Ronbre - are you freaking kidding here? A great gift? An ULTIMATE act of LOVE?? What a crock of crap.

An ultimate act of love is laying down your life for a family member. Paper clippings just aren't in this type of equation.

My friends and family members who compulsively clip, save, store, and hoard need to stop. They don't need me to tell them, "Yes, OK, I'll take everything". That simply feeds into their bad habits.

Sure, I can throw this crap away. But why should I have to be responsible for their stuff?

If I've told them in no uncertain terms I don't want to deal with their stuff, then I feel no obligation to take it.

I don't know Alexandra Stoddard's works, and I'm certain I don't want to read any of them.

Ronbre,

I've been a silent fan of your posts for a long time. You contribute a lot to the forums because you genuinely share your ideas and opinions. Please don't stop just bc someone slams you once in a while.

mary c, there are ways to disagree respectfully on gw, and I wish you would use them. Slamming has been around since the beginning of the internet, and there are plenty of websites where it is practiced as a fine art, but gardenweb isn't one of them. You made some good points in your post, but you also threw some mean punches that added nothing to your message except spitefulness.

ronbre, I, also, appreciated the insight and tact displayed in your post. Keep up the good work!

Well, I'll get blasted for this, too, but I will stand by my response. Yes, I can see that I might have come across as spiteful, but that really wasn't my intent. But enabling hoarders to shove stuff on others is really a pet peeve of mine.

IF I have told people to stop sending us this stuff - well, then, THEY SHOULD STOP. I have told everyone in my life that I don't want magazine clippings, internet jokes, recipes, quilt patterns, or whatever.

If they continue, it's not out of love, it fulfills some need they have. I don't want to be held responsible for their needs, especially if it means I must save their stuff.

It is not a blessing, it is not a gift of love. It's stuff someone is trying to pawn off on me or the DH to deal with because they don't want to deal with it themselves.

So NO.

Mary c: "might have come across as spiteful, but that really wasn't my intent."

Thank you, that was classy. I agree the typed word can come across more harshly than it might if we were speaking the same words.

And what you said about internet jokes, amen. Have you heard of the Boulder Pledge, written by Roger Ebert (of Siskel and Ebert fame)?

The Boulder Pledge is a personal promise, first coined by Roger Ebert in 1996,[77] not to purchase anything offered through email spam. The pledge is worded by Ebert as follows:

" Under no circumstances will I ever purchase anything offered to me as the result of an unsolicited e-mail message. Nor will I forward chain letters, petitions, mass mailings, or virus warnings to large numbers of others. This is my contribution to the survival of the online community. "

Ebert coined the term during a panel at the University of Colorado at Boulder's Conference on World Affairs in 1996. He wrote the text which appears above and encouraged everyone to take the pledge. It was subsequently published in the December 1996 issue of Yahoo! Internet Life magazine in Ebert's column titled "Enough! A Modest Proposal to End the Junk Mail Plague."

I think of the boulder pledge whenever I get one of those recipe chain emails. I can't think of 20 friends to forward one of those to. Yes, I have 20 friends, but not friends who would welcome such an email. So I remember the pledge and hit delete. But I digress...

Warm regards,
Alex

Just as there is a difference between people who have an occasional glass of wine and alcoholics, there is a difference between people who occasionally share a recipe, and people who hoard and dump.

It isn't valid to classify everyone having an occasional glass of wine as an alcoholic, and it isn't valid to call everyone who occasionally shares a clipping a hoarder.

And while I think "ultimate gift of love" is taking it a bit far, the idea is not so far off... it can be done selflessly with nothing behind it but a kind thought for someone, and there is nothing wrong with graciously accepting it from someone who does it that way.

But that's me, and my life; everyone has different parameters and different relationships to deal with. What's nice about these forums is that we learn about other perspectives. Like a clipping that someone gives us, we can fling the perspective back in the face of the giver, which occasionally has a purpose, for example to foster discussion! Or we can quietly accept it... and then do what we want with it.

KarinL

I realize that I should try not to spend too much of my energy trying to control or change other people. That means that for me it takes less energy to open a letter, which contains newspaper clippings, from my MIL and to discard what I don't like or don't have time for, than to stake out my territory. Also as likely, I don't actually feel as strongly negative about it as mary c, so again I'm just not motivated. Agreed, this is some clippings twice a month or so and not a boxful of unwanted stuff. My MIL sees herself as someone that thinks of her family members often and "sees" us in what she reads, or is reminded of our interests , hobbies, places we've been. It's just that in families, if "being yourself" means that you have a lot of "don'ts" for other people, that frequently overlaps with someone else being inhibited in what they see as "being themselves". It can be a real reverse control concept. Or if it's just a few things, they can be an interesting and appreciated (and humorous) part of your individual personality. It's an interesting boundary that is different for each person or family.

