Thanks Nedra, I will try and figure out a way to address it. I would have hoped that she would have thought it important enough to address.

I understand your comments Jonesy, but that did not answer my questions. Do you really think that if your husband cheated on you, that the point at which he did start down that road was the beginning or maybe how you treated him or how your relationship had or had not been developing for several years was the real beginning? I am a loving husband who does not want to find love elsewhere. I would prefer to find it at home.

Sorry about not answering your question, yes in most cases I believe it starts before actually cheating, but that doesn't justify the cheating. We should never past judgement on either the husband or the wife in a divorce, because it takes both to create the problem. My BIL left my sister for another woman and I don't blame him in the least. I didn't like seeing her go through the misery she did, but no man could be happy with her. I do blame him for hiding $200,000 from the court and leaving her with only $5,000.

Current husband is dissattisfied also.He has never accounted for a two year period of staying out all night once or twice a week when the marriage was supposedly going fine.I've never had an affair,but I have reservations about sleeping with someone who may be sleeping around.If he's not ,why not call from the pub and say"honey ,it's a guys night out?".Some people think denial is a way to address the problem.I am in no way stating that this may be your problem BTW,I only want to give you a female's perspective.

Thank you cupajoe, clarify what you mean by denial is not the way to address the problem. I don't think I am in denial. I would talk about this anytime she would want. There is never a priority put on alone time with me with or without sex. It seems like it is almost critical to have everything up in the air and running crazy so that there is no time for us.

In my house conversation any time I want about a given subject really means that three words into the sentence I am going to be outshouted.Bringing up the nights he has not come home is met with "you are crazy"as though it never happened.That is what I mean by denial.And I don't mean to imply in any way that that is a problem in your house.I am only giving you history on my problem and why conversation about it doesn't work in this house.

I understand, anytime we begin to discuss sex or other issues regarding intimacy, things get tense and out of hand. That is why this is something I am considering. We can't discuss it, I still love her, I don't want to leave her or the child.

Just out of curiosity,what does tense and out of hand mean in your house?Who gets tense,you or her?I believe that true love will outlive most affairs.People have their human faults,and it is very hard to stay connected to someone in a long term relationship.Most couples travel together well some of the time and drift apart when they are growing in their different ways.They reconnect intermittantly.I didn't marry young,and had plenty of years and relationships with which to sow my oats when I was young.I think for my husband it is a different story.he hasn't had many relationships before me,and when he is unhappy with me I think he does what he wants to.I haven't actually wanted to follow him around and find out the particulars because I'm not sure i would do anything about it even if I knew for sure.With the happiness of my children on the line I'm not sure who would be more wrong,the cheater or the leaver.Affairs are for other people who can walk and chew bubblegum simultaneously,and make up convincing lies which can be delivered with a straight face.I doubt that i have what it takes,so for me it is out of the question.My ex had many affairs with women he never even liked.I think the conquests were a notch in the ol belt type of thing.I know he never fell in love with any of them.What would happen if you fall in love with someone?There are people that have sex without any personal connection at all,and others that don't want a relationship unless they connect.What if someone falls for you(who are only perhaps persuing an affair) and can't let go?Can you handle the fallout?I'd be interested in knowing how that works for the guys that do have affairs.

Notalltheanswers: I am a female who is also a wife and a mother. I just finished reading an excellent book that I believe will be an enormous help to your marriage, but more importantly to your wifes attitude about you, her marriage and her role as a wife and a mother. The book is titled: The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands and was written by Dr. Laura Schlessinger. I did not buy this book until I started hearing from some of my friends who had read this book about how it changed their attitudes towards their husband and how it changed ( for the better ) how they felt about their marriage. And so I picked up the book, and I started to read it. I saw myself within its pages, and how some of the things I said ( words) and a lack of desire for him, was destructive to not only our marriage, but to the wellbeing of our family and home. And the lack of desire was truly not personal ( meaning there was nothing "wrong" with him ) it was simply several years of marriage ( too familiar) and the demands of being a mother to 3 children ( their constant neediness ) caused me to simply desire my own space and i did not want anyone else "needing" anything more from me. But after reading this book, I understood ( finally) that my husband had every right to need me too, and to be loved and cared for, whether I was it the mood or not. Dr. Laura explained that there are many things we do in life that we are not really in the mood for. for example: do you simply stop working because you are not in the mood to go to work? Does she stop washing or cooking simply because she is not in the mood to do the laundry this month? Or does she let the baby cry and cry because she is tired or not in the mood to care for her child? And I finally understood each person has a need to be loved and cared for, and as a family, we try and meet these needs for one another. A few months ago, My in-laws and their best friends celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary. For their best friends, a party was held and they spoke about their love for one another, and how they still adored each other. My in-laws drove in seperate cars to the party, and avoided each other the entire evening. Although together for 50 years in marriage, they have lived seperately for at least 15 years...perhaps more. they are married, by they live seperate lives, and there is tremendous hostility and anger towards each other. I understand how marriages can reach this point. Marriage can be so hard. but it can also be something really, really beautiful if we make the small daily efforts and if is our desire to create a marriage that is beautiful. I do not know if she will accept this book from you and actually read it. i do not know if I would have read it if my husband had handed it to me. But because friends whom I respected told me about it, I read it too. And i have passed it on the a friend who I know holds alot of resentment towards her husband. Perhaps if you never mentioned it and she saw you hiding it in your sock drawer her curiousity would get the better of her, and she would read it. I don't know. what I do know is if she does read it she will be glad she did. There is alot of wisdom within its pages. I will discourage you from having an affair because if you look at the big picture, it makes it so so hard to put back together a marriage that is broken in this way. And if it causes a divorce, do you really want to see your wife re-married and your child calling another man dad? I understand this wanting to be loved and desired. I am hoping that you will both find this with each other. P. S. there are many weekend marriage seminars held around the country. I know for men that this is kind of a drag, but women can respond really well to these, and perhaps it will lead you down the path to the wonderful marriage you both desire. Let me know how things turn out down the road.

