So...if he hasn't cheated....the only way he can save his marriage is by lying?
I am reminded of the Jews who were converted en masse during the Spanish inquisition but who were secretly celebrating the Jewish Holidays.
He may "confess" to save his marriage or his skin, but by forcing a confession, how will you know he is really telling the truth or just saying what you want to hear?
He has denied in the past any wrong doing....but you are SURE because you are missing 2 pair of Levi's jeans. Why will you believe him if he confesses? because he will be saying what you want to hear?
And....when you do figure it out....be sure to check back here and tell us how the missing jeans indicate he has committed adultry. and what really happened to your jeans and where that other pair came from.

I personally don't believe in spending money on a PI. If you have to dig that low to "resolve" an issue, then all you have is two options - they find nothing and you STILL don't trust, or they find something and you then have to leave. Very hard to come back and find love again after a third party has been hired.

Sorry to beat a dead horse but there is the most fabulous book on forgiveness. It talks about three options: Forgiving as a partnership, forgiving when the other doesn't participate (acceptance) and then choosing not to forgive.

It goes into great detail with regards to how often we forgive 'cheaply' -so that we can move on peacefully in our lives...but how that option takes away from the option of more intimacy.

What we're talking about here is The Possibility. I think what I hear several people saying is, WHAT IF there is no offense? That has to be a possibility. the OP's feelings are not fact. It would be such a shame that 4 years (and honestly the rest of the future) have been wasted with doubt and mistrust if the guy is innocent. IF that is the case, then the OP has some serious issues to look at.

Now, if all of this STUFF is based solely on the fact that pants are missing and replaced, then I would start looking at the OP's cognitive rationalle.

However, if there are other things at play, which we still don't know about, then I can tell you from experience that I do believe in intuition - it's almost scary what the subconscious can pick up. I also know that sometimes it takes 4 years for the mind to set itself in a position to be able to handle the truth - perhaps if there is an indescretion, the OP has not been emotionally ready to handle the truth and now her subconscious is saying, OK we're ready. We can handle this now.

I highly HIGHLY recommend the book How Can I Forgive You - you'd think I get commissions considering how often I mention it but i'll be danged if this isn't such a new concept and perfectly presented in such a way that forgiveness can be a solid concept rather than this etherial sort of hard to grasp concept espoused by the christian community.

Amy, You've hit the nail on the head. Forgiveness comes in so many forms and so many ways. I can tell when he is being truthful after all these years. How do I know? When whichever side came to light after the fact, even if years later, or even if other matters. I know him. Forgiving as a paterneship is what I am after. How are we going to solve this together? is what I lay at his feet. His whole attitude about it has been odd from every aspect. Fishy in every way. He doesn't do this with other things, so why now?

L, Skip telling me I am incapable of forgiveness or that I would be dumb enough to swallow a lie. I have a better relationship with my husband that that. Maybe you're incapable of forgiveness, so you think everyone is? And it's one pair that was replaced. Get it right since you keep insisting you know what you're saying. One might benefit from all your experience if you just had help in mind. Leave the scathing sarcasm off if you want me to hear. Or maybe it's not what you're after?

Okay rob, so here's what you might need to do to get what you're after (which is,it sounds like,: a process of healing and a move towards greater intimacy for both you and your husband).

Let's go at this under the assumption that he's done something. (Acknowledging the fact that perhaps he hasn't, but for the sake of argument let's honor the instinct for a moment - )

What might be getting in the way of him talking to you? Let's eliminate the terms which might come across to him as threatening and as punishing (you may feel as if he deserves punishment but keep in mind your ultimate goal. This isn't about punishing, it's about problem solving.) So the word "confession" is a bit punitive - puts you in a position above him. Like it or not, you'll need to be on equal ground to get him to feel comfortable opening up.

So how about instead of "demanding a confession" (not your words, mine), how about approaching this in terms of "facilitating conversation" or "encouraging transparency". When you set the stage for him to feel safe to open up, you're going to more likely get what you need. Your attitude as well as your words and actions will determine much of what is said and what is not said by him. No one wants to be treated like a child, and often times when they are treated as such, they tend to act more like children. I presume you don't want to be the parent, either - you want to be equals.

