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lcdc99

Old Houses, Lead and Young Kids - What should we do?

lcdc99
13 years ago

We're looking for some feedback about our situation.

We live in an historic home, have very young children and have been dealing with lead issues for both of them (despite extensive testing we're not really sure exactly what the source is - windows are all original and this seems to be the main concern). We love our home, thought we would live here for a very long time, approached everything up to this point that way and had many plans to continue restorations.

However, when our second child's levels were double what our first child's were, we came to a screeching halt and put plans on hold. We put it up for sale and started to look for a different home.

We now have a written offer on our home and have another home that we've been negotiating on (10 year old home that is what I would call a "reproduction victorian" - has things our home doesn't have like a masterbath, attached garage, safe quiet neighborhood but the layout is not what we desire and we haven't found anything else that would be a better fit).

All signs point to us moving on and everything is falling into place. Except that we are having a difficult time seeing ourselves living somewhere else. It would be a big change in who we have become and of course it's different and unknown. The few people we talk to are encouraging us to move on mainly because of the lead issue. This is our biggest concern as well. Others are shocked and think we're crazy for selling our property.

Is there any way we can continue to live in the historic home with peace of mind?

If not, how do we readjust our purist, old home love to accept the new home?

Is there anyone who's been in this situation and moved or figured out a way to make their home safe?

Any other feedback would be appreciated.

This has been very emotional for us in so many ways.

Thanks!

Comments (63)

  • theresse
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I had the same thought about the naturopath. If he/she did the testing, re-test elsewhere. Not meaning to be offensive - and I've used homeopathic medicines too - but you need to put your opinions and feelings about them aside and just double-check to be sure.

    What have you done about the attic and stairs?

    What I'm hearing really loudly is that aside from this lead problem (serious as that is), you love your house and neighborhood and don't want to leave. This is so very clear. Also, if the price on your house is that low, that makes it all the worse. Just fix the problem and sell the house that way if you really feel you should leave! That way you can advertise the lead-removal you've had done and also that all other tests came back fine so you won't lose so much $ on the house. You'll get your money back from the cost of lead-removal just by getting so much for your house! You already know the outside is safe and that's the most expensive part isn't it?

    You know it's the windows, they told you so. And you don't yet know if it's in the water. Test the water/plumbing, then you're done unless you've forgotten some important part to test. You're so lucky the outside is taken care of! :)

    Thoughts about your not selling:

    Are you able to afford to take care of the window problem on the windows that you would like to have opened, at least? I would not replace windows on old houses w/ vinyl windows. So you'd want to either have the paint professionally removed safely or else replace the ones you want to open w/ wood (but higher efficiency) windows. The thing is, if you replace windows, that won't take of what's painted w/ lead paint that isn't removable (e.g. where the sashes are and the inner sill area)...so you might find out what the difference in price is between removing ALL the lead paint everywhere in those areas and replacing the actual windows themselves, and the price of removing all that paint in those areas and just going ahead and also removing the lead off the old windows themselves and re-using. See what I mean? What's the price-difference per window or per house (apples to apples is my point)?

    How many windows do you want to open, for now, minimum but realistically? My youngest two children share a bedroom and when I was pregnant (they're twins) I had their bedroom windows replaced with good-quality wood windows. However the insides of the windows - the non-removable areas - are still painted w/ what may have lead. I need to get all our windows tested for crying out loud. So my point is that I rarely open their windows due to that fear and when I do, I wipe them down w/ TSP (not good enough but is something, I tell myself) so at least there's no lead paints/flakes/dust. But now that they're out of their cribs, one of their heads is right under that window that we've opened in the past and now I REALLY don't want to open it until I do something more, at least at that bottom exposed area.

    Whether we replace or remove paint, there are two smaller living room windows (on either side of the fireplace), that we often open during the warm months, and though less often: an office window; two kitchen windows I've never been able to open but would love to; and three bedroom windows at least. That's not all the windows I'd like to open but enough.

    I've never priced replacing them nor having the paint removed but if it's just completely out of our budget then I would make sure they couldn't be opened by a child (but if there's a fire, there's a way out) and then would start ONE WINDOW AT A TIME w/ most important window, and pay to have that window completely removed of paint with whichever method is the least expensive (new windows or removing paint on old, + the removal of all the paint everywhere else). Here's an important note: it's probably more costly to do the non-removable part because the work is done on-site. I wonder if you or your husband could take a class and learn how to remove it yourself, safely, using the proper mask and gloves and taping up plastic around yourself, etc. You can buy paint-removing goop meant for leaded paint removal and let it sit there for however long it takes while your family is out of town or while one of you takes the kids out of town (but the windows would be removed at that time) and then it would all come off very easily after that. It would be very easy to work w/ if the windows were gone you know?

