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claire_de_luna

How much help do you give to friends with organizing?

claire_de_luna
16 years ago

I've recently made a new friend, whose house I visited for the first time. She was showing me her pantry, which bothered me as much as it does her. I suggested tweaking a few areas into zones for her kitchen, to eliminate counter clutter for prepping food, and making the area next to the fridge more efficient for breakfast. She was open to my ideas, and her husband seemed to like them too. I would never want her to think it was a reflection on her...um...skills at putting her kitchen together. More, it's just about zoning the room for easier access.

Anyway, I think it's fun, but don't want to butt in. How much help do you find you offer?

Comments (28)

  • talley_sue_nyc
    16 years ago

    well, I'm afraid the friends we visited on our vacation are still talking about me,a nd rolling their eyes and trying not to be insulted.

    We haven't seen them for 6 years. I think they're great fun, I really like them

    They built an addition to their house, and I was using their new bathroom.

    The closet in front of the toilet was open,a nd it was clear that it hadn't been well designed; they had too few shelves spaced TOO FAR APART! (well, you guys know how I feel about that).

    So, I said something about it. I tried to stop myself, honest i did, and I think (though maybe I'm making this up now in hindsight) that I had some opening, bcs I think they said something about that closet, or how they had so little storage even with the addition (which I was oohing and aahing over).

    I said, "I'm giving you an assignment--go get another set of brackets, and another shelf; they'll cut it to size for you at Home Depot, and add a shelf to that closet, Maybe two."

    I think I even dragged the wife in there to show her where she could place them, and how much dead air there was in her closet, and how she could have more stuff in there, and in a more orderly manner.

    Then she said, "today's towels are different sizes than they used to be; they're so large nowadays. They won't fold into a size that fits in that closet."

    So I went in there and took all the towels out and folded them so they'd fit, and took her back in to show her which folds would work on her shelves.

    They're probably still trying not to be insulted.

    They were very nice about it, and seemed to think my idea of more shelves was a good one (and they'd never dealt w/ the closet; their builder put the shelves in, and they just started using them) of course I was nice about it, and tried to play it off as me w/ my organizing obsession/hobby, but.....

    Oh, I hope they're not soured on me.

    I've shown friends at work my closet pics, and they've been asking me to come over. I might, actually--it's fun to mess w/ other people's stuff instead of my own.

    I think if you have an opening, it's not so bad. And of course, if you don't come across too bossy, or know-it-all.....

    ("I'm giving you an assignment.....I actually said that. Her husband looked amused--but mildly interested. I don't *think* they're the sort that insult easily.....;)

  • claire_de_luna
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Oh, Talley Sue...you and me both! I don't want to be bossy, but I do seem to...share...that I've discovered I'm really pretty good at this. I just don't want what's fun for me to be an eyeroller for them!

    I truly don't want people to think that I think they can't get it together. I only want to help!

    When I first saw my house before we bought it, I walked into the (very small) kitchen that had a much too big table in the eating area. The chairs were lined up and squared to the walls on three sides and the pathway. I looked at that, pondered a moment and said, ''May I show you something?'' I pulled the chairs onto the angles so you could actually pull them out and sit, and said ''There. Now you can sit at your table.'' The homeowner stared, and stared some more. I apologized, realizing I was probably out of line and she said, ''No; my eye likes this arrangement better.'' Whew!

    I want to go over and help them rearrange the pantry, but I really don't want to scare them...

  • pinktoes
    16 years ago

    Well, I don't give my friends any help because: (1) I've got enough unsolved problems of my own that I need to be at home working on; and (2) I'm hardly in any position to be holding myself out as an expert to anyone. However, the two of YOU both need to be in the organizing business so you can start getting paid for your obvious skills. That includes writing those books and magazine articles. Then you'll get money, and have clients who are grateful for your assistance.

    In some other areas, where I do have some personal expertise, I have noticed myself giving unsolicited advice. And I'm not always sure it's helpful. So, I am trying to pay attention to someone who said: "Give advice only when someone directly asks you to do so." Boy, have I violated that one!

    Once you guys are both in business you can just hand out your business card if someone asks for advice and say, "Why don't you call me during business hours." And then, you'll be less likely to give advice because after doing it all the time for a living, no one wants to continue on after working hours.