In my observation, husbands get cared for and fed much more often than wives. There was an article in the NY Times this week demonstrating once again that even when women are working full time they are still doing almost all of the child care and housework.

They also quoted a study showing that women's desire for sexual intimacy increased as the proportion of housework husband's did increased.

No offense to any man reading this, but I think a woman's sexual drive is based on affection, kindness, tenderness and touching without "grabbing" and a man's is based on the physical part of it. I mentioned a problem to my doctor, his reply was sex is just another way of expressing love. I think that is a pretty good example of what I am trying to say. He was a male doctor, I should have told him, "it's not the only way".

In response to Jonesy:

I am a man..I didn't take offense. But one thing I've noticed in our changing sexual lives is that the women actually don't listen well at all. I KNOW that men get the rap for that, but in most cases it goes both ways. I think that women THINK they are such great listeners and so very observant that they actually get fooled and stop completely.

Wanna solve every marital problem you might have? Every fight, argument, dissatisfaction?

From a man's perspective, just ask him.

Think long and hard about it. Ever wonder why prostitution is so much more popular for men than women? This is because men are largely satisfying a physical (or mental need related to physical) need.

The women I know seem to dismiss this drive of men as something easily ignored for long periods. This is the single most frustrating thing among men I know that are married. Our wives' cavalier atttitude about sex, while they want to talk about the "important stuff."

Uh, ladies...sex IS important for us. Men grow to love the women they are attracted to more and more. Women get more attracted to men they love.

aiki

Think about early in your relationship. I think alot of you women were VERY interested in this part of the relationship with your man. What do you think changed for you that causes you to avoid this part of the relationship now? Do you think it has to do with:

1. Resentment/Anger/Disappointment towards each other that has changed the way you feel about him?

2. The needs of your children take all you have to give, and it feels like one more person wanting something from you?

3. The familiar is well, too familiar. No longer that exciting?

4. The stress of " life " - mind is occupied with too many other things/people/to do lists/work & responsibility? Not to mention in-laws and other relationships that have become hard, or even painful?

5. Things he does are now a turn off...grabbing a part of your body everytime you pass him?

6. You do not feel " loved " by him and cared for, but feel "used" instead?

7. He puts you down alot, and expects you to now sleep with him...it feels like you are sleeping with the enemy.?

8. You have lost respect for him for some reason. Can you find the things that you do respect about him/ or that he does well and focus on that?

9. And ladies, would you feel loved and desirable and attractive and sexy and wanted if your husband avoided you and turned you down every time you tried to kiss him or get close to him? If he had absolutely no interest in you as a lover? How would that affect how you felt about yourself, and your marriage, and your place in his life if everytime you tried to hug or kiss him he would pull away from you, and tell you no?

10. If he is put into a position where his ego is stroked by someone else, he would be very vulnerable. and so would you in his shoes. Which then makes your marriage and family very vulnerable. For those of you with children, do you really want to find yourself in the situation of single parenting, step moms and step dads, step kids, and little money? New wives that don't want him to see your kids because they are a hassle to her and ruin her weekends, or perhaps worse, she is competing with you for your childrens affection, and they are now calling her mom ( or some one else dad ) and they are now showing up at everything from school meet the teachers, to soccer games where you and your friends once cheered together, and it is now you and your friends and "them"?

