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1828 Colonial- Roof Questions (and overall input please)- Pics

IPOdobe
10 years ago

My husband and I are relocating and I have always wanted to live in an old home. I love the charm, character, and history that they have. Not to mention the craftsmanship that goes into them.

We took a look at a house built in 1828 on top of a hill on two acres. The photos simply do not do it justice. It appears to be well taken care of, with updates but still keeping the original character of the home as much as possible. I did notice mostly original windows.

My main concern is with the roof. It looks pretty wavy. I'm sure a home inspector could clear this up, but before I get too deep in negotiations, I want to make sure I am not missing something that could be a major headache.

Slightly visible in the pictures! Opinions?
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/947-Northeast-Ave-Tallmadge-OH-44278/35407359_zpid/

Comments (15)

  • liriodendron
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, first of all that house is not a "Colonial"..

    Because Colonials by defintion, are an early 20th century revival of an older style, and that house is the real deal.

    Given the reputed age, it was most likely a vernacular Federal -edging into the then wildly- popular Greek Revival, or National-style, building when it was first built. It has, alas, lost many of its orginal exterior details since then. And its interior remodeling is enough to make me cry.

    Not that it's not attractive, at least to the modern taste, but it has been blown up and turned into an open plan building, with large openings between rooms. That is completely unlike it would have been orginally. For one thing, you can't heat large spaces like that with fireplaces.

    It does appear to still have some original interior woodwork (fire surrounds, interior woodwork, possibly floors (but NOT including the exposed, unpainted structural woodwork!). Many of the windows are not original to the period, at least in shape, grouping (the group that's all together in the ell, for instance) and trim details.

    And those windows in the place of the "eyebrow " windows. Their oversize-ness may have been driven by fire-egress code, but truly they have gone from the delicate eyebrow of, say, Audrey Hepburn to the crags on the Hulk's face.

    If you have been thinking of owning an intact historic house, this is not one. Unless you are prepared to put some serious money into un-remodeling it.

    The roof doesn't look bad to me. The building is probably a timber-framed one and they are pretty tough. I would not use a typical home inspector, but try to find one with expertise in old buildings.so you are not erroneously alarmed by things which are normal and unremarkable in buildings nearing their second century, but which would hint at imminent catastrophic failure in a 20 year old tract house.

    if you really are interested in owning an old house, and don't choose this one. Spend some time training your eye to recognize what makes one "right" for the period.

    My own old vernacular Greek Revival house, which is 25-30 years younger than this one, has beguiled me for a quarter century. I hope you find a house that can give you as much happiness (and occasionally, consternation) as mine has to me.

    Liriodendron

  • calliope
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This would be about the same era our house was built, also in Ohio. I see nothing about the material of which it is constructed........brick?

  • IPOdobe
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Liriodendron,

    I appreciate the time you took in your response! I definitely have a lot to learn when it comes to old homes and their styles. Is there somewhere I can do additional research that easily spells it out? Forums are tough because there is so much information to wade through.

    I'm still formulating what I want my style to be like. I love old homes and have some passion in preserving a piece of history. I don't expect perfection, nor do I have the budget for it. I also have a very time consuming hobby, along with working full time, so I don't want to renovate a home myself. I want to live somewhere with outstanding craftsmanship, a piece of history (whether it is considered significant or not does not matter to me) and something to care for and cherish for years to come. I also want some modern conveniences- I am a major cook/baker (and food blogger) and need a decent working space for a kitchen. I've experienced disappointment in modern homes by pouring effort into "creating" character to something completely void of it.

    Anyways, long story short- do you think this home can meet those standards? Does it appear to be quality or a total waste of my time? I don't want to move into a money pit and would like to slowly take my time with making it my own- while still preserving a piece of history (even if it isn't perfect.)

    As a fun fact- Clara Driscoll (Tiffany glass designer) grew up in this home.

    @calliope- It isn't brick- it has wood siding.

  • arlosmom
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I had to laugh when I opened your link. I grew up in Tallmadge and was just there last weekend visiting my folks! There are a few old beauties of houses scattered around the city, but they seem (at least to me) to be out of place with what has evolved around them. If I were moving back to the area and wanted a nice old house, Tallmadge wouldn't be my first choice. I don't know how much looking you've done so far, but you might want to look at Cuyahoga Falls, Goodyear Heights (lots of bungalows), Hudson, Highland Square and the west Akron neighborhoods.