    Would I sell MY old house? No - not if I was told the source was the windows and if I had everything else tested and it came out fine. Because I'd know it was a problem that could be tackled and that the house (and investment) were worth saving. But I would sell it if I thought the problem couldn't be dealt with? Absolutely.

    Here's your homework: ;)

    1. Test the plumbing/water and any other areas you're suspicious of if you haven't already.

    2. Get quotes on new windows and on removing lead from just windows and on removing lead from all the non-removable window area parts. That's 3 quotes. Find out if you can afford this.

    Ugh - sorry for writing so much. Out of time or maybe I'd go shorten it a bit - haha!

  • karinl
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    When we've replaced windows, we've replaced the jamb as well as the sash - meaning the whole box around the window as well as the window itself. Just saying, for both Theresse and the OP, if you're going to replace the window, you might as well solve the problem!

    KarinL

  • theresse
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes Karin - that's the word I was looking for - jamb! And you made your point so concisely - unlike Ms. Verbosity here - hee hee!

  • theresse
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh I SEE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING Karin! You're saying they can just remove the jamb altogether? That's probably a whole lot cheaper than removing the paint, eh?! The only benefit I see of keeping the old wood is if it's much older-growth and much more hardened from age AND if part of the jamb is on the outside, exposed to wood (I can't picture whether a jamb is the entire space including what's exposed on the outside too or if it's totally unexposed to the outside).

    Can you give us any idea of the cost of ANY aspect of this? Just a ball park?

  • jcoxmd
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm a pediatrician living in a 120 year old house. I moved in here with three young kids knowing that the child who lived here before had had a lead level in the 20s. The previous owners (also a pediatrician, BTW) replaced windows in the kids' rooms, but it was thought that the main exposure was during a remodel. I tested my kids' lead levels every few months when we first moved in and they were fine, then after some remodeling...still fine . We've just started a kitchen remodel and are following the new lead abatement guidelines-that will give me piece of mind for any grandchildren or for resale.
    If it gives you any reassurance, there are lots of docs who don't blink at a level If you love your house you can make this work. If this scare has made it too spooky to stay,then there you go!

  • PRO
    Christopher Nelson Wallcovering and Painting
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you love your house you can make this work. If this scare has made it too spooky to stay,then there you go!

    Exactly! Well said.

  • graywings123
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm reading this thread and keep waiting to read what (to me) is the obvious answer. If you were to post your original post on every other forum on Gardenweb, I bet the responses would universally be the same as what I am about to write:

    Are you insane? For crying out loud, your child's health is at stake! Move out of that house!

  • sylviatexas1
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    what graywings said.

  • david_cary
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What graywings and Sylvia just said - and I did in another forum.

    But to each his own. I'm an MD (not a pediatrician) and if my child had a level of 1 and I lived in an old house - I'd be gone so quickly, his paci would fling out of his mouth and I'd be across town before it hit the ground.

  • karinl
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Honestly though, we all court risks of all kinds for our children - they're just not all measurable like lead is. So I think it's a bit holier than thou to say, flee with all haste the one threat to your children that you can see and measure, possibly at the expense of your mental health and satisfaction with your life, thus reducing your ability to be a good parent.

    You'd probably go out and have a car accident in your haste to get across town, and that house would probably have asbestos in it that hasn't been disclosed. Or something else.

    Anyone around here ever check the bacterial content of their food? Serve their kids one-too-many-days old leftovers or chicken cooked four degrees too cold for real safety? Barbeque much, with those yummy cancer-causing deposits on the meat? Food containing red dye or yellow dye whatever it is that's cancer-causing? Live near power lines, or a factory that emits some chemical? How about the risk of drug addiction or drinking/driving in your kids' high school environment - can you measure that? Most of us know when it's there but we leave our kids in proximity to it. And hey, about the plastic in that pacifier, not to mention the psychic cost of having to suck on that instead of nursing? Take your kids to a day care; any idea what, say, the water lines into the building bring?

    Also, you cannot prevent other people with small children living in this house in the future, perhaps with parents who don't care or don't check their children's levels. So it seems very responsible to me to stay the course and seek to fix the problem, if your intent is to restore the house so another series of generations of children can grow up in it. But as I said above, I would look into living out for a while or otherwise encapsulating the problem, say, putting latex sealer around the windows you don't open and fully replacing - jamb included - the ones you do want to open.

    Theresse - a replacement including jamb is definitely more expensive but as there are so many other sources of cost, I won't give numbers. But it's a lot more satisfying to do it this way, and I guess new mouldings, in and out, might also be indicated for lead avoidance.

    Just heading out to strip some leaded paint off an old door - and then going to come in to cook dinner. Life is full of risks, not always measurable, and not always measured.