Keep in mind that four years of repression on this topic is going to affect you in a way that this seems a lot bigger, and more offensive, and horrific, and makes him look smaller, and much more pathetic than actuality warrants. You'll need to set attacking and anger aside (I know, easier said than done) in order to create an environment conducive to truth -

Perhaps your counselor can help you get there. Again, this goes back to originally me saying that this problem also is impacted by your actions and reactions - the good news is that you have 100% control over yourself. What seems like a positively natural reaction may not be the best course of action -

When we can learn how to keep our feelings in check and act intentionally rather than reactively, we are most likely to have the results we want in life. Sure, if you were to find out that he's cheated, you'll find 90% of folks out there supportive of you doing things that you "FEEL" like doing or saying - but that is not necessarily going to get the results you want. Just be smart about it - sounds like you have a keeper, from your point of view - you just want intimacy on top of it. It's attainable - I can promise you that, as long as he cooperates, and as long as you make it safe for him to do so. (and you don't have to compromise who you are in order to make it safe - Talk to your counselor about that -)

Maybe part of what might help you get to a more gentle place would be to recognize that you might actually have contributed to some of the lack of intimacy in the marriage as well (gulp - that might hurt, be prepared) - it's easier to go about solving problems in the marriage when we recognize that we aren't perfect and aren't "above" the other person - instead, we're both struggling to make this work and to discover and learn etc -

Good luck

amy, if you were truly haunted by "intuition" (whatever the heck you think that is) that your husband was having an affair but he wouldn't admit to it and it was tearing apart your thoughts and your relationship and a resolution was no where in sight, then why not hire a pi? Living in a constant condemning relationship where there is no trust for whatever the reason is better, why? Because you don't want to have to dig "so low" is an excuse to not be open to finding the truth? Plus, if he is a big dog, he may still be cheating and they can probably very easily tell her that too. Why focus only on one affair along time ago? Once a cheater always a cheater, right? IF her intuition is right, there's probably a lot of stuff she's not aware of to even know to ask about.

Come on, if you're accusing your husband of having an affair and he won't admit to, you need to either drop it or prove it, and not sit in a condemning lala land for your whole life (Do you have any idea how hard that is to be in a relationship like that for both the parties involved?). You hire a lawyer for a legal problem, call the police for a physical fight, but you can't hire a pi to do some background work for you? I think you watch too much tv about how low pi's are. Can you check your husband's call history on his cell phone, or is that too low too? If he was/is cheating the pi's will find something. A rational person would accept the fact that if they didn't find something that he's probably not cheating and maybe their intuition isn't all that. It can provide some type of closure; which is what the OP needs to go on one way or the other.

And, if they found out he was cheating, what makes you think you would HAVE to leave the marriage? Just because a third party is involved you HAVE to leave? I've never heard that before, where does that concept come from? Forcing your husband to apologize or tying him to a tree and beating the truth out of him, creates for a better future relationship than finding out the truth from a pi, why? If he tells her the truth (that he cheated) at this point, I wouldn't even count that as a being honest on his part. After this much time and badgering, it's probably more of a "can't handle this mental abuse" more than a "coming clean and being honest" thing on his part.

You think because the OP asks her husband in a nicer way about his affair, that he will admit to it? Yeah, maybe on his death bed... you can't back pedal once you've demanded an apology from your husband for cheating.

Oh, wait, did I say " Tell me the truth you SOB or I'll chop off your ... you cheating good for nothing...." what I meant to say was.. "You big kind old teddy bear, you, who have you been snuggling up against, sugar love, you know I'll love you no matter what". You seriously think her husband will feel safe to come and tell her? Really, in which decade? If he hasn't told her in 4 years, he's not going to. And, quite honestly even though morally the nice way should be the way to go; if she wants the truth in a timely manner, harassment probably works a lot better.

And, nice assumption, but what if the true answer is her husband has done nothing? I would think in this specific scenario, you should have a solution or a plan that would encompass either option being true. What does the OP do when her husband doesn't admit, no matter how nice and loving she is to him, how much blames she accepts herself and how many decades have passed? What if he didn't cheat?

Intuition is the perceptive part of our brain telling us stuff that the logical part doesn't get, & body language is one of the big things that police & secret service agents study & watch.

We can lie verbally but it's much harder for us to control our gestures & expressions.

The perceptive brain has been around a lot longer than the logical brain, & it knows what it's doing;
it's the brain that kept our species alive long enough for the logical brain to develop.

Many years ago I read "The Gift of Fear", a wonderful book by a security consultant, about using the perceptive brain to keep us safe.

In a nutshell, the message was, if you are suddenly seized by the compulsion to flee...flee.

Fear is the perceptive brain's response to some danger that our logical brain hasn't processed yet.

If you "feel in your gut" or "have the sense that" or have an "intuition" about something, it's likely your perceptive brain telling you what your logical brain hasn't processed or doesn't want to admit.

Whoa carla, the way you're talking to me is coming off pretty sarcastic and rude- no need for all that.

Did I say something that hurt you personally? That was not my intent. Maybe you're bothered by the fact that my post was based on the assumption that Rob's fears are founded - remember, I did point out that there is the possibility that they are not. However, Rob's firm stance is that something is amiss, and my attempts to dissuade her fell on deaf ears - so the next best thing is to assume that there is more to the story than we know, and that perhaps we should address things from her point of view to make progress.

I said I personally would not hire a PI - the "answers" are not the foundation or root of the problem. The PI will only fail to support Rob's position, or he will sustain it, and we are still left with mistrust and major issues to deal with.