    Small world!

  • akamainegrower
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Not sure if i's true of this one, but many houses built in the early 19th century employed horizontal purlins and roofing boards that extended from the peak to the eaves rather than horizontal roofing boards and rafters from peak to eave. The earlier method often gives a wavy look to the roof even though the shingles and everything else are in good shape.

  • IPOdobe
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @arlosmom- Small world is right! I would love to live in those areas you suggested- but from what I've seen so far, there is quite the hefty price tag for a house that meets our requirements there (at least in Hudson, Peninsula.) I will check out the other areas you've suggested! We would like more than a two car garage and need some land (I'm trying to stick with at least an acre.) I have two Dobermans and we don't exactly "fit in" in the suburbs.

    Do you know the Copley area? It seems really nice and a little more country-like with some older homes sprinkled throughout.

    I'm hoping the market just sucks right now because it's November. Our first trip up there was on Saturday and was pretty disappointing. $200k should get us something pretty decent in that area, but what's left on the market for that price now must be the "leftovers." :( We are trying to purchase something with just my husband's salary in mind since I haven't found a job there yet and would rather live well within our means.

    Needless to say, I'm panicking because I'm giving up my career and a house we're in love with in Dublin, Ohio.

    @akamainegrower- So helpful, thank you! If we go this route, I will ask the home inspector to look for that! I had no idea. :)

  • arlosmom
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My suggestions probably aren't going to give you the kind of land you're looking for. Ohio is chock full of charming small towns though. I don't know much about Copley. My perception (which could be way off base) is that a lot of folks in and around Akron see an old house as a negative and over the years have completed a lot of "modernizing" patches on their houses. Some of these are pretty easy to peel away if you want to restore the original beauty.

    An excellent book if you're trying to learn about old house styles and features is A Field Guide to American Houses by Virginia & Lee McAlester.

  • liriodendron
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    How urgent is your need to buy a house?

    Could you move into a rental while you look for something that meets your needs?

    There is a serious misapprehension about old houses that many people get stuck on. It's not an either/or proposition to live in an old house

    Tthere is no need not to have modern conveniences if you want them: this means electricity, running water, central heat, indoor plumbing, etc. You can often re-designate rooms to more modern uses; i.e. small rooms adjacent to bedrooms can become baths and former sitting rooms can become kitchens, for example. In a general way none of this is harmful to old houses, because it is reversible.

    However, what really is unfortunate about many remodeling projects, though, is the relentless desire to turn buildings that were orginally made up of distinct rooms into the vast, trendy, spaces that define the modern open plan house.

    You can see this playing out in the large room in the pictures with the fireplace and the tuructural members exposed by the gaping loss of the partition wall and the four windows in the ell which is a clear - and glaring - example.

    On one hand you have the lovely fireplace, with its (likely orginal) fireplace surround with delicate Federal-edging into Greek Revival period detailing. But by tearing out the wall and exposing the wooden structural pieces you have a jarring style collision. Exposed (and now empty) mortice pockets and rough hand hewn beams while they look old-timey to our eyes were not intended to be seen, ever. Even on very early houses, exposed structural beams (like summer beams or gunstock posts) often had careful dressing, and even carefully made beaded molding profiles. And then there's the bank of windows in the ell. That room is likely a much later addition (late 19th, early 20 or even later) and may even have had that bank of windows when it was orginally erected. But the look of an array of windows like that is not a match with the rest of the now-combined room. And keep this in mind: houses weren't "thick" as they are now in an era where day time light was mainly provided by windows. So while there were often rooms extended backwards in wings, the massing was often only one room wide, or just two rooms wide on either side of a stair hall.

    You don't have to choose against modern functions, but you ought to think twice about any impulse to turn an old house into a facsimile of a modern house that is vaguely styled to look like old houses. In other words, you need to understand that old houses, especially really old houses like this one, were always divided into smaller, distinct spaces. If you want a modern, open-plan house, then buy a modern house and decorate it with details that harken back to former styles.

    As for how you train your eye: well, books like the McAlesters' is good for classifying housing periods. The Midwest has its own set of building traditions, but keep in mind that early settlers to there were likely immigrants from NE and the Mid-Atlantic regions who brought their building traditions with them. At first, of course, they lived in settlement-period houses which were often small and primitive, but as soon as practical they built themselves better housing, an example of that style is this house.