I think it is important to try and make the marriage a happy/good marriage now, instead of trying to salvage a really broken marriage once someone's heart is divided and they think they "love" the first one who comes along and makes them "feel good".

Men want their woman to simply love them. Women want that and so much more.

written by a female.

5

I hate being "grabbed" with a passion. It makes me want to tell him to go to h***, but I don't. I really enjoyed sex with my first husband, his priority was to please me and my priority was to never have a headache. But then headaches don't really interfere with a good time. :o)

me too.

Wow so much going on here. First of all, if your man is grabbing you, he may not know how to show you how he loves you that means something to YOU, but you do have an indication how he would know you love him! The biggest problem I see is that people attempt to show their spouse/better half, that they love them in the way that they best recognize love, not in how their spouses recognize love. If you were to grab him in the grocery store, bathroom whatever, that might be a great way to show him you love him. At the same time you need to let him know lovingly, what is the best way to show you he loves you. Also, sorry but the NY times is the last source I would go to get advice on any matter, especially one of such import. The theme that generally women take better care of men than men do of women, is a wide sweeping broom that does not do anything to assist with an individual relationship only to support ones own argument, actually deepening the resentment and driving a wedge between men and women. If what we are attempting to do is win an argument than maybe that would be important. I don't think for one moment that I am better than my wife or that I don't take as good a care of her than she does me. I don't think in those terms. My goal is to meet as many of her needs as I can. I would hope that my wife would by the same token attempt to do the same. That was the nature of the original post. My wife has chosen to ignore my need of sexual fulfillment in our relationship. I am frustrated, and it seems like it has fallen on deaf ears. I do not believe in the theory that because of X I cannot give you sex. I continue to mow the lawn, help with other house work, pay the bills, take her on vacations, out to the dinner and the movies etc. what would our marriage be if I just decided to halt things that I do for the marriage? More importantly, it does something to a male ego when your own wife does not want to have sex with you.

As I read this I realise we are all very different, there is no simple answer to marriage problems. What one person wants the other person hates. From my husband I wanted a companion, someone to talk to, after years of marriage I found I wanted to be approached and touched "just because", not always for sex. I feel like anyone woman could fill my shoes and the person I am wouldn't even be missed. When I look back on my life, I realise I have given and given until I have nothing left to give anyone. I always put everyone before myself and I am sick of it. Sorry to be so morbid, I am living the roughest years of my life. As the saying goes, "this to shall pass", I will survive this.

So many responses, so few answers, eh?

I think part of the problem you have is that you don't really know why your wife is no longer interested. She may be a little vague on the reason, herself.

Could be a purely mechanical issue, that she simply wants a different type of sexual experience. Of course, we gals generally don't like to say what we want. You have to figure that out on your own. Good luck.

More likely, however, she's not too thrilled with her life or the marriage, or some combination of the two. (Major generalization coming.) Men (as a rule) can separate sex from everything else going on in their lives. Women are more inclined to drag everything to bed with them. Motherhood is full of a daily grind of obligations and worries. So is marriage, with all the small and large irritations of living with someone.

When you shut the bedroom door, she's not just thinking sex. She's thinking of how you spent $200 on a router when she wanted a new end table, how she's heard that story about your brother 375 times, how ---- (fill in the particular rubs for your marriage). Furthermore, she can't understand how you could be so interested in sex when there are all these other small disappointments and trials that need to be addressed.

I don't know how you solve the problem (whatever the source) on your own. She has to be willing to try, too. I would discourage an affair. It may only be sex to you, but it will probably mean more to the other participant and it'll mean a heck of a lot to your wife when she finds out. Eventually, it will end in misery for at least one person.

Sorry, no answers here, either. Interesting to see all the other responses, though.

You are so right kelly. the only thing I would say is that everyone needs to feel like they are contributing to someones happiness. That is not happening here. What I came across the other night was a novel idea. What does everyone think of this. Instead of forever more, Marriage is a five year lease, renewable by both parties at the end of each five years. Think about that. If you are not happy the two of you take a mature approach and go your separate ways. It probably would make each individual work harder on their relationship, or more easily recogonize that the other person is not happy and not working toward a renewal.

How does that address the needs of any children?

If this was the norm, everyone including children would recognize it. Also, maybe people would think more about the initial decision to have children, and more about the decision to end the lease. Finally, is it worse for children to stay in a household that the relationship has gone south and everyone is bitter and angry or be a child of the ending of the 5 yr lease.

Well, there are already people who do this: have children with several men/women, date or marry someone for a few years and then move on to the next person. So in some ways, it already is the norm, depending on your lifestyle.