Disclaimer: The fact that I realize I should not spend too much energy on control issues does not mean that I am harmoniously floating in the inner circle of peace, however!

Clearly some of you have not dealt with a hoarder.

I understand what you're saying - it's just a clipping, it's just a bit of paper. I should be gracious and accept it.

Well, you don't live with someone incapable of throwing out any clipping from anyone no matter who or how inconsequential.

We have books here warning of the coming financial crisis for 1988 - he can't part with them. He retired 16 years ago and brought home massive amounts of files. They lived in a row behind the sofa for a year, because simply putting them in boxes caused him massive anxiety. They are now boxed up and in a closet, but he still can't let them go. They mean nothing to anyone else, but sending them to a landfill means (TO HIM), it's like his life meant nothing if it can now be dumped. It's not true, of course, and he has 12 patents to his name - some of which make your computers go.

If you don't live with someone who has a tendency to hoard - don't judge. He's not insane, but he does have this need to save.

I do live with one. And if I tell you to quit sending stuff, well stop!

I stand by every single thing I've said. I do need to control my world, and keep my husband from tipping over into the dark side of hoarding.

I'll stand with mary c. And though I don't have any great insights into the psychology of the hoarding phenomenon, unless you've dealt with it in one fashion or another, it is difficult to understand. And extremely easy to just cluck your tongue and say "clean it up and out!"

I have a dear friend back East who was "outed" as a hoarder earlier in the year. Our social circle always knew there was something not quite right, but this was before hoarding had the name and noteriety it has today. Eccentric? Someone who just loved her stuff? Someone who defined herself by what she possessed? Someone who enjoyed living in a house that was like a museum storeroom? We didnt realize the scope of it until it took four of us friends a month to help her pack up to move into an independent living apartment in an over 55 community.

We tried to use the moving as the opportunity to sort and cull, but it was impossible - everything was meaningful, everything had a story. And with a mind like a card catalogue, she would have known if something was missing had we the opportunity to start trash bags.

It was an object lesson to me - decorate and accessorize my home with the things I love, but keep in mind that no one will ever love my junk as much as I do. If I don't deal with things responsibly, someday, somehow someone else will have to deal with stuff and in a way I might not like. Seeing my friend burdened by her possessions (even though they're currently in three large storage lockers) tells me hoarding is a debilitating mindset that rarely can be put right with a shovel and a dumpster.

Mary C, I wasn't offended in the least at your post or your "name calling"..I kinda agree with most of what you say in your threads as well.

I don't think our ideas are at all at odds.

I have a lot of freinds and family members that are clinical hoarders and i know what you are dealing with when you are dealing with a clinical hoarder and how it can destroy families..so I agree with you in that I understand your feelings.

I do however find that in some cases we can actually be helpfully encouraging by helping some people that are clinical hoarders if they do offer things that are of value..and help to remove them to a charity where someone else will be their caretaker and love those items, there are so many "needy" people out there now.

If i am visiting and someone offers me something of value that isn't too large (no pianos or large furniture)..but something i can sit in the trunk or back seat of my car with little effort..and I know it would do them better by not having it in their home..and if i'm going past a charity on my way home..i can just as easily take it with me and drop it to the charity.

will i do this every time..no..often..not necessarily..but should i feel that it will benefit them to not have it and benefit someone else to have it..yes I'll occasionally take their item to pass it on to someone else.

as for clippings..i do discourage them because i know it is costing that person postage..and i'll inevitably throw it away..but if it will hurt their feelings..i'd just rather throw it away myself..as i do with all other junk mail.

"I do however find that in some cases we can actually be helpfully encouraging by helping some people that are clinical hoarders if they do offer things that are of value.."

yeah I have to agree with that. As a recovering hoarder I know first hand how difficult it can be for a hoarder to let go of things, so after agonising and finally deciding "I'll give this away" and then being refused can be a set back. If you know someone who chronically hoards and you have the opportunity to take something off them, do it (unless you are a hoarder yourself) because just getting to that point can be very hard for some people and each time they give something up can be a step closer to getting better. Just my 2c

Plus, we're still talking about different strokes being okay for different folks. Wouldn't be too quick to assume who lives with whom, or not, or who's had to clean out a hoarder-house, or not, because even there, folks react in different ways.

mary c, already I assumed that you process your own mail or gifts because you described stuff being sent to you personally and stuff I assume (again) DH would not be interested so my remarks are about an individual making his or her own choices. It wasn't about whether one choice is better than another or has to be justified. I get stuff given to ME and it isn't taken over by someone else--it's mine to keep or toss. But perhaps instead, or as well, you meant you get stuff delivered to your "household" and then someone grabs onto it and you can't throw it away.

