Low Voltage UCL characteristics
a. The low voltage option requires a separate transformer.
b. The lights have typically lower profiles than the direct wire equivalents.
c. The bars may be cuttable unlike direct wire equivalents. This is true when low voltage LED tape lights are used.
d. The required dimmer will depend on the transformer used. If a magnetic transformer is used the dimmer needs to be a magnetic low voltage (MLV) dimmer. In small installations, a rheostatic dimmer may be used/ deployed. However, such dimmers do not save energy.
e. Most installations will be 60W or less for practical reasons.
f. The cost of the transformer(s) must be accounted for as it is typically a significant item.
g. The dimming load is (are) the transformer(s).
h. There are many vendors and a great variation in product quality and abilities (e.g. - flexibility, color rendition index or CRI, output, dimmability, wiring constraints - most are not forgiving of wiring mistakes)
i. Choices available - LED tape, bars, panels.

Direct wire UCL characteristics
a. The height is ~ 1 inch. The Philips eW profile bars are 0.88" tall, but the optional junction box could be an unwelcomed protrusion.
b. The light output could be greater than low voltage LED tape lights.
c. The dimmer for the Philips eW bars will have to be of the electronic low voltage (ELV) variant.
d. Longer runs may be possible than with the low voltage equivalents.

Common to both options
a. Having flat bottomed cabinets without intervening fences is a great advantage as you will be able to form continuous sections of illumination.
b. Separate sections of light bars should be wired in parallel so that problems in one section do not affect other sections. Consider the transformer as a simple junction box for direct wire configurations. Each section will be AC in the direct wire configuration (using romex 14/2 or 12/2)

c. There could be interesting shadow zones depending on the relative position of the bars. This typically happens in corners where the light bars should be placed perpendicular to one another rather than on the hypothenuse. There could be a shadow zone between bars that have a significant spacing between the ends.
d. If the light bars / beads of light are not to be seen reflected off the countertop, the light output should be directed towards the backsplash. An alternative could be to use edge lit light panels which really is the equivalent of aiming the light at something other than the countertop.

Hope there's enough food for thought.

The answer depends on the distance to the ceiling/ closest main reflecting surface and the amount of space to hold the light bar. If the distance is too close, the output should be lower.

If the above cabinet lighting is just for accenting some architectural features, the output from low voltage strips would suffice.

If the cabinets have intervening fences/ stiles, it may be difficult (or impossible) to form a continuous led section. Notching the cabinets is difficult once they are installed.

Corners should have the bars fitted perpendicular to each other to avoid interesting shadow zones.

The next is to decide whether to use direct wire or low voltage. This is more a logistical/ financial than technical issue as it requires selecting possible candidates and pricing out all the components involved in setting up the system.

Low voltage
If the sections are too far from the DC power supply (usually misnamed transformers) and/ or power requirement for the section too significant, additional DC power supplies may be necessary.

A thicker gauge wire may also be necessary. Many sites have a calculator for figuring out the wire gauge for a given power draw.

The cost of the transformer could be a significant component of the system which could result in the low voltage system costing more than equivalent direct wire systems

Direct Wire
eW profile is supposed to be good for up to a section as long as 50ft.
Direct wire lights are probably easier setup for installs with multiple long sections to be controlled from a single switch since there is no need to compute the wire gauge to compensate for DC voltage drop and figure out the correct power supplies.

Some reasons to use direct wire
1. High output desired for multiple sections spread out over a large area/ where low voltage equivalents could become too expensive.
2. No desire to deal with low voltage calculation, DC power supplies which need to be located in an accessible location. Or greater familiarity with AC devices.
3. Possibly better component quality (more likely for Philips eW profile) and CRI.

Reasons to use low voltage
1. Lower output. Low voltage bars have smaller conductors and/ or heat sinking that would limit the ability to drive/ over drive the LED emitters. This differentiating factor is likely to become less important as the LED emitters become more efficient.
2. Small enough install where the costs between Low voltage and Direct wire (AC) are not too dissimilar.
3. Requirement for low profile (~ 0.5")
4. Exact fit requirements, curved surfaces - low voltage tape can be cut, some bars may also be modified.
5. More vendors, more options.

