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Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

Posted by doodlevw (My Page) on
Fri, Jun 24, 11 at 15:33

I will try to make sense of the issue and any advice would be great, because I am lost on what to do.

Here is a little background: My fiance' and I were together living as a married couple for 6 years and because of things we both did, we separated for about 1 1/2 years. We got back together and worked everything out and have been better than ever. The entire time we were together I got along GREAT with his entire family. No problems at all and they were hurt by our split because almost more than we were.
After we got back together we decided that we were going to get married. His mother cried tears of joy, his dad was very happy and his brother didn't have an issue. Since we are both bringing things into the marriage we agreed on getting a prenup done. What my fiance' proposed was we each keep our property and split martial property 50/50. The family has a farm that I do not and have never wanted. They wanted it in the prenup that I did not want land, payments from the land, oil rights etc. to that at any point in time. I agreed 110%, its not mine, I don't deserve it. The agreement was to have spousal support and that I got nothing of my fiances' in the event of his death (even after 20 years). That was all of his attorneys idea.
I met with my attorney and he said that I should get spousal support, land payments, items of my fiances in the event of death and other things. I said no to it all execpt for his personal property. I did say that instead of 50/50 that if its under 15 years when we get divorced, whoever files only gets 25% of the martial property worth.
Fast forward a couple days and all hell breaks loose. His family wanted me to have nothing of his if he dies. NOTHING. They didn't want me to have the land/paymens/income ( I didn't want it anyway). The family, mostly his brother has now convinced his parents that I want his house in the divorce, spousal support and part of the farm. His brother has made up several lies, called me on the phone and said nasty, nasty things, got his mother lying to me, his dad won't speak to me and the text messages from the brother are unreal. I kept my mouth shut with the family until I completely lost it after I was called a money grubbing b*tch, a wh*re, a dependant woman, my kids are worthless and I am a piece of white trash. After that I couldn't take it anymore. THE BEST PART??? I even invited his MOTHER on our honeymoon! The woman has worked hard every day of her life and has never been anywhere. She wanted to be there when her son got married and so I begged my fiance' to let her come to Vegas for the wedding and for her to be able to have fun. Who does that???
Now, the family is at war, I was supposed to be married 2 days ago, I cancelled everything and I, ME, JUST ME, paid for all deposits, paid for the cost of the wedding that didn't happen and they are still cussing me and the brother just won't stop. I know that I am not in the wrong won bit. I have given up alot to show them I do not want their money or anything else. I am moving out of my home to move into his house that is half the size, I've had to get rid of/sell/give away 90% of my things because he doesn't have the room plus everything in the prenup and they just won't stop.
The worst part is the position that my fiance' is in. He is stuck between me and his family and its not fair at all and I feel horrible about it. He still wants to get married, but I do not want to be a part of that family at all.

Here is a small recap:
His Attorneys Idea
50/50 split of martial property
in event of divorce

no spousal support

nothing in the event of death
(finance' disagreed)

No land/payments/income

My idea:
before 15 years
25% of martial for the
one that files, 50%

No spousal support

His personal property upon his death, (which he wants me to have all of it)

No land payments/income/rights anything

I did also want to put in the death part that if we are separated and filing for divorce that I receive nothing.

I make more than he does and my house is worth more. I have never depended on a man and am more than capable of taking care of everything in the house etc. I work 40+ hours a week.

DOES THIS MAKE SENSE THAT THEY WOULD DO THIS TO ME???? I was being more than fair and they are treating me like I did something wrong. They are ALL about me wanting the land and they have been told 150+ times (no lie) that I do not want it.

WHAT CAN I DO??


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

Why in the world does his family have any idea at all about the prenup and/or the terms of the prenup??? Sounds crazy.

What can you do? My knee-jerk reaction is: nothing. It's up to your fiance to step up and get this apparently crazy family in line. What is his stand?

Very strange - somehow they've decided that you're the enemy. Just because of a prenup? Again - that's none of their business. They shouldn't even know about it. Too bad the info was shared with them.


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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

My fiance is on my side, but wants the family at peace. Since the family land was in a prenup, that is all they SHOULD have known. They told him (and he believed them) that they had to sign our prenup. I lost it and couldn't believe that he believed that crap. He now understands that they have nothing to do with it and still wants to get married. I am unsure given all thats happened. His brother even convinced the dad that I got an attorney to take more of the land because there was no reason to have one. HELLO?? If I didn't have one to look it over then it would have been the same as toilet paper.
If I would have wanted payements, an oil well, something from that damn family after 5-10-20-40 years then I might understand.