    LOL!!!! I just realized I'm giving you unsolicited ADVICE! Forget what I just said. Sorry for intruding on your personal space that way!

  • talley_sue_nyc
    16 years ago

    LOL, pinktoes!

    I do have an idea for a magazine article--problem is, I work for a magazine publisher, and any mag I try to sell it to (under my own name) is probably a competitor. And my company isn't going to run it.

    I wanted to do a "10 rules for organizing your home" and put in unusual stuff (instead of the normal "get rid of things")--stuff like:
    -add a shelf (bcs most shelving systems have shelves too far apart
    -raise the bottoms of your drawers (bcs too-deep drawers end up jumbled
    -label the parts you SEE
    -hang things on the sides or backs of your bookcases/shelves/counters
    -create drawers, not boxes (no stacking, for one-handed access, even if it means spacing shelves closely and putting a utensil tray between them

  • pinktoes
    16 years ago

    Okay, sue. I'm not sure if I'd be happy with a fictitious name when I go for my 15 minutes of fame. Depends on how much fortune comes with it. No, actually, my dream (and I've succeeded for 60 years so far in realizing it) is to live and die in obscurity. I could not BEAR the paparazzi!

    So, you're in a pickle. Just call yourself George Sand.

    Let's see what Claire de Luna's response is. I've been "suggesting" already that she start that book or business.

  • claire_de_luna
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Hey pinktoes (are they really pink?) I've actually have a couple of things published, and believe me, they don't pay you much for a good idea! Then, the information I supplied with the last one got butchered in such a way I wondered if whomever edited it actually went to college and got a real education. (The pictures were great though.) I was told by the publication that most people don't read the articles anyway, they just want to look at pretty pictures. (I guess that's justification for a poor editing job by someone who couldn't put simple sentences together! They totally messed with what I wrote, then put my name on it.)

    The other thing I've discovered is I may have had my 15 minutes of fame, but no one I knew really cared, least of all my family members! Really. In that case, obscurity looks pretty good. It certainly has less stress connected to it, when you realize how little people really think of you. I almost wish I didn't know this about my family, now that it's happened. Believe me, if it happens in the future, they don't want to know about it.

    I have plenty of ideas, but as I said, the best ones need to be built. I tried to get my sister (who is building a house) to let me design a couple of spaces for her, but she's the oldest, has 12 years on me and doesn't respect me enough to think I might actually be able to help her.

    It's fine with me to hear unsolicited advice from you! I appreciate that you think we could handle working for other people. I probably should go work as an organizer, but what I find is most people don't actually want to commit to cleaning up their own messes. They want someone else to do it. Actually, change works better when people take a little ownership in making those changes for themselves. It also helps if they'll commit a few $ to it as well. Forgive my jaded views...there's usually a reason I think the way I do!

  • pinktoes
    16 years ago

    claire de luna: I hear you about family. I do understand. I've gotten my feelings trounced when family respond mainly to me in terms of my relationship to them. They forget my professional successes and still see me as their child, their kid sister, etc. That's just family. I try to let it roll off my back and confine myself to conversations about food or something innocuous.

    I've wondered how it would be for a profession organizer. I always figured people would sort of dump it on you to actually do the work. They're probably so overwhelmed by the time they call for help that the last thing they want is to be "trained". Sort of like wanting to send your dog AWAY to obedience school to get straightened out, rather than be taught how to train him yourself.

    I will give you one other piece of unsolicited advice, which is similar to what I tried to convince a psychotherapist friend of mine about years ago. She liked doing what was then called "Brief Therapy" which involved assessing the current problem, helping the client develop a solution and supporting them through the implementation of that. Years ago this was quite radical, in opposition to delving into one's childhood and spending 10 years in therapy. It was highly successful and she was wonderful at it.

    Unfortunately, it required a lot of marketing to keep getting new clients all the time. She had a few clients who kept wanting to see her--just for handholding, or a crutch--and she said they needed to be out of therapy. I asked her why she wouldn't give them what they wanted. It didn't hurt them and it sure helped her financially. But it didn't fit her sense of how to do her work and it was boring to her.