There are many people who reject all "unwanted" or extraneous stuff and maintain very spare spaces because that's how they like to live, not because of hoarder connections. I think it's interesting to allow for individual behaviors that don't have or require an obvious reason for being (though it might be in the back of the brain somewhere) as well as those that are are traceable to specific life situations.

Slateberry -

I'm so glad you posted the Boulder Pledge. When I get email, I often feel guilty about not forwarding things, especially from good friends whose message urges me to. I never forward virus warnings or petitions (useless unless personally signed), but before, I have saved friends' emails for a couple of weeks until they are probably forgotten; then I delete. Now I'll do it imediately, with much less guilt! You can tell I don't get much mail in the first place! Otherwise I'd be inundated.

Thanks for the "Pledge" - gives me a good reminder.

i too refuse to open forwards, i automatically delete them..and am very careful with attachments..even photographs. I occasionally will open a photo...in an email from a relative or friend..but it is very rarely..as i have gotten so many virus and other computer problems from sites that people sent me info from.

so nope..i unapologetically dispose of them immediately.

it can cost a lot of money getting a computer fixed

I find the whole hoarding subject pretty fascinating. That is now that my ex husband is out of my life. while married to him (15 years), I felt as if I was surrounded by trash.. and the collections grew. Everything had a value.. used staples, cafefully removed and piled, newspapers,coins, clothing> I was always trying to encourage him to change, but after a certain point I realised NOTHING was going to change. I simply lost my patience for trying to understand the obsession. I simply got to a point where I really didn't care what was going on in the dark recesses of his mind.. I wanted out of the trash or I was going to suffocate. I can definately appreciate where Mary is coming from. Having to live with a hoarder has many angles... We have to live with their trash, it sometimes appears as their first and only love at the expense of all others. I resent that I stayed in that marriage as long as I did and each day I celebrate that I have a choice to live normally and that my kids got their closet space back!

greenhouse I think it must so difficult to live with a hoarder and even with my own hoarding I knew how frustrated my husband used to get with me.

From my own experience it isnt about the love of things or collections but the real problem is the emotional response that comes with getting rid of things and that's a crucial part of the sickness that needs to be addressed. my husband would try to have a clear out and I would frantically pull things out of the bin and carry them back into the house, it's the only thing that quiets the overwhelming emotions of anxiety and feeling like your world is spinning out of control as you see those things being discarded. It's a bit like an anorexic who wont eat because how they treat food gives them a sense of control over their life, hoarding is very similar in that it's that same sense of control that the hoarder is looking for.

But you are right, nothing will change unless the hoarder acknowledges the problem to themself, and decides that they just dont want to live that way anymore.

trance, i know what you mean, my husband is ocpd and he will go and retreive things as i throw them out too..his parents were such bad hoarders that they actually sold junk from piles in their entire property with paths between, including inside their home..so i'm very familiar with hoarders..

Ron not only is ocpd but has a serious head injury with panic attacks and anxiety disorder..so i have to walk on eggshells around him, and removing things from our house to trash or charities is very difficult..but i do manage to do it..but if it is HIS things i do have to be super careful not to upset his applecart...

some people don't "get it" ..that it is a clinical thing..with a lot ..actually most people that hoard.

just like a lot of people think that fat people "just overeat and don't move"..

honestly it is a bit of bigotry when people can't try to find out and understand people that are different than they are and try to be helpful or at least non judgemental..but it is hard to see beyond the surface a lot of times..

that makes these forums so wonderful..more points are given from more directions than just one..deeper digging.

ronbre you sound really patient with your husband, he is very lucky to have someone like you who realises that it is an illness and how it works. yep a lot of people dont get it, they see the piles of junk and the clutter and think that is the problem and dont understand that all of that stuff is really just a symptom. It sounds like your husband learned to think like a hoarder from his parents from a young age. Do you think one of his parents had ocpd as well?

I reached a point a few years ago where I couldnt take it anymore. I wasnt as bad as some people get with the clutter but I was definitely on my way with every cupboard, drawer, nook overflowing and so I had boxes piling up in rooms to store more stuff and my tiny little house was getting smaller and smaller. I did get help and have come such a long way since then that I still have to pinch myself at how much things have changed. But I still have to keep challenging my thoughts so I dont go back to how things were and even after all this time Im still working on getting rid of the stuff that I collected along the way but there is a lot less than there used to be.

Thanks for your inspiring example, Trance. I keep telling my husband that I will get there too! But the hoarding (and honestly I don't think I'm clinical by any means) is a compensation for something, and until that's addressed, the collecting is more harmless bandaid than some other things, like drugs or alcohol.

