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yinzermama

asbestos removal - is this insane?

yinzermama
15 years ago

There are a couple of asbestos wrapped pipes in the cellar of the house we're working on closing on. I had an asbestos guy come out to look at it and say whether it looked OK, needed to go, whatever.

He said it didn't look like a problem and did not recommend professional removal... but said I could wrap it in duct tape to encapsulate it (which sounds sane enough) or remove it myself by wetting it down and chiseling it into a garbage bag (which seems completely insane to me!)

Is removing it myself really a good idea? It's not a huge amount... maybe 2 lengths of pipe, 2 feet long, right next to each other.

Comments (58)

  • yinzermama
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    great. now i'm too scared to go the tape route. maybe i will just close the door to that room and seal the door with 90 miles of duct tape! We don't really need that room...

  • fandlil
    15 years ago

    We had a house with asbestos insulation around all the steam pipes in the cellar. We never thought about it, way back then in the 70s and 80s. When we put the house up for sale in 1986, we had to spend about $2K for its professional removal according to special standards. If you have not signed on the dotted line for that house, I would ask the seller to have the stuff removed professionally AND TO TEST THE AIR AFTER THE REMOVAL IS COMPLETE, to confirm that no airborne particles are around to cause great harm to your lungs. Even a little bit of that stuff can be harmful years later, especially to children. Since the amount of asbestos in this situation is small, the cost for its professional removal should be modest. Depending on the kind of rapport you have with the seller, you might want to offer to split the cost with them.

  • mightyanvil
    15 years ago

    You hired the wrong guy. Pay a professional to remove it, dispose of it legally, and be done with it. For this small quantity in a separate room it can probably be done with a glove bag. Duct tape is temporary like all tapes. It shouldn't even be used to seal ducts.

  • yinzermama
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    What is a glove bag exactly?

  • mightyanvil
    15 years ago

    It is an enclosure/bag that goes around the asbestos covered pipe and it has arm holes, sleeves, and gloves in it that allow you to work on the asbestos without exposing yourself.

  • katsmah
    15 years ago

    I agree. As long as the asbestos on the pipe is in good condition I wouldn't mess with it. The only time it becomes an issue is at resale because people are needlessly worried. My lawyer talked me into having the sellers remove the asbestos covering the steam pipes in my basement when I bought my house. They were in excellent condition, but I did it anyway because I didn't want to get stuck having to do it when I sell someday. There really was no other reason to do so.

  • davidrr
    15 years ago

    You mentioned that the asbestos insulation is on a 2-ft long section of two pipes. What kind of pipe is it? What is it for? How accessible is it?

    If you really want to remove it yourself, you could seal the asbestos insulation (wrap it well in poly?) and entirely remove and replace the two sections of pipe...insulation and all.

    Of course I don't know the details of your situation, but it may be an easy solution.

  • calliope
    15 years ago

    Did they disclose this on their listing? It's a state law here to disclose this when putting a house up for sale. It's in all the listing contracts, whether you know you have asbestoes or not in your house. If they did, and you signed anyhows, I'd think dealing with it is your problem now. If this is a 'new' discovery, I would surely want the seller to have it abated or remediated.

    Whether it's as dangerous as the laws imply it is or not, just having the "A" word associated with a house is the scarlet letter. What I find in this area is that people do the SEE NO EVIL, HEAR NO EVIL, SPEAK NO EVIL routine with asbestoes. They sort of ignore it, never have it tested, so they can say they 'didn't know' they had it in their homes and pass it along to the purchaser who often takes it, knowing there is some, but is afraid to have the seller deal with it, for fear their dream home won't qualify for a mortgage.

  • brickeyee
    15 years ago

    "Did they disclose this on their listing? It's a state law here to disclose this when putting a house up for sale."

    Another law without any real effect.

    You would have to prove the seller knew the material was asbestos and failed to disclose the fact that a clearly visible item was knowingly asbestos.