    Long-winded way of saying that IF you don't mind doing the work yourself (getting it dumped) and you find clients willing to pay you to do it, then why fight it? If they're totally incurable, all the better. Maybe they'll be good repeat customers--that's the best kind!

    I couldn't do it, even if I had the skills. Messy disorganization is too irritating to me. Just couldn't walk into it over and over. I'd feel like I was gonna come down with it myself!

    Enjoy your hobby.

  • pinktoes
    16 years ago

    claire: the toes are more red actually. Esp. if I've had shoes on. But who wants to say that? I have no idea why I chose that screen name. Just an impulse. I think I was trying to assume an uncharacteristic cheery, lighthearted persona that day. Many times I admire those people who skip happily along on the surface of life. On their girlish little pink toes?? I don't know.

  • talley_sue_nyc
    16 years ago

    rose-colored glasses, pink toes.....

    Optimism is a good thing.

    My reluctance to write an organizing article under a psuedonym is more that, knowing how publishing works, it would make it harder to get additional assignemnts on the topic, except under the pseudonym. I don't figure I'd become a Today show regular or anything, though.

    It's really not about the "15 minutes of fame" in front of family or the rest of the public; it's about proper credit inside my profession, in front of people who might give me other work.

    I hear you on familiar roles. Once, my mom called to tell me she & Dad were spending Easter w/ my big brother. She knew I'd talked of going to visit him around that time of year, and she wondered if I'd want to plan my visit so I'd be there when they were. Then she said, "but maybe you'd rather go on your own, so you can related to one another as grownup siblings, instead of maybe falling into your roles as the children of your parents."

    I have a wise mom.

    Talley Sue

  • claire_de_luna
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    TS, it sounds like your Mom is wise, although I wonder why she opted to go during the time you said you'd like to visit? It sounds like she pre-empted your plans, or she was hoping for some concentrated family time. (Forgive me, I have a suspicious nature, as my own mother usually has ulterior motives she doesn't usually share until much later. I realize however, other people don't operate under the same methods!) I agree with you that optimism is a good thing. As far as publishing under your own name, I also agree it's helpful to be known as yourself. For my contact information, I used my CdL screen name as part of my e-mail address. I think more people (who actually might care about my opinions on things) know me as that anyway, so I tried to cover all the bases. As far as getting published goes, you're absolutely right about receiving credit in your profession. It definitely helps the portfolio.

    pinktoes, I've some some small jobs for people re: landscaping. As I don't have the muscle to do the actual work (which is what they'd much prefer), my service has been more about design/information for the DIY, down to how to amend the soil for the type of plantings they want. What I've found is most people don't actually do the work, so the end result isn't satisfying for me. (It's one more thing I've found out about myself.) I actually get more of a kick out of people who want to learn something while you're working with them, and find empowerment through the process. I don't really want to do the work for them; one of my biggest pet peeves is people who feel so entitled they refuse to engage in the process. Yes, I'm shooting myself in the foot as far as getting business goes, but I'd rather keep my passion for it. It's not an excuse, just an explanation!

  • pinktoes
    16 years ago

    claire: I understand totally. My personal opinion, which I know is contrary to all the wisdom "out there", is that people are generally much happier if they don't turn their passions into a business. What could ruin something more quickly in any of a huge of variety of ways? And I will just cite as evidence the uninvolved nature of ladies of the evening once they turn pro.

  • claire_de_luna
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Ooooohh! Now there's a reference for us all that provides graphic imagery! ;)

  • talley_sue_nyc
    16 years ago

    no, I'd planned for some time vaguely in the spring; she planned very definitely for Easter, and wanted me to know when they'd be there. So I could join them, or avoid them--if she hadn't told me, I might have made *my* plans for Easter (since I wouldn't have thought they'd be going). Her "ulterior" ("alterior"? love that twist) motive was to share the info. I think she'd have loved to see me, but I honestly think she was prompted by the urge to warn me, more than to worm in. She really is pretty sane. In fact, I sometimes think I get my overdeveloped sense of boundaries from her.

    But it was the first time I thought of how easy it is to slip back into family dynamics--much more powerful a force when there are more of you. If it's me and one sibling, we can related as peers; add another sibling or a parent, and bingo--we're kids again.

