I think your guess is mostly accurate. On the plus side, the quality of historic windows is far superior to what is available today. But fitting a window is an exacting thing unless you live in San Diego. Did your original windows have weights (probably not by '51), if not, what type of mechanism? What about the trim/stops? I am not saying it can't be done, but you'll first need a lot of research to determine exactly what you need, then a lot of patience to find it, and lastly some skills to install them.

Make friends, even offer a bounty to, the boys that do whole-house window replacements (spawn of Satan that they may be). Give them an idea of what you're looking for and maybe they will call you with a full set.

One issue may be the lead-paint one. I have heard references about rules that don't allow re-selling or re-transfer of lead-coated window sashes. Where I am in NY you can still buy old sashes readily at salvage places, but that may be an issue for you.

I have one window in my first floor that was replaced in the early 20th c with a large picture window. Luckily, I found a pair of sash that exactly match the other ones on that elevation (these are very large, Greek Revival-style sash from before the Civil War). Since it's just one window I will simply make a new framing and jamb and trim to match the others. Doing a whole ouse would be daunting unless you were lucky enough to score not only the sashes but the frames, too.

there are some companies that make new wooden sash, and probably also window frames. Perhaps that's an option for you. Don't buy any with finger-jointed materials, though.

Good luck.

L.

Thanks for the replies. Clarion-I'm not sure what you mean by the caveat about san Diego? I live in L.A., if that matters with regards to the window fittings. Unfortunately, I have no idea what the original windows looked like. They probably weren't remarkable, but they would be an improvement over the ugly ones there now!

Liriodendron-that's a great idea about getting some window bounty hunters. I see lots of houses being flipped and the old windows being torn out little regard.
Lucky you finding that Window! It sounds like it was a great find.

I admit I'm still quite ignorant about all of this-trying to learn. Why is the finger jointing undesirable?

There are tons of salvage places around here selling al manners of peeling, likely lead-based paints. So don't think that would be a hindrance.

By San Diego I meant the mild climate! Not a very big deal if your windows are a little leaky in such a climate

Ah, got it! I don't think we will have to worry too much either. Feeling lucky to be in such a mild climate now after living in new England!

I think its highly unlikely you would ever locate 30 windows - 60 sashes in all - of the size to fit exactly - everything was custom back then so not unusual to find some really goofy odd ball sizes in eighths of an inch. You could though easily get sashes custom made by a woodworker and then have someone put in the glass or learn how to do it. Or maybe you could find a few and then have the rest made to match. I wouldnt bother with weights and ropes either, as much as I love them. Id use the Pullman spring pulleys.

Continued --

As the second stage of the project, we made (and had made) storms and screens for them, and after a winter I can attest that our old single-pane windows plus wooden storms are MUCH warmer and draft-proof than the old vinyl ones ever were.

It takes a lot of time and patience, quality window putty and tools, a lead-safe working cubicle, adequate masks and protection, and a hearty local supply of old window sash, weights & pulleys, but it is SO SO worth it.

You also need to have the luck that the original frames were left intact by the window replacers, and hopefully they used caulk rather than epoxy to affix the new ones. We had one window where the latter was the case, and the trim was almost irreparably destroyed during removal. But even that can be re-carpentered with a little skill.

Free sash from the junkyard:

After my rehab, ready to install:

circuspeanut, your work is a joy to behold.

My wife and I spent the first 3 years of our new Victorian disassembling every sash (150 of them!), stripping, repairing, reassembling, reglazing, re-finishing, re-rigging (ropes/pulleys), and then new storms. The result is beautiful, but I would never have the energy to do that again! 3 years, non-stop. It was awful.

Existing single pane glass is usually allowed to remain with storm windows added but single pane glass replacement sash would not be allowed by code in the northeast nor would most people want the additional cost to heat.

I've seen existing old sash modified to take new double pane glass and the sash weights modified to take the additional weight as well.

I've also seen new wood windows with double pane glass that could not be distinguished from old windows because the counter balance mechanism is hidden in the jamb of the sash. ("concealed balance" from Boston Sash & Millwork). This window is far superior to any window made in the past.

Here is the concealed balance with a parting bead. The sash is single glazed only because it is a historic restoration.

The only way to see the balance mechanism connection is to lower the upper sash all the way down.

Here is a link that might be useful: Boston Sash & Millwork

Renovator8 , I respectfully disagree. Counter balances have long been hidden in the jamb. That's old school, not new.