    Absent proof that the seller had a lab test performed, and then failed to disclose you will not get anywhere.

  • calliope
    15 years ago

    I agree it's a toothless law, but it's still there. Granted, to be sure it has to be tested, but geesh......a house of a 'certain age' with funny looking white tape on the duct work? You'd have to be born under rock not to even suspect it.

    It's a moot point Brickeyes. She knows it's asbestos and hasn't even closed on it. It's going to be an issue again when/if she sells the house, because she DOES KNOW it's asbestoes, so she can't claim to be ignorant of it. The next prospective buyer may not want it there (who does?) and may not want to pay for having it removed. You know that. So, should she pay to get rid of it, or should the seller? If I were buying a house in this market, I'd let the seller take it out of their profits.

  • brickeyee
    15 years ago

    "It's going to be an issue again when/if she sells the house, because she DOES KNOW it's asbestoes, so she can't claim to be ignorant of it."

    Based on a visual examination?
    She suspects it is asbestos but without testing that is all you have, a suspicion.

    Removing it is it is otherwise intact is just plain old hysteria.
    Even the EPA admitted (after costing schools millions of dollars) that the vast majority of the asbestos that had been removed should have been left alone.

    There are a number of encapsulation methods that will make asbestos pipe lagging perfectly safe without the huge fees required to remove it.

    Got to love the plaintiff's bar.
    They have been making a fortune off asbestos for many years now.

  • calliope
    15 years ago

    And that's why I mentioned it. The litigation attorneys find it so lucrative they troll for 'victims' on television. She had an 'asbestos guy' in. It's back to the 'see no evil' thing I was talking about. It still throws a stigma on the house to have that 'funny looking' stuff on the ducts, and in tort law, they don't have to prove you guilty.......you have to prove yourself innocent. They could say you assumed it was, and still did not disclose it. That's pretty damning.

    I really don't feel like splitting hairs, anyway. What I am getting at is that every time this house is up for sale there is a potential for a buyer to either back out because of suspected asbestos, or demand a test and then demand its removal. I'm just curious as to why a buyer, who hasn't closed on a house isn't doing just that.

  • brickeyee
    15 years ago

    "...they don't have to prove you guilty.......you have to prove yourself innocent."

    Civil law works on preponderance of the evidence.

    You must defend yourself, but they still have to prove a case.

  • cocojambo
    15 years ago

    Well if you remove it one time and get exposed to Asbestos, you will probably develop a bad cough in the coming weeks, but only long term occupational exposure can lead to the development of diseases like asbestosis or mesothelioma lung cancer.

    Here is some information from mesothelioma and asbestos website: http://www.themesotheliomalibrary.com

    The risks for asbestos exposure are not high for everyday people who are exposed to the air, water and the soil of the earth. It is occupational asbestos workers that come into contact with asbestos products on a daily basis that are at high risk of inhaling asbestos fibers. Starting from the 1940s (before World War II) and onwards, millions of American workers have been exposed to Asbestos on the job. These types of jobs include firefighters, automobile workers, drywall removers, demolition workers, insulation workers in the construction & building industry, as well as mining & shipbuilding workers.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Mesothelioma

  • SuzyQ2
    15 years ago

    Don't use duct tape on it. It will peel right off in a few months. My previous owner did just that and it's a pain in the you know what.

    There are companies that make "paints" that are specifically for asbestos encapsulation. TK Coatings makes something called Tuffide & Bindercoat and Childers/Foster makes CP11ViCryl.

    People love to get really riled about this topic. But, in researching my house I did not run across one documented case of asbestos related illness in a homeowner. People in the heating, automotive, shipyard....industries are at risk though.

  • calliope
    15 years ago

    I think that you have a greater chance of getting away without punishment in a criminal case, than you do a civl. In a criminal case, the burden of proof is on the prosecution, and in a civil case, the judgments are based on who has the most credible proof. That's why when an injured party does not see justice done in a criminal case, they often procede with a civil one.....it's easier to win.