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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

"Does this make sense.....?"

Doesn't have to make sense. It just is. For whatever their reasons, you're persona non grata.

Have to ask....was there alcohol involved in the verbal exchanges you described? Sounds to me as if too severe to be engaged in straight up. Actually, I'm hoping there was booze involved because if this is how you folks behave normally, there are more issues to consider. In terms of making up -- if you want to -- you could always start by blaming the booze. You said you "completely lost it" also so I'm suspecting two sides to that exchange, you recalling theirs and them recalling yours.

Agree with suzieque about the pre-nup. Not family business. Your and fiance's business. However, that race is already run and the damage done. Should have been your fiance's to handle but wasn't handled and that's just what is, now. I'm suspecting significant wimpiness there along with considerable lack of brilliance. He never should have let this begin. And upon the blow-up you described, should have stepped up at once. Would cause me to re-evaluate that person I was considering tying up with.

What can you do? About the family.....nothing. Done deal. They hate you. The things that were said cannot be unsaid. If those things you described were, in fact, said, I couldn't have anything to do with those people. However, if you think you're going to be married to this fellow without his family in your life you need to reconsider the whole thing. Is that how you want to live?


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RE:RE:RE Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

When I say I "lost it" that was me yelling that I didn't want the damn farm, I was not dependant, how dare he say those things etc. Nothing bad, just truths. I am not a drinker and if they were drinking I can not say for certain.
I agree he should have stepped up from the begining, he thought talking to them on a daily basis telling them I didn't want the farm etc. would get them to stop and he never put his foot down. He is now ready to. I don't think I could ever forgive his family. That makes the whole situation harder.


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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

Did this bad stuff come just from the brother or from everybody? Any chance of separating out an "instigator" and making up with the others?

Pre-nups don't have to be like this. If the family farm needs to be off the table and it's OK between you and fiance, just do that. Tell the family it's done but NOTHING more. Get it off the table plus draw the line between their business and yours.

"Nothing in the event of death"? Nobody with a brain would agree to that. Spouse gets it all unless a few (I did say few) personal items desired to be earmarked for designated others. Exception would be the farm interests, as you said. That would need to appear in the will also to avoid potential contest.

Do not confuse pre-nups with wills. They can be mutually reinforcing but they are separate documents. The idea is to avoid controversy in the event of some undesired happening. Pre-nups can only be changed via mutual agreement. Wills are per-individual. Individuals can change them without consultation with or consent of any other party. Interesting your attorneys didn't speak of it.

Divorce? Itemize personal property that will remain yours. Otherwise 50/50 on marital (not martial) property. If you're really nuts about this, you can add stuff over time but you'll have to deal with on-going agreement/disagreement if you want to do it.. In most cases the passage of time makes just about everything "marital property". Since you're both employed, no spousal support. In the event of incapacity (talking about accidents and illness, here, not unemployment) something should be in there.


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RE:re Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

His brother is the one that started all the lies and made it sound completely different than what my fiance and I agreed on. He has some hidden agenda and we can not figure out what it is. We were both going to have a will drawn up, but with his line of work we wanted a death clause just in case it takes us a month or two to get it done and something would happen. Everything has been thought of for both the will and prenup and we are in 110% agreement. His family has just made it to where we don't even wanna think about marriage, almost hating the word. WE tried telling them it was our business, it had nothing to do with them and the brother just won't drop it. It is awful odd that since I am the bad guy now that his brothers name got put on the farm stuff. I personally think that was his agenda.


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PS to previous......

Probably obviously, I'm not an attorney. I have been involved as advisor and/or trustee and/or personal representative in several situations that involved pre-nups and wills and that's all I bring to the table.

There are a few actual attorneys that post here occasionally. Would be useful if any among them would choose to respond.

Overall, I have the opinion from what you've described that your situation is relatively simple. Most pre-nups and wills are practically fill-in-the-blank boilerplate. My caution for you is that if it's being made complicated that, by itself, would be a red flag.