    KarinL (not always succinct!)

  • kudzu9
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes, karinl, life is full of risks. But that doesn't mean that exposure to a serious one falls in the noise level. I worked in the area of toxic substances and lead abatement for many years, and elevated lead levels in children can have serious and permanent effects. lcdc99 appears to be proactive about this, which is wise and commendable. However, I am concerned with relying on homeopathic medicine to deal with this. The variations she has seen in her children's blood lead levels may be due to other factors than the effectiveness or lack thereof of such treatments.

    Lcdc99: whatever you do, make sure a traditional physician is in charge of treating and monitoring your children. Traditional medicine can deal with this effectively and completely. If you are not relying on this approach, you are doing a disservice to your children. I'm not trying to be mean or judgmental. I'm just concerned with what I'm reading between the lines. If you're already doing this, great. If not, please do so immediately.

  • lcdc99
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My husband I are grateful for the posts and the conversation around this topic. Thank you. We can relate to all viewpoints that have been expressed. It has been a winding journey for us.

    Our peditrician follows the guidelines expressed above for the levels that we have which is basically to find the source and limit the exposure. Along with increasing iron stores and good nutrition. He suggested no other course of action but wait and see. We have regular blood draws to monitor the blood lead levels as I've noted in previous posts. We plan to do a hair anaylsis of all of us once the kits arrive. This would give us a comprehensive picture of many things that may be stored in our bodies.

    My husband and I are both in the health/wellness fields. He is a doctor. We have had to find our own way with this which has included the following resources:
    * Homeopathic physician
    * Medical physcian who specializes in heavy metal and other detoxification (suggested a protocol that was too difficult to adminster to a less than 2 year old)
    * Even Better Now and CC Raphael, http://www.evenbetternow.com/lead-poisoning-detox.asp
    Kids Chelate and Clay Baths
    * Local Resources from State and County for informational purposes
    * Website for a comprehensive listing of things that contain lead - http://www.bluedominoes.com/lead-poisoning

    I have researched this extensively and talked to many people. I'm learning that it would cost at least $30-40,000 to replace our windows. If we were low income and had .9 more elevated level we would have had a course of action set for us and financial resources potentially available. In talking with an abatement contractor he was all gun-ho to come meet with us and help us figure this out until I clarified that we weren't in the low income category. He then called back to let me know that he wouldn't have time and that he's booked out until November. Discouraging to say the least.

    My one recommendation is that when anyone buys a home with known lead present that they take the initiative to connect with local and state resources to have things further tested and to learn what they can do to prevent exposure. Unfortunately, when we bought this place we signed off on the known lead, moved in and didn't proceed to do anything because we were unaware of what that really meant.

    With all that being said, we have not taken an action on the offer for our home. It's ultimately our decision and we are proving to not be very quick at making it.

    Is there anyone out there who had similar levels, stayed in the home and lived happily ever after? Or has an experience to share about living in a home with known lead?

    Here is a link that might be useful: Resource for Lead and Heavy Metal Detox Among Other Things

  • kudzu9
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    lcdc99-
    Thanks for responding. That's a much more reassuring picture than what I deduced from your previous posts. I won't give you any more advice, just best wishes...

  • agl_andiamo
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    lcdc99-
    Your post reminds me of our own situation 4 years ago. We lived in a beautiful Victorian, with a great renovated kitchen too, and were happy there. At the time, my girls were 4 and 2, and they both had elevated lead levels; I don't remember the exact levels, but I know they didn't reach 10. I think the oldest was a 9, then fell to a 5, while the younger ones levels were slightly lower. All I know is I was so anxious, and had a lead inspection done. Like for you, they said it was mostly a concern in the windows, but as the upstairs trim was painted and had lead, that was also a concern where the doors closed and could rub up on the jam (?not knowing my door frame parts here), creating flakes and/or dust. So I too researched the issue for hours, and like you was so frustrated with the fact that there were no financial resources to help us preserve a beautiful home in a safe way without spending a LOT of money. I did send my husband off to a one day training/certification on how to replace windows in a lead-safe way. He did replace a lot of them (about 25), but we did not follow the rules exactly - only in that we did not have an inspection after each few windows were replaced to retest (a $500 visit. I did take the girls to my in-laws overnight each time he replaced some though. We also replaced the exterior clapboard with new wood for the bottom 15 feet, and I was so worried about the flakes from that we were outside vacuuming soil with HEPA vacs. I still worried. I do not miss those days.

