors that don't have or require an obvious reason for being (though it might be in the back of the brain somewhere) as well as those that are are traceable to specific life situations.

I'm so glad you posted the Boulder Pledge. When I get email, I often feel guilty about not forwarding things, especially from good friends whose message urges me to. I never forward virus warnings or petitions (useless unless personally signed), but before, I have saved friends' emails for a couple of weeks until they are probably forgotten; then I delete. Now I'll do it imediately, with much less guilt! You can tell I don't get much mail in the first place! Otherwise I'd be inundated.

Thanks for the "Pledge" - gives me a good reminder.

so nope..i unapologetically dispose of them immediately.

it can cost a lot of money getting a computer fixed

From my own experience it isnt about the love of things or collections but the real problem is the emotional response that comes with getting rid of things and that's a crucial part of the sickness that needs to be addressed. my husband would try to have a clear out and I would frantically pull things out of the bin and carry them back into the house, it's the only thing that quiets the overwhelming emotions of anxiety and feeling like your world is spinning out of control as you see those things being discarded. It's a bit like an anorexic who wont eat because how they treat food gives them a sense of control over their life, hoarding is very similar in that it's that same sense of control that the hoarder is looking for.

But you are right, nothing will change unless the hoarder acknowledges the problem to themself, and decides that they just dont want to live that way anymore.

Ron not only is ocpd but has a serious head injury with panic attacks and anxiety disorder..so i have to walk on eggshells around him, and removing things from our house to trash or charities is very difficult..but i do manage to do it..but if it is HIS things i do have to be super careful not to upset his applecart...

some people don't "get it" ..that it is a clinical thing..with a lot ..actually most people that hoard.

just like a lot of people think that fat people "just overeat and don't move"..

honestly it is a bit of bigotry when people can't try to find out and understand people that are different than they are and try to be helpful or at least non judgemental..but it is hard to see beyond the surface a lot of times..

that makes these forums so wonderful..more points are given from more directions than just one..deeper digging.

I reached a point a few years ago where I couldnt take it anymore. I wasnt as bad as some people get with the clutter but I was definitely on my way with every cupboard, drawer, nook overflowing and so I had boxes piling up in rooms to store more stuff and my tiny little house was getting smaller and smaller. I did get help and have come such a long way since then that I still have to pinch myself at how much things have changed. But I still have to keep challenging my thoughts so I dont go back to how things were and even after all this time Im still working on getting rid of the stuff that I collected along the way but there is a lot less than there used to be.

Not that I'm considering those, but just to say that if someone around you is hoarding, just forcing them to stop may not lead to the utopia you expect. On the other hand, dealing with the underlying emotional deficit (if you can) might make the hoarding go away effortlessly.

KarinL

Yep that's totally true and often it will just upset the hoarder and make them dig their heels in. Karinl you are going about it in exactly the right way. There is no need to put pressure on yourself or have any time limits on how long it should take to declutter and it is much better to work at a pace you feel comfortable with. Keep telling your husband and yourself "I will get there" and I *am* getting there. It takes as long as it takes :)

I have acquired books from either the library or for keeps since childhood too, but when I was young I had the time to read them, and did so - now, I buy them (also a lot of them, mostly 2nd hand) I think in part to compensate for the fact that I haven't got time to read them.

And speaking of books, a friend gave me "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" today. Funnily enough I'd never read this although it has of course become a legend in its 25 years. I opened it tonight and immediately became immersed and read nearly the whole thing (fortunately I had time tonight; my son's appendicitis was LAST week!). It struck me that there is a lot there that might help those of you who live with hoarders, if you haven't read it. I'm going to see if my husband wants to read it... it just might help him deal with me :-) which will help me since the collecting I do doesn't serve either of us. It may even help me help myself....

KarinL

I'm with Mary C here, of course. A clipping is no more an ultimate act of love than sending someone food!

>If I were to give my son my set of very expensive dishes that are over 40 years old but in really good condition, I feel I have the right to say to him and his wife that if they decide they don't want it at some point, they should give it to one of their siblings who would appreciate it.

If something is designated "family" in our family, it must first be offered around and then discarded if no one wants it. But you don;t have to hang onto it if you don't want it.

