BTW: We plan to do foundation work in 1 year. So my concern about fixing the cracks now is, wouldn't structural work on the house bring cracks back and many more new ones?

If the cracks are "hairline" and not open, paint will cover them.

This post was edited by brickeyee on Sat, Apr 27, 13 at 15:57

Really impossible to give an opinion without seeing them. However, if the cracks are just hairline, I would consider repair rather than replacement. Over the years, I've owned dozens of homes with plaster walls and only replaced certain walls that couldn't be practically stripped of 30 layers of paint and wallpaper.

Drywall is also subject to continual cracking at stress points.

Do not even let removing the plaster enter your mind, hairline and or even worse cracks are easily fixed.
That architect is wacko.

I wouldn't even think about doing anything until the foundation work is complete.

Architects are not divine sources of wisdom-they are in it for the money, so replacing your plaster with drywall increases his percentage of the take.

Hairline cracks and others are fixed with only a little skill, no need for a pro to charge you tons of money. In either case, hold off until the foundation work is done. At all costs, do NOT allow the plaster to be removed, it is better insulation and sound proofing than any drywall. In SF, I can't imagine that insulation is going to be a huge savings...save the insulation money for the attic.

Hey guys, it's not the architect recommending to replace, it's the GC.

I can try to show on pictures tomorrow. There are a lot of line cracks in the rooms. On the ceiling there is an area with more of intertwined crack lines, almost looking like it's going to chip off.

We are doing remodel on kitchen and bathroom, and will repaint the house and refinish floors. GC thinks if we don't replace with sheet rock, kitchen and bathroom will look all new and smooth different from rooms with all the cracks. And he says we can try to fix the cracks, but painter job would cost more and there is a chance we get half of the cracks back in a few years.

A benefit of replacing the plaster is that we could rewire all the knob and tube wiring, put outlets everywhere we want, and on we would get rid of all lead paint on the walls. For the ceiling he is recommending putting a sheet under the existing ceiling.

I don't think he is saying this just to get more work as he doesn't charge profit on top of sub work.

But I am thinking, $8500 for sheet tock all the walls, plus $8500 to rewire....that's a lot of money I was not planning on spending.

About the foundation work I mentioned on OP - Our plan is to in 1 year add a 3rd bedroom in the garage and we would need to replace foundation on the back of the house.

Thanks

I cut the gas, electric and water supply in the cellar when I bought my over 100 year old (at the time) house (3 story plus cellar) and ran everything new. Also added, moved and removed hot water radiators. All my walls are plaster and none of it was removed to replace all the mechanicals. Holes that needed to be patched - sure - but not replaced with sheetrock. I subsequently installed central air. The characteristic persistent stress cracks were repaired by a good plasterer with nylon tape about 15 years ago and they have not returned.

Do not let them remove your plaster.

quote"Hey guys, it's not the architect recommending to replace, it's the GC. "

Well, that is even worse, he is just trying to rip you off.

I wouldn't worry too much about that knob-and-tube wiring if it hasn't been damaged or tampered with. That type of wiring, if it was done right, will safely outlast the house. The most likely problem may be that the wire size is inadequate if you plug in something like a space heater and a hair dryer at the same time, and you probably could use more outlets. But any rewiring job can wait. If the circuit is overloaded, the fuse or breaker should protect it long before the wire heats up dangerously.

I agree, don't replace the original plaster with drywall unless it is absolutely unsalvageable. I have repaired loose patches of plaster using 1" diameter metal buttons designed just for the purpose, under drywall screws. These also work with drywall, too, particularly in cases where it tends to pop out through the paper over the screw heads. For more information, see

http://www.charlesstsupply.com/plaster_washers/instructions.php

He says it will be brand new, no risk of cracks

Really? Drywall never cracks? Ask him how long he'll guarantee that. :-)

And no, it won't look "funny" that your bathroom has drywall but your LR has plaster, or whatever mismatch he's referring to.

Wiring can be done without removing the walls.

Insulation in the walls shouldn't be a big concern in the temperate climate of SFO.

There's no way that repairing plaster cracks will cost more than replacing plaster walls. He's smoking something.