    So, what did we ultimately do? We moved. I was so tired of worrying about every time my toddler sucked her thumb or dug in the dirt. Yes, since we left, -the kids levels went down, and they've never been an issue for dd #3, who has only lived in our new house. And that has been *such* a relief. (Now I can worry about PVC! And bpa! And sunscreen!)
    I now live in a house that is late-80s to the core - white tile, beige laminate counters, brass fixtures....it just feels soul-less after living in a house with such warm woodwork, artisan fireplace tile surrounds, push-button switchplates.....sigh.
    But it also has a great neighborhood and good schools, something that I appreciate even more as the kids get older. So while I do find myself singing that "little boxes" song on my drive home some days, and I do have a LOT of renovation ideas, I am happy.

    Yet, if truly you love this house and its location, I would look seriously at where else you would buy, and how much money you may have to put into making changes there you'd want, and figure out if instead going through with lead abatement would be the best thing for you. I remember how daunting this seemed, and how much I just wished there was a person who was an expert who would really just tell me what I should get done. In the end, your family will still be together no matter where you are, and that's what matters.

    Sorry so long-winded - your post just brought me back to a time when I felt I wanted to strangle anyone who just pushed aside my concerns by saying "they were in old houses growing up and they were fine" but I also grew to resent the other side that made me worry so much I felt like sticking the kids in a bubble (Bpa-free and pvc-free, of course) and getting a needed glass of wine.

    Good luck on whatever course of action you take. It is obvious you love your children and I am sure you will make the choice that is right for your family.

  • lcdc99
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh my. I think you've just read my mind and heart. Thank you for sharing your story. We have talked about this dilemna with very few people (except the "experts") and I appreciate you taking the time to tell me your experience. It has caused lots of anxiety as you've described to the point that our oldest asks me regularly, "Can I touch this...does it have lead in it?" The sides as you describe it really hits home and I've had much frustration with both. I also have been reminded that new homes have toxic things in them that we may or may not know the effects of at this time. Where can I get some of those bubbles that you referred to :-) Again, much gratitude for your sharing.

  • autumngal
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    As a parent, I think you ultimately have to listen to your parent voice and do what that says.

    We moved into an old home not quite 2 years ago and have three children ages 5- 9, we have not had their lead levels tested. After reading your post, I think we will. Since I've never been in your situation, I'm not sure what I would do. I have to say, it would be really hard for me to leave my home. It's so us, I love being able to walk to places, I love the character of it, I love our neighbors. It's the ideal place for us to live and the way I'd like my children to grow up. I think what I would probably do is take care of the lead problem in the home and stay there. However, I wouldn't hesitate to move if there was no good solution to solving the problem.

    There is one family I know that did have a similar situation. Their young children had very high lead levels and moving was not something they were interested in doing. So, they moved out for 6 months and had everything done. It was a hard choice, but their perspective was, this home and lifestyle is what we want for our children, so it's worth the time and expense to continue that. They moved back in and now there are no lead issues and instead of gradually doing projects, they are all finished. That path isn't the easiest path, but if you aren't totally sold on moving, it might be the right one. You might also want to check into your insurance policy, because I know that some things were covered by insurance. They had lead all over the house, but their main issue was the tub. The interior of their tub had been painted with lead at some point (you couldn't tell) and they were bathing children in it.

    Thanks for posting this and please keep us updated.

  • david_cary
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Holier than thou here. I think I can safely say that no toxic substance has caused as much damage in all of human history than lead. Sure - that is primarily because it has been around along time whereas bpa has not.

    But comparing lead to bpa is a bit like comparing smoking to a twinkee. Smoking is known in all forms at all exposure levels to be harmful to almost every body system. A twinkee might put on a few pounds and is devoid of any benefit. Lead has been known for a long time to be dangerous. The jury is still out on bpa. The government at all levels regulates lead and lead disclosures. The FDA is not really worried about bpa.

    I'll admit that I really don't get the "emotional" attachment to some wood, plaster, concrete and a few other materials. I love my house but wouldn't stay in it another second if I felt it could affect my child's neurologic development.

    I wouldn't live in a bubble but there are 2 things that I absolutely wouldn't allow my child to be exposed to - you guessed it - lead and smoking.

  • slateberry
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    40K is a big number, but it is for a permanent solution. Some bathroom remodels cost more, and look dated in 20 years. Roll it into a heloc. At 5% 30 year amortization, you're talking $214 a month. That's cutting cable tv, getting rid of one cell phone, and one less dinner out.

    You can probably find a way to do this.

    I personally would find some underemployed folks, there seem to be plenty these days. Order protective gear for them and soygel paint stripper by the gallon, have all windows taken away and hand-stripped offsite. Plywood over the holes while it's done. But keep the orignal, old-growth wood windows if you possibly can.

  • bulldinkie
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Remember I said hubby had to take a class on lead...Well he said if theyre showing lead readings its too late ,Its in thier bones.
    Its not floating in the air if you have say a window with lead paint it,seal it,the problem lies in the sanding.A good paint will seal it.
    When specialist come in to remove lead they put down a tarp so when they sand it falls in tarp,lead is heavy.
    A famous composer died the people exumed the body they found he died from eating off of lead dishes.Alot of old copper kettles were lined with lead.