Notalltheanswers,

The point I was making with the times article was in response to the post immediately previous which was quoting a book of Dr. Laura's (which is the last place I would go for advice!). It was not meant as an indictment of you. Good advice on an individual couple would require both points of view, and more expertise than I have.

But the fact that many women work full time but still spend many more hours than men in household tasks and child care means that women with small children are often exhausted and too tired to be interested.

Well, there are already people who do this: have children with several men/women, date or marry someone for a few years and then move on to the next person. So in some ways, it already is the norm, depending on your lifestyle.

Notalltheanswers: I am wondering if perhaps you could find a weekend where you and your wife could get away alone, and put the responsibilities aside for a few days, and try and reconnect as a couple again. Perhaps you could write her a letter from the heart about the pain you feel as a man who feels rejected and unloved, and how this makes you feel as a man, and also how it makes you feel about your marriage. I am hoping it will open up the lines of communication between you so that you can not only share with her, but to see if she will share with you what she is feeling and why. She may not even understand herself where her desire has gone. If you can find a way to talk to her without getting angry with her. without blaming her, or attacking her, but simply by trying to understand her feelings about this, and figuring out this mystery about her. there have been some recent studies and articles about an enormous number of woman who are also experiencing
a complete loss of desire. for many women, this happens for a variety of reasons, and I believe child birth can contribute to this loss of desire. Perhaps it is the stress within our lives or something. You did not mention, does she work outside the home? You mentioned that you don't know if she is having an affair and that you would not get a straight answer from her on this. Perhaps this is what you need to find out.

I just wandered around the forum an onto the step parent forum, and after reading the bickering going on between bio-parents and step parents, you may seriously want to reconsider cheating or having an affair. talk about complicating your life...and the life of your child...

Notalltheanswers

I agree with what Kelly has to say. I am your wife. My husband and I had a great sexual relationship even during my first pregnancy. It dwindled quite a bit after our daughter was born but began to pick up after a few years, then I was pregnant again. Our second daughter is 10 months old and we are not having sex. Maybe twice in the past 10 months. Child birth does deminish sexual drive.

My husband is an attractive man, with a wonderful caring personality, many people truely enjoy his company and our daughters adore him. That being said, it is me and him that has caused our sexual relationship to become all but non-existant.

As Kelly said

"More likely, however, she's not too thrilled with her life or the marriage, or some combination of the two. (Major generalization coming.) Men (as a rule) can separate sex from everything else going on in their lives. Women are more inclined to drag everything to bed with them. Motherhood is full of a daily grind of obligations and worries. So is marriage, with all the small and large irritations of living with someone. When you shut the bedroom door, she's not just thinking sex. She's thinking of how you spent $200 on a router when she wanted a new end table, how she's heard that story about your brother 375 times, how ---- (fill in the particular rubs for your marriage). Furthermore, she can't understand how you could be so interested in sex when there are all these other small disappointments and trials that need to be addressed."

Don't discount this. I am not talking about an end table, but I am very busy, working and taking care of our children and home. Sometimes there is resentment when he does something that is "adult". Sometimes sex is the farthest thing from my mind as I am trying to figure out how to take care of something, when to do the shopping and remembering gymnastics class, and that doesn't include anything for me. I am learning this time around that I need to make some time for myself that does not include my husband or my children. This is hard for women, I believe because we have a tendancy to want to take care of everyone.

As for touching I tell my husband that I don't like to be touched when I know his real intention is to have sex. We are able to talk about this. I will say that you need to talk to each other. She needs to try to express her concerns and lack of desire. It could be that she wants you mentally and can't understand why she is not responding physically. You need to talk even if you can't put your finger exactly on what the problem is. My husband has a hard time with that and really tries to say things that won't hurt my feelings, that has led to major miscommunication. Now he will sometimes say "I don't know how to say this so I won't hurt your feelings, I don't like..." that helps both us.

You cannot have an affair and love your wife at the same time. We do hurt people we love frequently because of the familiarity and the long relationships we have built with them, but an affair is total lack of respect. For her as a person, your relationship, the love you profess, your children, and above all you. If you want to have an affair you should leave first, if you love your wife you need to continue to try.

Before anyone gets upset about adding the children, please think about this. If you can have such a serious lack of judgement and treat your marriage in such a cavalier way what type of judgement will you use with your children and how will you treat your relationship with them? Children eventually find out things their parents never intended.