I understand that this is an elevated concept, and the more base part of us wants to demand justice and evidence. It doesn't, however, address issues of intimacy, forgiveness, trust, etc - hire a PI if that makes you feel better but you're still left with the reality that you don't trust, and lack intimacy in the marriage.

I found your reference to "...teddy bear..." insulting and without consideration to the intention of the suggestion. I'm not spouting off information without basis, experience, and broad understanding, and for you to twist things and try to dumb it down to such a level is unnecessary. There is a lot of wisdom in the things I had to share, if only because I personally have experienced such things myself.

And Sylvia is right about what intuition is. Intuition is made up by the finest nuances and by things the subconscious makes us aware of. Human beings are complex, more so that you realize. To say that finding pants in the closet is reasonable to deduct an affair is ludicrous. To find pants and which trigger other subconscious awarenesses is certainly reasonable.

The info given in the original first post is clearly not enough for a reasonable human being to jump to the conclusion of an affair. However, the OP has since indicated that there are other things which are pointing in that direction, things which she has and hasn't shared here.

Again, from personal and very profound experiences I do understand and believe in intuition, and I stand by the things I have said here and in my previous post.

which is,it sounds like,: a process of healing and a move towards greater intimacy for both you and your husband)yes, yes, yes!!! You got it. Now for the hard part... as long as he cooperates, and as long as you make it safe for him to do so. (and you don't have to compromise who you are in order to make it safe - Talk to your counselor about that -) I think this is where my difficulty lies. Although, the good news is, Maybe part of what might help you get to a more gentle place would be to recognize that you might actually have contributed to some of the lack of intimacy in the marriage as well (gulp - that might hurt, be prepared) - it's easier to go about solving problems in the marriage when we recognize that we aren't perfect and aren't "above" the other person - instead, we're both struggling to make this work and to discover and learn etc - I've visited here and continue to do work.

Now that's some real help. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Rob,
You wrote that none of the rational explanations make sense because you have a great memory (didn't leave the jeans somewhere, etc.). However, the "affair" explanation doesn't make sense either. Let's say (hypothetically, of course) that I am having an affair with a married man in his house. I am snooping around his wife's closet and see jeans that look like they would fit me pretty close. Now, I WANT her to be suspicious (so maybe they will break up and I will get him) so I wear home her jeans and leave mine. Ok, I can see this happening. Cheaters do some pretty sleazy things. But you have TWO pairs of missing jeans. That doesn't make sense. Is the mistress also a kleptomaniac? She wears one pair and just steals the other?

This doesn't make sense to me.

"One day, I went to put on my straight cut Levi jeans, but they didn't feel right. They weren't Levi's. Then I went to look for my boot cut Levi's. Not in the closet (I even unhung everything and looked in the bottom of the closet, nope, not there). Then under the bed, then the dining room table. They were no where to be seen. Nowhere. So there I was with jeans that weren't Levi's and my most loved pair gone"... "The straight legs levis are now my putting up drywall and painting pants". Boot cut leg gone, straight leg stayed. Put on by mistake, taken, who cares why.

Ignoring that part, how do I end up with a pair I've never seen or would've bought. How bout offering up rationale for that part?

amy,

I think you understood more about what was going on earlier in your postings. I totally understand your counseling concepts, but I do not think they would ever work in the case with this particular poster for a couple reasons. As I'm sure you may know, people have to be open to things in counseling, and IMHO she's way too close minded for any of your ideas to come close to working.

I also know what intuition is, but after hearing this poster's reasoning for things, I do not believe her thoughts are logical woman's intuition in the least bit. I believe they are rantings.

amy, I'm sorry if I came across so rude to you, but it scared me because usually your opinions are somewhat sound and it just seemed to me like you were beggining to sound like the poster (even she said you hit the nail on the head!), which sort of scared me.

Of course intimacy and trust are lacking in this person's marriage, but I'm not so sure it is a marriage problem that can be solved by marriage counseling. It seems to me that it may be more of a personal issue, and trying to solve it with marriage counseling will usually only compound the problem if the poster's real problems are not addressed. So, I don't disagree with your advice for many people with marriage problems, I just don't agree with it for this particular poster. I think you figured out early on what was really going on here.

Carla, the only person being closed minded is you. As far as I can tell your only objective is to be right. Maybe you are. Maybe you aren't, but you're determined for me to say nothing happened. So what if nothing did. I can stay at a stalemate in my corner, or try figure my way out. At least Amy is trying to understand. You're just finger pointing. I don't care to hear what you're saying, even if it is right because you're so darned determined to shove it down my throat (isn't this what you're accusing me of doing? why is it ok for you?). You've said you piece, I get it. You think he's 100% right based on??? you don't like me? At least that's what I'm getting out of your posts. You are being illogical. Convince me a different way or over something else, because I can be convinced when it's reasonable. You're not here in his midst, you don't see him, his reactions, hear his comments, etc. What exactly are you basing it on? Take me at my word, or maybe you can't, but you are not helping.

