Haven't read the book, don't know its contents, but I will NEVER surrender.

I once attended a wedding at which the congregation was asked to "pray for the bride to be submissive"! I walked out, clanging my high heels as loudly as I could. Submit THAT!

About the book:

"Compassionate and practical, The Surrendered Wife is a step-by-step guide that teaches women how to:

* Give up unnecessary control and responsibility
* Express their needs while also respecting their husband's choices
* Resist the temptation to criticize, belittle or dismiss their husbands
* Trust their husbands in every aspect of marriage - from sexual to financial...and more."

Doesn't sound unreasonable to me.....
(flame away!)

"I once attended a wedding at which the congregation was asked to "pray for the bride to be submissive"! "

I attended one of those, too...which included a paragraph-long admonition from the minister about why it should be so. There was VERY audible groan from the assembled 200+ guests!

A marriage is supposed to be a partnership and I always took that to mean that you split the tasks and responsibilities according to who does it better. If the husband cooks better its ridiculous to insist thats the wife's job. There are some men who are careless balancing a checkbook, hate to track the bills and pay on time, and women who are the same. I think that whoever is financially the most responsible should handle that part of it. When I was a bankruptcy attorney it seemed like some couples felt neither one of them should make financial decisions, or they picked the person who was the worst at it.
If you look at some homes, its apparent nobody has responsibility for any household tasks.
so I think surrendering to your husband is a great idea if he's a great guy in those areas. I don't believe in over burdening him. Your goal should be to make life easier for the other person. I don't believe that a woman should try to act like an incompetent little girl and let her man do it all and make all the decisions. Those women are a mess when the husband dies or runs off with some competent woman.

""Compassionate and practical, The Surrendered Wife is a step-by-step guide that teaches women how to:

* Give up unnecessary control and responsibility
* Express their needs while also respecting their husband's choices
* Resist the temptation to criticize, belittle or dismiss their husbands
* Trust their husbands in every aspect of marriage - from sexual to financial...and more."

Doesn't sound unreasonable to me either.

Unfortunately in my situation if I actually did that, I'd be bankrupt. I'd love it if my husband were an equal partner, but he is not, nor does he wish to be. Being able to trust someone to make good decisions sounds like heaven to me....

Compassionate and practical, The Surrendered Wife is a step-by-step guide that teaches women how to:

* Give up unnecessary control and responsibility
(hopefully, while retaining reasonable and necessary control, maintaining independence and being treated as an equally competent partner?)
* Express their needs while also respecting their husband's choices
(assuming of course that Hubby's preference doesn't automatically take priority over Wife's needs?)
* Resist the temptation to criticize, belittle or dismiss their husbands
(Sure - Hubby's doing the same, right?)
* Trust their husbands in every aspect of marriage - from sexual to financial...and more."
(Again - Hubby's doing the same?)

It could certainly be spun to sound reasonable, but somehow, I don't think "equals" is part of that book's core premise. Sounds more like "Father knows best" to me...

From the editorial reviews on Amazon.com:

According to Doyle, the wife who chooses to surrender must learn to take care of herself first, overcome the desire to have more power, and abandon the myth of equality.

when she "surrendered," letting him do things his way and make decisions for the family, he rose to the occasion, becoming a responsible and loving husband and making her feel protected and cared for.

Thanks, but no thanks.

sounds like a re-hash of "The Complete Woman" or "Complete Womanhood" or whatever that book was, where the writer recommended meeting your husband at the door wrapped in Saran wrap.

all about manipulation & a twisted sort of "power-through-powerlessness" doctrine.

just what it takes to grow a healthy partnership...

"The Total Woman"
by Marabel Morgan

Oh yeah, I remember that. It was like a manual on how to manipulate your husband while simpering.

BTW - does anybody here watch Mad Men on AMC TV? It's set in the early 1960's and really points out how far we have-and have not- come since then.

Still seems incredible to me that my own mother was born before women could vote. When she reached adulthood they still were discouraged from doing anything but be a secretary, nurse, or teacher -- mostly, they were raised to be future wives, mothers, and housekeepers. And if they were teachers, they had to quit when they got married. No birth control. Even in the twenties, pretty much all of her aunts had baby after baby until they either died or couldn't conceive anymore. When I was in high school in the early sixties, "shop" was for boys; "home economics" was for girls -- the roles still rigid.