MiMom, several things in this post.
1. There are times in a relationship that I do things for her that I don't want to do... There also comes a point in a relationship that she needs to do things she doesn't want to do for me. The problem I have is she knows what it takes to make me happy, and for "whatever reason" chooses not to. Do I stop paying the bills, being her handyman, cleaning the basement, etc. just because I am not happy in the marriage or with myself. There is an old adage that I feel explains it well for men. Don't tell me about the labor pains, just show me the baby! I was up at 5:30 in the morning yesterday, because she couldn't sleep and has some serious issues going on at work that she doesn't know how to deal with. I enjoyed the time that I spent with her on her issues. It is the first time we talked in months. I understand that after pregnancy, injury or illness or even during stressful times in your life sexual frequency may dwindle or stop altogether for a period of time. However, to have gone from where we were at the beginning of our relationship, to what has been going on in the last 5 1/2 years is unexplainable. 2. "you cannot have an affair and love your wife", and "but and affair is a total lack of respect" I know I love my wife and I know I could continue to love her and get the attention and satisfaction I am not getting at home. As far as an affair is a total lack of respect, the deminishing of my needs in this relationship, lack of intimacy both sexual and not, complete lack of communication and together time is a much more total lack of respect! Sorry maybe I am having a bad day.

notalltheanswers,

Is there any way that you could download this and show it to her and tell her that you wrote it? ( Perhaps with a marriage counselor). That you Love HER, and you need her and want HER, but that since she is unwilling or unable to be a wife in every sence...can you tell her that you are struggling with thoughts about having an affair? Can you tell her how painful it is that she is rejecting you in this way? Can you ( without anger ) simply talk to her as you have to us? What is it you fear? Can you ask her ( without accusations, blame, or anger ) just try and get to the truth ( perhaps with a marriage counselor to help you work through this without resorting to fighting, etc. perhaps she would listen to someone other than you to face this and not play the ostrich ( sticking her head in the sand because she does not want to talk about it). Five years is a long time for a man to be patient about such an important area of his life. By avoiding this, your resentment and anger beneath the surface, creeps into your marriage. But she must be a special woman because you are able to say that you LOVE HER in spite of it. I hope that you are able to find your way to make your marriage complete and to bring your wife back into your arms. Blessings to you both...

Divorce her and get on with your life. You want sex? Great! Have it! Have all you can stand!!! But don't be a coward and have it behind your wife's back. She'll find out you know. We women always do.. Be a man and leave if you have to, otherwise stop whining and trying to justify your "right" to have an affair. What a bunch of Baloney!

Persevere and work this out for your son. Give him the gift of an intact home with two parents who love him and each other. Otherwise you may be trading the temporary pleasure of easy sex, for the long term pleasure of a real family. Take a look at the step family forum, and the REALITY of problems will be your trade off. Stop and really think about how a new girlfriend really may not want your son around. Maybe she will be OK with it while he is small, but she may despise him when he is a teen. Perhaps she will always treat her kids great, and your son poorly. Perhaps your wife will hook up with a guy you hate around your son, or worse...one of your best friends. Things can get really, really ugly in a divorce. Listen To dr. laura for awhile and you will hear many, many calls from step parent/family situations.

Since you love your wife, go to the mat on this one and fight to make your marriage one of the great ones.

And as you already know, many women can be really into sex but lose interest after marriage, family responsibilities, work hassles and "real life" creep in. there is little that makes a woman feel "sexy" when she is up to her knees in laundry, school homework hassles and demands, problems with parents and their complications, bills, groceries, housework, and oh yea, a job.

I wish you and your family the best.

I think it depends on the person- but few of us get a spouse fresh out of the box nowadays- most of us married hand-me-downs ;) so 'where does it start' is both a question of 'where in the relationship did the communication fail' and 'how much of this was hardwired into this person when we met?'

I think your wife's issues predate your marriage, and that they are the problem they are now because she's never addressed them. whether it's a depression thing, a hormonal thing, or what- she's never explored them. if she's never talked to YOU about it- trust me, she's never talked to ANY of her doctors.

Advice? haven't got any. trying to get someone to take responsibility for themselves is hard enough- trying to get them to take responsibility for their spouse? forget it.

will point out one thing, though- if she's still getting her hair or nails done, playing with makeup, and acting girly- she's not dead, yet. when our libido goes, the girly crap is the first thing to go with it.

whether this means she's cheating, or just desperately trying to hang on to her own sanity is impossible to tell unless she's in the mood to be honest...and you're not describing a particularly candid woman.

I have been married thirty years, and have had very little sexual drive during that time. Hitting menopause two years ago killed it off permanently. It's not caused by any external factor, I just dont have that much interest in sex, period. But I have the kindest, most loving husband a woman could want, and adore him as a person and life partner. I would be shattered to find out if he was ever unfaithful. Especially since we have an active sex life, making love at least twice a week. True, I don't get much out of it, but I'm not an idiot. If I dont want a divorce or a straying husband, it's my responsibility to keep him happy at home. It's not like having sex with him is some big disgusting trial on my part. I don't mind doing it, it's something I do to make him happy,and show that I love him, like cooking a favorite meal, or picking up an interesting book for him from the library.

