I live in an old 1925 foursquare home that unfortunately has gone through alot of PO renovations.

The space I am inquiring about is our upstairs. We have three bedrooms and a bath. Since we've moved in, (2 years)
we've stripped wallpaper, gutted one bedroom, tore out carpeting and have since refinished all the rooms with fresh paint on the walls, doors and woodwork.

I have old pine floors throughout. I have considered carpet and have decided against it. I had an estimate done and the cost to refinish is less than carpet. I am thrilled because I prefer the natural floors, hands down.

My questions on the floor are this:

How nice do refinished pine floors come out?

Are the endless carpet nails and tackstrip removal extremely apparant?

What kind of filler is used when filling cracks, nail marks, etc..

Our floor installer also told me that he'd use a water based finish. He said that the oils are becoming illegal to use and that the product he uses is professional grade and extremely durable.

Can someone that has had pine floors educate/prepare me for what I am in for and also what to expect?

Thanks so much!!
Dawn

Between the individual boards .....? Those cracks should not be filled as doing so may result in damage as the boards expand and contract over time. Nail holes and carpet tack holes can be filled with matching filler, though the job is extremely tedious to undertake.

I don't belong to the poly finish (neither water nor solvent based) school, especially on pine. Pine is so soft that I don't think it holds up as well as with a penetrating sealer, which not being a surface treament can handle the dings and dents a pine floor gets with more grace. Plus penetrating sealers are easier to touch up and reapply in worn spots.

I would take your floor guy's claim that "oil finishes are illegal" with a grain of salt, and certainly check it before ruling it out. Floor guys like poly.

There are a wide variety of proprietay oil finishes, plus the traditional standby of pure tung oil, which is what I use on my 165 year old wide board pine (not heart) floors where I have any finish at all.

I prep a floor by cleaning it rigorously, and try to avoid sanding as that removes the beautiful patina and color of an older floor. Pine floors freshly sanded and encased in plastic (poly finishes of any kind and sheen) look about as appealing to me as plastic covers on upholstery. I don't mean to be insulting to anyone who has done this to their floors; I know it is the conventional (and popular) solution. However, many people don't realize there are other attractive and serviceable floor finishes.

The one drawback to a tung oil finish is that once you've done it, I don't believe that you can subsequently put poly down. As I understand it, oil that remains in the cracks (and to some extent in the pores of large-pored woods) will interfere with the bond of the poly, even after sanding.

Keep in mind, too, that with the age of your house for secondary rooms, the floors may never have been intended to be seen. Paint, carpet, floor cloths of oil cloth and genuine linoleum may have been the orginal coverings. Plain, pine T&G was the cheap flooring option in those days.

Molly~

Wondering if anyone has used epoxy finish-- since its harder than poly or anything does it resist denting? I had it on maple floors once and it was gorgeous, the floors took on a pinkish gold tone different than the brown of poly.

I think the idea of using oil or penetrating finish on floors is that it gets deeper into the wood fibers than a surface finish like poly, and strengthens the wood and thus may be more resistant to dings and dents?? -- pls. correct me if I'm wrong about that...

Actually you can use poly over oil finishes-- SOME oil finishes that is... there are some which contain wax and other things which would keep the poly from adhering.

Mostly pine floors were meant to have carpet on them, so that's my solution for now-- area rugs in areas which get heavier use.

Well, I had two estimates done from two different guys with really different ideas on refinishing.

The first guy inspected them and thought it better to sand, fill in the nail holes and the cracks on the floors. By cracks, I mean where the boards are not touching eachother. He explained that he'd use a pro-grade water based finish, three coats.

The second guy was alot more thorough. He will sand them down completely so that the wood looks new. He explained that he will counter-sink any nailheads and fill them in. He will leave the cracks alone. He said that if you fill them with filler that over time it will break out of the cracks, due to shrinking and expanding. (I'm in Ohio, with alot of weather variations.)

He uses a poly finish, two coats are a gym floor finish, top coat is a satin to avoid seeing every imperfection in 80 y/o wood.

Total cost for approx. 360 sq.ft. is $1,060.00 including all materials and labor. That includes 3 bedrooms, hallway, 3 steps and a small landing.

So, tell me, anymore input? What do you think you would do? Oh, and does amyone else have cracks between the boards, and if so, how do you keep them clean?