Oh my..............there is a big difference between 'foundation' problems and subsidence issues. Earth is fluid. It 'can' cause foundation issues, but hairline stress cracks aren't automatically foundation issues, expecially in a nearly eighty year old house. My house is 200 years old, some of the windows and doors look more like trapezoids than rectangles. My mate redid the walls before I met him, and there is a mixture of drywall, plaster, and drywall over plaster I had no call over. I can tell you with no reservations dry wall CAN and does crack under stress because I've repaired enough of it. I can also tell you that plaster can be repaired, I'd done enough of that too. What's my preference? No brainer.......plaster and I try to preserve it wherever it's possible.

Plaster walls are not solid, there are gaps through which to run electricals. Now, many of my walls are brick........with plaster over and that's a different issue but we still have run electricals between the courses and in difficult situations through exterior conduits. One expects that with ancient houses.

After having lived in this house a quarter of a century now, I am again doing some crack repair to my plaster walls at stress points, mainly corners of doors and windows. I expect to do that and consider it part of regular maintenance to have real plaster walls. My foundation is composed of huge blocks of solid rocks and it shall probably be here (house or not over it) for a millenium or more if a human doesn't excavate it. It dosn't have 'issues' but simply is responding to a much greater force ever so slowly and that is the pressure and fluidity of the earth surrounding it.

It's your call of course and I'm not at all suggesting your contractor or architect are trying to dig you. They most likely are advising you with what they think is best based on their value systems and not everybody holds preserving an 'older system' of buidling in high regard or are willing to do what it takes to maintain it. That's all.

Hey guys, I really appreciate all the feedback. I don't think GC is trying to rip me off. What I think is that he is talking from the perspective of people with a lot more $$$ than I do. He did the plaster removal at his own home too, he seems to think it's much better. As far as insulation he says he would add insulation to walls bringing it to a high R level. But yeah, I would prefer to do it. The goal was remodel kitchen and bathroom, not remodel the ENTIRE house.

Another concern with the cracks, is if it chips and then lead based paint chips fall. I should have mentioned we are having a baby around the time we move to new house.

Thanks

Guys, thanks for all messages so far. I went to the house and got pictures of the walls that have the most cracks. I also got some feedback from the tenant that used to live there. I asked if when the walls where painted they had fixed the cracks. She said the previous owner paid to paint, but didn't want to pay to fix all the cracks. Tenants says he tried to fix some stuff but didn't do a thorough job. I actually think I can spot some bad fixes from the painter. In one picture you will see an exposed crack, it wasn't open like that, I did that.

Link to pictures on dropbox
https://www.dropbox.com/sc/q3m2skxj7nf808f/mEPfKULBUJ

Please let me know your thoughts.

Thanks much

Here is a link that might be useful: pictures

I see nothing there that cannot EASILY be fixed.

Again, just because the GC removed all the plaster in his own house is no recommendation--in fact, I'd never use the guy as he seems to have no respect for older and often sounder materials...and you can bet he is getting kickback on supplies, so no wonder he is urging the replacement of sound plaster with drywall. Further, I'd be extremely leery of subs in California...are they licensed, bonded? Or are they people hired off the street as cheap labor?

I second Christophern...there is nothing visible that warrants the extreme measures the GC is mentioning. As to the lead issue, if the cracks are properly done, and the paint is sound, then you have no worries. Plaster contains no lead, and chances are that there are many layers of paint over any lead paint that might have been there, encapsulating it soundly.

I'd be searching for another GC if his mantra is remove everything--that is not needed to rewire...ond KT wiring between switches and lights is fine, and if you trace your outlet circuits you will know what you can plug into each without blowing a fuse or breaker. A radio and another person will save lots of time running from the box to the outlets--I have things on opposite sides of the house on the same circuit, and at least two circuits in most rooms. :)

Paint for now. If the cracks come back, deal with them then. Spend the time learning about old houses. People have been raising kids in houses like yours for a century and we're mostly ok. Learn to DIY. You will be surprised how easy, rewarding and better looking some of what you do is. Spending a dozen or so hours reading old posts can save you a fortune and massive headaches. I know it has really helped me.

I second the thoughts above. We did a renovation on our 100 yr old house, and the only thing I regret is using drywall and not redoing the plaster. The drywalled areas are much more noisy and less solid than the original plaster.

I also would not remove knob and tube unless there is an overload issue.

I also would not remove knob and tube unless there is an overload issue.

Many insurers will not permit coverage unless it is made inoperative or reduced to a small percentage of the live wiring.