The quality I speak of is the wood. There is absolutely no comparison to the wood available today with that of the old-growth woods used 75+ years ago. Just take a look at any wood windows from the last, say, 30 years. Not pretty. Mine are 125 years+ and still have another 100 in them. Not possible with today's cultivated timber.

As for double pane and all the gases et al, -also prone to failure. I'll take my single pane and a quality storm any day. Just how many double pane windows do you think will still be in service 100 years from now?

None.

"existing single pane glass is usually allowed to remain with storm windows added but single pane glass replacement sash would not be allowed by code in the northeast.. "

Then I'm glad I'm in the Mid-Atlantic & would never consider asking permission (pulling a permit) as to what strength glass I can use to reglaze my ancient windows. Perhaps new windows are held to this standard but custom repair work or the sale of used sash? Really???

That's news to me as well, antiquesilver, and I live in the far Northeast.

In any case, I can attest that our restored single pane sash, appropriately weatherstripped with copper and mohair or bulb fin, plus a new wooden storm, are noticeably more airtight and warmer than the old vinyl double-glazed windows we threw out. About 9 out of the 15 were partially broken, stuck, fogged up, or completely nonfunctional when we bought the house - previous owner had put them in only 7 years prior.

I will also agree with the quality of most modern wooden sash -- unless you pay a ransom for custom work in mahogany, etc, you are getting softer wood that just won't last in the weather like the sash made of old-growth wood.

Those concealed balances look interesting, Renovator8, but I think I'd prefer a non-proprietary pulley system that's easy to find parts for replacement through the years. I don't mind the look of the sash cord at all (Samson spot cord rocks!), and you can do metal chain in a number of finishes if you prefer.

Wow circuspeanut! What an amazing transformation. Those are just beautiful.

I wouldnt bother with double e glass in my interior sashes and futzing with the weights. You can just have e glass put in the storm windows instead and call it a day - you really can have the best of both worlds, the beauty of the authentic original windows PLUS some insulating value if you need it.

And re Circus Peanut's window makeover - WOW is all I can say!

Clarion, that is truly a labor of love. It does get easier, but not necessarily less tedious, eh?

Thank you all so much for the kind comments. We absolutely adore the "new" windows. They are lovely and incredibly durable, we expect them to last another 100 years.

You can just have e glass put in the storm windows instead and call it a day - you really can have the best of both worlds, the beauty of the authentic original windows PLUS some insulating value if you need it.

This is what we did - used double glass in the new wooden storms. Wonderful solution.

As luck would have it, we're moving this week into a new old house with (wait for it) 24 unrestored windows. That's 48 sash with muntens, plus screens, plus storms. Gulp. This winter's project!

Yes, a true labor of love. No other words for it! Our windows were really bad off. The joints were largely rotted out, so we didn't have a single sash that didn't have to be disassembled, then reassembled using West System

On the positive side, disassembling the sashes made the paint removal a bit easier. I think the glass broke about 40% of the time, despite our best efforts, so all that glass had to be replaced. Fortunately (?) our house had been a boarding house since the 60's and was very abused so that there was little of the original wavy glass left, which would have been heartbreaking to loose.

We had 3 years of window sash everywhere, in all their various stages

The glazing and painting were the real time killers. Plus we went with an out door color and an indoor, which really slowed things down.

We got a great tip early on from a firm here in Providence that specialized in building new replacement sash as exact duplicates for historic windows. We were having a lot of trouble with the glazing compound. It took forever to dry and was difficult to apply and level out. The owner laughed and said "Try a good quality caulk". He said the caulking today is way better than the old glazing compound and he uses caulk exclusively.

Well, he was sure right. Application was far easier, and the weather seal seemed to be far better to us than the glazing. We never looked back. One application of caulking to bed the glass in, then a 2nd on top nicely leveled and beveled with a small scraper.

Once disassembled, we ran the rails and stiles through the planer to get about 50% of the paint off. It's attached to the shop vacuum system, and 10 years later we show no signs of mutation from lead paint.

Then each rail or stile went into the bench vice and a heat gun was used to remove the remaining paint.

Our house is enormous, aproximately 8000 sq ft, and so yes, we really did have around 150 sashes to do. No way in the world we could have afforded to do it any other way.