Not that I'm considering those, but just to say that if someone around you is hoarding, just forcing them to stop may not lead to the utopia you expect. On the other hand, dealing with the underlying emotional deficit (if you can) might make the hoarding go away effortlessly.

KarinL

"but just to say that if someone around you is hoarding, just forcing them to stop may not lead to the utopia you expect."

Yep that's totally true and often it will just upset the hoarder and make them dig their heels in. Karinl you are going about it in exactly the right way. There is no need to put pressure on yourself or have any time limits on how long it should take to declutter and it is much better to work at a pace you feel comfortable with. Keep telling your husband and yourself "I will get there" and I *am* getting there. It takes as long as it takes :)

Your messages have been interesting. I'll buy things sometimes because I want them and because they're cheap, and then sometimes I give them back to the thrift store that I bought them from because I decide I don't really want it/need it/like it. I mostly collect books. Mostly cookbooks, sometimes self-help books (now I have several books on hoarding & organizing...), books on music, decorating, biographies. I hardly use the recipes but I like looking through the pages. I usually don't read the books, I just like to know they're there. The problem is that I don't really have the space for these things. Plus I chide myself because of the money I spend. I am not buying so many things now because even if I like an item (blouse or book) I tell myself that I have more than I can use now. It's very, very hard for me to part with certain things. In fact, I was thinking that even as a young woman I had hauled around tons of books all the time, taking them out of the library, bringing them to school or work and never reading them. I would hope to read them, but usually did not. I'd go to the library, take out 10 books, haul them around, not read them and bring them back again.

Your thoughts and actions sound very familiar, Cindi!

I have acquired books from either the library or for keeps since childhood too, but when I was young I had the time to read them, and did so - now, I buy them (also a lot of them, mostly 2nd hand) I think in part to compensate for the fact that I haven't got time to read them.

And speaking of books, a friend gave me "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" today. Funnily enough I'd never read this although it has of course become a legend in its 25 years. I opened it tonight and immediately became immersed and read nearly the whole thing (fortunately I had time tonight; my son's appendicitis was LAST week!). It struck me that there is a lot there that might help those of you who live with hoarders, if you haven't read it. I'm going to see if my husband wants to read it... it just might help him deal with me :-) which will help me since the collecting I do doesn't serve either of us. It may even help me help myself....

KarinL

You don't have to make them (or yourself) just stop, but you do need limits! Give yourself a space for "hoarding" if you need it--a closet, a cabinet, or even a whole room. Then keep your limits firm.

I'm with Mary C here, of course. A clipping is no more an ultimate act of love than sending someone food!

>If I were to give my son my set of very expensive dishes that are over 40 years old but in really good condition, I feel I have the right to say to him and his wife that if they decide they don't want it at some point, they should give it to one of their siblings who would appreciate it.

If something is designated "family" in our family, it must first be offered around and then discarded if no one wants it. But you don;t have to hang onto it if you don't want it.

Anyone watch last night's show? I felt especially sorry for Augustine's daughter, Susan, I think her name was. The son had stayed gone for four years without seeing his mom and I think, just tried to distance himself as much as possible from the situation. The daughter had lived with her mother when things were closer to normal in their home. The son? Had no memories of the house ever looking much better than it did as it was being condemned.

Lots of bad/hurt resentment between the two women.

Just ran across this thread. Both my parents (now divorced) are hoarders. So was my MIL - she was even worse. When she died, it took a whole team of us (six people) to go through everything and decide what was valuable. I'm sure we missed stuff; there was just too much. We hired estate sale people to get rid of the rest. I dread when my parents die - my sister kept my mother's condo after my mother had to move to a nursing home - because my sister felt guilty going through my mother's stuff. She is the executor, so I'm staying out of it.

DH and I try to sort through/give away stuff every year to keep it from piling up. I am finally at the point where I can take my (current) magazines to the local hospital and leave them in the waiting room. Junk mail is tossed when it comes in. We got rid of all books except reference books. We buy books at the thrift store, read them, and donate them back.

I agree, though, about keeping things with personal meaning and setting limits. I keep the LAST card that I received from special people, especially elderly relatives. Then, if they pass away, I have kept the card and will likely save it. Small family, so they fit in one momento box that is letter sized.

I have been trying to convince myself that i need to give away clothes that I'm not wearing. Still have a "just in case" snow coat that only wear every three or four years. Does not make sense, and I know it.

My worst area is crafts. I buy craft supplies and then don't get around to using them. Finally made myself stay out of Michael's. I am thinking of donating some of the cardboard boxes etc that I never got around to painting. They take up too much room.

I have a huge stash of fabric from my quilting days. Gave some to a cousin but still have way too much.

Can I sign up for an intervention via internet?