Callope: The foundation work we might do in the future is not related to the wall cracks. We plan to add living space in the garage and will have to lower the slab. Since there is a good amount of structural work needed, we might replace the foundation. Otherwise we would have to under pin the footings and do other work, but it might cost almost as much as replacing with a new foundation.

"He did the plaster removal at his own home too, he seems to think it's much better."

Then he is a fool, at least.

He removed a BETTER material to replace it with an inferior product.

I doubt he could even afford real plaster (if you can find someone to install it).

This post was edited by brickeyee on Mon, Apr 29, 13 at 14:31

He makes a point that the plaster from nowadays is indeed a luxury, but it's very different from the old plaster.

Why are you listening to this GC? Sounds like he knows practically nothing about old houses and the way they work; you are getting very sound advice from extremely knowledgeable people--and it isn't costing you a cent. Is this GC a relative, someone you have to humor to keep peace in the family?

Yes new plaster is done differently from the old work...but that doesn't make it better, just different. What a lot of people call plaster these days, is the method used in This Old House--a thin veneer over blueboard. There is no way that is better than original plaster, just faster and possibly cheaper. True plaster is a multi-coat system applied to wood lath or mesh...very insulating for sound and drafts. If your idea of taking care of an old house is based on HGTV or TOH sources, you had better check around for advice from true old house experts and not remodellers.

Brickeyee and Worthy, to name only two here, are giving you true wisdom from experience. Use it and profit from it, or sell the house to someone who will respect it. Surely there was a reason you bought an old house rather than the price? If nothing else, hold off on everything until you do a LOT more research--don't let the GC buffalo you into making costly changes which aren't necessary.

As for KT wiring, codes vary and so do insurers...I had no problem getting insured here in Columbus, Ohio.

Find out who the POs used to insure the house. This company may let you keep the KT. We were allowed to keep some minor "issues" b/c we stayed with the same insurance company.

Hi, my house was built in 1855 and I would never use sheetrock! Every time we repaint we patch tiny cracks...it is part of an old house's complexion, not a big problem. Try to find a flexible patching compound, as you will have some earthquake activity there. (grew up in the area) We did take down what was left of falling ceilings, though, for safety reasons...the house had been empty for 10 years and had a leaky roof. Hanging pictures on plaster (right over brick) can be a bit tricky, but worth it for a unique home.

PS. Our GC had all sorts of stupid ideas, lower the ceilings, move and shrink the doors, knock down walls...you have to fight for your old house...don't be bullied! Put your foot down!

Ditto everyone....I have a 1940 house with plaster walls and ceilings and would never consider drywall to cover the small cracks. I made the mistake of putting drywall over the LR plaster ceilings to cover small cracks - it is now "too smooth" and does not have the character of an old house ceiling. We also rewired the entire house by snaking through the walls...never had to cut open a wall. No insulation in the walls either - I live in FL - the roof is the major source of heat gain so I have plenty of insulation up there.

I think your GC is finding ways to create more $$ for him and is not sensitve of old houses. I have had estimates on refinishing my heart pine floors - more often than not, they recommended pulling them up and replacing with exotic woods! ( and I am sure they were planning on taking my heart pine boards with them)

Thanks all. This is the feedback I got from the painter. His approach to fixing the cracks and painting the walls.

Does it sound ok?

"Complete preparation and painting of above property as follows:
Filling all cracks, sanding, and applying a tin coat of topping mud on entire wall surfaces,
Sanding and full priming with Vinyl wall sealer (PVA) because all walls will be covered
with new mud, and it is considered as new surface.
This is same as previously submitted quotation. We were going to prep and prim as it was
all new surfaces. With one exception that there will be an extra work to patch and fill all
cracks and apply new tin layer. Any other approach to prep and repair the cracks will end
up making the walls appear with lots of lines on it. This is called spider web effect""

Thanks

I do not understand most of that but I would never use cheap pva primer.It is just what I am used to, maybe it works for him. I would use a primer sealer such as Zinnser 123 or BM's Fresh Start.

Does it sound ok?

The quote doesn't address restorative repair of the cracks where the plaster has pulled away from the lathing. (See here, for instance, where the contractor is using "Big Wally's.")

I bet he's planning to just remove those sections by chipping them out, filling with Durabond or equivalent, then coating the whole wall to try and blend it in.