Ok...assuming that the strange jeans and the fact that yours are missing is a definite sign that your husband has been unfaithfull to you....
How could that have happened?
You said that he worked in a strange and rough area of town and worked odd hours and late at night. Presuming you and your son where at home while he was working.
In other posts on other forums, you said you were a stay at home mom until your son was over 3...when you sent him to a sitter. You said on another forum that you couldn't afford a preschool for your son. I'm not sure just when the pants switch happened, but if it was while you were a stay at home, that had to be difficult.
During the time before you moved into your house, did you never ever leave LF with a sitter? Never??
Previous to your "discovery" did you notice that your husband had any change in demeanor? Were there any changes of a sexual nature?
And about how long could it have been between the "event" and the time you noticed the switched jeans? Did you wear them once a week? 3 times? Every evening while relaxing?
And in the past when you have confronted your husband with the issue of the jean switch, what does he say? Does he get angry? Does he tell you you are imagining such things?...and what was his attitude the first time you confronted him. And when you confronted him the first time what did you say?
I am really having a problem figuring out just how someone could have pulled the switcheroo and when without you or your son noticing.

0-3 LF stayed either with me or Ed.
3-5 he went to preschool (a great one! Loved it)
5-8 he's been in K-2 grade

4 years ago is preschool. Ed was alone quite a bit in this down period of his life/our lives. It was a bad time all the way around. LF has always stayed with family since Ed and I have 10 brothers and sisters between us (not counting spouses), 2 grandmothers, all of which live within an hour and half. No sitter. That would've been a good idea, but I could account for that one. Loads of changes in both of us in demeanor about loads of things. I wore them alternating with the other jeans, only on weekends. I pour my money into my good work clothes since I work at an ivy league school, never able to wear jeans at any other point. He's not angry, he's just plain fishy about it. I wish I could find a better word! But fishy is closest. Not like with other problems. I so wish there was a clear cut sign. But forgiveness on both our parts is all that can fix it. PHOOEY!

I thought I'd made it clear that the pants switcheroo does not, in my mind, indicate a 'definite sign' or even (if isolated) a mild sign of infidelity.

Just wanted to set the record straight.

It's all the stuff that goes with it that has Rob concerned. Pants is just a trigger telling Rob that something in the marriage is amiss. It may or may not be an affair, but at any rate the anxiety caused by the pants is enough to get her to say, "i haven't trusted you for 4 years. Why is that?"

Yes, i believe that if Rob can go about this humbly and with less emotional outbursts than many of us are guilty of on this thread, then their marriage has a good shot. I've seen stranger things turn out well.

If my jeans were gone & another pair were in my closet & my husband acted "fishy", I my own self wouldn't be inclined to 'forgive', but that's just me.

What I *would* do, & what I strongly urge Rob to do, is get tested for STDs including AIDS, & have the tests repeated every 6 months.

Many years ago, one of my pals from work had to have a hysterectomy due to PID (pelvic inflammatory disease) caused by an infection her philandering husband brought home.

Had it been treated earlier, the disaster wouldn't have been as extreme.

Had it not been treated when it was, she could have died.

You are a mother, your son needs you:

Take care of yourself.

Honestly, I think that the original post did not give the full story, so it sounded odd that the OP was so upset. Then you read this:

"He did have an oops before when he contacted a group by email, posting he was interested in others. It was at a turning point in our marriage. He'd decided he was leaving, but hadn't left. "

If I found out my husband had been posting looking for other people AND a strange item of clothing that wouldn't normally be taken off by a guest appeared in my home, I would be very concerned too.

I actually think it is admirable that Rob wants to forgive. Forget the pants thing. Forgiving him for posting that on the internet would be tough enough.

Sounds like Rob's DH needs to earn back some trust. Let's assume that the pants thing is soem strange unaccountable thing that happened with no help from Rob's DH. Considering the other indiscretion, he should understand Rob's concern and be as helpful as possible in resolving it. If he is reacting differently to this problem than others, then I too would smell a rat.

Obviously Rob wants to work this out. I hope she can, but the pant thing may just continue to be a mystery. It's a tough one Rob and I don't envy your position. I wish I had some concrete advise, but I think I would try and let the pants aspect go as there is no possible way you can prove what happened unless he confesses and he MAY have nothing to confess. I would discuss your concerns about the otherindiscretions with him again. Tell him that it has damaged your trust in the relationship and you need all his help to rebuild that trust. Then keep your eyes open for signs for the coming year. If there are no other signs, then relegate it all to the past and move forward. What other choice do you have?

i even wonder if DH acts fishy on purpose. maybe he doesn't want to confess but what rob to suspect him cheating so she would just leave him? maybe he wants out but doesn't know how so he acts fishy to drive her crazy. maybe it is too far fetched but everything is possible

LOL - finedreams, only a woman would be so conniving. Men are far too simple, and I mean that as a compliment to men.