    An accused must defend themselves in a civil case, IOW default it if they don't defend themselves. There is nothing built into the law in the way of public defenders or laws to protect their rights, they just automatically are at fault unless they prove themselves innocent.

  • brickeyee
    15 years ago

    A criminal case must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
    It is the states burden to provide the proof.

    Civil cases are decided by a preponderance of the evidence.
    If you fail to defend yourself you WILL loose.

    Civil cases may be "an easier win," but even after winning you then have to collect the judgment awarded.

    There are many people who are 'lawsuit proof' since they have nothing that can be taken.

  • blakk
    12 years ago

    I'll just say this!!
    Most of these people are being overly dramatic and alarmist!!
    I could go into further detail as to why, but I'll probably/most likely be attacked so I'll just say this.
    Talk to someone close to you whom you trust that may refer you to someone else for some better advice....
    Good Luck....

  • dickross
    12 years ago

    This is just a side note: It's not really "duct tape". This type of tape was developed during the Korean war for sealing ammo cans and was called "Duck Tape" because it kept water out. It was never intended or recomended for sealing ducts.
    It is now made by numerous manufacturers and various levels of quality. Some may even be named "duct tape". So maybe it really is "duct tape"??

  • scorpionleather
    11 years ago

    I once sat next to the retired owner of an asbestos abatement company on a long flight. He was being real candid with me, and said that homeowners can easily do the abatement themselves; it's not rocket science, just follow common sense precautions (e.g. wet it first, place in double bags, dispose according to local rules). He said that the dangers of removal are overhyped. The gas lines coming into my house are wrapped with asbestos and it was peeling off. The gas technician sealed it with a plastic tape similar to electrical tape. He didn't wear a space suit while he was doing it.

  • worthy
    11 years ago

    Over the years since this thread was started, the health risks from long term exposure to asbestos have become ever more recognized. The dangers are cumulative and the effects may take decades to appear. By then, they're irreversible, leading to inevitable premature and painful death.

    Even the simple enclosure methods we were once advised to use are considered moderate risk.

    For instance:

    Source: Safe Work Practices for Handling Asbestos (Workman's Compensation Board of B.C.)

  • brickeyee
    11 years ago

    "Over the years since this thread was started, the health risks from long term exposure to asbestos have become ever more recognized. "

    Driven as much by the plaintiffs bar as anything else.

    The entire ceiling of the original main terminal at Dulles International Airport is covered with sprayed on asbestos.
    Closing the airport was NOT an alternative.

    The entire ceiling was sprayed with an acrylic coating to bond down the asbestos, and when the terminal was enlarged (doubled in size actually) safer material was applied to the new work so everything matches.

    The fight over 'single fiber exposure' has never been resolved.

    Like many epidemiological studies, they question never answered is 'What portion of those exposed develop X?

    The answer you DO hear given is "X% of victims did Y."

    Is is hard to asses risk when the data is colored.

  • EthanRozario
    11 years ago

    I had a friend who used liquid rubber to encapsulate his Asbestos roof, I think this was the stuff www.liquidrubber.co.uk

    Here is a link that might be useful: Asbestos Waterproofing

  • toxcrusadr
    10 years ago

    Heck, for a 2-ft. piece of pipe insulation I would buy a glove bag (you can even get them on ebay) and take it out myself. But I'm a DIY'er so YMMV.

    BTW, Duck Tape was called that because it had "cotton duck" fabric embedded in it.

    There is another tape that is shiny aluminum with a very strong sticky adhesive that is used to seal the joints in ducts. I call this duct tape.

  • PRO
    Windows on Washington Ltd
    10 years ago

    Be forewarned, TSI is some of the worst asbestos out there.

    Tread lightly and be prepared for the impact of not properly containing or protecting your own health and the health of your home's occupants.