Anyways - I'm a DIY'er. Needs/Constraints are:
(1) My cabinets are frameless, thus their bottoms are flush with the doors. This has highly influenced my implementation. I'm not opposed to putting up a small molding if need be, but wouldn't mind avoiding if possible. So thin is important, as well as hiding everything.
(2) Cost: Do not desire to spend $1k on lighting, so highly specialized suppliers are not an option - especially when I can find the same lights elsewhere for significantly less - of course I lose the specialized help.
(3) Dimmable: a 12 or 24V system, dimmable power supply, will put a magnetic switch in the wall (two switches, two separate run/circuits, one long, one short run across the kitchen).
(4) Would like to tile the walls in the next week (have a granite backsplash), so I do want to prep for my wallswitch, wires for my main run here quickly.

Options:
(a) Aluminum Light Bars: Common design I've seen from major or small suppliers, eBay direct from Taiwan, etc, 3/4" wide, a little less than 1/2" deep to protrude below the cabinet. Interconnects connect bars, etc. My long run (with 2 interior cabinets) is 300cm, 45W.

(b) PCB Flexible Strips: This option gets me very low profile, could get waterproof to help protect, diffuse the light slightly, options on how many LED's. In some ways, this is an inexpensive option that could easily be updated in the future if other low profile aluminum housing options appear and/or drop in price. My wires are in place, PCB installed with 3M tape.

This option has me considering putting a run on top of my cabinets - would make very nice mood lighting - but I don't really want to put another dimmable power supply in just for this - could look to use the "cheap power" options maybe for this secondary run - i.e. cheap 12/24 power supplies - but maybe reaching too far, after all I don't need to make this more complicated.

(c) Flush Mount Aluminum Housing w/PCB Strips and diffuser: This one really interests me, as it presents a rather finished look. Of course it may require me to remove some cabinet and/or run the router upside down (Ikea cabines, so they can come down if needed). It does require a 0.2" depth in the 3/4" cabinet bottom (which I'll make sure is doable before I destroy my cabinets!). My minor concern here is how the PCB mounted in the channel with diffuser will light my countertops (which BTW are a dark granite, so I'm expecting reflections). This would be a rather slick and finished looking design - of course more cost for the aluminum channels. Superbright LED's sells them for $25/100cm for the channel plus diffuser (clear or frosted?), nevermind, these are actually quite cheap!

Guess I'm just looking for David's (or other's) quick comments or thoughts on my options. My biggest quick decision is to put some wires in the wall in preparation. The open issue is gauge from the dimmable power supply to the start of my 300cm main run/circuit. Basically 2 areas separated by the stove, with two cabinet interiors mixed in. All to run off the single switch/dimmer. As I mentioned, I know it's a 45W requirement for the aluminum strips - haven't calculated for the PCB option (but will do that next).

thanks...

Measure off the wire needed - use string to estimate the lengths of each run. The environmental lights web site has a nice calculator to help figure out the gauge needed.

The power draw and wire gauge will be affected by the lights you install, length and distance from the power supply.

More power supplies could be used if necessary. Some folks managed to buy the Magnitude branded power supplies.

All of the power supplies need to be accessible.

There will be stuff on the counter top to detract from the line of light/ beads of light reflected off the countertop. Alternatively, mount the light bars so that they shine onto the backsplash (assuming a highly non-reflective backsplash). That will be an implementation of indirect lighting, so the lighting output would have to increase.

Using a router on the underside of an installed cabinet could be difficult and challenging. Uninstalling the cabinets and routing them on a bench would be more practical.

Low voltage lights are somewhat tricker.
1. Need to know the existing power draw of all the lights.
2. Voltage used - 12V or 24V.
3. Power supply - 40W, 60W,...?
4. New needs such as dimming.
5. Power draw of replacement lights.
6. Wire gauge used for existing install.
7. Length of wire sections.

If given a choice, I'd pick the Philips eW Profile.