I don't think that it's good for a hoarder to feel comfortable. There's nothing in the world wrong with being uncomfortable while doing something hard. What's wrong is wimping out--deciding not to do something important because it makes you feel bad. As long as you take "it makes me anxious" as an excuse not to do something, you're not going to, well, do something. It's hard for someone to quit and addiction. And that's fine. Acknowledge it--and soldier on.

I've been remodeling my bathroom with every spare moment for the past week, so DH has be "in charge" of the house. I'll post pics when I can, but needless to say, it looks like the site of a war. When I finish here, I'm going to have to take care of that, too. It's going to be ten kinds of misery, but that doesn't mean I don't have to do it. No, I won't get an anxiety attack, but it wouldn't make a difference if I did. It still has to get done.

Hi Everyone ! I just stumbled across this discussion & have found all the points of view very interesting. My Dad had a cousin who was a hoarder. She died in a house fire because she couldn't find her way out. It was very sad. The extended family knew about her situation but they were told by the courts that there was nothing that could legally be done. It's a long, sad story.
Myself: I'm definitely not a hoarder, but I am a saver & recycler. I have rescued many tag sale leftovers & donated them to GW. When I moved, I donated all excess sheets & blankets to a battered women's shelter. etc, etc.
I am the family historian. Personally, I welcome clippings sent to me that relate to family events, such as weddings, deaths, graduations, etc. I welcome e-mails with attached photos. I have excellent virus protection & have NEVER had a problem with those kinds of attachments. My scanner & computer have been real blessings to me as now I no longer need to keep all those bits of paper. I can re-type an article into my word processor & file it. I can borrow & scan photos, birth certificates, diplomas, etc without actually keeping the document. I am in the process of getting all my family history posted on an internet genealogy site. That way, when I'm no longer here, my information will still be available to descendants. I've told my daughters that when I die, they can throw away whatever papers or photos they don't want to keep because it will all be preserved on the internet. I wish I'd had a scanner & computer 35 years ago. I could have saved more of the kids' schoolwork & artwork. Laura

You all may find the link interesting. It contains comments and Q & A with Cynthia Lester, who made the film "My Mother's Garden" about her mother's hoarding disorder.

I've seen the film. The filmmaker and her mother were both present, and the mother still seemed to be in denial about the extent of her problems during the Q & A afterward.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ask

What did everybody think about Monday night's show? I thought that the younger woman of the two hoarders will probably be getting better. She took a courageous stand got rid of almost everything. The other lady? Not so much. She just seemed so "flat-lined" and complacent about things. She didn't seem to be involved in the cleanup at all.

It's interesting to me that so much of the time the hoarding (or the worsening of the habit) so closely follows a divorce or a death.

The seriousness and tragedies of the hoarding problem notwithstanding, I watched Monday's episode and just came away with the feeling the entire program is gratuitous voyeurism. The screen after each commercial break telling us how long there's been no running water, bathroom and kitchen facilities is just further augmented by filming piles of soiled adult diapers and smeared fecal matter, dead rodents, and on and on. Not to mention the ongoing commercial for the big dumpster trucks emblazoned with 1-800-GOT-JUNK.

Rather than an hour of filming garbage, the viewing public might be better served by getting a closer examination of the therapies involved in helping these unfortunate victims. I'm sure the triggers for hoarding are as diverse as the hoarders, but there has to be common threads beyond what this program allows us to be privy to. I'm also sure I'm expecting too much of a television program.

What always strikes me is the sameness of the manifestations of this from person to person. The piles of junk and the filth are remarkably similar. This emphasizes to me the fact that this is an illness with common features.

What really need to be studied are both causes and treatments.

On that discussion I linked to, a few therapists wrote comments that were shockingly unhelpful and self-serving, along the lines of, you need to get the person into therapy and not rush them to clean up their stuff. But sometimes the stuff has to be cleaned up in a hurry to avert dire consequences, such as eviction, threats to health, impact on neighbors, and so on. Probably in the majority of cases the person refuses to get help and doesn't think she or he has a problem. Or even if they are willing, they can't afford therapy. So what then? Is the family to do nothing?

One of the people on that discussion said it would have been easier if her mother had been an alcoholic.

I haven't watched the show, but it sounds more voyeuristic than informative.

"a few therapists wrote comments that were shockingly unhelpful and self-serving, along the lines of, you need to get the person into therapy and not rush them to clean up their stuff. "

I posted a comment above about this. People who dont understand this disorder see the junk and clutter and think that is the problem that needs to be taken care of and it's all done, it is not about the junk. The junk is just a symptom of the disorder which is caused by other issues.

Getting the person in to therapy and not rushing them is exactly how this disorder needs to be treated if it is going to work. The hoarder first needs to understand why they are doing this (for many people they simply will not know- it's just something they do and cant control, it's compulsive behaviour).