I like things better today. Are men really so hard to get along with? Do we really need to be manipulated and managed? Society's still growing and changing but I've always preferred competence as a starting point for personal relationships, especially those involving co-habitation and child-rearing. I don't like the word "surrender" for either party in the description of how it should go. Maybe being pedantic. Maybe I'm just a-typical.

No, I don't think you're atypical, asolo, at least for those of us among the younger generation. Everyone I know (all of us in our early 30's or late 20's) expect marriage to be a partnership. My generation of women has grown up with the notion of women being equal with men -- not the same as men, but just as deserving of respect and the same rights as men. So the idea of surrendering to the dominance of a man, and giving him sole control over certain (or all) aspects of our relationship seems anathema to me and to most of my friends.

In my relationship, of course, we split up certain duties or tasks between us, largely by who is best suited or most interested in doing them. I clean the bathrooms, he scoops the kitty box, and takes out the trash. I deal with tradespeople or contractors that come to the house. My husband may be mostly in charge of the financials because he has a better head for it, but a) we discuss it together every month, and b) I can log into our Wells Fargo account and see and do whatever I think is personally necessary, if I need to. I also have my own personal checking account, and my own business account, neither of which my husband has access to. Somehow, I doubt that a "surrendered wife" is allowed that much autonomy.

"Are men really so hard to get along with? Do we really need to be manipulated and managed?"

Well, I think it's one of those "premise" things:

if you accept the premise that gender roles are absolute, that men think & women feel, that men make all the decisions & don't consider their wives any more capable of rational thought than the family dog...
then the only way women could get along with men would be through "management" & manipulation, just as the only way men could get along with women would be to take responsibility for everything, make all the decisions, keep their wives/daughters/mothers from getting into anything over their heads (education, jobs, financial independence, control of their own bodies).

but if you don't accept the premise, then, nah, y'all don't need to be managed, & we don't need to be controlled.

but there are still a lot of people out there, today, in the modern world, in our shiny new century, who *do* buy that premise.

Must admit I've known (and know!) a number of men and women who run their coupled lives that way. For myself, I would find it unendurable. I like rivkadr's description. People can decide their own "roles" in the union. There's stuff to do. Just figure out the division and take care of it.

I well remember many friends of my dad while I was growing up. Even as a young man I was amazed at how many idiot-spouses there were. In those days (talking '50's here) among dad's friends, the men were always the bread-winners. Gave their wives "allowances" to run the house. So many of the wives seemed to me to be synchophant/bovines...although I didn't know those words then. I hope they were good cooks, housekeepers, and mothers because they were obviously worthless for anything else. I don't know if that was "surrender" or capitulation or what for them but, jeez, those wives were doormats. And the men seemed like tyrants. Even then, I knew I could never live with people like that. I prefer a far different sharing arrangement than Tarzan/Jane.

Hmm, this has been a very interesting thread to me. Funny when I re-found the book I though "What the heck was I thinking when I ordered this?" Which I did out of desperation a few yr.s ago.

I wouldn't pass it on to anyone as it just strikes me as so insulting and degrading. Just wondered if anyone else ever heard of or read it. I don't think I finished and won't bother now. I think I surrendered enough of my life, now I want it back.

I have found so many relationship & self help books I purchased over the course of my marriage. The only ones I am keeping and re-reading are Co Dependant No More & The Dance of Anger.

I often wonder how some ministers misinterpret the meaning of a "Godly" wife/women. There is a Proverb that is thousands of years old which depicts such a women and that woman seems quite capable and not submissive. Although, of seemingly good character.