I can't imagine what women are thinking when they cut their husband off, do they really think he's going to just say "oh well, I guess I will shut down too". These women don't have a very good understanding of male biology, or else they are selfish in the extreme. Good grief, how much trouble can a ten minute quickie be a couple of times a week, if that's all it takes to keep your husband happy? It's not like you have to provide an academy award performance, just be affectionate. Sheesh. Sue

This is one case where I would get the book " The Proper care and feeding of Husbands" into her hands. It is written by Dr. Laura and is written about this exact subject. It will change her perspective and enhance your marriage.

Davissue bnicekind and everyone else. Thanks for all of your input. As an update we are now well into our divorce conversation. I have tried, she has shut down, it is not all her fault, except for her unilateral decision to throw in the towel. She claims that conversations I have had with another female discussing our relationship, and attempting to catch her in an affair have been too much for her to forgive me for. I believe that her inability to deal with intimacy has had more to do with it. Blame me, at this point we need to end before it becomes nasty. I am hoping that we can remain mature about this for our child.

oh, lovely-

what a response.

at that point, it hardly matters if she was cheating or not- she can't forgive you? for seeking answers to a mystery she's spent 5 years creating?

as a dame with a happy husband-

if she'd been willing to have those conversations with you, would you have NEEDED the advice of strangers? or is she just pissed at you for not forcing her into therapy 4 years ago, when it might have straightened her out?

hope things work out for you.

I suppose we would all be humiliated if we found out that someone we know - knew something so intimate and personal about us, and our marriage. But she created this problem by ignoring the needs of her husband, and ignoring a big problem in her marriage and refusing to address it. She needs to look at "why" she thinks playing the role of an ostrich as in sticking her head in the sand is an effective way of communicating and working things out in her marriage. Was she having an affair? If not, could there have been some form of sexual abuse in her past that she associates anything connected with sex, emotionally painful? Even if you both decide to divorce, it still seems as though you should try some marriage counceling to answer these questions for both of you to move on, and either bring closure to what was really going on in her thinking, or somehow repair what is now broken, with the help of a 3rd party to mediate and sort out the truth. It seems as though for either of you to move forward either way, it would be helpful if you could sort through it all and get the truth out. I think you both owe it to your son, and perhaps yourselves, to know without a shadow of a doubt, that you did all you could. It is so easy to "walk" in the moment of our anger and outrage, humiliation, disappointment and discouragement, boredom and restlessness, than it is to go to the mat and fight to work this out. Even if the end result is that your marriage cannot be saved, you both need to know that you did everything to at least try. So that you do not look back five years from now when one or both of you are remarried and it is too late, and wonder if you had tried harder, could your marriage have been saved, and could you two create something really great?

**P.S. I am not saying that you have not tried, but it doesn't sound as if your wife has.

davissue, thanks that's what i thought, but I am just after all just a man. As you see, when I first posted, it was sept of 04, we are now into Aug of 05 and we have not even started mediation yet. I remain frustrated.

WOW.........what a post! I found this post a couple of weeks ago and just now noticed when it was first posted. It's as if "notalltheanswers" is my twin, in a parallel world........minus the child. I, too, am going on six years of marriage.

What would I do if I caught my wife cheating? Simply, wish her well and advise her to be SURE she is not just another "conquest", but this other man truly loves her, as she is, and does not mind a sexless marriage.

When first married, I wanted my wife to KNOW she was my first concern. We met late in life. I am 57 now. In the beginning, she left for work thirty minutes before me and got home thirty minutes, or so, before me, depending on traffic. We commute. This, was her typical "welcome home" arrival. A light was left on to be sure she did not come home to a dark house. Her favorite music would be softly playing to make sure the house was not dead quiet. The central h/a would be programmed to be at her favorite temperture when she arrived and the coffee pot programmed to ensure freshly brewed coffee, as well. A love note always welcomed her. I know it sounds silly for a 51 year old man to leave notes, but I loved doing that. It was important to me. Once in a while, some of the notes were a "progressive" note, that is, several pieces of paper in a trail, each piece with a seperate part of the message. This note would start at the door and end at her side of the closet. Later, I overheard her talking to her sister, who lived in another state. She talked of the notes and mentioned they were becoming old, and the paper trails were a pain in the a$$ to pick up. This was in the first six months of marriage. Were these things appreciated? Well,she has never noticed she has not gotten another love note in over five years! She has never noticed, one by one, the other things quit as well! God says, in his Word, " do not cast pearls at the feet of swine". Simply put, this means do not give your very best to someone that cannot appreciate its value.