Thanks,

Dawn

Except Id wonder about how aggressive he would be with the sander in attempt to get it looking "like new"... he could take so much off that there wouldnt be any left for future sanding?

I was going thru a bit of angst about my pine porch floors as in some areas there are gaps where there was water damage and in living room it was worn and splintery, and finally I just let it be OK that they're 100 yrs old with dark streaks and deep honey color. Once they're refinished and the beauty of the wood is brought out, with finish put on, all those things which you thought were flaws will just be "character."

My second estimate says he will take the finish off and down to clean wood. I really will have to ask if it will be eligible for future sandings.

I'm wondering too, does anyone have any experience with a "gym floor" finish?

I am just so excited to not have to go with carpeting, I really dreaded the thought of it. I also am not after perfection, I like my old house and all it's little flaws.

What is a usual color of stain used on pine floors?

Thanks again,

Dawn

The finish is amazing, it has hardly worn in all these years, but we do have a rug by the front door. But the one negative to me when we applied it was the noxious fumes. The smell of the finish was really offensive to me and noticeable for quite some time. (Not everyone in the house was bothered by it, but I was in the house all day). Wished we had been able to move out for awhile. I am not sure if the formulations are different now than they were 15 years ago. You might want to check on that.

Fill any large holes, but leave the small stuff and the cracks between the floorboards. Yes, you see a lot of nicks and dings, but what you have is "patina" ... look up the price of "distressed" wood flooring some time. It's not cheap to get a hundred years worth of wear on a new floor.

First of all, I have to agree with Kasha Kat, and respectfully disagree with Bulldinkie. There is a *significant* difference between hard and soft wood flooring materials. Lay parlance may not note the difference, but how the various floor materials respond to finishes and wear *is* considerably different. What works for oak, is not necessarily - or even likely to be - the correct solution for soft pine. (There are some harder, or heart-wood pines, which can be quite hard, though, probably not in a house the age of yours.)

Anyway, you probably have soft pine floors, so you need to work with that.

Please carefully consider the counsel you've gotten here to not have the floor sanded back to "new wood". First of all, you can only do this so many times and then the flooring must be replaced because it becomes too thin. So avoiding it, where possible, is the best from a preservation/ conservation of the building point of view.

The second issue about going down to new wood is that you will be sanding off the patination of the older material. Now, patination may look just like grubby old wood to some people, but many of us really appreciate it, and you'd be surprised how many people pay extra to get distressed replacement flooring to achieve the look/style you're considering paying good money to have sanded off!

A light sanding to get the old finish off can do wonders, while leaving you most of the beauty of well-used floors.

Now, of course, I'm still plumping for you to consider a non-poly (or gym floor) finish and look at some of the more traditional finishes, including a variety of penetrating sealers, etc.

Unfortunately there is no Preservation Bulletin that deals only with floors, but there are several books on caring for and repairing old houses that discuss these issues. I could list some for you if that would help you do some research.

About the cracks between the boards, just leave them empty. The only housekeeping need is a good vacuum cleaner. Filling them will give you problems down the road. I have old pine floors and the cracks are nearly closed now, (NY in Aug.), but by the end of the heating season they will have opened up enough to loose a Bic pen. This is perfectly normal, regular and not a problem. I have friends who had the floor cracks filled in their house. The crack filler material has been pushed out in some areas and the edges of the boards compressed and distorted during the inevitable swell/shrink cycles. (This is a different thing from filling severe dings and old tack holes.)

Our modern eyes admire the smooth shining plane of a floor (a gym floor comes to mind). This is an appropriate flooring look for a modern building, but it's not what was there when your building was created, so trying to achieve it (and you can) is a dubious choice, to my way of thinking. It really depends on the look you're going for: if what you want is the look of an older building remodeled to a modern aesthetic, then opt for the gym floor look. However, if your building would look better to you as a carefully buffed and well-loved older home, then, please, look at other alternatives, as well.

Molly~

My challenge right now is removing tiles from our son's bedroom. It is coming up, slowly and leaving behind a terrible black, sticky gunk. I am being cautious as I can and fortunately the tiles are pliable and not breaking into pieces.

I am pretty certain that I will follow through with the "gym floor" finish. The floor will be topcoated with a satin poly and it also has to be able to withstand 4 very busy kids. I'm not sure how far down the sanding will go, however that is something that I can and will negotiate, especially if we ever intend on another refinish.

