Patrick, If I were just comparing leaves, I'd say wichurana is very close. I've got R. wichurana growing under R. laevigata and a steathier, penetrating thornier b@#$tard my goat-gloved fingers have never met (except for R. sempervirens). Somehow, the sprawl of wichurana doesn't seem to have been selected for in its well known offspring. And if Peggy Martin gets as big up here as it is in William Welch's photos, it will hold its own with its massive kin rose 'Gardenia' although PM will do it with what to me is more handsome foliage. What will be the kicker is if PM reblooms in fall along with some other ramblers, but its going to take time and a wet summer and fall to test that one and see how it does compared to other known ramblers. Mine hasn't dropped a leaf since it came to TN, lived in the kitchen for a week or more, got planted in the middle of a drought and had a less than wonderful drip head watering it. Other roses should be as willing to thrive. Ann

I can guarantee that you would not be disappointed in this rose! You cannot kill it, in fact it seems to thrive with neglect! I bought this rose from a grower in SC and basically left it in its little original pot for a full year and then some while sitting in an old herb bed by my patio. During that time it threw out huge laterals across my patio like an octopus! Then on a hot day just before it was about to bloom (it was completely covered in buds) I did the biggest no no in the gardening world, I dug it up and because the rose had grown through the pot and into the ground I had to hack off most of the roots. I literally dragged it across the yard and to the fence we had just had installed. Well the ground there was so hard that I couldn't cat a proper hole so I just did the best I could and packed some of the hard clay dirt around the exposed roots. I cut off most of the laterals and watered and left it alone. I basically forgot about it, and then decide to go see how it was doing, well as one would imagine it didn't look to good at all, in fact I would have said it was toast. So I left it again and figured I would dig it up later. A week later that rose had put out a bunch of new laterals and was covered in new growth! She even bloomed again that same year! Now she is the biggest rose and healthiest rose I have and she's the youngest too. An absolute beauty! And to top it all off she produced a seedling while she was in that herb bed and now I have two of her! Best rose ever!

terrene, what is your recipe for your suet log? Where did you get the log? Did you make it? I am wanting to provide some food for BBs but haven't found the best way to provide it. I am not wanting to get into mealworms since we have tons of natural insects in our area. I am in North Texas...we have BBs all year long. Last season I had one of my boxes claimed by chickadees & then the BBs took it over before the chickadees laid their eggs. I have 3 boxes up in different areas of my yard because I also have titmice that use them. I am planning to put up 2 other houses in my neighbor's yards so I can have the boxes at least 100 yards apart. I had only the one nest last year that I didn't have enough of a snake guard on it & before I realized it...4 of the five BB babies were eaten. I was so UPSET. It probably was the same rat snake that ate a nest of mockers in my front holly bush! I was SICK! This winter I am putting up 5 ft PVC slicked & tons of netting to prevent this from happening again! I am planting elderberries for them as well as some other native berry plants for the winter. They start their first nesting here usually in January or February. We usually have 4-5 broods a season. I'm hoping to get more nesters once I have more boxes up in the proper locations. I also have a lot of trees in a dry creek bed & I have lots of woodpeckers & holes that some of the BBs probably use. We have both wooded areas & open fields in the area I live so there are a ton of BBs. I have never had them come to my birdbathes because of all the tanks for livestock in our area. We are in a suburb that still has lots of farming & ranching going on. Lots of cows, goats, & horses in our area. I also have housing up for martins but haven't been successful in attracting them yet. This will be my 7th season for trying. One year, I think I had a very aggressive male BB that used my martin housing & perches to hunt from! I blamed him that year for scaring any potential martins away. I am hoping this spring will be both blue & purple!!! LOL I gave up last summer & started focusing on butterfly gardening. So now I'm not only a "BIRD" nut but also a butterfly nut! I raised a dozen monarches & 6 Black swallowtails & have at least 5 crysalises left that will hopefully wait until spring to eclose! I lost one last week that's wings didn't open & it died. :o( I have used sialis to get lots of info from! It is the best for BBs I have found! Luck to all BB'ers!!! ;o)

Pagan, yes, some obesum hybrids are evergreen under such conditions. The one in the first photo has never shed a single leaf (I removed a few near the caudex myself). The one in the second photo has shed maybe 5 leaves in total. Probably a drought response (I forgot to water the plant). I do not plan to repot them anytime soon but something is clearly "going on" inside the Smart Pots. ;-) One of the Smart Pots now has a curved, oval underside, not flat. It almost needs support. Otherwise it would tilt. I suspect that some big roots are causing this distortion. ;-) I will document the good stuff below when I repot the two obesums.