For those of you with really nicely restored original double hung windows how quiet are they compared to a modern dual pane? I just moved into an old house from ~1914 and the upstairs windows that face the street are in very poor shape. The upper glass must have fell out amd was wind replaced withplexiglass and they dont even seal at the bottom. The wind and noise just come right in. The downstairs has jeld-wen wood sash replacements that look nice. I gotta have a quiet bedroom. Short of moving to the back room of the house what can i do to make the windows really quiet? I have a quote from a window restorer to do them for $1000. He will rebuild them to better than original he said and use brass weather stripping. Only the lower sash has the original wavy glass. Not sure how much jeld-wen sash replacements cost.

Typically with the original older single pane you would pair the window with a storm window. In this instance they are then just as quiet as anything else.

As always, check to see if he has done this work before, and if so, references. Might even have him do 1 window first as a trial. How many windows are we talking about?

His work is recommended by other old house owners in the neighborhood. It is just two large windows in my room that need fixing although i might see if i can get him to seal up the two casement windows in the room for that much. One of the casement windows is missing hardware and they face away from the breeze so i wouldnt open them anyways. If im feeeling up for a challenge i suppose i could remove the window myself and board up the hole while i work on restoring it....

There is just SO much to do since i just bought it. Needs new gutters, repair other gutters, down spouts, drainage, some plumbing work, remove upstairs knob and tube and rewire, clean out old insufficient attic insulation and blow in new insulation. Minor roof work, rebuild the upstairs wrap around porch, remodel the kitchen, turn basement into rental unit....it just wont end!

In my case, the newly restored wooden windows WITH storms installed were noticeably quieter than the newer vinyl dual-panes that preceded them.

If your restorer puts pile weatherstripping on the edges of the sash, too, they will be even smoother, tight and quiet. Hope that helps!

Here is a link that might be useful: mohair, mole-hair, pile weatherstrip

Hello. I realize that this is an old thread. However, I found this conversation regarding using salvage widows to replace newer vinyl ones , to be the only one around on the web.

We recently bought an old 1900 farmhouse in Massachussettes. Sadly, all but three windows in the house have been replaced with white vinyl eye sores. We briefly looked into custom, true divided glass replicas, but the price tag was astronomical. The new plan is to source old salvage windows (New England Demolition and Salvage seems great), and replace a few at a time. Would anyone be willing to share the price tag on their DIY salvage window projects? Willing to share your resources for the how-to of your restoration?

Also, of the three originals left, one window is 6x6 (on side exterior) and the other to are 2 over one (side exterior and kitchen). So I'm also looking for direction on which style to choose. TIA!:)

This is a pic from the zillow ad of the 6 over 6 . We are in the midst of a gut renovation so this is the only pic I have right now. However, the window next to it is 2 over 1.

My old house has its original wavy glass windows with storms. I would never change these for even the best new windows. And vinyl- forgetaboutit - here in Colorado, they turn crispy from the sun. BTW, the studies done on old windows with storms vs new "energy efficient" windows showed that there was no difference in the heat loss/gain. And since my windows are over a 100 years old, I say I have the better deal.

Diane

I'd like to echo the comment by parks_deborahm. I too realize that this is an old thread; however, this thread regarding salvaged widows to replace newer vinyl ones seems
to be the only one on the web. Does anyone have any other resources regarding this topic? Thanks.

Before I read all through this, I'd like to thank you for asking this!!! I have a 1952 Victorian inspired home that has new windows OVER the old windows. I've been looking for any hints on what to do for DAYS. I must rid of those modern windows!!!

I see this is an old thread but I must thank you all here in the the future of 2016. I still think your fantastic info still applies! Thank you thank you thank you! I need to restore those old windows and built or find some storm windows before I can remove the modern ugliness. Again, Thank you!!!

I also notice it is an older thread but the content is very useful. We have purchased a Folk Victorian built in 1897. The windows were replaced with 'lovely' plastic windows (vinyl clad). I found out last week that a neighbour a couple of doors down took away the original windows when the previous owner left them at the curb and they are in the neighbour's shed! I have asked if I can buy them back but he was away on the weekend so I am waiting for him to email me with his answer. Fingers crossed!

Hopefully, he is just storing them for you in the shed in the hopes you, the next owner, would ask for them back.

Paula, that would be quite a find if the neighbor sells them to you. Good luck!