Kitchen was gutted for the renovation. Told electrician I wanted UCL, but at the time, had no idea what kind I wanted, other than direct-wired and dimmable. He could offer no advice or suggestions. He did the wiring for 5 lights on 2 walls, all controlled by 3 switches on different sides of the room.

I purchased the Ancona LED lights from Costco (link below). He installed these for me with the basic Lutron Maestro dimmers that he used for other lights in my house. These dimmers do not work with these lights.

Do we just have the wrong dimmer? Do we also need a transformer? If so, am I looking at a lot more expense and opening up walls?

The alternative is to just use regular switches and have the ability to individually control each light bar with the on-low-high switch on the bar. Now that I have them installed, dimming might not be as important to me as I thought it would be -- especially if it would require 3 more expensive dimmers and a transformer.

The fixture is probably not dimmable given that it has a hi/lo/off switch.

It will never pay back the cost on energy.

Thanks.

I'm thinking to go with the direct wire product, so maybe it's irrelevant for me. Davidtay seems to really like the phillips eW. Maybe go with that.

Thanks for the reference to the UniLume product, David. Looks like the same technology as in the 60W replacement bulb from Phillips.

Both the eW profile and UniLume require splice boxes.

Why do you like the eW Profile better than the MaxLite direct wire solution?

Do you know any more about "HED" dimming technology from Lutron?

I see that the MaxLite actually recommends the Lutron DVCL-153P. What does that say about the integral power supply type they use? Is it electronic, magnetic, or something else?

I deduce from your comment that Philips eW Profile uses magnetic power supply? Hmm... but Philips recommends the ELV dimmer. Are ELV dimmers compatible to both electronic and magnetic power supplies? What about MLV dimmers? Or is it just NOT that simple?

These compatibility questions have dogged me for months. What type of dimmer technology is compatible to what type of drivers and why. Can anyone point me to a good online technical explanation?

Kind Regards-

The eW profile requires an elv dimmer. Most low voltage Ucl use magnetic power supplies and require magnetic low voltage dimmers.

Electronic power supplies need elv dimmers. You cannot mix and match
Most Elv dimmers work well with led.

Lutron has a nice write up

No, I've not seen the UniLume in person.

The drawbacks that UniLume addresses are primarily
1. Little glaring beads of light.
2. Multiple light sources casting multiple shadows. This effect may not always be noticeable. There are festoon light solutions for UCL which work just fine. Some have also used rope lighting without noticing the multiple shadow issue.

The first problem is very noticeable when high output LEDs are run at/ near max output over a very reflective surface.
Work arounds for both issues are -
a. Use a diffusing lens (eg - eW profile, Talea-HP )
b. Position the LEDs to indirectly light the counter top (typically the most reflective surface).

The last issue UniLume claims to solve is the limited light spread of LEDs which might be true for some LED strips, but not so for the Talea-HP, eW profile or the phonier LED bars.
From a purely technical perspective the UniLume should be a game changer, but cost considerations may eliminate it as a practical solution.

Since it is a transformer, the dimming can be done on the 120V side, which will be more convenient for my installation (I think). I'll be using multiple transformers from the same 120V regulator, to handle total power requirements.

Quite a number of low voltage installs using the environmental lights/ superbrightleds/ nora lighting/ Photonier strips (24V DC) use similar power supplies and a MLV dimmer. Others have used 12V DC.

It might be more convenient to source all the parts from 1 supplier.

The original thread (of which this is a continuation) was started with those strips in mind (even though a number of principles are universal).

I am doing a new build. I have (2) 36" uppers on one well separated by the range/hood. I have a 27" cabinet and an 18" cabinet on the other wall separated by the sink which will have a recessed light.

I looked at the Philips ew lights but they only come in 9", 19", and 39" so I wouldn't have a good fit for my 36" cabinets.

I saw these from Costco mentioned earlier. I guess I could do (2) 14" bars per 36" space. I don't really care if they are dimmable or not.

But I'm completely unable to really tell if this will work or not...???

The main point is whether the bars will produce enough light. Using a measure such as lumens (for example) instead of measuring the light output by watts would be a better means of determining whether the lights would be usable.

Environmentallights and other websites do have charts that help illustrate the light output with distance and illumination angle.

