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Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

Posted by yinzermama (My Page) on
Wed, Jul 30, 08 at 11:06

My husband and I are looking to buy our first home. We've looked at at least 15 houses over the last week but only feel like 2 of them make the short list. One of those I really feel just isn't going to work. The other is a 1938 Craftsman bungalow and it is the only one of the lot that I felt "I love this house!" as soon as I walked in. It reminds me a lot of the 1927 duplex we had out final year in college - just beautiful wood work and all.

Of course... it ain't perfect. :-/

Problems with the house:

Steam heat, so no central air. It's hot and humid here in the summers (SW PA). We've just spent 5 years living in CA with no AC and darn it we want AC!!! I know ducts can be put in - but what sort of cost are we looking at here? There is no attic, since the second floor is made into bedrooms and bathrooms. There is a basement. If you've encountered this problem, what worked for you? The previous owner is leaving 10 window units but I HATE window units and actually want to make disposal of them a condition of sale. (freeon...)

Insulation! We are waiting to hear on what, if any, insulation this house has. I know you can blow insulation in but again there is no attic - can this be done if there is no attic?

Cat pee smell in the basement - going back tonight with a black light to try to locate it. I think if we can find it, we can deal with it.

Windows! The house has the original windows which are SO pretty but I am sure leak heat. We think there are storm windows - do these really help with heating costs? I'd hate to get rid of the original windows but I'd hate to be such an energy waster, too. The dinosaurs aren't coming back!

Any input? I love this house. It has such charm. I always imagined living in an old house - victorian era. We have looked at a few, though, and the realities of a victorian house just don't seem that great to me. Things like no shower, scarey smelly basements, overall too formal a feel to be homey. This place, I feel like we could make it work - but worry I am deluding myself. But it's such a great house. Input?


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

Save your original windows at all cost.
Storms do really help, but you also have to make sure that your windows are sealed properly.
Google "Working Windows" and you'll find a book that is the bible for all things windows.
Good luck


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

Keep the old windows just go over them to make sure they are function properly. Replacement windows are just that ...something you continually replace. The book recommended is a excellent idea.
Yes you can blow in insulation to the sides of the house BUT you will have 2 inch plugs to look at on the siding.
Putting in AC with duct work might be a problem. There are other options like those single room AC units. They are much different than the window units. More expensive but more efficient. I'd be checking them out.


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

I agree with those who suggest keeping the windows. You can insulate them quite easily with Kilian Hardware's spring bronze weather stripping. Cheap and it works. Yes, storm windows do work.

Yes, you can insulate the walls. If the house is brick, you'd do it from the inside. If it's wood or stucco, it can be done from the outside. Be careful about how it'll impact wiring and plumbing in the walls.

Steam heat/radiators/boilers are wonderful for heat. It's even heat, not dry, just plain old comfortable. I wouldn't remove a boiler to add a forced air furnace for central air. There are other options, as carol says, for AC.

Cat smell in basement - the ease of getting rid of it will depend on whether this is a finished basement or not. If finished, you'll probably have to remove carpet.

I'd do a search on oldhouseweb.com for all your questions. They've all been discussed quite a few times over the last few years.


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

Will check out the "working windows" bible. :-) My feeling is definately to keep the windows but I don't want sentiment to get in the way of sense.

The cat pee thing... the basement is finished. You walk down the stairs and you are at the edge of a large carpeted area with a built in entertainment unit at one end. but then behind you it is concrete and for some weird reason to your right (if you turn around) there is a kitchen down there. Counters, pantry space, shelving - maybe a sink? There is a TON of space in this basement. To your left there is laundry room, bathroom... The cat pee smell is in the kitchen corner as far as i can tell - not in the carpet - and I am hypersensitive to cat pee so if it was in the carpet I would probably be able to tell. I am thinking it is either in the wood of the kitchen which is ugly as home made sin anyway and we have no qualms ripping out (it's very 70s, not original to the house) or on the concrete somewhere... I am thinking that we could primer & paint the concrete... or rip out the kitchen... or replace the carpet if needed (which I think I will anyway because it's nice and new but just beige, I'd like something with more color) - I think we can eradicate it. We just need to find it - which is why we are going back with a black light.