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RE:re Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

His brother is the one that started all the lies and made it sound completely different than what my fiance and I agreed on. He has some hidden agenda and we can not figure out what it is. We were both going to have a will drawn up, but with his line of work we wanted a death clause just in case it takes us a month or two to get it done and something would happen. Everything has been thought of for both the will and prenup and we are in 110% agreement. His family has just made it to where we don't even wanna think about marriage, almost hating the word. WE tried telling them it was our business, it had nothing to do with them and the brother just won't drop it. It is awful odd that since I am the bad guy now that his brothers name got put on the farm stuff. I personally think that was his agenda.


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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

"....his brothers name got put on the farm stuff. I personally think that was his agenda."

The plot thickens.

So, then.....if the brother's name is on all the farm stuff, your fiance has no remaining interest? Problem solved?


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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

Just curious. Why would you want to marry someone who blabs everything to his family, doesn't have the guts to tell them when to stop, can't be bothered to make room for your stuff, and has not persuaded you to elope?

I get the feeling that you are on the fence about this marriage, not just the in-law troubles.

There is no advice we can give you on handling people who allow their son (the other one, not your fiance) to push their buttons and will not listen to your fiance. Nothing. You are not part of their family and they apparently will not listen to reason.

Is your fiance willing to cut them out of his life until they apologize? No? Then I suggest that you move on. Six years is nothing compared to a lifetime of suffering.


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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

Like colorcrazy, I have reservations about the fiance vis-a-vis his ability/inability to step up. The "lifetime of suffering" idea does, indeed, suggest itself.


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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

"Just curious. Why would you want to marry someone who blabs everything to his family, doesn't have the guts to tell them when to stop, can't be bothered to make room for your stuff, and has not persuaded you to elope?"

There are no excuses for that at all. His family has always been close and I said when this started there would be problems. He didn't believe me because "his family isn't that way". He told me afterward that he was wrong, he messed up and should of told his family right away to back off. He does feel very bad. As far as getting rid of my things, I made that choice for many reasons. We have talked about getting married and telling them at a later time. BUT the further damage that would cause would be horrible.


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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

"....the further damage that would cause would be horrible."

After this 7-8 year history, how much "further damage" could there possibly be?

If you and fiance are together in this, I would suggest making an overture to the family and see what can be salvaged. Might even work. Maybe misunderstandings could be smoothed over allowing a fresh start. At least it would allow you see what you're dealing with. And you could be said to have done your bit.

Gotta tell you, though, you've described some pretty unattractive people. If you decide to marry into this, there's going to be more.


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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

You will always be second to his family I think. If that's acceptable to you, that's fine. But you need to understand this before you decide what to do. I hate families like this....

Like other's said, it's really all up to your fiancee. How he handles this in the near future will tell you A LOT about how the dynamics with the family will go in the future (if you marry...prenup or not).

I have no idea why all the drama about the "family assets" being declared off limits to you via a prenup? I just went thru a divorce over the last few years, and was told by the lawyer I consulted, as well as the mediators we uses, that assets that I had upon entering the marriage were mine and she had no rights to them at all. Same for inheritances. Maybe it's different where you are, I am in NY.

Good luck. I don't envy you...like I said, I hate families that put the 'family' before the happiness of the individual members of it.


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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

"....told by the lawyer I consulted, as well as the mediators we uses, that assets that I had upon entering the marriage were mine...."

With respect, without the pre-nup things can get pretty mixed up in the courtroom in the event of a nasty divorce. I knew one case where the divorcing spouse claimed the appreciation during the marriage of the defending spouses house and furnishings purchased and owned before the marriage. (Complaining spouse previously lived in an apartment. Defending spouse had paid all taxes and maintenance from personal funds during the marriage and was required to submit those records.) Complaining spouse also claimed entitlement to future inheritance from defending spouses parents notwithstanding that the parents were still living. She claimed previous personal estate gifts to defending spouse were joint gifts. There was more. Not making this up. I was there.

Of course all of it was thrown out but it took hours in court plus the attorneys' time and filings to work it through while the judge listened and considered.....thousands in additional expense even though the claims had zero merit. The laws certainly did prevail, but not without huge amounts of time and argument. This is how attorneys make their money. It's a free shot. They get paid whether it works or not.

The longer the marriage the sillier it can get. Simple pre-nup can avoid all of that. People with substantial assets marrying late are wise to consider this, IMHO.