I plead guilty to once, early on, letting an electrician bash in the plaster walls with a sledge hammer to access wiring, then agreeing to drywall patches. It was a five-plex rental and looks weren't the number one prioritiy. I later switched to an electrician who was a master with five-foot flexible drill bits and the like.

Some of the plaster damage looks like water caused. Be sure the sources are fixed.

Skuba, don't know where you are finding these guys...but coating the entire wall in a thin mud coat? Extra work means extra bucks for him. You can fill the cracks without leaving lines everywhere--just make them level with the surrounding surface, then prime with a good latex primer and paint. Your walls don't seem to be infested with cracks to the degree that his approach is needed.

If he plans on using mesh tape for cracks, that will make extra work as it is thicker than paper tape and takes more feathering to even it out with the surrounding surface. I highly recommend covering a few small areas with:
1. Straight compound
2. Paper tape and compound
3. Mesh tape and compound
Do this yourself to see what looks best. You only need to do a section about a foot long in each case.
Just as a point of reference, old plaster walls are often seen to have a slight texture or waviness which adds character--only drywall yields a perfectly flat boring surface...which will not look good in an old house.

I seriously think you are being seen as a newbie cash cow for these people. The only person you can trust to look out for your interests is YOU--I know this from experience, sad to say.

Hi Columbusguy, thanks for the feedback. In other circumstances I would try it myself, but with a baby on the way, overloaded at work and this house, I don't have time to do it.

Did you see the pictures? There are a good amount of cracks in the rooms, specially the bedrooms. On all walls and ceiling. And some of them are intertwined like a spider web. I think if it were just a few would be easier to patch.
Some cracks go all the way from top to bottom.

So you think it's overkill to sand the walls and apply the mud? What exactly is this mud? I thought it was just a compound, like you mentioned.

I don't want perfect walls, but some of the cracks stick out quite a lot. It's hard to explain, they are thick sticking out of the wall.

I don't know what do. My GC is very reputable with a lot of positive referrals. This painter is the sub he usually works with. And my GC doesn't add profit on the subs. He send the estimates directly to me to see.

. And my GC doesn't add profit on the subs.

bologna

Basically, a 'mud job' is just putting a thin veneer of compound over wallboard..it can also be called a 'skim coat'. It is basically joint compound, rarely it is plaster.

Yes the guy has referrals, but what were the projects? Were they sensitive work on old houses to yield something which is like what might have been the original appearance, or were they gut jobs and remodels with no respect for the original house? From what you've said of him, I suspect the latter. Ripping out and replacing work with newer materials often yields an inferior result and costs more money than a decent job--he is pushing for the fastest methods to do the work, like someone who is primarily a 'flipper' of houses, not a true professional.

Despite your saying he isn't profiting somewhere with his subcontractors or materials, I don't believe it for a second...he is going to make money somewhere, otherwise he wouldn't be doing the job. Based on the information provided as to his recommendations for the work to be done, he IS suggesting things which aren't needed. With a baby on the way, and new home owners, he is seeing a prime opportunity to make some fast money.

Did you get estimates from other contractors and painters? That is an absolute MUST for any project. I know I'm sounding negative to you, but it is just common sense--I used to be a trusting person, but being burned one time too many changed that--and since a house is your biggest investment, you don't want to take ANY chances with such a big ticket expense. With a new addition to the family coming, you absolutely MUST save where you can, unless you have deep pockets, which you say you don't. Just a queston of curiosity: who put the idea in your head that the walls lead paint was a danger which had to be addressed by a complete removal? Paint chips are eliminated with vacuuming, unless you let them accumulate for weeks...and painted trim is going to be more likely to give them especially at corners...but again, the solution is to make sure the paint is sound and has a firmly adhered new layer.

Hi let me address a few things:
- I did quote other GCs and they were all more expensive. Now it's down to this guy and another one. So I am comparing both.
- GC didn't say to get rid of lead. Just mentioned it was another benefit of removing the plaster.

Thanks

edited to remove snarkiness.

This post was edited by maryinthefalls on Thu, May 2, 13 at 16:16

Not looking for cheap. Looking for fair market price.