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

Sentiment has nothing to do with it.
Keeping your original windows and re-habing them is, in the long run, both less expensive and better for resale value.

I'm in the process of building my own wooden storms to add to the weather tightness of my old home.
One of the things you have to live with in an old home is the fact that it's not new construction and will be a little breezy.


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - what about lead paint?

So a question off in another direction - how do you know if lead paint is a problem? Like I said the house was built in '38 so I am sure lead was used in there at some point. It is not overly painted and peely and the whole thing has been freshly painted, nicely - but still. What's underneath and does it matter? We have a 4 year old boy and 4-month-old twin girls and I don't want them exposed to lead.


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

Well, you've already got lots of opinions about the windows :) but here is another article I came across about insulating the sash weights. And storm windows do make a big difference.

We have been house hunting since March and finally found one (closing Monday), sadly not a bungalow. One of the biggest regrets I have about it is the lack of steam heat/radiator heat. If I had that I would do whatever it took to put in AC without changing that (one of those ductless, low profile systems). Also, a lot of bungalow styles (not sure about yours) were designed for maximum air flow in the summer.

I'm no pro, but if your house is brick, the layers of brick might provide some decent insulation. One of the benefits of the old houses IMHO is that they are NOT air tight. It's worth researching - many people consider it a benefit.

Can't help with the lead paint, it's not a huge concern of ours yet (no kids). I would be surprised if there wasn't lead paint somewhere, at least on the outside. I think you can continue to paint over it to contain it? I'm sure there are ways to deal with it, but I don't know what they are.

Here is a link that might be useful: insulating


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

Don't let your kids chew on the walls is a good start.
Usually, if the lead paint is painted over with latex, there isn't any problems.
The problems with lead paint come from when you try to remove it and get all those lead particles in the air from all the sanding.
We all grew up in houses with lead paint and most of us have had no issues with side effects.


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

This house sounds great. All the projects you mentioned are workable. The lead paint issue can be managed with attention to detail -- cleaning reqularly and not sanding or letting chipped paint hang around. We've had insulation blown in...well worth it. I say go for it...You CAN'T buy that type of character. Great woodwork is worth much of the hassle or remodeling!


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

It likely won't cost you anything to pick up a phone and call a heating and air/conditioning firm and ask them about your options for cooling. I live in S.E. Ohio, so probably share similar weather to S.W. Pennsylvania. I don't use air conditioning at all in my old house, and we have perhaps three to four days a year where it's actually uncomfortable.

There might not be an 'attic' but there is some sort of dead space between the upper floor ceilings and the roof, isn't there? Have you seen any sort of access panel? If you have, then there you go.

Check the utility usage of the previous owners. Most sellers will agree to do that. Look at the heating bill, because that can tell you a lot. If it's high in winter, compared to other houses with the same square footage, expect it to be also hard to cool in summer.

Lead paint? It's your call. If you are that afraid of it, then you should only consider brand new houses and don't buy toys from foreign countries. It can be tested and a test could be built into your purchase contract. If they paint has ever been sanded off and repainted, it could already have been dispersed into the house as dust. You never know.

BTW, we just got our first central heating units in this old house about five years ago. Guess what we went with? LOL. Hot water heat, of course. No way would I put a force air unit in when I had a choice about it.


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AC, paint, pee - and windows!

Laughing at the "don't let your kid chew on the walls" comment! :-) You don't know my son! I don't know how he comes up with the things he thinks to get in to... but glad to know it's probably not a worry unless there is peely, damaged stuff. All the paint looks nice and fresh so it's probably not a problem.