Proverbs 31

10An excellent wife, who can find?
For her worth is far above jewels.
(rare, precious)
11The heart of her husband trusts in her,
And he will have no lack of gain.
(trustworthy)
12She does him good and not evil
All the days of her life.
(kind Her Character
as a Wife )

13She looks for wool and flax
And works with her hands in delight.
(works joyfully)
14She is like merchant ships;
She brings her food from afar.
(goes extra mile to get choicest goods)
15She rises also while it is still night
And gives food to her household
And portions to her maidens.
(disciplined)

16SHE considers a field and BUYS it;
From HER EARNINGS she plants a vineyard.
(ENTERPRISING, prudent with money)

17She girds herself with strength
And makes her arms strong.
(energetic)
18She senses that her gain is good;
Her lamp does not go out at night.
(good steward)
19She stretches out her hands to the distaff,
And her hands grasp the spindle.
(diligent Her Devotion
as a Homemaker)

20She extends her hand to the poor,
And she stretches out her hands to the needy.
(compassionate, generous Her Generosity
as a Neighbor)

21She is not afraid of the snow for her household,
For all her household are clothed with scarlet.
(provident)
22She makes coverings for herself;
Her clothing is fine linen and purple.
(elegant)
23Her husband is known in the gates,
When he sits among the elders of the land.
(influential)
24She makes linen garments and sells them,
And supplies belts to the tradesmen.
(industrious Her Devotion
as a Homemaker)

25Strength and dignity are her clothing,
And she smiles at the future.
(poised)
26She opens her mouth in wisdom,
And the teaching of kindness is on her tongue.
(wise Her Influence
as a Teacher)

27She looks well to the ways of her household,
And does not eat the bread of idleness.
(manages her home)
28Her children rise up and bless her;
Her husband also, and he praises her,
(praiseworthy)
29"Many daughters have done nobly,
But you excel them all."
(distinguished Her Effectiveness
as a Mother)

30Charm is deceitful and beauty is vain,
But a woman who fears the LORD, she shall be praised.
(God-fearing)
31Give her the product of her hands,
And let her works praise her in the gates.
(honored Her Excellence
as a Person)

~ Proverbs 31:10-31

"I often wonder how some ministers misinterpret the meaning of a "Godly" wife/women"

Although I'm not into organized religon any longer I enjoyed reading your proverb. I think this happens a lot and misinterpretation of religious text or twisting it to meet personal or group agenda is common. One of the many reasons I'm not into organized religon.

A lot of that occurs in this book, IMO.

~Cat

If you're interested in God's ideas about it, don't forget to check out the Muslim version.

Yes, I have many muslim friends and my cousin acutally converted to marry his bride who is indonesian. I live where there is the largest muslim community in the US.

I don't think I would last long in a muslim marriage and my friends would agree. My thinking is way to forward and independent. Though I will say my muslim friends all have good strong marriages. But there are some ways they define marriage that just wouldn't work for me.

It is very interesting when you throw religious customs & beliefs into the definaition of what a womans role in the marriage should be.

I have come to the conclusion that perhaps I am just not good at being married because I don't want to be the one doing all the sacrificing/comprimising. A piece of advice my mother gave me long ago- "In marriage there is always one person who loves a little more that the other. Don't be that person." Gotta love mom, she just puts it out there.

~Cat

"...a womans role in the marriage..."

Can be whatever she wants it to be....as long it works. Different for every woman. Different for every couple. Still don't see "surrender" in it, but maybe that's what works for some folks.

When I discover that a book I own is not one I'd pass on to anyone else, I compost it.

no sense throwing all that good carbon into the landfill...

This has nothing to do with religion or political sides or any fancy ideologies,
As a man, women to be sexually available to their husbands? sure
and at the same time, men to be sexually available to their wives, as well! Plus on top of that, men have to make $$$ for her/family.
It is not EQUAL but it is FAIR TRADE!
Slavery? Maybe, but it's BY their very own FREE WILL, FREEDOM OF CHOICE, in the purest motivation to get LOVE!!!
If a human cannot give up/sell their freedom by him/herself,
how much freedom does he/she have??? ZERO!!!
A FORCED UPON FREEDOM is NOT freedom at all!!
Why? How can TWO people make ONE decision??? HOW?
They are both obligated/slaved for giving everything they have to each other... of course, if anything goes too extreme, we all know that may be dangerous...

Clear as mud.

"Compassionate and practical, The Surrendered Wife is a step-by-step guide that teaches women how to:

* Give up unnecessary control and responsibility
* Express their needs while also respecting their husband's choices
* Resist the temptation to criticize, belittle or dismiss their husbands

______________________

I must say, I honestly think Kate Gosselin's marriage c/would be a lot better than it is if she had really worked on these things.

Now -- 'bout the finances, I don't know.