    I like having my organizing help be a buttinski hobby, too--it's frustrating to have ideas etc., and then have people blow them off.

    (I get really miffed here at the forum, even, when someone says, "how can I store this?" and people offer advice, and they say, "I like how I do it now"--why ask us? It's one thing to say, "well, I have this reason why that won't work in my space," but to say, "thanks, no, I'm not even going to consider it"--I have to restrain myself from being snooty, bcs I feel so strongly about us always being supportive and welcoming here)

    So if I had that sort of client professionally, I think I'd be like Claire, and be SO discouraged and frustrated.

    If I'm butting in, it won't bother me. I can go back to my friend's house in 2 years and see that she doesn't fold her towels sensibly, and her DH never got around to buying another shelf--and it'll me mildly annoying, but hey, I was sticking my nose in, and it's her house.

    But to try to help a client, and have that be all in vain...

    I also much prefer teaching, encouraging, and assisting. Even leading--but if I'm going to lead, I want SOMEONE to follow!

    When people need computer help at work, I always try to teach them how to find the solution to their problem when it happens again, so that they won't need me.

    So, does anybody but me and Claire, and pinktoes but not w/ organizing, stick their noses in other people's business?

    I know Gloria (wasn't it Gloria?) was helping a friend clean out her house--how's that going?

  • susanjn
    16 years ago

    Talley_Sue,

    Giving them an assignment makes them children with you as teacher. I might have had a number of reactions (depending on my mood at the moment) to someone telling me how my towels were folded badly - violated, humiliated, outraged at their presumption, annoyed - none of it good.

    If it were my mother or very good friend telling me this, I'd just take what I could use and leave the rest. It wouldn't really change my feeling about them. But it would make it a whole lot more work to ever have them over again since I'd have to have every cupboard organized or padlocked.

    I also have an area of expertise that can make people feel defensive. I try very hard not to bring it up unless asked.

  • susanjn
    16 years ago

    talley_sue, that came out more harshly than I meant it to. I'm probably just too sensitive about other people's comments about my mess of a home. I'm sorry.

  • mcbird
    16 years ago

    I want so badly to stick my nose in my MIL mess, but know better than to. I actually just don't even go to her house anymore because she's becoming a hoarder. Don't dare say that to her cause her head explodes, but she is. My SIL was over and said she had to help her with an email a few days ago and the woman hasn't deleted an email since 2005! Can you say HOARDER?!? So, I'll just live in my overly organized world and shut up!

  • vegangirl
    16 years ago

    I mostly lurk on the Organizing Forum and learn. I just wanted to comment on Talley Sue advising her friends. I think the reaction depends on the person you are advising and what the advice is about. For instance, I don't appreciate my SIL advising me on cooking because I cook just as well as she does. Unless I ask her something, that is. However, I am not good at landscaping even though I love gardening and want a lovely landscape. This spring we had some landscaper friends visit from out of state. That is what they do for a living. The lady stood and stared out each of my windows for several minutes. I know she was landscaping in her mind and I wanted so badly to ask her for advice and she probably wanted to give it to me! But I've always been embarrased by those people who ask doctors for medical advice and attorneys for legal advice at parties, etc, so I didn't ask. She was probably afraid I would be insulted so she didn't offer any advice. I guess we both missed a good opportunity:-)
    VG

  • talley_sue_nyc
    16 years ago

    VG, you could say, "if you ever want to give me advice, feel free!"

    then you create an opening for her.

    I don't think I'd have mentioned or done anything if my friends hadn't said something about not having enough space, or that she cldn't get the towels to fit.

    but yeah, it probably was obnoxious.

  • Shades_of_idaho
    16 years ago

    Mcbird, My Mom and sister are hoarders too and to make it worse they live TOGETHER!!!!!!!! Well at least they are not messing up two houses. I have tried so hard to get them to see the light or maybe even a part of the floor, counter,bed. Talk about crapalanches.

    I was a clean hoarder, all organized just too much of it, years ago but have reformed to the point I do not want anything around me I am not using. It has taken me years to dump it all too. Layer by layer and I am still at it.

    Mom and sis are the people I talk to most about cleaning and organizing but I also have a few friends that come over and say how nice our house always looks and how they wish their houses were so organized. I have offered to help them. Then when it comes down to it they refuse to do what is needed to make their houses clutter free. I want them to continue to be my friends so I just let it go.