You guys are a wealth of knowledge and I am so happy to hear different varieties and techniques on making our homes the place we call home. We may not all agree on which technique is best, but I am sure that we will all agree on the love we feel for our old homes.

Dawn

I'm no expert, but when some friends of mine wanted their 3rd floor to have newly installed prefinished oak hardwood, I undertook the project. After I ripped up all the carpet underlay and 1/4 inch ply, there were some wonderful 5 inch pine t&g planks, full of paint and wax and whatever...they decided they wanted to keep the planking and return the new hardwood...I do have a lot of reno experience, but had never redone floors. There were at least 6 coats of paint, and some sort of waxy top coat...to make a long story short ...that was three years ago, and with a lot of long hours, a few dozen sanding belts, and a matte finish water based topcoat, the floors still look amazing. You say it's the second floor, don't worry too much about dents, chances are you won't be up there with shoes. Do not fill the cracks, as all have said above...bad idea. I am currently renovating my own home(1923), and we are refinishing the pine floors in the three bedrms and halls upstairs. The only thing I do have to do, is produce some "knots" to replace the half dozen that fell out, and I do have two cracks that I will repair, they are quite wide, and I will shape a long pine "sliver" to fit into the crack, glue it in, plane it close to floor height and sand away...hope it works....good luck with your pine refinishing, it's always better to reuse than replace, after all a tree is a terrible thing to waste.......

We used pine wood in the new addition. Same finish. Love it. You have to be the "right" person to appreciate pine for flooring. Its really beautiful when the planks are WIDE! The construction crew was overheard more than once admiring our addition, but could not understand why we did not pull and replace those "old" floors.

As other have said, do not fill the gaps between the floors. If you *really* have to , then wait until winter when they are dry and shrunk, and put hemp in between.

Better yet, just don't do it.

-Sarah

For anyone who has finished these floors I would LOVE to see the pictures!! The bare wood ones I am all for, but the rooms that have been painted seem like a daunting task!

Yes, our flooring is soft. The PO had a roller chair by his desk and when you look at the floor at an angle at that spot you can see the dents left in the floor from his chair.

As our home is 140 yr. young, we only intend to lightly sand as we do not want to remove the patina.

However, in either category, there is a wide range of hardness (and other factors). Softwood hardness overlaps considerably with hardwood, particularly after the wood has aged some. For instance, Douglas fir, technically a softwood, is harder than most hardwoods, with more tensile strength. That is why it is so often used for weight-bearing and spanning in construction. Poplar, a "hardwood", is a very soft wood that is used a lot for decorative elements as it takes to shaping and carving very well-- but never for flooring!

In the Northwest, where I grew up, it is not uncommon to see old houses with good crosscut df flooring you'd almost have to use a jackhammer to dent, they are that hard (I've bent nails using old df boards to build with-- had to predrill). Here in New England, I've lived in houses with old pine flooring whose charming character was only enhanced by the dents and odd cracks accumulated over the years.

My current home has a tiny post & beam core with multiple additions ala New England, and floors that vary from addition to addition, sometimes joined in creative ways. They do show their age, and need some refinishing. I've gotten some good hints here-- thanks. My perspective is that I live in an old house, and if I wanted my floors to look like a new house, I should live in a new house. I love my funky old house and wouldn't do anything to it that would clash with its character.

Dayle Ann

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see pictures of people who have redone with Waterlox!!!! I really think that would work well, but I don't want to go with it without seeing it first--and I'm too chicken to do it myself with my 1 & 3 year olds in the house--we'll have to clear out as it is when the flooring guy starts working no matter what!

Sarah

What is commonly called "Oil-based Varnish" is about half petroleum-derived solvent (mineral spirits) and half synthetic resins (alkyd and/or polyurethane) that have been modified with vegetable and/or plant oils (sunflower, safflower, soybean, etc) that harden by cross-linking (polymerization) when exposed to oxygen in the air. Organic metal salt driers are added to catalyze cross-linking and speed curing. All contain about 45 to 50% solids. They are easily identified by the mineral spirits (petroleum distillates) listed in the ingredients.

