What does he do that is so annoying?

I think its your hormones,we all take it out on the ones we love,get a herbal treatment ,

Tracystoke... that is a completely idiotic post. I think you must be smoking an "herbal treatment".

Nancylouise,

I'll just try to hit the main points to answer your question.

He is a smart man and has an education, but it is impossible to have an intelligent conversation with him. The only things he will talk about are golf, automotive stuff, his past failed relationships (these I have heard so many times,I can just about repeat the stories word for word) and the plot of the sitcom he just saw. Try to talk with him about anything else and I get a blank look. When we are out with other people, he will sit and not speak at all, unless any of those four subjects come up.

When I try to have some sort of communication with him about things we need to do or decide, he tries to hush me by raising his voice, talking over me and being nasty and sacrcastic. I won't be manipulated that way and I just tell him I will leave until he is ready to discuss things rationally..yeah, I'm still waiting for that to happen.

He deliberately uses awful grammar. For example, he will tell people "Me and my wife don't like nothing like that" or "Her and him bought a new house". No disrespect to people who don't know any better, but he is college educated and he NEVER used to speak like that. I work for a school district so if we go to any school functions and he starts this hillbilly grammar, I just see the looks being exchanged. He once worked in a think tank, for Heaven's sake, and now he sounds illiterate.

Everything he owns, from his car to his underwear, is dirty, ripped, dinged, ruined or ready for the trash can. Everything we buy together gets the same treatment. He says he "does not see" mess, dirt, disorder, etc and I am, of course, crazy for trying to take care of our home, cars, etc. It's becoming a losing battle in the house. He now has ruined the den, garage, workshop with his mess and junk and little piles are starting in the bedroom and kitchen.

He shops for food about three times a week and buys the worst stuff he can find if it is on sale, For example, our freezer is stuffed to overflowing with greenish meat marked "For immediate sale only!" Our kitchen cabinets are overflowing with snacks he buys at the 99 cent store, stuff made in China, so God only knows what garbage is in it. Right now this evening I am counting 15 packages of snacks, four boxes of dougnuts, three packs of cookies, six reduced price danish thingies and a giant sheet cake, reduced for quick sale. He is a borderline diabetic, but every week the stuff keeps growing. A few months ago he bought 12 bunches of bananas, all dead ripe. He does not eat the bananas until they are literally black and the bugs are swarming on them. Oh - and he has a fit when I clean out the fridge and throw away old stuff. He will sit down and eat rotten lettuce that gets in the hydrator, rather than throw it away.

Not wanting to make this the world's longest post, but those are just a few of the things that are driving me up the wall. I'm not a neat freak, but I do like some order and cleanliness in my home and I feel like I am living with a crazy man. Yes, I realize this is an obsessive/compulsive problem, but he doesn't see any problem at all! I tried to get him to watch Hoarders on TV, but...you guessed it, golf was on instead.

Odd as this will sound, I would like to save my marriage. But I'm wondering if it is even worth saving.

OMG I'd be outta there....are you staying for kids or something? If not I cannot even comprehend why you are still there.....this guy's a train wreck.

I don't have much advice offhand, but am curious as to whether he was like this prior to your getting married or if something changed?

If he was always like this then I would guess he isn't going to change, but if he changed to this after you married, I would question if he is depressed or something else in that vein.

My biggest concern is the way he treats you, lacking respect for you and your feelings. Do you feel like he cares about how his behavior affects you? Do you think he cares that it might drive you nuts (rightfully so) to live with dozens of rotting bananas (which I personally would tote to the garbage can without fanfare or apologies).

Um, I think you ARE living with a crazy man. Seriously. You need to tell him that as much as you would like to save your marriage, you are wondering if it is worth it. To be worth it will require his participation and cooperation. He really needs to see someone about his issues and work on them before they get worse.
PS Throw out the bad food, let him have a fit.

On a side note...I make a lot of fresh banana bread for my daughter when school's in, and have found that you can mash up the overripe bananas into tupperware containers and freeze them (get all the air out), so if you want to bake banana bread and don't have any onhand, all you have to do is defrost it and you are good to go.

Hate to see 12 bunches of bananas go to waste...lol!

He sounds mentally ill to me.

First off - Tracystoke, I apologize wholeheartedly for being so rude to you. I think I am also losing it! What set me off was that what you posted is kind of what "they" always tell women: "You don't have a real problem, Honey, it's your hormones or maybe that time of the month. Take a chill pill." Anyway, please forgive me?