Then, to clean up the junk and clutter the hoarder needs to approach it in a way that does not cause them overwhelming anxiety, panic or other out of control emotional responses from the underlying issues. If they feel overwhelmed they can't progress and they will get overwhelmed very easily, it needs to be done at a rate that doesnt overwhelm them so they learn to reprogram their thinking along the way and that can't happen if they get rushed in to it.

Well, as usual it is more that each family may hit upon this problem in different phases and even in different degrees of whether it's entrenched hoarding or disorganization, procrastination, disability. Sure, at one exteme or another it may be easy to recognize or "diagnose" but a family member, say, would still have to explore--is Mom getting demented, is Mom depressed, is Mom in a ditch but able to accept help cleaning up--this might be obvious over time so again, different families are arriving at different points. The "children" who've grown up with a true hoarder may have it all figured out--the adult child who comes to visit after being away for some years or who's watched something gradual, may go through a process of "discernment" before figuring out what is the way to help, or not.

Then, even for hoarders--sure, the idea is, it won't "help" a hoarder start a new life in his or her same home and circumstances to go in and do a clean sweep and say, ta-da, lookee, Mom, you're all cleaned up now. But, if a family is in a situation of having to sell a home or move someone to assisted living, then you aren't going to be saying, we'll get to that after 5 years.

"But, if a family is in a situation of having to sell a home or move someone to assisted living, then you aren't going to be saying, we'll get to that after 5 years."

no there wont always be a choice but the best thing is still to get them in to therapy to help them cope with people going in and cleaning up their stuff, to a hoarder that is like having your world turned upside down.

There are some signs that someone is a clinical hoarder rather than being depressed or disorganised. Things like how they react when you try to get them to throw something they've been keeping out. A clinical hoarder will get visibly upset no matter what the item is. Another clue is someone who collects useless items that obviously have no worth or purpose. You'll see some of these things mentioned in this thread, empty paint cans, staples, garbage etc.

The point I was trying to make is that people often cant see past the "junk" and realise there's actually something much deeper going on that is treatable with proper help and those "shockingly unhelpful and self serving comments" mentioned were actually right on the money.

Of course it's obvious that there's something deeper going on. My point was (and is) that sometimes immediate action needs to be taken for reasons other than simply treating the person.

Also, from what I've read, it's extremely difficult to even get the person to accept that they have a problem, and there's no way to force them to go to therapy. And then, even if they are willing to go, many people in those circumstances don't have the means to pay for treatment. So what then?

So for a therapist to make a blanket statement that anything other than getting the person into therapy should not be done -- well, I do find that unhelpful for anyone who has to deal with the effects of this kind of problem.

If someone was about to jump off a bridge, would you stand there and try to figure out why they were doing it, or would you grab them and pull them back to safety?

"If someone was about to jump off a bridge, would you stand there and try to figure out why they were doing it, or would you grab them and pull them back to safety?"

to use your own example, if you pull someone back from a bridge then what? do you walk away so they can try it again next week? Do you tell yourself you fixed their problem? Pulling them back to safety wont solve the problems that led them to that bridge in the first place . If you have a loved one who is suicidal, or has any other mental disorder, and they need help, you get them help. You dont force them into therapy you encourage them in to it.

Hoarders arent retarded or delusional or crazy, they have a compulsive disorder. Many hoarders are well aware they have a problem and are desperate for help, but they have no idea what they need to get out of the compulsive behaviour and there can also be a lot of shame involved. People will try to help them by taking charge and dealing with the junk but it doesnt work because the junk is not the actual problem and an important part of therapy for a hoarder is learning to get rid of the stuff, facing the anxiety in a controlled way and learning a new thought process as they do it

Of course you don't walk away. Saving the person is the first step; analysis comes later.

But what I'm saying is that in the case of hoarding, many times the stuff is the problem for OTHER PEOPLE -- for family, neighbors, and communities. Often it has triggered a situation in which the hoarder will lose his or her home if it's not cleaned up. When the stuff impinges on health and safety, sometimes this cleaning needs to be done rather quickly. It's unfortunate that this is not the best way to deal with it from the standpoint of the hoarder, but that's the reality of it.

No disagreement with the general sentiments. All are seeing it from various angles.

It is incredibly hard to get someone else "into therapy". That doesn't mean it shouldn't be a goal, but agree with poster above that someone saying glibly, you need to get them into therapy, is not a whole lot more helpful than saying you need to clean up the junk. But yes, trancegemini, it is good to look at as a problem being re-defined, like alcoholism, so you don't just say, stop drinking (or actually you do, and it will work for some drinkers, but a lot of people will need more). So now there's a lot of structured alcohol treatment and public awareness.