Rob, you are unhappy, you think your husband has been unfaithful to you and you think it happend about 4 years ago. You don't say if you think it's a continuing thing or not.
You have been feeling a lack of intimacy for 4 years and base that on the fact that he won't give you a reasonably explination for what happened to a pair of your jeans.
Right so far?

Some have said leave him....your reply is "over a missing pair of jeans if he would tell me, I would be happy?"
Not sure why you posted there but for looking for people to agree with you that your husband was obviously having an affair and the evidence was the missing pants.
But people didn't say that.

If you really want to have a loving and trusting amrriage, you need to ask him, in a non accusatory way, in the presence of your councellor, and then accept what he says....or leave.
It's been 4 1/2 years already! He may have had dozens of flings in that time that you didn't even suspect...get over it....move on....this was one incident 4 years ago with no logical connection to infidelity...but for in your eyes.
If you want to be happy and have a good marriage, you have to move on...not hang on to one tiny thing and worry it like a dog with a bone until there's nothing left of your marriage or your happiness.
Lidna C

Completely wrong, in every way. I'm pretty sure it was the one time. We don't lack intimacy, although greater intimacy is sought. Not based on jeans, based on other things not talked about here. That's another thread for another time. I wasn't looking for agreeing. It could have been agreement, another explanation or just validation that it was really strange (or that I'm not completely off base IF my other thoughts are correct). That's a big if. People agreed some, disagreed some, offered other explanations (the saboteur is the best one yet!), and some said missing a pair of pants is a little odd, but having to account for jeans I would've never bought or seen is incredibly odd. We're basically pretty happy most of the time. It aint perfect just like everyone else. You show me a 100% perfectly happy couple, and what you're really showing me is a couple of lying SOBs.

Don't take things out of context, it won't make you right. Help if you want, I can even hear those sorts of things then take them to heart. But skip posting if you want to hang on to the one bone you think you have because you're wrong, wrong wrong.

so what is the deal really. this story seems to not be moving anywhere. you suspect, he acts fishy, doesn't say neither yes nor no, counselor is not helpful, you are not happy, so what are we discussing here? what do you really want? you apparently cannot make him to confess and without confession you cannot let it go, so what are your options besides leaving him or letting it go? there is nothing else left! since you can't let it go, i think you should call it quits and move on with your life. it took you over 4 years and nothing got resolved, so why do you think you need to spend another 4 years on this? just leave.

Uh no, I found help, wanted a good way to find forgiveness. Can't you read? A counselor is helpful. What I really want, I found, thanks to Amy. Stalemates help no one. I never wanted that, who does? SEE, READ IT THIS TIME:

"which is,it sounds like,: a process of healing and a move towards greater intimacy for both you and your husband)yes, yes, yes!!! You got it. Now for the hard part... as long as he cooperates, and as long as you make it safe for him to do so. (and you don't have to compromise who you are in order to make it safe - Talk to your counselor about that -) I think this is where my difficulty lies. Although, the good news is, Maybe part of what might help you get to a more gentle place would be to recognize that you might actually have contributed to some of the lack of intimacy in the marriage as well (gulp - that might hurt, be prepared) - it's easier to go about solving problems in the marriage when we recognize that we aren't perfect and aren't "above" the other person - instead, we're both struggling to make this work and to discover and learn etc - I've visited here and continue to do work.

Now that's some real help. Thank you, thank you, thank you!"

You leave fd. Or keep your scathing sarcasm to yourself. Enough. Do those of you who try so hard to thwart have nothing better to do? No real life? Are you so above it all you don't understand forgiveness? Y'all are sad.

I thought we were here te help.

Rob333 - I just want to share this. My first husband made me feel like Ingrid Bergman in Gaslight - because my underwear was always back in the wrong place in the drawer and sometimes it was like a heavier woman had worn it- stitches strained, etc. It made me nutz because he swore up and down there was no other woman...and there wasn't. It was HIM! Is there any possibility your husband secretly dresses up in your clothing when you are not around? It's actually a very common fetish. He could have done something to your pants -ripped them maybe -and then tried to replace them.
P.S. TRUST your intuition, it's real.

Scarlett, that's amazing! I have to admit hubby does have a strange fascination with my underwear (he might jokingly wear it on his head, he's pretty funny), but not really in my jeans. I sure laugh at the thought of my 250 pound hubby trying to fit in them though. I hope it worked out for you and thanks for the reassurance.

no sarcasm, but attempts to understand what do you really want? do you always get angry when people disagree with you or give you suggestions (espcially when you ask for it in a forum).

you said you suspect he cheated, he won't confess, without his confession you won't let it go and won't forgive. so it has been going on for 4 years. it is understandable that you feel bad about it, but what are your options? you can talk and talk about it and get angry at people but it doesn't make him to confess. of course we understand forgiveness, and i and other posters suggested that you forgive and let it go. but you refuse to forgive him because he won't confess! you don't want to forgive, this is nothing to do with us here. you either forgive or leave. you cannot force him to confess.