Lots of bad/hurt resentment between the two women.

DH and I try to sort through/give away stuff every year to keep it from piling up. I am finally at the point where I can take my (current) magazines to the local hospital and leave them in the waiting room. Junk mail is tossed when it comes in. We got rid of all books except reference books. We buy books at the thrift store, read them, and donate them back.

I agree, though, about keeping things with personal meaning and setting limits. I keep the LAST card that I received from special people, especially elderly relatives. Then, if they pass away, I have kept the card and will likely save it. Small family, so they fit in one momento box that is letter sized.

I have been trying to convince myself that i need to give away clothes that I'm not wearing. Still have a "just in case" snow coat that only wear every three or four years. Does not make sense, and I know it.

My worst area is crafts. I buy craft supplies and then don't get around to using them. Finally made myself stay out of Michael's. I am thinking of donating some of the cardboard boxes etc that I never got around to painting. They take up too much room.

I have a huge stash of fabric from my quilting days. Gave some to a cousin but still have way too much.

Can I sign up for an intervention via internet?

I've been remodeling my bathroom with every spare moment for the past week, so DH has be "in charge" of the house. I'll post pics when I can, but needless to say, it looks like the site of a war. When I finish here, I'm going to have to take care of that, too. It's going to be ten kinds of misery, but that doesn't mean I don't have to do it. No, I won't get an anxiety attack, but it wouldn't make a difference if I did. It still has to get done.

I've seen the film. The filmmaker and her mother were both present, and the mother still seemed to be in denial about the extent of her problems during the Q & A afterward.

It's interesting to me that so much of the time the hoarding (or the worsening of the habit) so closely follows a divorce or a death.

Rather than an hour of filming garbage, the viewing public might be better served by getting a closer examination of the therapies involved in helping these unfortunate victims. I'm sure the triggers for hoarding are as diverse as the hoarders, but there has to be common threads beyond what this program allows us to be privy to. I'm also sure I'm expecting too much of a television program.

What really need to be studied are both causes and treatments.

On that discussion I linked to, a few therapists wrote comments that were shockingly unhelpful and self-serving, along the lines of, you need to get the person into therapy and not rush them to clean up their stuff. But sometimes the stuff has to be cleaned up in a hurry to avert dire consequences, such as eviction, threats to health, impact on neighbors, and so on. Probably in the majority of cases the person refuses to get help and doesn't think she or he has a problem. Or even if they are willing, they can't afford therapy. So what then? Is the family to do nothing?

One of the people on that discussion said it would have been easier if her mother had been an alcoholic.

I haven't watched the show, but it sounds more voyeuristic than informative.

I posted a comment above about this. People who dont understand this disorder see the junk and clutter and think that is the problem that needs to be taken care of and it's all done, it is not about the junk. The junk is just a symptom of the disorder which is caused by other issues.

Getting the person in to therapy and not rushing them is exactly how this disorder needs to be treated if it is going to work. The hoarder first needs to understand why they are doing this (for many people they simply will not know- it's just something they do and cant control, it's compulsive behaviour).

Then, to clean up the junk and clutter the hoarder needs to approach it in a way that does not cause them overwhelming anxiety, panic or other out of control emotional responses from the underlying issues. If they feel overwhelmed they can't progress and they will get overwhelmed very easily, it needs to be done at a rate that doesnt overwhelm them so they learn to reprogram their thinking along the way and that can't happen if they get rushed in to it.

Then, even for hoarders--sure, the idea is, it won't "help" a hoarder start a new life in his or her same home and circumstances to go in and do a clean sweep and say, ta-da, lookee, Mom, you're all cleaned up now. But, if a family is in a situation of having to sell a home or move someone to assisted living, then you aren't going to be saying, we'll get to that after 5 years.

no there wont always be a choice but the best thing is still to get them in to therapy to help them cope with people going in and cleaning up their stuff, to a hoarder that is like having your world turned upside down.

There are some signs that someone is a clinical hoarder rather than being depressed or disorganised. Things like how they react when you try to get them to throw something they've been keeping out. A clinical hoarder will get visibly upset no matter what the item is. Another clue is someone who collects useless items that obviously have no worth or purpose. You'll see some of these things mentioned in this thread, empty paint cans, staples, garbage etc.