Jon has his issues, too. Marriage is always a two-way street. I just think these things would have helped Kate a whole lot. Maybe still could, if it's not too late (though I don't hold out much hope for them).

It's the children who will suffer the most.

As for the Muslim wife thing -- sorry. No offense intended, but I don't want to have to walk behind my DH nor wear a veil, nor be treated like property instead of a person.

The concepts might be useful, but language is very VERY powerful. To use the word "surrendered" is as offensive as hearing a man say "I 'let' my wife take dance lessons." He may be doing exactly the same thing that the next guy is doing, who describes himself as "I 'encourage' my wife to take dance lessons." Something about the word "let" suggests domination and a parent-child relationship. I would bet that that sort of attitude shows up in the relationship somewhere.

If I see myself as "surrendered", I'm more likely to embrace a subservient position in my marriage. This is not a partnership, this is an agreement between parent and child. It can work....but it's not my idea of a marriage.

Now, I would say that in order to make a marriage work, both partners need to give up unnecessary control, be expressive but respectful of the other, and reduce criticism. But if I do those things in the context of the word "Surrender," then by definition, I lose.

Words are just words, but in reality they are very VERY powerful.

An old friend recently pointed out to me that the Bible (NT) commands husbands and wives to 'submit yourselves one to another in the worship of God'.

That sure gives a whole different perspective, doesn't it?

I much prefer "surrendered" to "controlling" -- regardless of who you're talking about.

IMHO, it's all about mutual respect and love.

I laugh when I remember the things various bible-believing people have told me over the years about how husbands and wives should conduct themselves. In my experience the translation into practice has invariably been male tyranny in the home.

Well submit doesn't sound much better than surrender "or" controlling. Men have used the bible (and women) to justify their behaviors for ever.

Mutual respect and love is the key, but I have yet to see a situation where Mutual respect exists between couples who embrace words such as surrender, submit, and control.

It's a matter of semantics, but again, the semantics are pretty darned powerful.

I have known many Christian couples who modeled that scripture I referenced:

An old friend recently pointed out to me that the Bible (NT) commands husbands and wives to 'submit yourselves one to another in the worship of God'.

When there is mutual submission, as this scripture indicates, with both husband and wife submitted to the Lord, there is no tyranny on either side.

I have known husbands who tyrannized wives, and I have also known wives who tyrannized husbands. My mother was the latter. She did a lot of the things I have seen Kate Gosselin do.

I much prefer "surrendered" to "controlling" -- regardless of who you're talking about.

IMHO, it's all about mutual respect and love.

asolo, I have not seen this in Islamic teachings or behavior.

This is frustrating me - Mara, it is a semantics fight here, and what I am saying is, let's not use words that in common, modern, english language suggest or in any way allow for a heirarchy (sp) in the home. Too many people see that word "surrendered" and they think of being captured on a war field and held down, so to speak. Let's use more empowering words, so that we can understand that BOTH HUSBAND AND WIFE are equal to each other, before God, and must be respectful, loving, kind, and humble. Does that leave any question as to whether it's okay to expect your partner to take your crap? NO, it doesn't. But the word SUBMIT absolutely does. Doesn't matter if the word SUBMIT is kinder than CONTROL, just the fact that you put them together in the same category is indicative of how the word SUBMIT is used. The original meaning of the word SUBMIT was not intended in any way to mean subservience, but it has become that way because of how people choose to interpret the Bible, and because of history. It is not right, it's not okay - that doesn't invalidate the bible, it simply invalidates human interpretation of such and shows how truly ignorant we are as humans.

"The original meaning of the word SUBMIT was not intended in any way to mean subservience...."

Better look it up. The meanings are, indeed, very close. I have no idea what you may be referring to as it's "original" meaning.

In any event, the bible is its own invalidation.

asolo, that is your opinion, to which you are fully entitled.

To me, the proof is in the pudding. I have seen powerful results in couples for years, even decades -- those who take it seriously and are not on any power trip.

Because my mother tyrannized my dad during all the years of their marriage, I know that's just as destructive as the converse. Mutual love and respect is the way to go, regardless of one's ideology. I do hope Kate Gosselin learns that before it's too late -- if for no other reason than her children's present and future well-being.