  • southerncanuck
    10 years ago

    Asbestos exposure is nothing to be trifled with. Exposure to free airborne silica can be as harmful as exposure to asbestos. I wonder when it will be when everyone on a beach is wearing a Comfo-2 respirator? Now that will leave a strange tan mark.

  • toxcrusadr
    9 years ago

    Old thread, but speaking of resipirators, you can get a good quality rubber mask with replaceable cartridges for $25-$50. Get the P100 cartridges for particulates (like asbestos) and charcoal for organic vapors. Then you can wear it for painting, stripping or anything involving solvents. Handy to have around.

    I'm surprised no one brought this up anywhere in this thread. If you're going to do it yourself, simply protect your lungs with a good respirator.

  • SaltiDawg
    9 years ago

    I would think wearing a rubber mask with cartridge would take away some of stripper's appeal.

    Or is just me?

  • LiamBiggs
    9 years ago

    I remember my friend having a problem like this... He chose to encapsulate the asbestos, but he used this rubber coating that you'd usually use on roofs. It worked quite nicely actually! I think this is the website he got the stuff from here, I may be wrong

    Here is a link that might be useful: Liquid Rubber

  • cgrobinson74
    8 years ago

    We just purchased an old house that has two pipes about 10' long wrapped in asbestos. There is a small tear in one place. My architect said that there are three kinds of asbestos and only one is dangerous, and that kind is not what is wrapped around our pipes. He recommended encapsulation but I am really concerned as we have parrots and their respiratory systems are way more sensitive than humans, so I was wondering if I should just have it abated or would that make it worse?

  • kudzu9
    8 years ago

    Some types of asbestos are more dangerous than others, but none of them is safe. Further, even if your architect was right, how does he know what type of asbestos is in your insulation? Aside from the fact that he doesn't sound very well informed, he is correct that the simplest (and cheapest) way to deal with asbestos in good condition is to encapsulate it. Encapsulated asbestos is not going to sneak out and compromise the health of you or your parrots. There are encapsulants that are available to the consumer that can be safely applied if you follow the directions. If you aren't comfortable with doing this yourself, have a licensed, approved professional encapsulate the entire length of the insulation. If you will still worry after it is encapsulated, have a professional remove it, which can be done safely using special techniques and equipment. and without leaving residual contamination.

    Here is a simple guide that will educate you a bit more:


    Homeowners and asbestos

  • cgrobinson74
    8 years ago

    Thank you so much. I will discuss all this with my contractor. I am also worried about the flooring in the kitchen and bathroom. We don't know what is under the ratty carpet. But with the age of the house, I suspect at some time, a vinyl asbestos floor might have been put down.


  • kudzu9
    8 years ago

    A vinyl asbestos floor (tiles or seamless flooring) is typically only an issue if you are going to tear it out. The mere presence of such a floor, if in decent condition, is not a health risk. Oftentimes you can leave it in place by encapsulating it: you put down a new 1/2" subfloor directly over it. This may not work for you if the final new floor gets raised up more than you are happy with, but a strip of transition molding can usually address this. I just persuaded my daughter into putting down a new seamless floor in her kitchen remodel in a situation like yours, instead of the ceramic floor she wanted. The seamless floor didn't effectively add to the height of the floor, but putting in ceramic tile would have raised it too much unless she first hired an asbestos removal company to take out the old asbestos containing floor and the old subfloor. And she reluctantly recognized that would have taken more time and money than it was worth.

  • toxcrusadr
    8 years ago

    Agreed, the fibers in vinyl asbestos tile are encapsulated in plastic so they are only a risk if the material is sawed, sanded, ground down, etc. It's virtually zero risk left in place and undisturbed.

  • Bruce in Northern Virginia
    8 years ago

    I suspect there is asbestos in the VCT tile and/or adhesive in my basement, so I've been investigating alternatives for new floor coverings. I called one asbestos abatement company that told me they would remove our 450 sq ft of tile and adhesive for their $1300 minimum fee, and it would cost $400 additional if we wanted the air tested afterwards. This was more reasonable than I had expected, since I don't think I really need the air test.