The point I was trying to make is that people often cant see past the "junk" and realise there's actually something much deeper going on that is treatable with proper help and those "shockingly unhelpful and self serving comments" mentioned were actually right on the money.

Also, from what I've read, it's extremely difficult to even get the person to accept that they have a problem, and there's no way to force them to go to therapy. And then, even if they are willing to go, many people in those circumstances don't have the means to pay for treatment. So what then?

So for a therapist to make a blanket statement that anything other than getting the person into therapy should not be done -- well, I do find that unhelpful for anyone who has to deal with the effects of this kind of problem.

If someone was about to jump off a bridge, would you stand there and try to figure out why they were doing it, or would you grab them and pull them back to safety?

to use your own example, if you pull someone back from a bridge then what? do you walk away so they can try it again next week? Do you tell yourself you fixed their problem? Pulling them back to safety wont solve the problems that led them to that bridge in the first place . If you have a loved one who is suicidal, or has any other mental disorder, and they need help, you get them help. You dont force them into therapy you encourage them in to it.

Hoarders arent retarded or delusional or crazy, they have a compulsive disorder. Many hoarders are well aware they have a problem and are desperate for help, but they have no idea what they need to get out of the compulsive behaviour and there can also be a lot of shame involved. People will try to help them by taking charge and dealing with the junk but it doesnt work because the junk is not the actual problem and an important part of therapy for a hoarder is learning to get rid of the stuff, facing the anxiety in a controlled way and learning a new thought process as they do it

But what I'm saying is that in the case of hoarding, many times the stuff is the problem for OTHER PEOPLE -- for family, neighbors, and communities. Often it has triggered a situation in which the hoarder will lose his or her home if it's not cleaned up. When the stuff impinges on health and safety, sometimes this cleaning needs to be done rather quickly. It's unfortunate that this is not the best way to deal with it from the standpoint of the hoarder, but that's the reality of it.

It is incredibly hard to get someone else "into therapy". That doesn't mean it shouldn't be a goal, but agree with poster above that someone saying glibly, you need to get them into therapy, is not a whole lot more helpful than saying you need to clean up the junk. But yes, trancegemini, it is good to look at as a problem being re-defined, like alcoholism, so you don't just say, stop drinking (or actually you do, and it will work for some drinkers, but a lot of people will need more). So now there's a lot of structured alcohol treatment and public awareness.

So one actually helpful thing that could come of all the sensationalism and publicity would be more concrete information for families about--where help is available; what kinds of therapy or therapists should they look for;a range of options for the range of the problem--some people might do okay in informal support groups and others fit more clearly into mental illness; print materials you might leave with the loved one (oh no, more paper to hoard!); evidence-driven suggestions for what types of approaches make it more likely for a person to seek help (?go with a family member; ? on-line confidential programs as are now being use for other problems like smoking or weight loss). Of course, lots of opportunities for rip-offs of vulnerable people, but still.

I think people really should just approach it the same way they would if it was any other problem and obviously that depends on your relationship with the hoarder. If it's someone you are close to you may have to come right out and talk to them about it. you may have to say "I think you have a problem" and just see what they say.

If you can get them to talk about it will give you a lot of insight into how they really feel about it. If they let you know it's making them miserable and they hate living this way, tell them you will help them, support them, tell them you will find out for them what help is available, go with them if they need you to but focus on them getting proper help.

Obviously Im talking about clinical hoarders here. I think most people are what you would call casual hoarders to varying degrees, everyone has stuff that they dont need or use but can't bear to part with but hoarding to a clinical hoarder is a different thing and has a very big importance in their life so Im not saying every hoarder needs therapy but someone who hoards compulsively will need help.

Other than the stuff I squirrel away, I am a pretty normal person who achieves normal things, and who has many things quite adequately sorted and organized, like the successful non-hoarders on this forum. So, I'm probably just casual. Maybe the problem is calling it hoarding... maybe we need a new name, like "keepers."

KarinL

What do hoarders do if they are impeded by a lack of money, or are living with someone who just won't put up with piles of junk? Or, if they're in an assisted living place where there may be rules etc.