  • theresse
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    bulldinkie - no specialist would come in, put down tarp and then sand - haha. There might be tarp down but they'd never sand. ;)

    The composer you may have been referring to was I assume Beethoven. He had higher lead levels in his hair, indicating exposure in the weeks before his death - probably from medicine for what was really killing him (renal failure but no one knows why yet) and later they realized from analyzing the bones of his skull that it wasn't lead exposure that killed him as his lead levels were very low there.

  • bulldinkie
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just ask her she knows all, ha ha Im done.

  • theresse
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yeah I sounded pretty know-it-all-ish, sorry about that!

  • brickeyee
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The most common source of lead in lead paint is lead acetate 9AKA 'sugar of lead').

    It was used to improve gloss and promote drying and hardening of the resin in the paint (alkyd resins harden by polymerizing, cross linking, and oxidizing).

    It is not an especially dense material (1.6 t 3.2 g/cm^3, with lead itself at >11.3 g/cm^3) and with all the other lighter weight things in paint.

    While metallic lead is dense, the sanding residue will NOT be especially heavy and the fine dust from sanding or window sashes rubbing on the tracks will remain airborne for a long time.

    Inhaling it WILL produce a lead dose.

    I would attempt to bury the lead under a new finish, but if that is not possible I would NOT allow children who have already managed to pick up lead in their bodies remain in the house.

    Lead IS a real hazard, especially to growing children who are trying to get their brains set up for the rest of their lives.

    If they have not been finding and eating paint chips (Sugar of lead tastes very sweet) or mouthing surfaces with lead airborne lead is a reasonable source.

  • fanner
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Slowly sneaking around the corner, out of my hiding place, and sticking my 2 cents into this conversation....
    I have skimmed through the majority of the replies here and will say that I think you have plenty (all-be-it confliciting) of advice, from all sides. I just wanted to be another person who has been/is going through this. Go grab a bag of popcorn, this may get long:
    Eleven years ago, my dh and I moved into a Queen Anne style home built in 1904. The monent we walked in the front door we asked the realitor "so what's wrong with it?", and she answered "honestly, other than it's obvious age, nothing!" It is a beautiful specimine of victorian home, my dream home, and in amazing shape - inside and out. There is no paint on any of the woodwork, all original double-hung windows, no carpet has ever been tacked onto the floors, the original cedar exterior has been kept up with paint every few years, etc.... At one point the kitchen was updated with linoleum flooring and the bathroom has been through several up-grades. All else has been preserved in it's almost original state.
    Fast-forward about 6 years; 2 summers ago we finally began the omious process of scraping and re-painting the old beast's exterior. We waited about 3 years longer than we should have, and the paint was peeling *bad*. We started on the "back" of the house where our children's play-set is. At that time we were the proud parents of 4 children, ranging in age from 6 to not quite 2. In the past, 1 or 2 times, the kids had their lead level checked at a well child visit, as we live in an old house. They were always within normal limits.
    Bring on the well child visit for our then 2 year old ~ our only thumb sucker, none-the-less. His level came back at 20!! After the breaks were done squeeling on our painting project, all the boys were tested and they were somewhere around 4,6 and 11. The youngest was started on iron (he was also anemic) and the county had to come and test all over the house. Before she came, though, she did tell us what we could do to reduce levels ASAP (ie; before she even started her "investigation") within the house. We scrubbed window sills and floors like no tomorrow. I left 1 window "as is" so we could get an idea of what we were dealing with, though.
    So, already long story short, the cleaned out windows tested within "tolerable" limits. The area on the kitchen floor under the high chair was above acceptable as was the front and back door entry ways. She explained that she had never worked a case where the exposure most likely occured outside, but thankfully she didn't assume this was impossible. So, the soil in the back yard was tested and came back at a level that was, apparently, too high to calculate (or something like that). But, since they were investigating a toxic lead level, all of the house was tested. Many areas were tested and listed in the citation, and we were originally given 30 days (!!!!???) to fix everything. Thankfully, again, the county health nurse is also a realistic human being who realized there was no way we were going to have it all done that soon. Along with painting the exterior, we have had to renovate both porches (there will be a seprate post on that in the next few weeks).
    So, here we are almost 2 years later (his 4 year well-child check will be due in exactly 10 days!) and we are still considered "under investigation". Do I know where you are coming from? Oh yeah!!!!! This is my dream home, but my children (we have 5 now) are my world. We have the fortune of knowing exactly what the exposure came from, so eliminating the exposure has been possible. And our son's level was well within normal limits in 6 months. He was at 5 on his 3 year check (1 year after he was at 20) so levels can go down, despite what you may hear....
    Again, our children are our world ~ and I will do anything to protect them. We are protecting them by maintaining safe practices with our old home. My hubby and I have had a few spats with regards to "this house", as it is *my* dream home, not necessarily his. Thankfully it is an amazing home, and he knows it. BUT, this has been a major source of stress and anxiety in our lives for the past 2 years!! Thankfully we don't have too much else to worry about, and every marriage has it's tests ;)
    Phew, do you need a potty break yet? I think I'm ready to summarize ;)