So one actually helpful thing that could come of all the sensationalism and publicity would be more concrete information for families about--where help is available; what kinds of therapy or therapists should they look for;a range of options for the range of the problem--some people might do okay in informal support groups and others fit more clearly into mental illness; print materials you might leave with the loved one (oh no, more paper to hoard!); evidence-driven suggestions for what types of approaches make it more likely for a person to seek help (?go with a family member; ? on-line confidential programs as are now being use for other problems like smoking or weight loss). Of course, lots of opportunities for rip-offs of vulnerable people, but still.

some great ideas there frankie and maybe it will lead to better information and options for people. that really is the answer because tv shows will sensationalise it and you'll only see the worst cases for shock value but it doesnt really provide any answers for people who live with it.

I think people really should just approach it the same way they would if it was any other problem and obviously that depends on your relationship with the hoarder. If it's someone you are close to you may have to come right out and talk to them about it. you may have to say "I think you have a problem" and just see what they say.

If you can get them to talk about it will give you a lot of insight into how they really feel about it. If they let you know it's making them miserable and they hate living this way, tell them you will help them, support them, tell them you will find out for them what help is available, go with them if they need you to but focus on them getting proper help.

Obviously Im talking about clinical hoarders here. I think most people are what you would call casual hoarders to varying degrees, everyone has stuff that they dont need or use but can't bear to part with but hoarding to a clinical hoarder is a different thing and has a very big importance in their life so Im not saying every hoarder needs therapy but someone who hoards compulsively will need help.

I actually liked the therapist in the last show, that was about just one woman whose two kids came to help. IF that therapist had time, I think she'd make real progress. She wasn't as weenie, "How do you FEEL about it?" as the others were. She knows how the woman feels--now she's trying to get her back in touch with reality.

Trance, I like your differentiation of clinical vs. casual. I think when saving garbage is involved, that's when things are veering toward the clinical disorder end of the spectrum, and since the OP was saving junk mail, that may be her cue that things are veering off the rails, especially if they are starting to compromise home and family. I think I can say that without denigration, because I have a couple of habits that are on the brink myself, which I have to curb in pretty short order.

Other than the stuff I squirrel away, I am a pretty normal person who achieves normal things, and who has many things quite adequately sorted and organized, like the successful non-hoarders on this forum. So, I'm probably just casual. Maybe the problem is calling it hoarding... maybe we need a new name, like "keepers."

KarinL

I wonder if this is more of a modern disorder? It seems in our society that "stuff" is cheap and easy to get.

What do hoarders do if they are impeded by a lack of money, or are living with someone who just won't put up with piles of junk? Or, if they're in an assisted living place where there may be rules etc.

Discotrish, I think it's a lot *easier* to be a hoarder these days, but somewhere I have a historical account of (I think) an early nineteenth century hoarder.

I do think there's an interesting question in whether we can't "manage" more than a certain amount of stuff. (Kind of like those studies that show we can have only a limited number of items in short term memory.) Maybe we just reach a certain number of posessions and can't meaningfully remember or manage them.

I resent the theory that everyone who hoards is mentally ill, OCD, etc. I simply have too much stuff and not enough storage room. I have lots of hobbies,I love to read magazines, especually about gardening and cooking. I have a lot of clutter. I also have a lot of interests. I am not some pathetic sicko stuck in the past.

Jannie, maybe I missed the posts that you were describing, but I didn't see any that presented that theory. I DO think that people are either collectors, savers, or not. As a child, if I found one pretty rock that looked like the state of Texas (or whatever) I would start looking for ones that looked like the other 49 states! LOL

My DH, at age 55, sometimes says to me, "Maybe I ought to start collecting something!" (as if it's a school assignment! LOL) I told him that if you have to DECIDE to collect, you ain't no collector! LOL

I also know that there are people who have basically no hobbies, hence no need for special equipment/supplies etc., for those things. Some people are sentimental and photos, papers, etc. are important to them. Others look at these things and toss them as clutter. Some folks are middle grounders.

All that being said, I DO think that people who are actual "hard-core" hoarders probably have some mental/emotional issues going on that are, perhaps, manisfested in that type of behavior. Everybody has issues, we just exhibit them in different ways, I guess.

Hoarding and all its exposure in the last few years, especially, is a volatile subject. People's possessions are important to them - no matter what others think of them.

I think all of us on this forum have issues with "stuff" - either how to organize it, what to keep, where to throw it away, etc.

One of the recurring problems I see in these episodes is the interaction with family/friends/relatives that are on site during the two days of 'cleanup'. Frequently they are so angry they can't contain their emotions, and focused on the 'stuff' as the problem. Some of them simply stood there and watched the hoarder try to go through stuff, many times the arms crossed in the classic disapproving body language.

