Those who have responded to my comments there, please feel free to reply to me here...I am genuinely interested in understanding peoples feelings on these issues.

In the other thread it was stated:
That man forfeited his "right" to see his kids as soon as he became abusive. Period. He has no rights any more. And the kids are under no obligation to be abused (physically or emotionally) just because he's their sperm donor.

I wonder, are those same feelings carried forward to a mother who is emotionally abusive toward her children? (Or does the fact that a woman carrys the child for 9 months (give or take) make her the only parent that has a constant right to see her child?

I am not talking about a parent who has been convicted of sexually or physically abusing a child. I strongly believe that anyone who would sexually molest or beat a child deserves a punishment that our courts are unable to give out...I am talking strictly of emotional abuse here.

I personally do not agree that a parent 'forfeits' their right to be a parent in instances of emotional abuse. I think that a parent (regardless of gender) who is admittedly or assessed and proven emotionally abusive towards their children should be instructed to take counseling to deal with these issues, and if they are unwilling, then, in extreme cases, they may need to have their access supervised until such time as they are willing to admit and deal with their problems.

Maybe I should explain why this gets me so fired up.

I am a stepmother. My husband is a wonderful, loving father and husband. He has two children from a past relationship, and we have one child together.

When I moved in with him four years ago (his ex took off 2 years prior when she found out she was pregnant with baby #2), he was having his children over for a few hours, every other Sunday. (When she didn't refuse him access.) The relationship between DH and his children was one of the major factors of why I wanted to marry him. They were crazy over him. He was as involved as their mother would allow him to be, he was responsible (made sure his support was paid before any of his other bills) and he was always very gentle, patient and loving towards them. After a few months the daughter started to ask when they could stay longer, and could they stay overnight...DH asked their mom if he could see them on the Saturdays as well as the few hours he got them on the Sundays. She stopped his access for a month before Christmas (then her lawyer advised her she couldn't do that with the order that was in place.) We got another two visits in, and daughter started asking again. DH informed mom that he sould be applying to court for more time with the kids if she wouldn't agree to it. The next visit she accused him of drugging the 1 1/2 year old son, and went so far as to take him to the hospital for 3 hours of tests. When DH went to the hospital to see what was wrong with his child (after two phone calls from doctors), mom kicked him out...she had custody, so (in her opinion) he had no right to know what was going on. (The tests all came back negative, because we hadn't given him anything.) DH filed for joint custody. Two days later mom accused DH of sexually abusing the 3 1/2 year old daughter, and got his access stopped, pending an investigation. She put the daughter through tests trying to 'prove' what had happened and took daughter to therapists. After six months, the police finally closed the file stating that there was nothing to suggest anything had happened to the child, and the phychologist/therapist had told them the same. (I had been present at the past visits and I know that DH never did anything to either child. If he had I would have been the first to turn him in.)

That happened over three years ago. DH hasn't seen his children since. He has missed them everyday. Everytime he hears a young child say "Daddy" he searches the faces for HIS missing children. I should mention that they live less than a five minute drive from us, and he has to pass their house every day on his way to work. So close, yet he hasn't held them, or even seen them in over three years. He is scared that when we do finally get to see them, he will not recognize them, nor they him.

Now for the worst part...yes, it gets worse.

Mom has been 'teaching' daughter, for the past three years that daddy sexually abused her, and she was young enough that she now has false memories. (Daughter told a different therapist last year that DH is "Bad Daddy" and her new daddy is her 'real' daddy now.)

A young child has gone from having a true, loving, trusting relationship with her father, to now believing that she was abused. Unless some major changes occur, this young girl will grow up with the belief (and all the emotional scars that go with it) that the one man she should be able to trust implicitly, her father, has committed the most heinous crimes against her.

I would hope that everyone reading this agrees that this is emotional abuse. Both children are now displaying (according to the mother) behavioral problems that are related to an 'abuse' that never actually happened.

So what now?? Does emotional abuse commited by a mother forfeit her right to a relationship with the children? Does she become an 'ovi-donor' (like an emotionaly abusive father is a 'sperm donor')? Should the 9 months she carried the children be considered a surrogacy.