I said all this to convey by belief on intimacy, marriage, and cheating. Intimacy does not start and end in the bedroom.....it is a LIFEstyle! Not all intimacy must end with sex...........but all sex should be borne out of intimacy. There are times I could sit in the middle of the floor and pull my hair out in frustation. I have given so much, and yet still, so much to give. "Pink Floyd"......remember them?........said it best in a song. I have listened to this particular cd for sooooooooo long, yet heard this line in the song for the first time.........."unlaid and empty.......and turning to stone". I thought, Oh my God, that is how I feel and just didn't know how to express it.

Most couples secure their automobiles more securely than their marriages. They would not dare leave that "precious" vehicle unlocked, even for a moment, and even go to the extremes of alarms, so that if someone, no ANYone, comes near the vehicle it will not go un-noticed. Not so with their marriage.........they leave their mate un-attended, engine idiling, vunerable to anyone to hop on and take them for a joy ride!!! I listened to a radio report three days ago of a man being shot in the head, yet surviving, while protecting his vehicle from a carjacking. In a perfect world, each person in the marriage has a spot to stand. That spot is in a position, such that, any outsider trying to get to their mate, would have to risk life and limb, in an endeavor to intrude on that relationship. If either mate is not standing in that spot, in my opinion, has relinquished their right to even ASK their husband/wife if they are having an affair!!!

I would hope to think I would not cheat. Yet, I fear, one day at WalMart or Walgreens, my hand will accidentally touch the hand of a woman, in my same situation, as we reach for the same box of Sominex. God help us all on this forum! God bless all those on this forum who encourage the others to hang in there. Satan loves to keep us focused on what we DO NOT have, and it's a tatic that has worked well since the apple incident..........and it continues to work well. In EVERY area of our lives. Let's stay focused on the things we DO have in our marriage and not lose sight of them.

So, what would I do if I caught my wife cheating........let her go...........would I cheat?........honestly, I am sorry to report, I cannot answer that question. So far, I have not, but don't think for a moment I have not entertained the thought when I was tempted, TWICE. This will sound silly to some, but "You CAN'T keep a bird from flying over your head......but you CAN keep it from building a nest in your hair"!

I don't think there is any way to stand in the perfect spot to keep your spouse from idling too long.My husband met me when I was a cocktail waitress in a hot vacation spot.He made me quit.Interestingly enough ,I've been hit on more times food waitessing,or even just grocery shopping than I ever was as a cocktail waitress.I currently clean houses,and get a glimpse into the marriages of others.It is almost a relief to see that the issues are the same ones over and over.I've come to the conclusion that most of them are differences in gender.Men and women are wired differently,so the simple solution for each gender is usually miles from where their spouse would like to see it.I feel that I am so lucky that I spent a long time as a single woman before I married.Whenever I think the marriage is in a really bad state and I should look around,I conclude that the fantasy is always so much better than the reality(this was one of the most important things I learned as a single person.)The phisiology of a man makes it more satisfying emotionally to make a conquest.He couples and climaxes ,in most cases without too much thought on foreplay.on the other hand,women are left unsatisfied much of the time,especially in the new relationship game.Every long term relationship I've had invoved teaching the partner how to please me.I know that a night of illicet sex with someone else will never come close to matching a night with my spouse.And for me personally,I could never sustain the lie of another relationship in addition to my currant one without giving myself ulcers.I realize that the thrill of doing something taboo is what drives others,it's just not in me.Adding chilren to the mix is another story.There are few men that will raise another man's children with the love and devotion they have toward their own offspring.There are few children who won't rebel against a new father figure,especially if they still have a Dad out there that shows an interest.In the animal world,there are many examples of males eating their rivals offspring.There are plenty of men that never see their step children as an integral part of their new life.I know of two different men that had their new spouses throw their teenage boys out.I know many women who were sexually abused by their stepdads.Knowing ,and having access to all the facts associated with cheating,it would be an irrational decision for someone who's children were curently being raised in a loving home.