There is nothing wrong with a fair market price, but make very sure that you both know exactly what is to be done--spell it out item by item and step by step. This also means saying NO to any unneeded work such as removing the plaster. Plaster only needs to be removed if the structure holding it to the wall has failed extensively and it is bulging away from the wall or missing in larger areas. From the words 'minor cracks' despite there being a lot of them, that does not call for complete removal either by the GC or the painter. Loose areas of plaster can be reattached with washers and some adhesives.
Make sure the painter understands that you want the cracks fixed...if necessary, ask another painter for his advice rather than trust just one guy even if he is the GC's preferred sub.

Also try to find one hour to attempt the suggestions for dealing with the cracks I made earlier--then you can see for yourself what works and advise the painter accordingly. One hour is more than enough time to try the solutions, the rest is curing time for the compound, which you don't need to keep an eye on.

In my 1880 saltbox we hesitated a few years to have rewiring done because we were told how much disturbance and wall repair would be needed afterwards...glad i waited. The very pro guy we found through friends did the entire home even adding a dozen lights and switches on our wish list without disturbing anything. (well, a few minor things...a raw piece of wood needing paint)
I do not see horror at all on your walls. go through room by room without GC/painter and take your time...circle troubled areas with chalk and what you would like addressed. (holes from window treatments etc) Use your tight budget on quality paint...BennyMoore fresh start primer. Just repair specific areas. Choose soft neutral colors without any contrasting trim. Best to use Low voc Aura matt finish using the exact same color for trim in a satin/semi finish. Enjoy your new home and learn its quirks and later on when doing your next addition project, you will have time and hopefully $ at that point to evaluate what is necessary. It is even much healthier, where sleeping especially, to not start disturbing walls and ripping out plaster to only find baseboards and trim needing replaced as well and even more added cost. Especially in a new home, or new old home, it is important to avoid an abundance of 'new'. Many fabrics and carpets and curtains and couches and furniture that need a long 'off gassing' time. (think new car smell) ...Keep it simple for now, washable cottons and small area rugs.
A year from now, a few hairline cracks many not matter at all.
In NYC many of us call it the 'strike zone'. The areas that are most visible from waist high and eyeline. Or a surface where good light hits that you see everyday. May just be cosmetic but needs to be fixed with more skilled detail.
Some of that can wait.

I agree with OldTime. Your contractor may well be offering the best solution within his expertise. We recently began a restoration project and I would say the greatest challenge is finding a contractor who understands what the point of restoration is. For example, yesterday I had a mason come look at the chimneys with the explicit instruction that I wanted a bid on how to best restore the existent structure and make it safely usable. He saw that about a three foot section of the 40 ft tall chimney has mortar that is deteriorated to sand and spent the next half hour trying to convince me to knock the whole thing down and replace it with cheap, precut cinder block sections.

Do I think he's a nefarious cheat trying to get more money out of me? No. I just think he has a completely different perspective from me on the goals for my home. If your goal is to restore and not remodel, and if your goal is to have the highest quality at the end of the day, then you need to find someone who will restore the plaster. Period.

I have to say, reading the comments I had expected some really atrocious damage, but then seeing the pics, frankly I see no reason why those walls are any kind of priority that would preclude taking the time (maybe after the baby is born) to either find a contractor with the proper perspective or learn how to DIY. It really isn't all that bad. I wish my plaster walls looked half that good, lol!

I agree with OldTime. Your contractor may well be offering the best solution within his expertise. We recently began a restoration project and I would say the greatest challenge is finding a contractor who understands what the point of restoration is. For example, yesterday I had a mason come look at the chimneys with the explicit instruction that I wanted a bid on how to best restore the existent structure and make it safely usable. He saw that about a three foot section of the 40 ft tall chimney has mortar that is deteriorated to sand and spent the next half hour trying to convince me to knock the whole thing down and replace it with cheap, precut cinder block sections.

Do I think he's a nefarious cheat trying to get more money out of me? No. I just think he has a completely different perspective from me on the goals for my home. If your goal is to restore and not remodel, and if your goal is to have the highest quality at the end of the day, then you need to find someone who will restore the plaster. Period.

I have to say, reading the comments I had expected some really atrocious damage, but then seeing the pics, frankly I see no reason why those walls are any kind of priority that would preclude taking the time (maybe after the baby is born) to either find a contractor with the proper perspective or learn how to DIY. It really isn't all that bad. I wish my plaster walls looked half that good, lol!

Curious, skuba, what you ended up doing, if you're still around.