Even with all she's put these children through, I don't believe that is right. I believe she needs some serious help to deal with the 'reasons' she has done this to the children. But I also believe that the children need to have a relationship with both parents. I believe that since DH and I are willing to allow/encourage a relationship between children and mom, but mom is not willing to allow the same relationship between children and dad, that we should have custody, and that they should have counseling to help them deal with everything they have gone through (both the lies and the change of custody). I believe that until mom gets the needed help she shouldn't be alone with the children. But I still belive she should be allowed an ongoing relationship with them. Why? Because she's their parent. She may not be a very good one in some regards, but she is who she is, and she's the only blood-tie mom they'll ever have. I believe the same is true for dads.

Will it ever happen? I don't know. At this point I don't know if we'll even ever see them again. We'll never stop trying. They deserve to know that they have a father who loves them and misses them everyday (and a stepmom who does too). We keep hoping that one of these days the courts will understand what has happened and will make things right. Hope, pray, and keep fighting...but it sure is hard.

So now that you've seen the other side of the coin...what's your opinion?

As women, we are very good at grouping together in support of other women who (we believe) have been wronged. We offer support and encouragement. We get ourtaged when we hear of domestic abuse. (I think it a part of our nurturing instincts). And that is great...as long as we don't take our support and love for our fellow women and turn it into hatred towards men.

Women have made great stride in the movement for equality. In some areas there is still a way to go. In others, the pendulum has swung too far. In family law, women have been put on a pedestal, often taken at their word as though they were faultless in the breakdown of the relationship, and had hearts as pure as saints. The men in these same cases, are often treated as liars, and cheating, abusive b*st*rds, even if they good, upstanding men. Eventually, this will come back to bite all women.

How can a boy learn to be a good father if he never gets to know his? How can he trust a woman enough to have children with her if he grows up knowing that a father's only 'right' is to pay child support, but never see his children? (No man in his right mind would sign up for that kind of punishment.)
How is a girl to learn what kind of man to look for, if she grows up learning that men can't be trusted? How can she learn how to treat one, if all she is taught is that a man is a paycheck for 'her' children?
A father is not 'just a sperm donor' anymore than a mother is a surrogate or an 'ovi-donor'. It takes two to make a baby, and since both parents bring different qualities to the relationship (some good and some bad), both parents are needed (whether they're together or not) to raise the child.
That is why I believe in a childs right to a loving relationship with both parents. That is why I belive that access denial is child abuse.

I look forward to your (hopefully many) responses.

Sincerely
Verena

We may be in the minority, but I think you are absolutely right. No matter how terrible we adults think a parent is (except for the physical abuse you mention), children do need a relationship with both parents. I say this from lots of experience.

I am one of six and the only one that is not divorced and/or remarried. There has been some crappy behavior by almost ALL theses parents. However, the children who are the most negatively affected are my sister's kids that never see their dad (he is not interested). The others definitely have had a hard time and are sad about the divorces, but they have good relationships with both parents.

Blood ties are nothing. Parenting is not about genetics, it's about love, respect, teaching, and nurturing. Almost everyone is capable of making babies, but not everyone is capable of being a parent.

I too came from an emotionally abusive father, and the best thing my mom ever did was leave him. I haven't spoken to him in almost 13 years, and I don't miss him a bit. I am so glad that my mom never made me keep a relationship with my father. I probably would have ended up with zero self-respect and/or hating or not trusting men. Instead I'm very happily married to a wonderful man who loves me and respects me and it shows. My mom also had the sense to raise my brother so that he respects women and children, unlike my father. Because my brother learned nothing from my father, my brother is now a fantastic father himself. My mom also instilled a sense of self pride into my sister, something that my father tried really hard to take away. My sister, being the youngest, never knew a real father- only the abuser. She is OK now, but would have been better off without the abuse.

Verena, I truly am sorry for your horrible family situation. I strongly disagree that it is healthier for the children to continue having a relationship with an emotionally abusive person than to not be subjcted to her. Would it make a difference if their mother was physically abusive? It shouldn't. I can't believe that anyone would think it's best for children to be abused. Well, I learn something about people every day.