    In short, you can love your children, be a good parent, *and* live in an old home that you love. Opinions on parenting and child safety are going to be as plentiful those who are sharing them! On the flip side, if it is not worth the stress to you then that decision is OK too. You can always move into an older home when the birds have left the roost. Best of luck to you and know that you are not alone in this roller-coaster. Let us know the outcome, please!

  • lcdc99
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Is anyone else lurking that wants to share their story with lead, kids and old houses?

    Thanks, Mrs. Richards for your telling us your experience. A few questions come to mind...how do you keep your kids safe when projects are in process? Did you do any chelation or treatments with them? Do you have peace of mind or is this something that causes ongoing anxiety?

    Thanks much!

  • fanner
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sorry I didn't see your questions sooner (we have been soooo busy with this house!!)

    "...how do you keep your kids safe when projects are in process?" = since our projects are outside it is a bit easier. We have been doing one side at a time and the kids are banned from that side of the house. The front porch was done last year, so all entry was through the back. Back porch this year so all through the front. Hubby has dedicated clothes that he ditches in the basement when he is done scraping (the kids do not go down there) and we have the worksite enclosed in plastic.
    "Did you do any chelation or treatments with them?" = thankfully, no. Our sons levels were not that severe and the levels began to drop immediately when he was banned from playing in the back yard.
    "Do you have peace of mind or is this something that causes ongoing anxiety? " = I would say we have peace of mind regarding the fact that one of the kids had a high lead level. He was completely asymptomatic and it was a lesson that we needed to learn regarding safe practices. Our only ongoing anxiety is trying to get all of this work done (ie the abatement process) while trying to keep any further exposures from happening. We are really feeling the heat as our new deadline is just around the corner. We do have to shout out once in a while things like "Do not play in that dirt, there could be lead there!" and "When you see those yellow ribbons it means *stay out*" - the kids need constant reminders to keep out of the work areas and neighbor kids are a whole other story... If I were too anxious about it I think we would move. We are being careful, and I will not stress about it. There are so many other worries in the world ~ I have to feel safe in my own home. It is just a decision we have made. I hope that makes sense? Best of luck to you, again. I hope you get a solution, as I said it just isn't worth too much stressing over!

  • HU-90205609045
    5 years ago
    we recently bought an old home in New York. I found out I was pregnant 3 weeks after moving here. When we bought the house, we were aware of potential lead issue. we even brought those 3M test swab with us at the walk through. now that I am living here, and more further along in my pregnancy, my husband is getting more paranoid. my lead level went from undetected to 1. we will find the result to my more recent blood test tomorrow. we have replace all the windows in the house , but we will did not replace the window frames / window sill. last owner has done some lead encapsulation by using those really thick paint. we are very worry for our future child. does anyone know if lead encapsulation through paint is really sufficient? is latex paint enough? I think all lead are in the paint job (so doors and walls). does lead abatement means replacing all the walls and doors? if the OP happens to see this, please let me know how your children are doing and what you end up doing with your home. thank you
  • toxcrusadr
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    Abatement means cutting off exposure, and that includes encapsulating with other paint. Once covered the lead paint is not a hazard UNLESS it flakes off or is abraded to create lead containing dust. This happens at wear points like windows, door jambs, stair railings etc. where there is abrasion and impact.

    Things to keep in mind:

    There are many possible sources of lead. If you moved very far you may be in a different environment in terms of soil, air, etc. Have you tested soil outside your house? How about the water pipes? Have you tested your water? Not with a home kit, but at a lab.

    How about dust in the home? If any lead paint removal was done, there could be dust lurking, or even if there wasn't, it could be old dust from when all the lead paint was exposed. You could have wipe samples done on the floors and windowsills to find out.

    Also, having a detection does not necessarily mean high risk. Even levels above the recommended level do not automatically mean you or your child will be sick. Not to downplay the recommended limits, just pointing out that they're based on statistics over a large population. Exceeding means there is a greater likelihood of damage. It's kind of like not wearing your seatbelt: You may not get hurt, but there is a greater chance that you will.