Yes, this IS a real problem. I have known DH for 30 years and he was always a messy guy, but clean about his body and still is. Lots of guys are messy, I didn't see a very big red flag there. We started living together 15 years ago, formally married 6 years next month. It has definitely become worse. I have read a lot about Obsessive/compulsive disorder and I think this fits the bill, except instead of being compulsively neat, he hoards and needs to surround himself with mess and things of no value, like used paper napkins.

Slowly his little quirks (and we all have them) started to get stranger and stranger. He "took early retirement" (translation, he was fired) several years ago but has income property and did not have to look for another job. I think not having to function in the workplace accelerated the nutty behaviors.

Yeah, it would be easy to walk away, but I care about what happens to him and I know I have been a somewhat stabilizing influence...at least I see that he gets some real food and clean sheets and stuff. As I said, most of the time he treats me well and is loving, but when I have to challenge the behaviors he gets very defensive.

Is he "crazy"? I really don't know. There are a lot of levels of behaviors out there that are "crazy' but the people function. (Some of them running the country, but never mind.) What I really am looking for is some way to deal with this. Isn't somebody on here a professional marriage counselor?? Amyfiddler, maybe?

What you describe would bug the h@ll out of me too. I know I would not like being around him, especially out in public with your co-workers. It does sound like your husband has been steadily going down hill into his mental problem. He does need to see a doctor/therapist though. If he won't go, you go yourself and see how to cope with his problem. Then I would hire a guy with a truck and haul all the crap to the dump. That is no way to live surrounded by junk. NancyLouise

I was serious, scarlett, he is showing signs of mental illness and clearly it's getting worse. Of course he doesn't think he has a problem because he's looking at it from the inside. Please encourage him to get help, and as NancyLouise suggests, clear out the crap. Otherwise one day in the future your DH may well be featuring on "Hoarders".

I think he is mentally impaired now, especially since you said he was well educated and not acting like that before. What you described is way beyond annoying...Hoarding, rotten food, dirty clothes, no communication, etc. is no way to live. I'm afraid it will only get worse unless there's a way to turn it around soon. I hope you can get him some help.

Scarlett, I am curious... what happens if you throw away things from his hoard? The dirty napkins and such? Do you take a trash bag and attempt to clean up your living space? Or are you tolerating it for some reason or another? Do you tolerate his trash because you don't want to make him angry or get into an uncomfortable situation? No judgment here, just curious. When you get to a point of frustration that seems to know no end, it is often easier to "check-out" and not get into the conflict, than to stand up, put down boundaries and demand that the other person treat you and your living space with a normal, basic respect. You said you avoid him rather than deal with him, to me that suggests that you are already checking out of the relationship emotionally- and you may be doing this because you have no other choice if he won't work with you.

It is surprisingly easy for the human mind to go "off track" and accept a new reality- such as living in a hoard and feeling it is perfectly normal. I've heard some experts say that people who live in hoards often become immune to them- they literally do not see the stuff around them anymore. I believe this is connected into our ability to adapt to our environment as well as our innate desire to procure resources. The good news is that he can probably change, the bad news is that desire has to come from him.

What happens when you make an ultimatum about something, or toss something without his knowledge? Do you even attempt this? If you get rid of something, like trash, does he become angry? What happens if you say something like, "Look, Honey, it's not normal or healthy to keep dirty napkins like that, they need to go out with the trash." That's a place where you need to stand your ground for your own health and well being- if his mind can't comprehend that dirty napkins must go, you might be dealing with a no win situation.

I do throw away some stuff - he doesn't miss it, so that lessens some of the mess. I keep most of the house clean and normal, he has his den, which is a mess, but not like you see on TV, with mounds of garbage or anything.

What kind of works is when I give him a lot of warning that I will be cleaning the den and I give him a date and time. This sounds ridiculous, but that's what I do. He gets upset and unhappy and supervises what I clean up, but he grudgingly goes along. It isn't a really good cleaning, but mostly reorganizing his stuff neatly.

Imagine somebody came to your house and took all your nice things and threw them in the trash - how upset you would be. That's how he feels. Yet we have to have some kind of order. It seems that when I get the den mess under control, it breaks out in food hoarding or shoes or yard saleing. Yard saleing - the hoarder's biggest hobby.