We went to the house last night with a black light. The last owners claimed never to have had a cat but said they did have a dog - an OUTDOOR dog, ha ha. Well that basement carpet lit up like a Christmas tree under the black light and once we knew where to get down and sniff - pee! Dog pee, not cat pee, so I was wrong. I was shocked - the carpet looks great in normal light. I even laid one of the babies on it the first day we were there to look - ewww! My husband and I both thought the smell was in the non-carpeted corner - must be how the air flows in the basement. So we think it will be easy to fix - rip out that carpet and put in something new and fresh. I've never gotten to pick out carpet before. Now I get a house with drop dead gorgeous hardwood floors - AND I get to pick out carpet, too. Score! (Seriously the floors upstairs are so nice - the last owners must have just redone them. They are gleaming and the whole house smells like the first day of school when everything is painted and polished)

Going to meet with an AC guy at the house this morning and get some ideas of cost and options for cooling - if it's not too bad (I think we're thinking a 20k cap?) - I think we're going to make an offer. Noticed last night there is a crawl space above the top floor. Think we'll leave in the radiators as heat but will need to look into covers so the babies don't get burned. We're waiting on bills from the last owners... but we're both in love with this house. Our son loves it, too. Our second choice could just never be made into a place I loved. I think it would also just be a place I made do with.

Going to order the window book as soon as the offer is accepted. We're really bummed that the upstairs windows are all painted - they're white, they're neat, but why did someone cover up all that wood? Other upstairs woodwork is painted, too. We're looking forward to seeing how much of it we can restore but glad that this is not the sort of project that needs to be completed to make the house livable. It's something we can work at over time.

Oooh I hope we get this house!!!


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

Are you certain you have steam heat? 1938 is rather late for a residential steam installation. Perhaps you have hot-water heat instead, in which the radiators do not get nearly as hot as a steam system. Steam radiators generally have one pipe acting as a steam supply and a water return, whereas hot-water systems generally have a hot water inlet pipe on one end of the radiator and a cool water return pipe on the opposite end. I have the original hot-water radiator heat in my 1920 Dutch Colonial Revival, and even at full blast they don't get hot enough to burn someone, but are enough to warm the place. It's safe enough for my 6-month old daughter, too.


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radiators

Hmmm. I never knew there were two different things. I thought radiators meant steam heat - and I got burned badly on a radiator in a school bathroom in 3rd grade which is why they worry me. Did not know about the 1 pipe 2 pipe thing but 2 pipes sounds right. Will have to check - thanks for the lesson!


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

You can lose skin on a steam radiator for sure! Let us know what you have and good luck on your new old house.

Also check out the Old House Web, a lot of great info and people on there.

Here is a link that might be useful: the Old House Web


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

It's also possible that the upstairs window/door trim was always painted. Oftentimes, the builders used "good" wood and stained it in the public areas and lesser quality wood in the private, family only rooms...ie bedrooms and bathroom. Our last house had the most awesome oak downstairs and not so nice wood, which was meant to be painted, in the bedrooms.

Good luck with the a/c guy. Hope he/she knows old homes!


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

Well, it sounds like you really have it in better condition than most of us who take on older homes. As to the steam vs. hot water heat, road runner made a good suggestion. Yes, hot water heat can have old-fashioned radiators. I wish ours did, as the newest versions of radiators really are chintzy in comparison.

It's a wonderful heat, always even all over the house, and steady. Not the "hot flash" type of heat forced air can give you when it drops low enough to kick on the stat. Yes again on the upstairs woodwork sometimes being painted right from the get-go on homes of this age. I have a craftsman bungalow I inherited from my mother in addition to the house in which I live. It was built in the 30s. It has the natural woodwork on both floors. Be aware if you strip it, it may not be the same quality wood you have downstairs. I love this home, it's solid as a rock and built with quality in all respects, including the things you can't see. I live in a very old federal, I love it, but for a nice solidly built feel, and comfort bungalows of this age are hard to beat.


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We're making an offer :-)

AC guy said 11k for everything - unit in the attic, vents in the ceilings. I figure if we shop around we might go lower but we certainly won't have to go higher so it's a go. We're going to get together with our agent and make an offer ASAP and I am so, so worried we won't get this house. It's just so gorgeous... I love it!

We'll be keeping the radiators (yes they are hot water, not steam) but the AC guy said we are probably going to want to consider a new boiler at some point as the one that is in there is from the 1960s. The highest heating bill the last people had was 350 but I have no idea how warm they kept it. Not horrible for this area (I know of people paying 4-500) but a new boiler might help with costs.