    It may pay to study housing styles of NE and the Mid-Atlantic regions. Do you have access to a public library? I'd start there by borrowing - and sending via inter library loan- as many of the glossy- picture books showing houses from the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Look at the size of the rooms, and study any floor plans.

    If you want to do this I could offer sme suggestions for titles that are especially useful.

    Another (though not with many pictures) excellent resource which every old house owner, including people who are considering buying an old building, should be familar with is the set of Preservation Briefs from the National Park Service. This series of essays is about caring for old buildings, from those of great historical significance (Presidential birthplaces, for example) to just ordinary old houses that are have become extraordinary simply by their survival. (I'll attach a link, below to this series. It will give you a working understanding of the issues surrounding older buildings which will put you light-years ahead of many old house buyers.)

    You do not have to live without modern conveniences; you do not have to spend endless amounts of money on a money pit; you do not have to live in an unaltered museum piece. But you really should think twice about buying an old house and promptly obliterating those distinctive characteristics that make it a cohesive example of an older building. If you want a modern-style open-plan design then, please don't choose one of the remaining old plan houses to impose this on.

    Now, the house example you have linked to has had a good deal of this destructive choice applied to it, already,so in some ways it may be a lost cause. But if you buy it supposing it to be an example that has not been enormously altered, you may be disappointed when you encounter its reality.

    As a starting point, and to begin to learn the vocabularly of old houses, start with reading the Preservation Briefs linked below. There is even one on inspecting old houses and inventoring their conditions, which will help you at the home-inspection stage.

    This house still has a good deal of "character", but has lost a lot of it in its updating. You shouldn't kid your self about that fact. Some of that character may be easily replaced (you could re-erect the partition wall in the fireplace-room, for an example. Or perhaps even compromise in some way to conceal the the newly-exposed structural pieces, and retain the larger room. But things like getting rid of the grossly out-of-proportion eyebrow windows make take a significant amount of money to un-do. (Well, not hundreds of thousands, but maybe up to 5-10 grand to make that change back. And as I alluded to above the size of those windows mave have been driven by modern fire-codes requiring certain amounts of square feet of escape windows in bedrooms. So changing back might require interior changes as well to allow smaller windows to be installed, boosting the tab.)

    See if your local historical society has any pictures of this house, or closely similar ones to see what has been changed.

    There is one other thing I want to point out: Old houses reuire an above-average amount money or time, and sometimes both, from their owners. Their owners get a great sense of personal delight and satisfaction from them. But you can't realistically expect to reap those benefits without also expecting to pay those costs. Perhaps if you have no time, and don't want to make up for that lack of time by investing more money in having someone else do things for you, this is not the right time in your life to own and old house. There is no shame in that.

    Post back if you want a list of books to help you train your eye to see what's old, and what's just styled to look old.

    Liriodenron

    Here is a link that might be useful: Preservation Briefs, Technical Bulletins on caring for old houses

  • IPOdobe
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi Liriodenron,

    Thanks again for your insight! Unfortunately we can't get a rental- mostly because we would lose out on the company relocating my husband to pay for closing costs (both with selling, and buying) and other misc expenses. The latest we will be hitting the housing market hard in early March when hopefully more is available that suits our wants/needs.

    I can tell many online are sensitive about remodeling old homes and that definitely isn't what I had in mind. I don't want to strip a house of its valuable history (and I don't mean monetary value.) However, I do prefer a larger kitchen, and I was thinking if we moved there I would build an island and move a gas range onto that in what now appears to be the eat-in kitchen. Then just eat in another room, which would be a formal dining room- which we are used to doing in our current home anyways.

    The cabinets, counter, sink, faucet, and appliances aren't original anyways- so how horrible would it be for me to update those? This is a serious question but that is my only "gripe" about the house as-is.

    I view it similar, but on a much larger scale, to a well crafted pair of shoes I own. I paid far more for them than most would, but they can be re-soled, have stood the test of time, and are a joy to wear. I take pride in taking care of them and am proud to wear them. Sure, I could go buy a pair of $40 heels, wear them for 6 months and throw them out, but what is the joy in that?

    I guess my main question is if this house could be a better house than other more modern homes we could buy. Would it last for many more years to come, with proper attention and care? Based on what you can see in the photos, is it quality built? Do you see any renovations that would be concerning in regards to quality? I know it's hard to say via the internet, but any bit helps before the inspection process, if we go that route.