Hi Scarlett, I know it might take a lot of energy, to do this alone, as we all prefer to have unity with those we love. But this man sounds as though he needs to be treated like a child, but not as a child. If you set boundaries, of where he can have his mess, but not allow over spills into other areas, the rest of your home you can keep to your own standards. If he leaves his mess anywhere outside his boundary, just mercilessly throw it out or back into his arena, without saying a word, He will soon learn. When his becomes overwhelming for him, then suggest that you might help him to get on top of it again. This type of man, is dead lazy, but they are worth loving. Don't feel like a nag because you insist on your standards, but just be nice about it. He will appreciate you loving him, all the more. He might feel lousie about not working so be nice, but don't compromise.

Unfortunatley telling a man what he does wrong and hoping for him to get a clue and change it is like expecting them to be a woman. If a man feels like he is being treated like a child he will only act more like one. It defies logic to a woman but they dont think like us. The best way to deal with it is to compliment them when they do something right. I know you will say to yourself "That never happens" but it doesnt really have to. You just have to act as if they did. For example if he dresses like a slob and you cant really compliment his clothing think of something even as dumb as "Your butt looks nice in that" Even if its full of grease and holes the point is you are paying attention to him in a positive way. A man wants his woman to think he's great and if he doesnt believe she does then he just gives up. Working hard for a relationship is a foreign concept to a man. Its every man's fantasy to have thier wife think they are all that- but they are not willing to work for it if there isnt a gauranteed payoff. If they already have it they will work to keep it. If you come home and the house is a mess, find some spot in the house that is not a mess and say "oh did you straighten up the whatever? Thank You." Say Thank you quick before they can answer. Hopefully you can find something they do right and praise them but if not just remember you just have to say they did and have them think you believe it. Dont lay it on to thick but don't let them see any signs of you being annoyed. You can undo everything with one negative comment. Its not the easiest thing for a frustrated woman to do because women like honesty and saying what they feel and they want change immediatley but men do not respond to it. You will start to see them do things to impress you and they will do more and more the longer you do it. You may feel like your being fake but eventually you really will feel the things your saying to him. If you tell him " Hey honey Thank you for speaking proper english when so and so was here"(even if he didnt as long as he thinks you didnt notice) I don't really care what you say when we are alone because I know how smart you are but I just want other people to know" He will make the effort to stop far more than if you complain. No man ever thinks he's really that bad. He just thinks its you and youre a nag. So he will do what he wants unless it benefits him. Trust me I know it goes against every grain in your body but the results are worth it if you dont believe me try for one week. That means one week of NO negative if you mess up just keep going until you get a whole week with no negative. Keep a score sheet and messure your positive to negative comments.

I have to agree with those who think this is a sign of serious mental or emotional issues. You need to first help yourself--get to a therapist who can help you cope, and who can suggest how you can best help your husband. He does need help--hoarding is often a sign of serious issues. Hoarding stuff like used napkins, spoiled food? I cannot even imagine living like that--I'm not the neatest person in the world, but whew! I just really feel for you.

Obviously you care for him. Obviously the situation is unacceptable, and even unhealthy. Please, talk to some professionals--start with your own dr. if you don't know where else to turn. I do hope you find both relief and help.

I am reading and seriously considering all your replies, so thank you. I have a call in to my insurance to see what kind of counseling may be covered.

Right now he knows I have come to to the end of my rope, so he is being really nice and controlling the mess and hoarding - so that shows me he CAN control it.

jardin12, I don't think treating him like a child is the answer- that makes me his mother, not his wife. I don't want that kind of relastonship, although lots of couples fall into that. My parents did that and it was not a happy marriage.

jstbereal, what you are saying is positive reinforcement, and yes, that works a little bit. They use it very successfully for little kids and animal training! It's a good tool, though.

I am definitely going to go to counseling and may ask his brother to come and speak to him. That's a bit risky because it opens the situation to the rest of the family. They have no idea and I can't predict DH's reaction if I air our dirty laundry that way.

My DH has a bit of a hoarding issue as well. Currently since we moved into this home I have insisted he keep it to his office and the garage. I would like to at least have once bay in the garage to park in but it's not looking hopeful.

When it he starts piling stuff on the counters I throw it all in a box and leave it in his office. Luckily it's mostly papers/work stuff, electronic parts etc-so I can dejunk when he goes out of town and he never even realizes things are gone possibly because he has 3-4 of everything toolwise. Can't find so go run and get another. I do think part of it is he grew up very poor, so sees value in "stuff" that to others seems to be just using space. I personally think if you haven't used/worn something in the past yr it needs to be thrown or given away.