Interesting about the cheap wood where no one will see it - I just assumed everything was quality back then. We noticed, though, the banister thingie up the stair way is a little odd looking... looks like not the nicest wood, not smooth, and it's painted. Not sure if it's a replacement or not - it isn't glaringly obvious but I'm a stickler for details and I noticed it. Might need to do some replacement of things to make the place realllllllly sharp... but there's really nothing that needs done to make it inhabitable (other than getting that stinky carpet out which is easy) and that's awesome. We might not have the money to do the AC this year but that's fine with me - I'll sweat for all that's left of summer if we can just have this house.


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

I'd skip the new boiler until it dies. Instead, look to insulation and putting spring bronze weather stripping in the windows. Those 2 things will make a nice dent in heating bills.

Post a picture of the banister thingie when you can...it'll be much easier to get an opinion.

Good luck from this point on!!!


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

Ditto on what patser said. I've heard of boilers much, much older still cranking on. I'm not really aware of any great energy efficiency changes on a boiler system, like on forced air. They are really a pretty straight-forward system. The electricals like relays can go out on you, but that's not a biggie. As long as the unit is safe, I'd not be in a great hurry to replace boilers.


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RE: Craftsman bungalow

Really about the boilers? it seems like there are more and less energy efficient ways to boil a pot of water - match pot size to burner size, use a lid - why wouldn't there be more and less energy efficient boilers?

Is this spring bronze tip in the Working Windows book? Is it easy to do? Planning to get the book and do all we can to make the windows the best they can be.

Question - why would some of the windows have sash chains and others have sash cords? Did people replace one with the other when one broke? Are they any indication of age of window or were both used at the same times? Is either one better than the other? My husband would like to replace them all with chains.

Leaving in an hour or so to make up our offer. Hope we can get "removal of urine soaked rug" to go through. Just thinking about that rug makes me want to wash my hands with Ajax.

Will post picture of stairway if we get the house. Also this weird thing in the fireplace which I assume to be an old gas burning mechanism... wondering if it could possibly be safe to use, how to find out, etc...


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

The energy efficiency decline in hot water systems usually has more to do with build-up in the pipes so that the water flow is impeded, and use of the old air-bleeding systems so that the pipes do not escape their air well. You find more energy efficient changes in forced air units, because they operate differently. The added energy savings come from adding a second heat exchanger for the exhaust air standard models just vent out. This extracts more heat from the air you have already paid to process. You know that is true, as they do not require chimneys, like a standard model does, the air is cool enough to be vented through a smaller pipe in an exterior wall.

A major savings in modern boiler systems is going from a standing pilot light to an electronic ignition on a boiler system. I also have four stations on mine where each stage can operate independently so that if you want parts of the house cooler, you also save on energy that way. The pump only moves hot water to the stations you want heated. I used to work for a furnace company, lol and I have eight furnaces or heating units for my home and greenhouse operation. I buy furnaces like other people buy televisions. I make it a point to really read up on them, because they're a major expenditure for me. My advice is worth what you paid for it, IOW not much. I always suggest you get several opinions from specialists and compare their suggestions.

Yes, the gas piping you see was for a gas grate. My bungalow has that, and it is a vented unit. You will need to consult with a heating expert on how to safely replace a unit like that. They do have them, but the old units would prolly not meet any kind of code now. I wouldn't use one. I do have free-standing gas heaters and fire places here, for supplemental heat or to use before I kick on the central system, but I use modern ventless, because I don't consider our chimneys safe until liners are put in. (200 year old house).

Good luck on your quest to purchase this home. The good news is, unless you are in a hot real estate market, most sellers are motivated to really consider a decent offer. Prices are falling and inventory of used houses is high.


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We got the house!

They accepted our offer! Can't wait till moving day.


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

Congratulations! Now be sure to read the Bungalow Manifesto. My favorite part says, "There is a special place in hell reserved for people who remove wood windows." (I think there is also a spot for those who paint unpainted woodwork.)

Btw, restoring/reproducing the rotting wood windows in our 1929 home has been the most expensive part of the restoration so far. Totally worth it!!