"Are you so above it all you don't understand forgiveness?"

excatly because we understand forgiveness, we suggest you forgive him without expecting confession. if he didn't confess in 4 years, he probably won't ever. and if you didn't forgive him in 4 years, it is very unlikely you will. it is a vicious cycle.

And now the cycle can end. I couldn't just blindly swallow this one, with so many indicators (there are more, but why give bashers more ammo to pick apart?) pointing to him leaving, unfaithful in heart and actions. Not only that, some posters on this very thread said they wouldn't do it all, once a cheater, always a cheater, and other similar comments. Encourage me not bash me. I'm either stupid for forgiving or incapable of forgiving. As far as I can see, I'm trying harder than most people would.

nobody is bashing you. you are not the one who is unfaithful or acting fishy. he is. i actually encourage you that if he refuses to comnfess but you know he is unfaithful then maybe it is better for you to move on. you don't need this! we are just expressing our opinions. mine is you either forgive and let it go right now or leave him and eventually find someone who is faithful.

Man oh mighty do I have things i need to be getting done today, but yet here I am compulsively returning to my own vomit - LOL! Something about this thread has me intrigued.

Finedreams, I have to respectfully disagree with you, in that there are only two options. There are actually a few more options for Rob, and it looks like she's taking one of them:

Rob is in counseling right now, examining those things that she might inadvertently be doing that is keeping her husband from being open with her. Good Job Rob!!!

Do you know that if people would take this path more often, they'd be a lot happier in the long run?

Finedreams, take your option number 2 - to leave because he hasn't confessed what she desperately believes to be true. She simply cannot do that! First, if he HAS committed a crime, then what we have here is a situation where he #1: Was unhappy enough in the relationship to look outside. We cannot eliminate the reality that there were two people in the relationship so there's a good possibility that both contributed to his dissatisfaction. That doesn't excuse his behaviors but it certainly is something to take a look at - otherwise her contributions to the problem will be un checked and she will take those faults onto the next relationship. #2: Was un willing or un able to tell the truth. Now, that could be all his fault, or she could possibly be someone who is hard to approach. (LOL! Does that resonate with anyone on this thread? That's just feedback Rob, and as natural as it feels to get angry about negative feedback, it is information that is best used to figure out what is going on in your relationships with others, including your husband.)

Bottom line, if she just says "screw it" and walks away - the reality is that if she has any part of this problem, then very possibly she might be walking away from a very good match for her, and would most likely be taking her unfound issues with her right into the next relationship.

I believe Rob is exactly where she needs to be. It sounds like she has a keeper, from her point of view - she just wants something more - and the BEST way to achieve that is to look at the self FIRST. Make adjustments where they are needed. That opens doors to truth.

Eventually the truth will come, and yes, four years is a long time to wait but after the work, it will be okay. Certainly, it would have been best to deal with this four years ago, but maybe Rob was not in a place mentally to handle whatever the truth is - NOTE: Be it the truth that her husband was unfaithful OR that the truth is that the problem lies within herself. The truth will come.

Well put AF...
I think the problem that so many of us have with the issue is that we feel that Rob does not yet recognize that forgiveness is not confession and admission of guilt and then forgivness, but that the person that is looking to forgive be open and accepting and WILLING to forgive.....even without a confession. Forgiving is not conditional...forgiving is loving in spite of...loving without knowing just what the wrong is....loving anyway!
As Amy says the truth will come out whether it is that her husband was unfaithful or whether the problem lies within her....but I suspect the real truth is somewhere in between.

I am remembering that old series..."Can this marriage be saved??"....and they would print her side.....then his side and then the counselors' evaluation and recommendations.
I would love to hear the other side of this story.
Linda C

I haven't been willing (in the past years, that's been the delay), but now I am. I never said I was perfect. And it hasn't been a hateful, gut wreenching few years. It's just one issue. Plenty of other things have kept us together and moved us forward. Finding a way to forgive can be easier said than done. I never needed a confession to forgive him. I just wanted, I think, after much talk here, validation from him that what I am seeing/feeling/experiencing are real and understandable things. He said he understood when we talked again, days ago. He said it with his mouth, his demeanor, his eyes. Every inch of him said he accepted why I thought I what I did, and wanted resolultion in a way that was good for both of us. He's read this whole thread. He agreed with all my justifications. Yes, I have a great memory, no sitters, no one cleaning the house, etc. and that I have HAD reason to think what I DID. It's in the past, and we want to get it behind us, in a way that is satisfactory to both. There is no other half of this story. I mean, he's perplexed and knows things could have been nicer on all sides, but nothing kept back except more dirty laundry. Is that what you want, the dirty laundry? He's fine, I'm fine. It's done.

glad to hear it rob.

about that forgiveness without confession thing that a couple of posters recommend:

in every religion & ethical system I can remember, the transgressor has to repent & to ask for forgiveness, then he/she has to atone or make restitution, then forgiveness is granted.