It is tough to deal with-I feel for you. If we had a food situation I'm sure that would be a breaking point for me as well. Do you think your husband might have had an acute onset of depression related to job loss? May people equate who they are with what they do for a living.

~Cat

No, he was happy not to have to go to work any more.

He says he is a creatve genius and my efforts to have him clean up are interfering with his creative process. "Did Picasso have his women b1tchin* at him to clean up his studio?"

He also wants me to dress and live in a way that is more inspirational to him, so he bought me a prom dress at a garage sale.

He's definitely losing the plot.

Yep, Scarlett. He needs to go to a doctor, now! A prom dress? Really?! NancyLouise

I know it sounds weird in just a few sentences, but I'm trying to look at this from all sides.

For example, I'm sure many of you have heard of the Watts Towers? This guy, Simon Rodia, - not an artist- collected all kinds of junk and assembled it into several towers he made. I mean really junk, parts of old babydolls, bottle caps, you name it. These are today considered an artistic and cultural work of folk art and are protected by the state. People come from all over the world to see the Watts Towers, Google it and see.

So what if I had been Simon Rodia's wife and told him to get that junk out of here and stop messing up the front yard? I don't know if he actually had a wife and what she thought of these towers, but sometimes the spouse is just crazy and sometimes they see something that maybe we don't see. I wonder if Lee Krasner told Jackson Pollack to stop dripping all that paint and clean up the shed? And everybody gave up on VanGogh - he was a nut case, that's all they saw.

So I wore the prom dress around the house for a day. It was kind of scratchy and the zipper didn't go all the way up, so I ditched it today. Right now DH is trying to cut the grass in the back yard in a herringbone pattern, but I can't see it. Maybe that is the problem?

I think it takes a certain type of person to see the world in the way people Rodia, Van Gogh and your husband see it. As long as it is the wonder that keeps him moving and not the junk that is bringing him down, I don't see that it is a problem. You don't have to live with it, but if you want to stay together, you'll have to guide him on what is reasonable. If it gets too far outta hand, other people will intervene/interfere. Keep him grounded and you'll be fine. Some days, take a break from it all and get outta there if it helps you to be a better spouse. Don't worry too much about his annoying habit on that day, so you can be a better you for him. That's how to cope.

Or just get away from it. I had to get away. He's super smart and creative, but I couldn't live with the mess as often as was necessary. So much so, the first thing I did after he left was clean up. My son would go around telling people "I have a clean house" for the first month. I had to tell him to tone it down so people wouldn't get the wrong impression. It wasn't awful before, just irritating. But it's much nicer now, by contrast, a "clean house". Read normal here. It has its share of dust. But he can come up with the most amazing ideas. He decided our first house needed a pass through window from the kitchen into the livingroom. So he got up and cut a hole into wall. He did get around to tiling it and it opened up the whole house, and was my favorite thing in the world! I could decorate it for the holidays, or sit in the sun at the bar with my cuppa... it was fantastic. But only he saw it before the transformation. There were more things like that, but I won't bother you with those, you get the picture.

One can either take what goes with it or they can't. I couldn't. Along with other things. Such is life. But it aint black and white. I hear ya. Wear your prom dress and live in that wonderful world he inhabits with joy.

That's the thing though, rob. Scarlett isn't happy or joyful to be in the situation she is in. At least that is how I read it. She wonders if the marriage is worth saving. So I don't think she wants to keep things as they are or be in the mess that hubby is creating. I'm sure it is depressing for you too Scarlett. Being around dirty, unhealthy and unsanitary areas and not being able to clean properly. I still say the best thing is to get him to a mental health specialist and start throwing things out. He can have his den and garage, but that is it. He shouldn't be able to take over the house with his hoarding. NancyLouise

Whatever you do, do NOT throw things out until you get someone on board (a mental health professional) with you, or you get your husband's permission. If it's truly hoarding. It can cause the deepest chasm of a break in trust for him regardless if you stay with him or not.

Rob33, I feel that you have given me really sound advice. Originally I did not mean to tell all our stuff on here, but was looking for some ideas on how to deal with frustration. I like the idea of taking a break and letting go for a day. I guess you have to have lived with a person like this to understand.