;-)

Francy

Here is a link that might be useful: The Bungalow Manifesto


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

You live in our house pre-renovation! We fell in love with our 1939 expanded bungalow. We love it --- but we had to make our house more comfortable, and I believe that you can keep the aesthetics of your craftsman bungalow and still be comfortable in your house. First, we installed AC our thrid year in the house. We had to use a forced air mini duct system and it cost us about 18,500 to install (two zones). We also installed storm doors, replaced the garage door and replaced the windows (we used simonington) that had not been replaced (you could feel the cold air blow through even with the storm windows on, it really made a difference on how our house heated). We replumbed our hot water system (it was on a coal converted gravity system!) and rewired most of the house...This plus tons of other stuff!!! This year we are adding foam insulation to uninsulated space...Make sure you get a good engineer to go through the house with a fine tooth comb so you can get a handle on the things that need upgrading/replacing. Good luck!!!


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

What is an expanded bungalow?


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RE: expanded bungalows and bathrooms

Whoops - should have googled before replying. Wonder if ours is considered "expanded?" It is HUGE... you enter through a wide sun room (there is no porch) and there are two entry ways - on the left is the dining room and on the right is the living room. Dining room leads into kitchen which leads into a small sunroom or breakfast nook. Living room leads to steps straight ahead and 12X12 bedroom/den/whatever (we're thinking playroom) on the right. Can get into the kitchen to the left. Stairs go up and there are 2 huge bedrooms 12X15 and 2 tiny bedrooms - one will just hold a twin bed and chest of drawers, other might not quite hold that but would be good for an office. Also a full bath upstairs.

Kitchen steps lead down to huge celler which has a couple of little storage rooms off of it and another full bath - probably began as what we call a "pittsburgh toilet" and they added sink/shower later.

House is HUGE! There is also a garage but it is detached - not sure if it is as old as the house. I hear "bungalow" and I don't think "family of 5 would be happy there" but there is tons of space here. (Though it would be nice if the two tiny bedrooms were a little bigger)

Does anyone know what would be period correct to place over the bathroom sink?? There is a huge mirror - 4X4 or 5X5 - there now and someone tried to screw a light fixture on to it and there are cracks running from the light fixture. Some day we will replace it but with what? The mirror is in a wooden frame and MIGHT be original but I don't really know. Any guesses? The tub and floor tile are original, toilet and sink are new.


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

Pictures man, pictures.

Here is a link that might be useful: Oh, and come and join us...


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

Congratulations on getting the house! It sounds lovely. I'm also from SW PA, are you in the 'burgh with yinzer in your screen name? I'm about 45 min NW of Pittsburgh and I know around here July can be brutal without AC.

Our house is 123 years old and has baseboard hot water heat so no duct work for us. We've been getting by with window ac in the bedrooms and a large unit that has ducts going to a window for the downstairs. The first 6 years we got by with fans. Our ceilings are over 9' and with the big maple trees our house stayed pretty cool as long as we kept the windows/doors closed in the day time and opened them up at night. That changed when I got pregnant and we put in a window ac unit in our bedroom and it snowballed from there. Still working on other things until we can afford those mini-high velocity ac units. Our house will need two, one for the upstairs and one for the downstairs. We were quoted $20k for the whole thing. Some day...


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

happy - i'll check out that site. :-)

mom2lilenj - yup i am in the 'burgh. we're also north of the city but not as far out as you are.

why are you going with the mini units over standard ductwork stuff? i am going to get some more estimates/opinions before we go through with the ac but the one guy we had out said he didn't like to use them. but i was too distracted juggling babies to take notes and i can't remember why!


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

yinzermama - Hi, "expanded bungalow" is not an official term -- but it is one that fits our house with three dormers and two extensions (and a third in the works!). Last owners dormered two rooms upstairs, extended the kicthen and added a family room. We are expanding the decaying front porch and adding more bedroom space upstairs. We love the craftsman style and have enlisted an architect who has drawn up plans which we love. Our house sounds "big", but it is not by modern standards -- it is about 2400-2500 sq. ft. and will be 2800-2900 when we are finished.


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

I love questions with easy answers....

1. If you have an opportunity to buy an Arts & Crafts house, do it. You are buying a uniquely American gem. For more information about these houses see
Arts and Crafts Styles: Craftsman, Prairie and Four-Square Houses
.