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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

"This is how attorneys make their money. It's a free shot. They get paid whether it works or not. "

Sad but true....and the worst part of it is it's usually a double-benefit for the lawyers, because not only will the person seeking the assets lawyer be paid, but the guy being sued will be forced to pay for a lawyer to defend himself....that sucks so bad.

I am so glad I was able to use a mediation service in our divorce...total cost was probably 3 thousand dollars, and we are both fairly happy with how it turned out, so no drama, no threats of further legal action, etc.....


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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

Personally, (unless he has kids), I'd tell your fiancee that you're not open to doing a prenup anymore (unless you really have to protect your own asets). If he still wants to marry you without one, then fine.

If he can't choose you over his family now, he never will. Why are they even involved??? And dwelling on money matters or making them more important than the relationship is just wrong.

So, it will messy if there is a divorce. Divorces should be messy. Engagement and marriages shouldn't be.


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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

"Divorces should be messy."

If there's logic in that, I guess I missed it.


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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

Divorces should be messy. You've entered into a contract and are breaking it. Why should breaking a marriage contract be easy? Ahh, yeah, to save some of the almighty dollar. That's a really lame excuse when dealing with a marriage and family. If it's too easy to leave your husband/wife, almost everyone will be doing it all the time for no good reasons.

Some people think marriages are easily expendable and don't have as strong a commitment to them as others. If you feel that way, then yes, the statement isn't logical. Heck, some think there should be drive through divorce windows.

But if you believe that marriage should be forever, and that you should try to stay together through think and thin... when boredom sets in or spouses become annoying, or when you are going through unhappy periods, and that you have to think twice and really hard about getting a divorce because it's not going to be easy, then you may decide to stick it out. (Granted I'm not talking about staying in abusive situations, but when people leave for no good reason, it shouldn't be easy).

Dissolutions of companies are messy; why shouldn't dissoluntions of marriages be?

And, honestly, I'll tell you another thing, if I ever feel the need to have to leave my husband, I am going to try to take him for all he has --plus some (unless I feel it is not in my best interest). I'm not going to leave him because I'm not happy or because I found someone else or because he has a pot belly -- If I left him, there'd be a good enough reason to try to take it all.

I've personally never understood the logic behind amicible divorces...oh, yeah, the money...once again...anything to save a couple bucks. We all know the almightly dollar is everything.


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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

"...if I ever feel the need to have to leave my husband, I am going to try to take him for all he has --plus some"

"I've personally never understood the logic behind amicible divorces..."

Gee what lovely girl you are. As much as I will always think my ex is a piece of sh*t for how she ended my marriage, at least she had the class to NOT try to take me for everything I'm worth, and for realizing that us having an amicable divorce was definitely in the best interest of us co-parenting our young kids. We have a 50/50 custody arrangement, agreed relatively easily on how to split the assets, and essentially had about as close to a "stress-free" divorce as possible. Now, 4 years later, we still see each other almost every day, rarely argue about anything, take the kids to dinner together occasionally, and even help each other out with things. It is good for my kids to see us get along like this....rather than arguing and hating each other because of an ugly, lawyer-infested divorce.

THAT is the logic behind amicable divorces, not money.


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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

Or, you could just stay happily married like I am...

I don't think that's bad for kids. :-)

Why did your wife leave you? You sound like a lovely couple. Did you get a pot belly, start going bald? Was her tennis intructor paying her a little too much attention? Maybe you hung out with your friends a little too much?

Believe me, dear, I wouldn't leave my husband if I could stand to be around him. I value my marriage vows too much. Of course if I got a divorce and had to be civil for kids I would but I wouldn't enjoy it or even pretend to. What I'm saying is that I value marriage so much so that I would only leave my husband if he did something horrific, very horrific. And, yes, I would probably try to take the house, the kids and everything that goes with it in that case. Because I am a lovely girl and I do want the best for my kids. And I wouldn't give an abusive a**hole a 50/50 custody agreement.

I'm not your ex, but I doubt I would have left you for whatever her reasons were. What did you do ...Did you do horrific things that would make me (and her) want to take you for all you've got? Did you sexual abuse the kids, beat her senseless? What, what horrific thing did you do that made her want to leave you? Or, did you just grow apart and decide it's best to move on... Do you understand my point?