Independent of your situation, I do think (truly) abusive parents should not be given custody of children. I'm fully aware of the advantages children who are raised by both parents generally have, but one needs only to look at the many successful children who were raised by adoptive parents to know that the "parent" need not be the child's biological mom or dad. And this is true for mothers and fathers alike. I'll stop short of saying that a man (or woman) "forfeits" his right to see his kids as soon as he becomes abusive - if he takes real action towards mending and correcting his own behavior, which is in some cases possible, he can still learn to be a worthy parent. The important thing in every child custody case, as far as I'm concerned, is that the *child's* best interests are followed. I don't believe that simply being the biological parent automatically trumps the rights of stepparents or foster parents. I also believe that a child is much better off with one supportive parent than spitting time between that parent and an abusive parent.

There's only one thing specifically regarding your situation that I'm at all qualified to answer knowledgeably, and that concerns the attempts to convince your SD that she was sexually assaulted by your DH. One thing I wouldn't worry too much about is that she'll grow up believing this really happened. (This unfortunately is a common ploy in divorce and custody cases everywhere, to try to convince the judge that the other parent is abusing their child). But even if it occurred at a very young age, children, and adults trying to recall their early childhood, almost always instinctively *know* if they were molested as children. If they were, they will feel different, act different, and have a deep sense of being betrayed, damaged, somehow different, even if they can't recall the specifics (and often they can't, as child sexual abuse survivors often try to repress any memories of what happened). Repressed is not the same as forgotten though, and these children will usually exhibit telltale behaviors by the time they're in 1st grade, at least amongst those that know what to look for. Sometimes even if they don't - one woman I know, now in her 20s, back when she was 6 or 7 years old, when encountering any man in a relatively private setting would instinctively offer him sexual favors, since that's what she learned at home. Conversely, children who were *not* sexually abused will almost always strongly resist any attempt to have that label affixed to them as they get older, will swear up and down that nothing of the sort ever happened (long after they need to fear retribution from a parent if they say it did), and will not have the same psychological disorders such as chronic dissociation that CSA survivors so often develop. And if an adult - including a parent, therapist, or lawyer - tries to convince her that something happened that she feels in her rankles that definitely did not, she will learn to distrust that person. The constant insinuations from mom that her daddy is "bad" will clash with the reality that she sees and knows, that this same guy always seems to treat her well and shows not even an inkling of abusive behavior - in short, that he is good. And in time that will throw serious doubt on her mom's allegations in her mind, until she no longer believes her mom's accusations.

I agree wholeheartedly with Meghane BTW.

I certainly think she should not have custody. But, I don't understand how he could go three years without seeing his children, even with her allegations. With creating false memories in her daughter, she is also setting her daughter up for a lifetime of feeling like a victim and having issues. I also agree that contact with an abusive parent should be limited or supervised. Someone that subjects their kids to unnecessary tests and exams to make false allegations does not need to be alone with those children. She has abused her role as a parent, which is to protect her children.

Asolo, you would think that it might have been worked out, but no. We haven't seen or hear anything about the kids in over eight years. We eventually gave up trying to gain ground through the courts...do you know that there are a million and one ways to keep an access dispute from going before a judge? (We sure found out...not that we wanted to.)

Since we couldn't reach out in person (Mom is still going against court order and denying any contact) and we couldn't afford to pay lawyers, I started writing to the kids over the internet. Nothing direct, just throwing messages out in cyberspace, with their names on it, hoping that if they "Google" themselves, they'll find the messages. Kind of a "message-in-a-bottle" idea. It might even work...the other day Mom e-mailed us to let us know that she's going to pursue charges and a restraining order against me for posting the kids names on MySpace, unless I take it down. Looks like she found one of the "bottles", so hopefully the kids will too. We continue to reach out, in love, and with hope that one day we'll get to know them. We won't give up. Some things are worth fighting for. A child's right to the love and support of *both* parents is definitely one of those things.