2. Keep your existing windows if at all possible. There are many good references on the web and in books detailing how to rehabilitate old windows. If you are deterred by the old sash weight balance system, there are a lot of replacement balances, including those that permit the window to tip in for easy cleaning. Blain Window Hardware is your source for all things window.

3. Recent DOE-funded studies show that a properly rehabilitated single glazed window with a storm window is just as energy efficient as a new double-glazed window. For historically correct wood custom made storm windows with sliding screens, check out Spencer Works.

4. Steam or (more likely) hot water radiator heat is the very best kind of heat. There are no drafts such as are created by forced air systems. You be amazed at how little dust you will have in your new house. To add cooling, I suggest a split sytem with one unit for the top floor run through the attic, and one for the bottom floor run through the basement. You can now get condensers (the outside part) that hang on the outside wall. Not the prettiest things, but they work. This dual zoning allows you to separately control cooling on each floor, so you can turn up the cool at night in the bedroom area, and dial it down in the day time. Vice-versa for the living areas on the first floor. This should be in the range of $8,000 or so for a 13 SEER high efficiency system. It's the duct work that adds cost. By splitting the system you keep ducting to a minimum. If space is very right, try a high velocity system with 4" ducts. These can be located nearly anywhere a water pipe can go.

5. To locate cat urine, use a black light. To eliminate cat urine stains and smells, call a cleaning service such as Service Master. These guys have the heavy duty equipment to make sure the job is done right.

Good luck. A house this old is a continuing adventure.


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

It's been a while since we looked into this, but from what I understand, the high velocity system requires smaller ductwork and will be less visually intrusive. Another reason specific to my house is the construction is post and beam, so getting standard sized ductwork around my house would be much more difficult.


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

Congratulations on getting the house. How you do it with infant twins and a 4 year old I don't know! My older son is 3 years older than my twins, and the first couple of years I simply couldn't get anything done.

You will survive the twins, btw. By the time they're 4 years old it doesn't seem to be any more work than any other 2 children. The relationship between them is a beautiful thing. When did you find out you were having twins? Were they full term?


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

hi there
we're also in a bungalow (~1925) in the yinzer zone. we have vinyl windows...not our doing. right now they are all working, but we do have to maintain them. speaking from the all vinyled perspective, they're not the easy solution the POs probably thought they'd be. yes, they keep in heat, now the walls are the part of thehouse that loses heat ;-) we have masonry walls and hot waterradiators. we also have a ducted (regular) AC system with vents upstairs and one to the first floor...so he first floor stays hot. other vents to the first floor would have cost a lot more money and we would have had to use thatductless system. which wemight have been willing to do but none of the HVAC constractors in our area would admit to having installed one...so we stayed with the standard. as you know by now, it's a pretty traditional area and tough to get items that areblithely mentioned here on gardenweb! good luck kren


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

It didn't hit me about the yinzer zone, I replied to you on another site, by the way. I used to live SE of the burgh in Greensburg for about 20 years. My husband isn't a yinz so much as a yunz. Maybe it's a southern burghish dialectic shift????

Here is a link that might be useful: early 20th century decorating


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RE: Craftsman bungalow - are these renovations possible?

We'll be getting some other estimates on the AC situation once we are in the house. Right now things are at a stalemate because of the results of the inspection... needs more work than we anticipated so we are running around getting estimates on all that before re-haggling the price. Plumping problems, electrical problems, chimney problem (deterioration from the 50 year old boiler), and of course the delightful dog pee aroma. (Will be getting servicemaster to chime in on that)

The house inspector was super thorough.

kennebunker - my mother is from Jeannette. :-) the dialect is slightly different... there are slightly different things about Pittsburghers speaking Pittsburghese and "near Pittsburghers" speaking it. Like "worsh" instead of "wash" is supposed to be Pittsburghese but mostly I only hear people from outside the city saying it (like my aunt). But it's all the yinzer zone.

jcin - I don't get much done... which is why we're not looking for a house that needs a ton of work, LOL. i found out there was more than one at 6 weeks... they were born at 35 weeks.


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