  • toxcrusadr
    5 years ago
    last modified: 5 years ago

    BTW what I described above is basically a 'lead exposure risk assessment' which looks for ALL sources of lead that children could be exposed to. As opposed to a lead paint inspection, where you test the paint on the walls to see if it's lead paint. A risk assessment is what you do when blood lead is elevated and you want to know where it's coming from.

  • Laura Hoefer
    3 years ago

    lldc99 So did you stay out did you move? This is my current situation and I’ve been digging to the ends of the internet to hash out my anxieties

  • kats737
    3 years ago

    Laura Hoefer, wanted to give you a hand because you bumped a 10-year old thread and it's quite possible the original poster isn't around anymore. You may want to start your own new thread in the Old House forum that explains more about your situation (kids, what their lead levels are, where the lead was found in your home, etc...) and you can get some tailored advice for your concerns.

  • Anna Burns
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Laura, we are in the same boat. Windows seem to be the issue. We sealed them off, but my kid's lead level didn't budge and is at 6. I really dk what to do :( pls lmk if you start a new thread so we might get some advice

  • Laura Hoefer
    3 years ago

    Hey thanks for the reply! My kids level started at a 3.5 (this was in September 2016 so windows likely would of been open) and swiftly went down. Luckily. I have to say when we bought our house as new homebuyers without kids, we did not do our lead homework. This causes Me so much guilt. My son is almost 6 now and I wanted his levels checked at his last doc appt and they thought I was weird. I guess they stop testing after a certain age.

  • kudzu9
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Laura- I was involved with lead regulation and abatement for quite a few years. Unfortunately, I ran into a number of doctors who thought lead levels in children were nothing to be concerned about...not the majority of pediatricians, but still a disturbing number. We all have some level of lead due to ingestion from a variety of environmental sources, but it is more concerning when an elevated level is present in a child. I don't think it is unreasonable for you to insist that you want a re-test, especially since your child had a 3.5 mg/dL result several years ago, which is getting close to what we generally refer to as an action level.

  • Laura Hoefer
    3 years ago

    @kudzu9 the scary part is... they called it normal and that was the end of it. No conversation. Had I not done my homework at that point and further questioned it to my doctor, there would of been no conversation that led me to realize the lead in our home.

  • Anna Burns
    3 years ago

    @kudzu9 may I ask you a couple of questions? Is it typical for the child to have the same lead blood level (he is 17 months) 2 months in a row if the source was eliminated? We sealed the windows with plastic and clean his room and toys twice weekly with lead abatement products while waiting for the windows to be replaced, but the levels are still high. We replaced all the dishes and cookware to non-toxic. I even tested my breastmilk and it came back negative for lead. We are at a loss and have no clue of we actually got to the source. Our doctor is saying that in some kids it can take up to 9 months for the levels to go down.

  • Anna Burns
    3 years ago

    Laura, did you end up replacing the windows? How did you get the levels to go down?

  • kudzu9
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Anna-

    Lead levels do not quickly go down because of the way it is retained in the body. It can take quite a while for there to be a change even if sources of exposure are eliminated. If cases where a child's levels are highly elevated, sometimes doctors prescribe a cleansing regime called chelation therapy where a chemical blood purifiying method is used to lower lead levels, but that would only be used with levels that are much higher than what your child has. While a 3.5 µg/dL lead level is something to monitor, it is not at a point where you should be alarmed or seek invasive procedures. The Federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) defines 5 µg/dL as an “elevated blood lead” where health concerns are sufficient that public health officials should take action. It is not a “safe” level. Rather, it is set at a level that an estimated 2.5% of children aged 1 to 5 years of age (approximately 500,000 children) have blood lead levels that exceed the value and warrant intervention. What that means is that 97.5% of children have blood lead levels less than 5 µg/dL, including your child. While you want to continue to minimize lead exposure in your household, you should not stress out about the result you have. Keep having it tested some months in the future, and expect it to be somewhat reduced by then.

  • Anna Burns
    3 years ago

    Thanks so much for your response. He is actually at 6, so above the "safe" level. It's good to know that the levels don't drop quickly. Since we took so many precautions and didn't see an improvement in 2 months, we are concerned that the source is still not eliminated.

  • Isaac
    3 years ago

    Anna, besides windows, two other places to check are doors/door frames, and soil. If a door (or, in our case, a towel hook on a door) rubs, it can generate paint dust. And soil can have lead, from flaking lead paint on the exterior of the house, or from atmospheric deposition from leaded gasoline.


    Doors and door frames can be tested with the little home lead test sticks from a hardware store. Soil can be tested by sending it to a soil lab; we used the University of Massachusetts Amherst lab.


    Door frames can be stripped (carefully); soil can be removed and replaced.


    Hopefully neither of these is an issue and you have eliminated the source. I totally understand your worries - we went through something similar.