If I were the hoarder, I don't think I'd let them on the scene. I know they think they are 'helping' but having to deal with my own emotions and theirs also would really be hard for me.

Is it only me, how would you react?

Barbara

I agree that it has to be stressful for all concerned - both the hoarder and their family members.

I thought that Dick was going to have a stroke he kept getting so mad and agitated the other night. I thought it said a lot that his cousins were trying to help him. I began to think that if I were them I might just throw up my hands, let him live that way and quit taking his verbal abuse while they were trying to help him.

Love "Hoarders" but it is intended to entertain its' audience (and the audiences viewing pleasure probably comes from different facets of the show). Best part for me is the family and I completely sympathize with them. Disorder or not to see someone you care about living like that must be very painful. Also to see someone choose garbage over their own well being and yours must be a little galling. I loved the daughter two weeks ago who was honest enough to admit that it was very hard to see her mother crying over failing to take care of a teddy bear given the circumstance she was living in and the impact it was having on her grown children. I particularly cherish the other daughter that week who was so very truthful when she said (in tears) I hope people don't think I live like this - how honest. I am not disputing that hoarding is a psychological disorder but so are many addictive behaviors and it is possible to get help and manage your illness. To see grown adults boohooing about their childhoods while living in absolute filth doesn't evoke a lot of sympathy from me but the families break my heart.

I'll always remember the hoarder from the first season who had all the teddy bears, her friends were helping her and she accused one of doing things behind her back. If I had been that friend I would have laid her out, I couldn't believe her nerve. I loved this week when the organizer was actually incredulous when the guy whose family was living outside on the lawn because of a bed bug infestation had the nerve to express concern that the crew might damage the floors that for years had been covered with so much crap they couldn't be seen. Now that was a genuine response I could relate to.

Many of these hoarders are not just choosing things over people they are choosing garbage over their children and spouses. That's a very painful and cruel reality. I'm sorry but abusive spouses and parents often maintain their love for their victims - however the reality is that violence is not an expression of love. Similarly I don't think making your children and spouse live in filth is an expression of love or regard for them.

Anybody else clean up something or throw something away after an episode?

>One of the recurring problems I see in these episodes is the interaction with family/friends/relatives that are on site during the two days of 'cleanup'. Frequently they are so angry they can't contain their emotions, and focused on the 'stuff' as the problem. Some of them simply stood there and watched the hoarder try to go through stuff, many times the arms crossed in the classic disapproving body language.
If I were the hoarder, I don't think I'd let them on the scene. I know they think they are 'helping' but having to deal with my own emotions and theirs also would really be hard for me.

>Is it only me, how would you react?
I wouldn't damage others so much by my hideous selfishness that they would become so imbittered. No, I don't feel sorry for the hoarders in the least--the ONLY one I felt a lick of sympathy for was the man who thought he was going to sell all the scrap metal to help his grandkids.

>I think all of us on this forum have issues with "stuff" - either how to organize it, what to keep, where to throw it away, etc.

I'm just looking for greater efficiency, as I've discovered that small organizational improvements make a big life impact--like moving the vacuum cleaner parts from being crammed in a box the top of the closet to a canvas sack hanging from a hanger, or like moving the hats and gloves from a sack to a hanging shoe organizer. I wouldn't call that an "issue" at all.

>I resent the theory that everyone who hoards is mentally ill, OCD, etc. I simply have too much stuff and not enough storage room. I have lots of hobbies,I love to read magazines, especually about gardening and cooking. I have a lot of clutter. I also have a lot of interests. I am not some pathetic sicko stuck in the past.

If you're living in squalor, something is wrong. It's either supreme slatternliness or an illness or, most often, both. There's a difference between hoarding and moderate mess, just like there's a difference between alcoholism and periodic social drinking. But a habitual drinker has a serious problem if it interferes with life, even if he isn't technically addicted.

In response to caryscott's question, I don't have access to cable TV. I have never seen the "Hoarders" TV show. But the other day, hubby and I helped out an elderly lady at church. We went to her home to help her with her microwave, which had stopped working.

I had always suspected hoarding, because I saw a lot of clutter piled up along the exterior walls whenever we dropped her off at her house.

When we stepped inside for the first time, I realized that it definitely hoarding. There was only a path from one room to the other. In the kitchen, there were piles of clothing and plastic shopping bags mixed with bags of cookies and instant noodles. All horizontal surfaces were covered, except for the sink and the stove. It would have been impossible to stand in front of the stove, or even open the oven door.

Poor lady. She's at the age where I don't think anyone can change her ways.

After seeing her house, I could tell that my hubby, who is already on the decluttering bandwagon, wanted to be absolutely sure we didn't end up like that. He helped me find some more unused stuff and send it to its proper places.