(which sounds like what has happened here.)

Without those steps, "forgiveness" is just a get-out-of-jail-free card, & the transgressor has no humble appreciation for having been forgiven & no motivation to do better in future.

It's done?

I can now get back to the laundry. No pun intended.

"It's done."

Thank you!

Now we're divorcing, so I though an update was in order. How about an extra piece of lingerie (two sizes smaller and a size I haven't worn in a decade.) in the truck (that we've only had for about a year) along with his undergarments on the seat (where my son could've seen?!)? Or a card that says she love his sexy smile... or the bottle of wine opened which he and didn't share. He doesn't drink.

My gut was right. And she lives in low income housing, so maybe she took the jeans and my jewelry because she couldn't afford her own. My point being, listen to your gut. Strange stuff will show out at the end. Just listen to it.

I am very sorry for you. I know you tried, it seems he did not try as hard as you did.
Karen L

Oh no Rob!!! I am so very very sorry! And you're right on listening to your gut. That's how I caught my ex as well, even though I didn't think it could possibly be happening.

As I was skimming over this again, I remembered a girl friend of mine who found underwear under her couch. Not hers. No explaination, ever. She "let it go" and they continued another six years. they're now divorcing.

Again, I'm sorry you had to go through this. Best luck in the future!

Thanks Karen, I appreciate it. I did try really really hard. Too bad he didn't, he's gonna miss out.

Silver, it's ok. We ended up going to counseling, both individual and couples therapy for over a year. We could do more than we did. I found out how right on I was even though he'd spent years trying to tell me how I didn't fit what he thought I should be. It was great to hear a professional tell me I was well adjusted and very justified in feeling the things I felt. She found underwear? Good to know I am not alone. I just find it funny, probably half those here would've said she just forget she bought them and then misplaced them.

It's not the one thing, it's all the little ones that add up and the gut can glue them all together.

That must have been really validating to know you aren't crazy. I know that "crazy-looking-for-something-I can't-find" feeling and to top it off, finding pants that weren't yours... weird.

Yes, at first I thought my girlfriend was a little loco when she told me about the panties she found. But then she showed them to me, and you know how it is... sometimes you can just tell she'd have nothing to do with those crotchless lace wonders with pink bows. LOL!!!

Now here's the part I want to know... did you ever get your jewelry back (who cares about the jeans now that her skeezy bum has been in them)!

Not so far. Danggit. I miss that black pearl bracelet. She can have the watch he gave me. And I miss the necklace, but having my son is worth losing a necklace.

so sorry to hear about divorce but it is for the best.

i was right then, i could never understand why you wanted to make him confess. and you were so sure it happened only one time. it never is just one time. i am glad you didn't spend any longer on trying to forgive or make him confess. if it is still the same woman, it was going on for too long, even if a different one.

make sure you go to a doctor check yourself and good luck in your new life. you certainly are better off alone than with a man who sleeps with different women in your own bed. what a shameless SOB.

Oh Rob, I didn't even ask about your child and how that was going... when I got my divorce I made a deal... you get everything, if I get custody. He agreed. And he's a 'good' dad, but just not in a healthy place to raise a kid.

I wouldn't go back on my deal for the world!!! I tell her, you can buy just about anything at the store, but I can't get another _________.

Geez,alot of negative,rather rude comments to you about your (gut) feelings too.Hope I never have a problem I need to post about.
Women may not have a sixth sense regarding men cheating,but we know our clothes dangit!!!

you said it fire! I just wanted to make sure I did right all the way. I still am doing it right. And it's about to pay off in sole custody, but still get my stuff.

Silver, you should've gotten both. I will. I don't care if I have to pay my lawyer a gazillion dollars, a few thousand now vs. being poor forever. My husband isn't a good dad. He's a great friend to LF when they're hanging out. I may say, if you pay the debt you can have one extra night every other weekend. Maybe. Right now, LF is too happy he's gone to even consider it.

ilove, your clothes comment made me gut laugh. Right on baby! I'm sure they were just being devils' advocates. It's ok. We get like that sometimes. I still love them.

Rob, thank you... but in the state I divorced, they are very big on fathers rights. Plus, he had enough money to fight me to the death. I had an excellent lawyer, the top family lawyer in my area, and had a consult with the second top so he couldn't use that lawyer either. Had I gone to court I would not have ended up with sole custody and it would have been really ugly. By going to mediation I was able to get the best deal I think I could have. My lawyer told me to take it and run. (which would not have paid them any more, so I don't think it was self-serving at all). The consult with the second top lawyer ended with her telling me I'd better just stay with him because there was no way I'd get anything, and I'd never be able to leave the state with my daughter.