    I am also fascinated with old farm houses, but have yet to find one that is quality in our price range. Many of them have a junky feel, lacking proper care.

    And lastly, is there a quick and easy way to explain why original windows are better than replacements? Based on what I've read- older/original windows are quality built, replacement windows are not (only last 10-20 years versus practically eternity) and that the energy savings is only approx 10-15%. Is that accurate? Am I missing anything? I was trying to explain it to my husband last night but there wasn't any easy explanation. I know this is a hot topic so don't think I am going to go throw some replacement windows in!

    I would love some titles of books to check out! I feel like I still need to learn the correct vocabulary so I can properly communicate what I like and how I feel. Thanks for being patient with me!

  • calliope
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Judging from the area, my guess would be that the house you looked at IS an old farmhouse. Why are you assuming those windows are original? Do they still have the wavy, bubbly glass in them?

  • liriodendron
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    IPOdobe,

    I'll post a list of books for you. But first some quick notes in reply to your last post.

    1) As calliope said this is a farmhouse. In 1828 virtually all households except those living in actual cities were working farms because that's how almost all food was produced, and because that's where most people made their living. The book you want to read here is Big House, Little House, Back House, Barn. .

    2) Re Original windows (or even just pre- 20th century replacement of the orginal windows) and energy efficiency. Old windows made with old growth wood can be rehabbed over and over and over. They can be returned to fitting well. Properly done windows will meet the energy efficiency of modern replacements. If you add well fitted wooden storms, you're doing even better. Replacement windows are a foolish choice, and not only for stylistic reasons. The book you want here is Terry Meany's Working Windows and also John Leeke's publications on old windows from his website www.historichomeworks.com See the Windows forum there.

    3) Of course you can tear out those kitchen fittings. They can NOT be original since by definition the orginal kitchen was an unfitted one. No one in 1828 had kitchen cabinets and counters; they hadn't been invented, yet.
    The books you want here are: "The Impecunious House Restorer and A Building History of Northern New England.

    4) Circling back to windows, I'll use my own upstate NY Greek Revival-style farmhouse as an example: It was built before the Civil War, but sometime after the War, the price of glass went down enough, and the then-current owners were feeling flush enough that they replaced most of my 9 over 6 windows with 2 over 2s. There was a desire to to show off with big panes (which previously were too expensive for farmhouses). My glass is lovely to our eyes because it is wavy and bubbly, but it is not the original glass from the original windows.

    I will think today about which of the big, pretty colored picture books on farmhouses will help you train your eye most efficiently. The books I cited above are all about houses and their history and taking care of them, not luscious pictures. Start there, you will enjoy the eye candy all the more. Ignore, for now, that these books are about New England buildings. In 1828 people who went to Ohio, came from New England.

    I am sorry you may have got the impression tha I was suggesting that you couldn't change out the kitchen fittings, or even choose another room to use as the kitchen. Neither would be a problem as long as it didn't involve making major, pretty much irreversible, changes to the structural layout of the building or window placement, proportions and sizes. Using a separate room to eat your meals is highly consistent with 19th c rooms use patterns. For one thing, households like the one that existed in this house would have included domestic workers which probably would have eaten separately from the householder's family.

    Liriodendron

  • IPOdobe
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Calliope- Yes, I would say about 50% of the windows in the house have the wavy/bubbly glass in them. It is lovely to look at!

    Liriodendron- Again, you are such a good resource and I appreciate the information! I will start hunting for these titles online or at my library. I'm relieved that it wouldn't be horribly offensive to make some changes to the kitchen. And it is great to know that a well restored window is better energy efficient-wise than replacement ones!

    Are there any good resources to shop for older homes that are well restored to their original conditions? Or slightly restored? Where do you suggest I find a home inspector that specializes in old homes?

    Here is a "typical" example of what I have found for sale in Ohio- not that I know much, but I feel that too much has been done to ones like these that would compromise the original craftsmanship of the home. Am I totally off? Maybe I am comparing apples to oranges since this home was built 70 years later, but the look/quality and renovations in this one are consistent with most that I find. http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/12277-Pleasant-Home-Rd-Marshallville-OH-44645/51622044_zpid/

  • calliope
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's the thing........it's a charming home with an ample lot and a decent price. Assuming it's structurally sound and assuming you find the way it has been finished off attractive and pleasing, how will it fulfill your needs? Is having it authentically restored even at the top of your list in priority?