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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

I hope you said those things in jest...I highly doubt guys that would sexually abuse kids, beat their wives, etc., are the type that participate in online forums about relationships. I was a good husband, good provider, and faithful...I guess that was not enough.

I was actually happy, and I wanted to stay married, not just for the kids, either, I don't think that is a good idea. But...she needed more "attention", "romance" etc., since she has no friends (still doesn't), isn't social and has no outside interests and activities...she looked to me for her way too much of her happiness. I'm outgoing, active have lots of friends and interests...not to mention that pesky thing called "a job" that allowed her to be a stay-at-home, which is what we both wanted. We really were just a bad match from that point of view.

We actually got along real well, never fought, had similar parenting styles....I think that's why it was (and still is, honestly) such a shock that she was unhappy enough to pull the plug on what I thought was a good, not great, marriage. I've told her since, I have less of a problem with her deciding she wanted "out" then the path she took (affairs, etc). I did not deserve that.

No pot belly though, always been a gym rat, and was already losing my hair when we met...so I know that's not it...plus the guy she left me for shaves his head too - lol!

As for valuing marriage vows...I did...she apparently had a different view on what a vow is....


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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

He really does need to stand up to his family without a doubt. His brother is STILL sending messages even after he knows that the wedding is off. He has some nerve for sure.
As far as wanting the prenup, I do want one. I have assets I want to protect just like he does.

I JUST found out that the land the farm is so worried about and wanted in the prenup is NOT, I repeat, IS NOT in the boys' name. Its in a damn trust. So, here they are pushing for the land bullsh*t (that I don't want) and it won't go to their kids until the parents are gone. That really pisses me off because they were leading my fiance to believe otherwise and since I DIDN"T CARE ABOUT THE LAND I never asked. It would have been so simple to just put in the prenup "all future inheritances", that would have taken care of it.

Not to mention I NEVER, NEVER, take time off of work. In 5 years I have used 42 vacation hours. So, everyone knew (customers and all) I was taking a week off for the wedding and honeymoon and I am constantly getting asked how it all went. That right there is putting me in a bad mood all the time.


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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

To be honest, I'd be re-evaluating my relationship with fiance if I was in your shoes. Clearly he isn't going to stand up to his family if he hasn't already, and I would bet that now they've come out and started opening shoving their oars in it will not stop. Is that what you want for the rest of your marriage? A husband who does not have your back and in-laws who send hateful messages?


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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

This is so silly. Inherited property is off the table anyway, notwithstanding the courtroom gymnastics that may be out of your control....such as I described above. No way to predict or avoid that. They can do that trying to invalidate pre-nups, too, but it almost never works.

Seems clear to me there's some agenda at work that has nothing to do with the farm. If you're still considering marriage, I'd sure as hell find out what it is. Those folks either don't like you or have some hidden intention regarding your fiance. You've described a sequence of deceptions aimed at you and/or the prospect of your marriage to him. I think you need to find out what the real story is before you do ANYTHING more.

Sit down with your fiance and holler horse***t! This thing's really starting to smell. And I regret to observe that your fiance almost certainly knows what the real deal is. CYA fiances with bonkers families do not make good husbands.


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RE: Help, In-Law Troubles and Need some Advice

I have done pre-nups for couples. If you retained an attorney I cannot imagine why either you or your fiance didn't let the attorneys explain what you were entitled to before you decided you wanted something different.
His share of the family farm would be his separate property, and your giving up any interest in it is pretty simple. You have a home of your own--that would be yours. If you live together its almost ridiculous for family to want all the personal property if one of you dies--are they planning to take the refrigerator while you are at the funeral? or are they talking about some family items he has?The usual pre nup lists those items --and yours as well.
Personally I think you complicated things by wanting to split community interests unevenly based on who filed. I never heard that idea before. Rarely do even my older couples discuss this stuff with their kids or their parents. You can put in a waiver of spousal support but courts aren't bound by that--suppose one of you becomes paralyzed by a stroke. Anyway you said you work--how would you be eligible for spousal support?
What is the hidden agenda? I bet its because there was some reason the two of you split for 1 1/2 years, and the family was affected by that and took sides. Also you lived together for 6 years, then split and now want to get married. Since you both have houses its possible you were both married before. The family probably has considered the odds of the two of you staying married 10 years is not good.


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