Amazing thread! Great tips. I began salvaging the old double-hungs from our 1913 house we sold to a builder -- he gave me 7 days to get everything out I wanted and was amazed that I pluck so much: all the doors, windows, stair rail, cabinets, even the lovely trim around all the doors and windows. I used them to rebuild a house on our ranch in Texas. Fortunately I had a skilled carpenter who built the house around the salvage material. The next house he built required more windows, which I found through a demolition company who called me whenever they had a house with windows in good condition. Great way to harvest shiplap as well. We're in the process of building again, and this time my "picker" got windows that need work, so I sent them to a carpenter who is framing them so the crew can just slip them in like a store bought. The key is to get the entire window out, in the frame, and don't forget the weights! You'll save a lot of money if you don't have to build the frame and all the mechanisms of the weighted window. My attempts to deal with the vinyl replacment contractors has FAILED -- they simply refuse to take the time to pull the window out in the frame, like the pictures show above, they leave the frame and rip up the sashes as they pull them out. Crazy!!! I offer them good money, too. Fortunately we live in a neighborhood where anything pre-1940 is being bulldozed and replaced by McMansions. That's the best place to hunt.

There is a great website with all sorts of info on how to restore your wooden windows:. historichomeworks.com

The disadvantage of using caulk to glaze your windows (rather than glazing putty) so I'm told, is that you can not get the glass back out without breaking the glass if you need to do repairs down the road. Maybe this isn't a consideration if you have to use new glass anyway, but if you have wavy glass which you wanted to keep, it would be a different issue.

A technique I used to remove the old putty without breaking the glass (I used a heat gun) was to saturate a terry cloth towel with cold water and lay it on the glass while I worked at removing the putty around it. I didn't break one single pane of my beautiful wavy glass.

Here I am, reviving this old thread that as others have said, seems to be the only chatter of it's kind online! I have a 1930 duplex and the prior owners put in vinyl windows without permits. Long story short, we are doing a full interior gut, found that the area around the poorly installed vinyl was rotten, so repaired the studs and placed new vinyls. The city has told me now that my home is in a historic district and I must use wood windows. Yikes. Not only did I already buy and install the vinyl, but now I have to spend many multiples of that amount on wood. I'm still waiting on their final decision but I'm fearing the worst. That being said, is there any way I could use salvage windows? My biggest question is rebuilding a suitable frame since the vinyl and whatever was around them has been demoed at this point. If I found old sashes in the right size, could I build suitable frames? Cost is a major concern for me as none of this was budgeted for my project...would love to hear your thoughts.

The odds of finding sashes in a salvage yard in exact correct size, and in the right quantity are extremely slim since old houses were all built so one-of-a-kind. Except kit houses and perhaps sizes where starting to get more standardized by the 30s so It may be worth looking around to see - maybe call window installers to see if you can get some before they go to the landfill. Al I know is that I looked around for about 10 yrs for one certain size window sash but never found it - just ended up getting one built by a carpenter. You might be able to find someone to knock a bunch out for you but it isnt going to be cheap esp when adding in cost of labor and other materials to put them all together.

Perhaps you could get temporary reprieve from city? vinyl windows typically last only 10 yrs or so... not like forever. Esp. if they approved and gave you a permit for your gut job - why are they coming back now and telling you you have to change it.

Im assuming your prev owner didnt save sashes like some people do - you didnt find any stashed in attic or anywhere?

Yes, it would definitely be a challenge finding the correct sizes. The permitting situation is a bit of a headache, but part of the problem is that I a) didn't realize the old vinyl windows weren't permitted and 2) didn't realize my neighborhood had special requirements. So I went to the city requesting a "like for like" window change and they weren't having it. If I'm lucky they'll let me use vinyl everywhere except the front windows. We will see what they say about that. As for old windows, no sign of them. The historical aspects of the home weren't highly valued by prior owners from what I can tell. Definitely a shame.

Megan Evans, was there any ruling from the historical society?

I was just thinking about this thread when I went to go pick up a piece of window glass for a window I am salvaging.

nice of you to check in! I received one response that was basically the official "no way can we be flexible on this" type of letter which was very discouraging considering I waited a full 30 days for their response. The city planning dept said they'll be raising the issue with their superiors bc there are a few other houses having similar circumstances. They said they'd propose being flexible on material choice since my house is not on the historic registry, nor has it been pointed out as a "potential" historic house. so we'll see. sounds like a there was a shakeup in the people who usually handle the historic stuff at the planning office which could work to my advantage, as the person there before was there for 15+ years. Now there's some new blood which could help. I still think they'll request that I put wood windows back in the front, but ideally they'll let me keep vinyl everywhere else. Very kind of you to check in! I'll report back if I (ever) reach a resolution!

Oh great. Unmatching windows are OK, seriously --??? Nothing says "slum" to me like mismatched windows and doors and stuff.

Unfortunately there are people on these committees who have no design or esthetic sense whatsoever and for whom its all about only politics.