Plus the state in which I divorced is no fault. It doesn't matter if he was cheating. None of his poor judgment would have come up in court at all, and that's all I had as proof against him. I think I got a pretty good deal, considering. And we aren't enemies now, which is really really really nice.

Well phooey on that! I am glad you're friends. We keep trying to be, but it won't end up that way. He sent me a proposal for 43% him/57% me custody as his acquience to his original 50/50 proposal. I'm sorry, a child needs one home. I suggested a 35/65 split and he just would NOT go for it, told me to fight him. So I am. But not for 26 more days out of the year, I'm fighting for one home for my sweet kiddo. No bouncing around. Yes, we have fault divorce here, and that's a good thing. I can't believe courts would allow a person (be it a man or a woman) cheating right in front of the child to go unpunished! That's an ultimately selfish thing for someone to do and traumatic for a child. Shame on the courts in your state. I feel for you. Glad you have your baby.

As for being friends we arenÂt enemies anymore... LOL! WeÂre friendly. But we arenÂt friends.

You should have seen the look on my face when I walked into the divorce attorneyÂs office with all my solid, dated, evidence and she told me it wasnÂt worth the paper it was printed on. I cried all the way home.

Fight for your child. I started out wanting my fair half until I realized I could lose her. Then I let everything else go and concentrated only on her. The boat, sure, you can have it. The furniture? Ok. Sure. WhateverÂs valuable to you. But I get custody. I literally shook for a year, not knowing what he would do, or if I would get to keep her.

Worst thing is, she has no idea what went wrong, nor can I ever tell her. It's horrible.

My heart goes out to you. I think youÂre doing the right thing.

First, I'm so sorry that you were betrayed - what a terrible thing for any individual to endure. It will take some work to recover from that, no?

Second, I'm going to go out on a limb here, and be very unpopular no doubt, but it needs to be said. With this deep of a betrayal, the pants were a very small symptom of a much bigger problem. I'm going to say that there was much that was wrong here, and it was the bigger piece that was wrong that led you to question the pants.

We here reading could not 'feel' the wrongness, or absence of intimacy, here in cyber world. The only information we had was "pants."

If anyone else were in a similar situation, it would be good to listen to gut....but believe me, there are plenty of people who have a trust issue to begin with that has nothing do to with their partner. Maybe it's past relationships, poor parenting, whatever....I'd bet that in the next relationship you're in, if this is not resolved, you'll be in hyper drive when it comes to unexplained phenomenon around the house. That said, it is important to understand that there are things that happen that have nothing to do with a spouse's unfaithfulness. Plenty of folks out there hurting because their partner is breathing down their necks for no good reason other than the ketchup is on a different shelf, or an unexplained phone number.

Pants, themselves are not a reason to leave your marriage. Pants plus all the other stuff - absence of intimacy, distance, gut feelings based on other things, etc etc etc, is worthy of some attention.

Nothing worse than getting cheated on. Read some Janis Abrahms Spring, and good luck to you.

AF-"First, I'm so sorry that you were betrayed - what a terrible thing for any individual to endure. It will take some work to recover from that, no?"

Thanks for your concern. I must be numb or just so freaking glad for the chaos to be over, but so far I am really happy. Bliss is the word I keep using. He's been almost a month now and my home is clean, organized, full of loving kindness, meals shared with people who got run off, and most of all, a happy kid.

Second, I'm going to go out on a limb here, and be very unpopular no doubt, but it needs to be said. With this deep of a betrayal, the pants were a very small symptom of a much bigger problem. I'm going to say that there was much that was wrong here, and it was the bigger piece that was wrong that led you to question the pants."

Absolutely. I had strange things going on for a long time. I was just trying to present it objectively. Again, I don't think that could ever happen. I do find it important to note pants don't just walk into a closet. No rationale was ever offered that I agreed with. I had decided levis were thte brand for me, since nothing else ever really fit right; I knew they weren't mine. However, of the weird things, it was the first thing I could hold in my hands, that was couldn't be explained away. I do think undergarments would've been taken more seriously. I don't disagree someone changing in your house is completely unreasonable for most, but a weird bra is harder to explain away.

"I'd bet that in the next relationship you're in, if this is not resolved, you'll be in hyper drive when it comes to unexplained phenomenon around the house. That said, it is important to understand that there are things that happen that have nothing to do with a spouse's unfaithfulness."

It was explained. He was a slime. I'm a big truster and I've been in plenty of relationships since I'm in my forties. I don't think I'll be hypersensitive, although I could see where others might take heed that it could happen to them.

Amy, I think what you said helped the most. I wanted for ME to be able to forgive so that I could find closure. I know how anger can eat a person alive and that the responsibility lay on my shoulders, since he was never going to be "worthy" of the forgiveness. Is anyone ever? But him owning up to it could've helped that. Nonetheless, it is his inadequacy that I will not take personally. I have forgiven. Hey?! Maybe that's why I am so good and blissful now.