    It's extraordinarily difficult to find a home of that age that hasn't been historically altered, and even more difficult to find one renovated to modern living standards yet maintaining authenticity.

    I should expect that the first criteria you would want in a home search would be that the property be structurally sound and that any renovations were done safely and to code and there are no major, expensive fixes you don't know about. Look at how long it's been on the market and how it ranks compared to surrounding property. You know, the usual criteria. Then ask yourself how important it is that it be historically pure and whether you would even like how it looks and functions it if it were.

  • liriodendron
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    One thing to get a handle on is what style you like. I don't particualry like late Victorians like the blue house you posted the link to above.

    But I adore the sparer, bolder Greek Revivals, and I really love the more delicate, finer textured details of Federal-style buildings.

    But the whole post-Civil War range of Moorish, Gothick-y, Shingle- Sticky, Mansard-ish Victorians leaves me utterly cold. So it's not just 'old houses" you should be looking for, but old houses in a period style that makes your heart sing.

    Oddly, before I bought this farm (chosen for the farm part, not particularly for the farmhouse style) I had in my mind's eye a clear picture of what I loved, though I hadn't sorted it out by name or period. But I definitely had a preference so it was doubly lucky that the farm had a farmhouse that I loved.

    For instance: when you look at the house that's the subject of your post: you can see that front facade is a two-bay (room on each side of a centrally-placed door), probably center hall, center chimney, one and a half-story box, below the eaves in the front. The trim surrounding the door (windows apear to have lost their period trim, perhaps because of replacements that were a different size) is linear, and relatively delicate in visual weight, despite the fact that it is complex using many different planes of trim to get that effect. That is typical of the Federal Period style that was a design evolution from the earlier Georgian styling that pre-dates the Revolution (and which predates most Ohio settlement.) But your house, was made in a slightly old-fashioned style (for the construction date) because by 1828 a newer style was beginning to take the country by storm: Greek Revival. GR differs from Federal because it is bolder (and simpler in the case of vernacular buildings). The door surround would have acquired wider, flatter pilasters along the sides and a heavier frieze/ cornice above the door, imitating columns and capitals in a Greek Temple. (Actual round columns are hard to make, but flat versions of them stand in as pilasters.) Pilasters probably would have been added to the corners rising to a wide frieze band (maybe as much as 24 " wide) that ran just under the eaves. The, um, eyebrow windows would have been openings in this frieze, perhaps extending just a bit below. But they would have much smaller and narrower than what's taken their place. They would have been symmetrically placed above the main-floor windows, though much smaller in a strictly balanced, smaller-above-larger way. They were an attempt to light attic space and make it more useful. Modern codes, where that attic space has now become converted to bedrooms, probably drove the insertion of over-sized eyebrow windows, which are creating a sense of top-heaviness to the facade, where orginally it was an orderly, proportional, upward progression of the details. The book that most clearly describes this is: The Old Way of Seeing: How Architecture Lost Its Magic.

    There is no right or wrong choice among old house styles, but unless you're shopping for a working farm like we were, you'll make your search easier if you figure out what you like best among the styles. (If you were looking at 20th century houses, you'd surely not go see, say Tudor Revivals, if you hated the look, would you?) This will also allow you to quickly learn about your preferred style, so you'll be able to "see it" amid any changes that have been made since it was built. And even if you don't think you have a preference, you probably do, but haven't teased it out. For instance, you mentioned that you were seeing "farm houses" but they were all looking a little down at the heels compared to this house. That surprised those of us who immediately recognized that the house you're thinking of is a period farm house. But I think what you were articulating was, perhaps, was a lack of enthusiasm for later-period farmhouses that sprouted up and still exist by the thousands in rural areas. What you may have immediately connected to with this house is its Federal styling, merging into the Greek Revival period. If so, then you may now know what attracts you most strongly within the whole genre of "old houses".

    A simple Google image search on these (and other) old building styles will help you identify what you like best.

    L.

  • IPOdobe
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    L- You have no idea how much this discussion has changed what I think of houses. The old Victorians don't do much for me, and now instead of being someone that just loves old houses, I'm now able to almost narrow down exactly what I do enjoy. I've been looking at photos all afternoon and also understand why the "eyebrows" on the Greek Revival home we are looking at are so offensive to you. It does look silly compared to how it should be. I have plenty of titles to keep me busy. Again, thank you for helping me! I truly appreciate it.

    P.s. A picture of your home? :)