If you expect to use the UCL alone without any other light sources, the bars should be capable of producing > 200 lumens per ft (very rough guess without bothering about distances).

With the UniLume (~ 600 lumens per ft), you'd most likely have them dimmed.

I'm redoing my kitchen and we want to do some dimmable UCLs.. We picked up "5 Meter Reel Warm White 2700k Flexible LED Ribbon 300 Leds 16 Ft by LEDwholesalers, 2026ww-27k" from Amazon (link below).. we also bought a "LED Driver", it's the BG-30W-12V as pictured on http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/567794631/12V_2_5A_Led_driver_30W.ht ml.

I'd like to know what we need (in addition to or instead of) in order to make these LEDs dimmable with a normal Lutron or Leviton dimmable wall switch (like the Leviton TGI06-1LB Dimmer Incandescent Single-Pole/3-Way 600W 120 Volt)..

I've read on gardenweb about needing a REAL transformer and then you can wire the power to the wall switch/dimmer, then to the transformer, and then to the LED tape.. that would be ideal; but I don't know what to get as the transformer.

I suspect we have the wrong stuff.. that's okay.. there's still time to get the right stuff...

My contractor is going down the path of getting a low voltage dimming interface (ELV-1000 from http://www.lutron.com/TechnicalDocumentLibrary/031202b.pdf) and a dimmer switch (TGCL-153PH-WH - http://www.amazon.com/Lutron-TGCL-153PH-WH-Toggler-Single-Pole-Toggle/ dp/B0052EC160). Is this the right path? Is there a better way that doesn't involve the "interface", etc?

Thanks so much!

I bought one as a test/sample, and was really impressed. I got the "warm white" which they claim is 3100K. It matched extremely well with other incandescent lighting in my kitchen. Using a standard dimmer, it would only go down to about 50% brightness, but after switching to a Lutron CL dimmer, I was able to take it much lower (I'd guess in the 15% range). The lip below my upper cabinets is only 3/4", and these are completely invisible at any typical eye level.

The only thing that might be a problem is that the LED strip comes encased in a silicone shield, obviously for safety since higher voltages are involved. This also makes it suitable for wet locations. The downside however is that this makes it too big to fit in standard strip channels, so if you have highly polished countertops and need a diffuser strip you'll have to get a bit creative.

All in all an impressive product though. I'm looking forward to seeing more products like this come out.

I need led accent lights in my highest cabinets that have glass doors. The cabinets are separate pieces. How do I start on the left with the led lights, go through side walls of cabinets (x3 cabinets) then hop over to the sink (no upper cabinets at all) and continue led lights for 3 more upper cabinets? So there is a 48" gap where there are no uppers. Will this have to be 2 separate lights? I just want them as accent lights. We are putting antique dishes up there to show them off. Could also be used as a night light, but we do not want hot lights like xenon or halogen.

Then we also need bright undercabinet lights. About 24" on left side of sink then 48" sink/window then continues with 20" of lights, then 42"vent hood, then another 20" of lights. So will I need separate lights for each undercabinet area? 3 switches?

Don't want low voltage or puck lights. Any suggestions? Am I stuck with fluorescent? Thanks,

Peke

If not, your options are limited.

I will be posting my final design in mid to late March once I've got mine installed and working! David Tay was a big help.

I think low voltage tape LEDs are the best for both situations. But you do need in wall power for best setup.

Measure out the clearances you have first. Fluorescent (t4 or t5) may turn out to be too bulky. You may need to use a solution like that sold by Phantom Lighting.

Yes, the lights will have to be separate. They may be joined in parallel to a 3 (or more) way controlling switch setup.

A splice box will be required to connect the romex coming out of your walls to the wiring connected to the light bars/ strips.

As stated, a new and less complicated alternative for kitchen direct wire LED integration in under cabinet lighting.

Certificates CE, RoHS European import

Wonder about safety issues of product as so new. No Underwriters Laboratories seal since new and imported.

Thoughts?