No, I am not going to live in a mess, but just wading in and tossing things would be the worst thing I could do. And that would be a temporary solution anyway. His trust would be gone and the stuff would pile up again. Maybe he can rent a "studio" somewhere.

Tonight I have flowers falling on my keyboard because he brought me a nice bouquet, but when I went to get a vase, he cut off all the stems and placed them in my hair. I don't mind, it looks kind of nice...but he has some in his hair, too! Freaked out the pizza guy...Never a dull moment with my "crazy" one-of-a-kind husband.

You're making me smile broadly Scarlett! You go girl! Yes, it takes a special person (YOU!) to recognize what they have right in front of them.

What happened to your husband after you cut him loose? Did he do ok? Did he find anoher woman to take care of him?

Yes and no. He's still being creative, but she's controlling, running him into the ground. I care what's happening, but he won't listen to me. It's so bad his siblings won't talk to him any more. drat! I wish he could turn his efforts into something that paid him good money. He also lives in a very poverty stricken area of town. It's sad. Poor fella.

Bad day today - somebody called - when they know you hoard, they go out of their way to give you their unwanted stuff - and said they had a BIG load of bricks. so off he went to get the bricks. Now I have bricks in the driveway, a million bricks, I could build an apartment building. Then he went to the grocery store and came home with 20 bottles of salad dressing, on sale. Should be a life time supply.

I went to counseling alone twice, second time I came home to find all our nice dining room chairs outside, superglued into a tower and DH happily spray painting the whole thing. I told him right there in the driveway that I was leaving unless he went to counseling with me.

He saw the counselor once and she referred him to a psychiatrist, who diagnosed obsessive complusive disorder and bi-polar. So now he is an out patient and on heavy meds.

So now the hoarding is somewhat under control and I can clean up the mess, which is a blessed relief. But DH just sits there in front of TV, doesn't even know what he is watching. No more creativity, no more spontaniety. Yesterday he roused long enough to say,"You know what we are? Mr. and Mrs. Beige, Mr. and Mrs.Gray."

I wake up at night and I think, what have I done? Is this really the right thing to do? It just feels so wrong.

I'm so sorry Scarlett. I think perhaps he is on the wrong drug cocktail. Unfortunately with psych meds it really is trial and error finding the right combo that works. And it is hard trying several different times to get it right and then waiting 4-6 weeks to start seeing changes from the meds.

Don't give up, my heart goes out to you. From what I've read on this post my gut is telling me, OCD-BiPolar I'm not so sure?It's very easy to misdiagnose the creative artistic personality-The creative mind truly works and views the world differently.

I would lean more toward clinical depression/ocd, but those are just my thoughts..Are you comfortable with the psychiatrist he is seeing? Please don't be offended by my asking but does schizophrenia run in his family tree at all? It often manifests in early adulthood. Does he have hallucinations at all?

These are questions I would ask your/his mental health care provider..early diagnosis is best of course. I feel his sadness and your worry/frustration.(((Big hugs)))
~Cat

Thank you, Cat. Very much.

I don't know about the psychiatrist, having no experience w/them, He seems ok. The meds have a lot of side effects, I don't know how anybody could take them and go to work, but lucky for us, DH doesn't work. Lucky I have a pretty good job with good insurance.

No mental disorders in his family. No hallucinations that I know of - the meds give him some pretty vivid dreams.

I left that mess in the driveway because I did not want to deal with it - the trash guys would not take it unless I broke up all the chairs and got them into the trash can. Some guy came around wanting to BUY it as a sculpture! He has a gallery downtown. It's things like that that make me question if this is the right thing or not.

It seems like the vivd dreams are a common side effect of most psych meds/ssri's. I even get them from Ambien.

So did you sell the chair tower to the gallery owner? Honestly that is awesome, perhaps your husband seeing someone else in the art community that gets his vision will help lift some of his depression and help things along.

I hear you, I was on a SSRI for a few years and the first month was really rough getting adjusted-I felt very flat and out of sorts. I've been off for quite a few years but there are times when I feel my depression is close to needing meds in order for me to get through. I feel for both of you.

It's a uphill battle then a coast for a while..Hopefully today finds things improving for you both. He is blessed to have a supportive partner and it sounds like he shows you that in special and unique ways. And yes, I too am grateful to have health insurance every day-hopefully soon we'll all have at least some basic coverage.

Cat