Sodbuster...can you talk to her? Can you share with her that you overheard that conversation years ago, and how much it hurt to hear her say what she said, and talk about you to her sister? This is an area addressed in the book "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands" as women can betray their husbands by complaining about them to their friends or relatives...It's a girl thing. But the book addresses how hurtful it can be to do this. Can you share with her your need for romance, (not just sex) but the art of romance, and of being romanced by her too. That it will lift life out of the mundane, to a happier place for you. I heard something interesting on the radio last week. It talked about a spouse who had one foot out the door. In other words, this spouse was no longer in love with his/her spouse. When looking at that person, he/she felt nothing that resembled love to them and they wanted to leave their mate. They were advised for 1 month to do the things that a person in love would do. Stroke the spouses hair as they walked by. Look into the spouses eyes and really hear them when they talked. Be excited when they walk into the house and greet them with enthusiasm! etc. etc. Just to simply "go through the motions of a person in love" and behave that way. Often times it changes the dynamics in the relationship, and changes how we feel for that person. Then a story was told...A grandfather was talking to his grandson. He told his grandson that two wolves live inside of him. One wolf is bitter, angry, jealous, mean, etc. The other wolf is kind, encouraging, forgiving, and fun to be around. he is the happy wolf. The grandfather explained that the two wolves were at war with each other inside of him. The grandson asked...which wolf will win grandfather? The grandfather replied...the one that I feed. And so it is with us, that if we feed the negative side to ourselves, (the angry and bitter thoughts, the mean/cruel hurtful words, the jealousy, etc)... that is who we will become. But if we feed the good side of ourselves, than that is who we will become, and how we will feel.

Do you think "Once a cheater, always a cheater is true", especially for men?

Anyone out there??

msmagoo...

I'll answer a cautious ...yes. It seems that habits are hard to break, so if one gets into the habit of cheating, then i doubt that person would find it easy to break that habit.

Although there are always exceptions.

Then again, i've been dating for 8 years! (no engagment yet!)--i've never cheated.

I know how you feel my husband was in the same shoes as you are, I did not want to have sex for a long time, I thought that there was something wrong with me but then I talked with my doc. and he said it was perfectly normal as you we were married 8 years, I got married when we were 20. He said women dont reach there peak till they are at least 30, he put me on testosorm cream and it has helped alot, he also told me that diffrent pills can make your sex drive go down, is she on any? Ask her to talk to a doctor. It is not fair to you and also get the book like that other person said the proper feeding of your husband, that will make her look at things in a diffrent light,.

Thanks Frank,
I guess, some men need attention from women to build up their self esteem, probably not a good choice for a BF. Good Luck on your dating, sounds like you're one of the good ones.

to notalltheanswers, i applaud you for staying with your wife after 5 yrs of her disinterest in you and sex, i definitely couldnt do it, you are a strong man and i think it shows that you really love her, to me on her side it just sounds like it has become a marriage of convenience to her. I dont understand her telling you that she is not feeling it, i guess sex, and she doesnt feel pretty thing if she knows something is wrong go get the appropriate help, i think its very selfish of her to put you through that and not do anything about it, especially after you are doing all you can to stay attractive to her and help out around the house, i think if more men would just start helping around the house and helping out with the kids they made, they would get more sex,anyway, sorry you are going through that and for five years wow, hope that the two of you seek some type of counseling for the necessary help or i see DIVORCE COURT in your future, i wish you well though

rosewood, she filed for divorce awhile ago, because she was furious and humiliated that he talked to another woman about their problems...I do not know if she was a friend of theirs of not. I think he also may have followed her to find out if she were having an affair, and I believe he said that they were unforgivable offenses. Sadly, they have a young child together, so I hope that he is a very involved, and loving father.

Hello all,

I lucked up on this site by trying to find answers to my situation. My spouse is cheating on me with his co-workers. He denies everything of course, but I've been able to gain access to his (our) bills that he hides from me. I discovered that he has been talking to several women, but one in particular that's going on know 1 year (she knows he is married). I found out that he has paid her phone bill by being noisy and discovered later that he has paid her phone bill a month earlier and the month after he and I discused it. I also found out that the two meet for breakfast, lunch and dinner frequently. My husband works midnight and I work days so he has the day to play. He works every night and volunteers for overtime, so basically we spend one night together maybe every two weeks. We have sex once a week, but he knows that I love sex and could have do it more then once a day. I also found out that he advertises online as a married man looking for a single women for a discret relationship. This sacred the hell out of me!
When I try to talk about my feelings and hint to him about what I know he totally goes off and wants me to shut up. He refuses to go to a marriage counselor dispite me telling him that it hurts me that he wants female friends (the secret ones). He tells me that he loves me and is in love with me and that there is no one else in his life and that he is just friends with the females. Is there any advise?

Unveil...recalling a line from the (very old) Walt Disney TV-serial Davy Crocket. (Yeah, I am that old!) "Be sure you're right, then go ahead." Seems to me you've got a decision to make.

IMHO trust is everything. If you don't have that, everything else is awful. If things are as you suspect, it would be a deal-breaker for me.

You didn't mention kids or other considerations so I'm keying on only what you described.

Notalltheanswers.....how did this all turn out? Did you divorce, and if so, is your life better or worse? How did this affect your son? If you had it to do over again, would you?