  • Laura Hoefer
    3 years ago

    @Anna Burns We haven’t replaced our windows. They are in really bad shape, crumbling on the inside, chipping paint. I would deep clean them every spring, carefully with a wet towel but I think we just can never open them again for safety. Window replacement is so costly. We were going to have it done this spring but now I am terrified of the mess it will cause with lead dust inside and outside the house. I’m scared of causing more problems by disturbing them! I’m conflicted. We have an 18 month old now. His levels were a 2.1 in December. We were also going to have our kitchen cabinets replaced... but now I’m conflicted if it’s better to just leave everything alone.

  • Anna Burns
    3 years ago

    Thank you Isaac. We actually hired a lead inspector to come and check the entire house. Everything else seems to be ok besides the windows (we are replacing them in 3 weeks). Great point on the soil as it did come contaminated. Once the windows are replaced we will replace the top couple feet in flower beds around the house. Glad to hear that your family is doing well now.

  • Anna Burns
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    @Laura Hoefer seems like your situation is not as bad as ours in terms of exposure. We didn't know about the windows and my kid's bed was right by them. He got exposed a lot with all the opening and closing. Plus the age doesn't help - he still puts everything in his mouth.

    If you decide to strip them yourself, I would advise to take a class on lead safety. That being said seems like it's a very complicated process and it might make the situation worse. There are some sealing paints for lead, but you'll still have to scrape the peeling paint off, which is dangerous.

    I'm going to strip only the 1st floor windows as it gets warmer (they are 8 ft tall so super expensive to replace), but we decided to replace the rest. Restoring is even more expensive if a professional is hired.

    Have you tried using professional lead cleaning products for lead to mop the floors? Maybe this will help reduce the exposure for your kids. It's all so scary. I'm scared that my kid will be permanently brain-damaged due to all of this :(

  • kudzu9
    3 years ago

    Anna-

    Sorry. I was looking at a bunch of postings and got confused about the lead level for your child. Keep monitoring, do good maintenance, and don’t get obsessed. You’re right to take this seriously, but I will note that when I was a kid — many decades ago — people weren’t very much aware of this issue and the data we do have from that time show children routinely had much higher lead levels than they do today and we somehow turned out ok. I’m not minimizing your concern, but I am saying that channeling it into limiting further exposure is more productive than worrying. You’re doing the right things and those marginally elevated levels will decline in time.

  • Laura Hoefer
    3 years ago

    @kudzu9 @Anna Burns yes, you’re right I read that average lead levels in children in the 70s-80s was about 25ppm. this helped ease my anxiety slightly but it still a huge source of daily worry for me

  • Laura Hoefer
    3 years ago

    @Anna Burns we called about having an inspection done but they basically said given the age of the home ..1949... there’s no doubt it’s there and treat it as such. They said an inspection could cause issues with selling the house or having contractors work because you would have to disclose that paper work. I guess I just wish I knew exactly where it was and what the best thing to do to keep our kids safe here. We have no plans to move anytime soon even though I have been so distraught about the lead on many occasions I’ve just wanted to take my kids and run away to a hotel or something ha! I obsessively go around the the lead test swabs testing around the house. I also worry that my kids levels have at some point have gone above the a “safe” level and I just didn’t know about it because testing only happens 1-2x a year. Such a huge source of confusion and anxiety for me. ecspecially when we want to do some work to our home.

  • Anna Burns
    3 years ago

    Thank you all for your replies! You are putting me a bit more at ease.

    @Laura Hoefer I did the swab test I bought from HD and it didn't show anything, but the dust samples did. Not sure the disclosure protocol if you just do dust samples. They are quite cheap too - $10/15, so you might wanna do it to see the actual level on the floor in the play area.

    You can ask your pedi to send blood for lead each time you see them, the only thing is that kids do get poked a lot more frequently.

    We retest every couple of months because the levels are elevated.

  • kudzu9
    3 years ago

    The only problem I have with lead swab test kits -- though I've used them myself -- is that they aren't quantitative, they only give an indication for a small area, and they may not detect lead if there is some other coating on top of the surface. So a positive result only reveals some lead: could be a trivial amount, could be significant; and a negative result can be misleading.

    I'm not saying don't use them, but I am saying don't drive yourself nuts by continually swabbing stuff and getting a possible false sense that things are either safe or dangerous.

  • Laura Hoefer
    3 years ago

    @kudzu9 say someone happened to sand or strip the lead paint from trim, for example, and then repainted over it. Would the lead swab still be positive on the woodwork?

  • kudzu9
    3 years ago

    It probably wouldn’t test positive, and it would also mean that if any lead remained it was encapsulated and would not be a risk unless disturbed. Where one worries is when you have, for example, trim with lead-containing paint that has been painted over but it gets abraded or a young child starts teething on it.