I do think there's an interesting question in whether we can't "manage" more than a certain amount of stuff. (Kind of like those studies that show we can have only a limited number of items in short term memory.) Maybe we just reach a certain number of posessions and can't meaningfully remember or manage them.

My DH, at age 55, sometimes says to me, "Maybe I ought to start collecting something!" (as if it's a school assignment! LOL) I told him that if you have to DECIDE to collect, you ain't no collector! LOL

I also know that there are people who have basically no hobbies, hence no need for special equipment/supplies etc., for those things. Some people are sentimental and photos, papers, etc. are important to them. Others look at these things and toss them as clutter. Some folks are middle grounders.

All that being said, I DO think that people who are actual "hard-core" hoarders probably have some mental/emotional issues going on that are, perhaps, manisfested in that type of behavior. Everybody has issues, we just exhibit them in different ways, I guess.

Hoarding and all its exposure in the last few years, especially, is a volatile subject. People's possessions are important to them - no matter what others think of them.

I think all of us on this forum have issues with "stuff" - either how to organize it, what to keep, where to throw it away, etc.

If I were the hoarder, I don't think I'd let them on the scene. I know they think they are 'helping' but having to deal with my own emotions and theirs also would really be hard for me.

Is it only me, how would you react?

Barbara

I thought that Dick was going to have a stroke he kept getting so mad and agitated the other night. I thought it said a lot that his cousins were trying to help him. I began to think that if I were them I might just throw up my hands, let him live that way and quit taking his verbal abuse while they were trying to help him.

I'll always remember the hoarder from the first season who had all the teddy bears, her friends were helping her and she accused one of doing things behind her back. If I had been that friend I would have laid her out, I couldn't believe her nerve. I loved this week when the organizer was actually incredulous when the guy whose family was living outside on the lawn because of a bed bug infestation had the nerve to express concern that the crew might damage the floors that for years had been covered with so much crap they couldn't be seen. Now that was a genuine response I could relate to.

Many of these hoarders are not just choosing things over people they are choosing garbage over their children and spouses. That's a very painful and cruel reality. I'm sorry but abusive spouses and parents often maintain their love for their victims - however the reality is that violence is not an expression of love. Similarly I don't think making your children and spouse live in filth is an expression of love or regard for them.

Anybody else clean up something or throw something away after an episode?

>Is it only me, how would you react?
I wouldn't damage others so much by my hideous selfishness that they would become so imbittered. No, I don't feel sorry for the hoarders in the least--the ONLY one I felt a lick of sympathy for was the man who thought he was going to sell all the scrap metal to help his grandkids.

>I think all of us on this forum have issues with "stuff" - either how to organize it, what to keep, where to throw it away, etc.

I'm just looking for greater efficiency, as I've discovered that small organizational improvements make a big life impact--like moving the vacuum cleaner parts from being crammed in a box the top of the closet to a canvas sack hanging from a hanger, or like moving the hats and gloves from a sack to a hanging shoe organizer. I wouldn't call that an "issue" at all.

>I resent the theory that everyone who hoards is mentally ill, OCD, etc. I simply have too much stuff and not enough storage room. I have lots of hobbies,I love to read magazines, especually about gardening and cooking. I have a lot of clutter. I also have a lot of interests. I am not some pathetic sicko stuck in the past.

If you're living in squalor, something is wrong. It's either supreme slatternliness or an illness or, most often, both. There's a difference between hoarding and moderate mess, just like there's a difference between alcoholism and periodic social drinking. But a habitual drinker has a serious problem if it interferes with life, even if he isn't technically addicted.

I had always suspected hoarding, because I saw a lot of clutter piled up along the exterior walls whenever we dropped her off at her house.

When we stepped inside for the first time, I realized that it definitely hoarding. There was only a path from one room to the other. In the kitchen, there were piles of clothing and plastic shopping bags mixed with bags of cookies and instant noodles. All horizontal surfaces were covered, except for the sink and the stove. It would have been impossible to stand in front of the stove, or even open the oven door.

Poor lady. She's at the age where I don't think anyone can change her ways.

After seeing her house, I could tell that my hubby, who is already on the decluttering bandwagon, wanted to be absolutely sure we didn't end up like that. He helped me find some more unused stuff and send it to its proper places.