The industry & specification names for these products are:
• Solvent-based, oil-modified Alkyd varnish
• Solvent-based, oil-modified Alkyd-Polyurethane varnish
• Solvent-based, oil-modified Polyurethane varnish

Variations on these products are:
• Moisture-cure Urethane Varnish
• Swedish Finish or Acid-cure Urethane Varnish

What is commonly called "Water-based Acrylic or Polyurethane Finish" is about 2/3 water and 1/3 acrylic and/or polyurethane resins in one or two parts and (in order for polyurethane to dissolve in water) glycol ether solvents (ethylene glycol, & propylene glycol are the less toxic ones) and catalysts to promote faster and better chemical curing. Some can be identified by the California health warning on the label. (The danger is from direct skin contact with carcinogens during application)

The industry & specification names for these products are determined by the proportion of Acrylic and Polyurethane content:
• Water-borne, Acrylic finish,
• Water-borne, Acrylic-Polyurethane finish
• Water-borne, Polyurethane-Acrylic finish
• Water-borne, Polyurethane finish

The most durable and water-resistant finishes are oil or water-based Polyurethane, then oil-based Alkyd and then water-based Acrylic. Alkyd has better UV resistance. The oil-based versions have a much higher VOC (volatile organic content) than water-based which are limited in the US but some states have set a lower limit. VOC can be lowered in solvent based finishes but it requires more refining and is more expensive. The water-based polyurethanes are more difficult to apply correctly but dry faster allowing more coats to be applied in given time period making them the favorite finish of many contractors. The higher solids content of oil-based varnishes allow fewer coats than water-based finishes but they are much slower to dry and susceptible to dust. Oil-based polyurethane varnish dries a bit faster than the alkyd version. Some water-based finishes (especially acrylics) provide a more clear and less warm looking finish and are less likely to darken later.
Water-borne polyurethane can raise the grain and cause a stain from a tannin reaction to the high pH level on certain woods like white & red oak, cedar and redwood, so a sanding sealer is often a good idea.
All of the above finishes form a hard surface film and therefore must be sanded or softened chemically in order to be recoated at a later date.

Other more natural looking but less durable wood floor finish possibilities are:
• Wax
• Lacquer
• Shellac
• Natural oils (Linseed & Tung Oil) see website link below

there was no hope of adding an oil finish because they were so distressed and ugly, and sanding was out of the question (would have had to sand off hald the thickness of the board), so I finally decided to PAINT them, Yes, I know that is a dirty word. But I think in this case it was true to the history of the house, since these aren't finish floors. and i am very happy with the results.

You can do this starting at the least obvious end. If this doesn't work, a wet towel left overnight won't help before the finish is ruined.

As for filling in holes/cracks, etc., he only filled in the holes that had been there for previous space heaters. The other "imperfections", ie, chips and gauges, are simply the floor's "character" and would disrespect this old house. He didn't do anything to those. After all, I like old houses because of their history and character.

I like dark wood and the rest of the house's woodwork is dark, so I had him go dark on the floors. Here are some pictures:

Before:

After:

Second room:

I have been reading your posts and there is just so much information!. We have a 1925 foursquare. We have pine floors in some room and carpet in another. We tore up one of the carpets and have found wood in good condition, but they stripped the stain. They did not strip the stain in the corners, so we know the basic color, but due to age the base boards are a darker color. The wood does look alittle dry. What steps do I need to take to revitalize the wood and make it look gorgeous again. How do I take care of the dryness? I found an moisturizing oil by Pledge and then there is Murphy's wood soap. Is either good for an unfinished wood?

Thanks,
Joelyn

We have what we believe to be old cypress floors and have sanded them ourselves. We had to take off quite a bit because some portions of the floor had been painted long ago but they seemed to come out great. As soon as we get some final edge-sanding done, we are going to finish them with Waterlox, as well. In the rest of our house where we have wood floors, the immediately-previous owners of our house put poly down where apparently there had always been an oil-based finish. We have dogs and a kid and they are hard on that plastic-y finish, it is even coming up in some places (perhaps due to the previous oil finish).

Since Waterlox is almost all tung oil, I wonder if you could follow up with a coat of tung oil, should that company go out of business (heaven forbid!)?

The living room floor of my home seems to have either varnish or oil based poly on it. We removed the carpet from this room only 3 months ago and already our 2 dogs have scratched the finish horribly. The waxed floors have been exposed much longer than that and they show virtually no wear from the dogs. With this in mind, I'm leaning towards refinishing with a penetrating finish like Waterlox. Has anyone else used this product on heart pine floors? If so, pictures? Any guidance on sanding and finishes for this type of floor would be appreciated.

Hopefully someone else can give an opinion, this is just my experience. I can honestly say that I am so glad that we ditched the carpet and had our floors done.