    I've also been told that the installers from Home Depot and Lowes will not install sheet vinyl or other coverings over tile that is of an age and type that may contain asbestos. Local installers may be willing to do the job, but not the big box installers.

    Bruce

  • kudzu9
    8 years ago

    I don't know why the big box stores wouldn't install other coverings over VAT if they are not disturbing it. If true, it sounds like some over-reaction on the part of their lawyers. I doubt that you will have any problem finding a professional installer to do this work.

  • Debbie Downer
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Oh fer pete sakes - just get it tested and be done with it. Generally doesn't cost much to do that - only $20 at our state lab. Money well spent - why worry unless you have to. I must have had about 4 or 5 suspicious substances tested over the years in this house and none of them had asbestos. If it ever is asbestos, though, then I will want to know so I can deal with it properly. If its dealt with properly (ie removed or encapsulated) it isn't a problem. If it doesn't exist in your house - isn't a problem.

  • walkthesky
    6 years ago

    If you find asbestos wrapped pipes in the basement, how likely is it that it is behind the wall too?

  • kudzu9
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    walkthesky-

    1. No way of knowing.

    2. Why worry about asbestos-wrapped pipes that are behind the wall?

  • marlem320
    6 years ago

    Our tenement just got sold...the new owner removed asbestos around piping in cellar, which we were ecstatic about (however I have no idea how he removed it)...but we just went down stairs, and there is asbestor wrapped around the piping again....please tell me that this is normal, or doesn't make sense.

  • marlem320
    6 years ago

    So is this a bad thing, I have to go down there twice a week to drain our furnace for our steam radiators

  • marlem320
    6 years ago

    Why do they have to wrap the pipes again?


  • kudzu9
    6 years ago

    marlem-

    Insulating pipes is normal. As SaltiDawg pointed out, it's not clear where he would even get new asbestos-containing insulation. And why would he take off the old asbestos insulation if he was going to replace it with new asbestos insulation?

  • marlem320
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    He did some work in our cellar when they fixed our plumbing in the bathroom...which is probably why they were removed in the first place. Are you saying that it's okay to put the same wrapping that was there before, and how can I be sure that it has no airborn asbestos. I was told that it was illegal to remove by unskilled asbestors workers, and illegal to put it back up. They are severely old and disgusting looking. Are you saying that that is the only type of insulation that goes around pipes? And the asbestos is not in one piece, it appears that it has been cut, because it is in sections. It was all one piece before

  • kudzu9
    6 years ago

    You didn't previously make clear that he put the old insulation back. I'm saying that it's standard to insulate pipes. If he put the old stuff back, and it was asbestos-containing, and it wasn't done properly, then you could bring this to the attention of the local environmental department.

  • marlem320
    6 years ago

    Thank you! I don't know if it was the same insulation but it's almost black , and filthy, and again it's not in one piece, like it's been cut so that's why I am very concerned.

  • kudzu9
    6 years ago

    You can't tell if insulation contains asbestos without lab testing. Just because someone assumes or thinks it is asbestos doesn't make it so. It could simply be black and filthy non-asbestos insulation.

  • SaltiDawg
    6 years ago

    Instead of starting a new thread and coherently describing the situation and posing a question, you piggyback onto a nine year old thread and waste a lot of people's time.

    I'm done here.

  • toxcrusadr
    6 years ago

    Why don't you just ask the landlord how the asbestos was removed. Tell him you just want to make sure the air is safe. Then ask him what he used to re-insulate.

    Some old fiberglass is naturally black to begin with, and some of the paper backings were tar paper, so the fact that it's black does not necessarily mean it's 'filthy'. But I can't see it so I don't know.

    I would not threaten or even mention contacting regulators when you first talk to the landlord. Just smile and play dumb and see what he says.