    Being in a cluttery unorganized house puts my brain in high gear. Like the landscaper visiting friend ,mentioned above,I look at the stuff and start organizing it in my mind. LOL

    Chris

  • vegangirl
    16 years ago

    talley sue, I wish I had given her an opening!

  • talley_sue_nyc
    16 years ago

    OK, well, I feel a little bit vindicated:

    My DH got an e-mail from our friend (from the wife)

    > Please tell Talley thanks. Her folding towel in tri-fold style
    > suggestion has made my closets so much better. The towels fit better
    > and they don't tumble off the shelf and hit me in the head as much. I
    > am trying it with the sheets, but queen and double fitted stay puffy,
    > but the tri-fold still works better.

    So maybe I won't write and apologize--that might just make her mind my comments, when she has adjusted to them.

  • claire_de_luna
    Original Author
    16 years ago

    Oh Good! I think you should accept her comments in the same spirit you offered help. Sometimes the simplest things don't even occur to people until their ''systems'' aren't working out. It all turned out well in the end!

  • vegangirl
    16 years ago

    Wonderful!! It's good to have ease of mind :-)

  • quiltglo
    16 years ago

    How much help? None, absolutely none unless asked. I feel like I know my friends well enough that they would ask for help if they wanted it. I helped one friend daily for several months, but I never would have offered without her expressing an interest in trying to make some changes.

    My style is probably a bit different than most. I tend to organize out in the open. Stuff doesn't need to be put away somewhere for me to consider it organized.

    Gloria

  • lobsterbird
    16 years ago

    I had an experience in recent months where I offered to help my friends do some work on their house. After a visit one evening where we discussed dreams they had for their house, I offered to come help them work on a project. They were initially surprised and thought I might be just talking, but I maintained I was serious. We spent a week working on their house and they were really pleased with the results. I'm so happy we did that, because it turns out it was just the thing that inspired them to start working on other projects. And they're really happy and feeling good about it. So, I like to think that being a little pushy can be helpful, but I would only do it if I knew someone very well.

    I've had friends and neighbors over who tell me our place looks nice and how organized I am. They ask if I would help them do this or that, and I tell them I'd be glad to do it and to just call me and make plans. It's come up more than once with some, and I've repeated my willingness to help. But I leave it at that, because it's not my job to make their project a priority.

    This last experience annoyed me. I had someone, more of an acquaintance, ask for help with selecting something for their home. They were at a loss for ideas and asked me what I thought. I made a couple of suggestions, and the person actually responded with "ew". Yes, ew. Not, "I don't think I'd care for that" or something polite in response. I decided I didn't need to knock myself out for "ew".

    Tina

  • sheesh
    16 years ago

    I am very unorganized (disorganized?) and appreciate any suggestions from friends. It seems all I have are very organized friends, and I have always been embarrassed about clutter in my home. Eleven years ago, my son's fiancee said, "It's not that your mom's house is dirty, it's just cluttered!" I was crushed, but we actually have a fine relationship, despite my clutter. Now that they have two kids, she asks me lots of questions like, "How did you ever do it?"

    For me, it's always been a matter of not having enough places to put things. We have a smallish house and raised six kids. My DH is unaware of how to use tools and is generally opposed to work in general, so I don't have shelves or storage places, and he's a worse "sentimental saver" than I am.

    So help me, HELP ME. Advise away! I love suggestions, even if I don't use them. Some assignments (like the towel folding) are great, but I can't use assignments that include shelf building or any kind of tools, even though that is exactly what I need. We have to hire a handyman to do everything around here.

    Sherry

  • lobsterbird
    16 years ago

    Just popped back in here and reread my post. Think I sounded a little more curmudgeonly than I intended. Up too late and needing sleep. Sorry, guys.

  • vegangirl
    16 years ago

    Tina, I don't think so! I have empathy for you. I am a lifestyle/health educator and people often ask me for advice on healthy eating, etc., I give advice and there is always some reason it won't work "for them". So many excuses :-) It's so rewarding to see people ask, and the actually act on advice, whether it be on health or home projects. I think you've hit upon a good thing--actually working hands-on with the person.