Dawn

I intend to do my bedroom next, it is in v.bad condition and I have patched it from all over the house where I have replaced some floors with new pine. So this room has a mixture of painted, waxed and old and new untreated wood. The main problem is the depth of new boards being about 2mm below the others, so I am opting to sand very lightly rather than putting ply packing underneath so I will end up with some boards being proud of the others, this time I have screwed the boards down as I need to be able to lift them for utilities, I will fill screw holes with wood putty later (haven't used this before).
I like dark floors really but because of the tendency to scratch that would make deep scratches stand out more and require more maintenance.
Does anyone know what the dark brown gunk like wax is on old floor boards, I think I would quite like it if it was re applied, it isn't a stain as you can remove it with the sander, although it clogs the sanding paper up terribly.

I bet the "dark brown gunk like wax" is, in fact, wax.

You've probably already laboriously sanded it off, but you can also get wax remover in liquid form that works nicely. Kudos on the hard work you've put in - there's nothing more rewarding than reviving a beautiful old wooden floor.

You can still find modern (and not so modern) floor wax in many varieties today, if you'd like to try it over your danish oil. You might want to invest in an electric floor buffer if you go that option.

The first coat of stain was a very light color called "New Pine" a gel stain from Woodcraft stores. Then, a coat of garnet shellac to seal that. Then a toning/glaze coat of fruitwood stain (you may prefer early american) again in a gel stain, carefully wiped off to get just a hint of color. Finally two more coats of garnet shellac. You can't tell that it's new pine from Home Despot.
Casey

But they mellowed and now they are beautiful and deep and rich. I'll take new pictures and post them later today so you can see how the color has mellowed. My theory is that the sanding exposed wood that wasn't oxydized or exposed to sunlight. With a little time and exposure, they get deeper in color. That's what happens with cherry too, yes?

We used oil-based poly because our floor guy said the resulting color would be richer.

I don't know about yellow pine, but I suspect it will mellow as well.

Good luck.

We're just finishing up an addition where we used heart pine re-milled from old beams as our flooring. Here is our old flooring (in our house for 103 years) butting up against newly milled old wood. I'm expecting the new floor to deepen to the same color as the old:

All have 4 coats of oil based poly.

The only way I found to remove it was to use a heat gun. Very slow work, but it removed the gummy layer.

Heat guns to remove lead paint MUST be used in conjunction with respirators rated to protect against lead fumes. Wash hands thoroghly before injestion of ANYTHING. DO NOT remove respirator while in the room with the lead fumes. LEAVE THE ROOM TO TEAK A BREAK.

AO Saftey sells a respirator rated to protect against lead for about $45.00 retail.

The actual hardness of the wood is not determined by hardwood vs. pine (or softwood).
Douglass fir and heart pine (longleaf pine) are very hard woods.
The finishing process is pretty much the same for the two, with physically softer woods taking a lighter touch with the drum sander.

Strip wood floors rely on all the gaps to absorb the movement, so filling them is almost never appropriate.

If you had a room 10 feet across the grain, it would take 40 strips of 3 inch wide flooring to cover.
If strips expand and contract 1/32 inch (not a very large number for real wood) over the seasons, that is a total change of 1.25 inches.

If you glued all the pieces together that is the allowance you would need to prevent buckling (like a 'floating floor').
By nailing only one edge of tongue and groove flooring (the tongue edge) the pieces are allowed to expand and contract separately.

The spread out movement over the entire width of the floor allow it to maintain a good appearance throughout the year.

We are tremendously happy with the results. Every nail and staple hole can be seen, but we like that. The look isn't for everyone, but we adore them. The kitchen floor will be treated the same way within a few months. We will also use Waterlox on a butcher block counter in the near future.

Before & After Sanding

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamieham/4685412941/sizes/l/in/set-721576 24115228515/

Waterlox results:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamieham/4301441523/in/set-72157624115228 515/

Any thoughts?

I am new here and I am looking for some help. I bought my 1895 Masonic Queen Anne Victorian about 6 months ago. 98% of my home is original. I have been pulling off the carpet hiding my beautiful wood staircase. My question is with the finish on the staircase steps. The floorboards are all in great shape and are the wide planks. They look to have been finished with a paint of sorts and then a varnish type product ontop. Does anyone know what this finish might be? I would like to save teh finish and it only needs to be refinished in a few spots.

Pauline