Thanks David...so would I have 4 separate switches to control the lights? One for upper left cabinet inside glass and one for right side. Then one for under left cabinet and one for right side. Is there any way to have all inside cabinet lights (behind glass doors and separated by a sink with no uppers) on one switch? What about the undercabinet lights on one switch? (separated by 48" sink area) (Sorry...you lost me on 3-way and parallel.) LOL

I looked at Phantom Lighting website, but couldn't figure out which one I needed.

Thanks,
Peke

The lighting can be controlled with one or two switches (3 way setup)

Wireless switches utilizing enOcean technology can be used to create multi-way switching setups.

I will post a diagram for the 3way and parallel setup later

If you prefer concealed lighting, you'd need to figure out if you can hide strips like the MaxLite or eW Profile (for direct wire).

Otherwise, you'd have to work with low voltage lighting like the PhantomLighting setup or some other low profile led tape/ bar setup.

If centrally located string of pucks in each cabinet is acceptable, you need to use low voltage lighting.

Assuming that low voltage is necessary for the uppers, you need to figure out where the driver will reside (it has to be accessible) and a separate switch location to control the cabinet lighting.

2. Would controlling the lights in the upper cabinets independently of the rest of the lighting be desirable. If the upper cabinet lighting uses a separate circuit from the UCL, having a separate switch becomes necessary.

Recommendations
0. Find out from your cabinet maker if they would recommend using direct wire (eg low profile eW Profile) light bars for internal cabinet lighting. If they don't, you need to go the low voltage route.

1. Find out from your cabinet maker/ installer where each of the boxes for the upper cabinets will end up and the best locations for a hole.

The location will need to be transferred to the wall, wiring run and the necessary holes made.

2. Plan on having 2 separate circuits anyway (min 2 switches).

I've added a link to a description of a 3 way switch diagram with multiple lights (the lights are in parallel so that even if one goes out, the remaining light(s) still function.

If you don't want the added expense of a physical (real) 3 way switching circuit, you could opt to install an enOcean based wireless switch.

The nice things about enOcean type switches are that
a. they utilize energy harvested from flicking the switch to transmit the signal
b. they implement a virtual multi-way circuit and you can eliminate the wire runs required for multi-way circuits (3 or more way).
c. disparate circuits can be controlled together to give the illusion of a single circuit.
d. lights can be automated.

Leviton enOcean example
http://www.smarthomeusa.com/ShopByManufacturer/Leviton/Item/WSS10-D/

Would I get the same for the upper glass doors or some other direct wire lights? Only the top cabinet shelf will have the glass fronts.

Thanks, Peke

or these

http://www.elementalled.com/shop-by-item/dimmable-led-lights/dimmable- items-light-bars.html

Peke

Probably not really suitable for in cabinet use - too much room taken up.

My designer recommended the Lithonia Rayzer LED bars in 18” (353 lumens) and 24” (441 lumens) lengths. It looks like the Rayzer requires a separate transformer and step dimmer -- I’m not sure if I can use 1 transformer and dimmer for all 4 cabinets, since the lights will not be physically connected (except by the in-wall wiring). The more expensive Tech Lighting Unilume bars have an integrated driver, but the available lengths do not work as well for me. I would have to use 13” bars (432 lumens) under the 18.5” cabinets and 19” bars (645 lumens) under the 28” cabinets.

The UC lights are an important light source in my kitchen, as our wood ceiling prevents us from using recessed cans, so the UC lights are intended to provide both task and ambient lighting. For good light dispersion, would it be better to use longer, lower lumen bars or shorter, higher lumen bars? Are there different products you would recommend to better fit my needs?

Longer bars would be better. You could stagger the bars to fit 2 13" under the 18.5" cabinet runs.

Alternatives - eW profile, maxlite direct wire lights that have been discussed above.

I would suggest adding pendants / suspended light bars for better ambient lighting.

I guess I want the upper glass cabinets to have a light in the front that projects toward the back of the cabinet. I am not sure if that is the best or not. I just want to spotlight some antique dishes.

I am not sure about puck lights. Don't they get really hot? I think I need LED. My electrician has never done any of the tapes with transformers so I don't want him to learn on my house. LOL

I think direct wire would be best for us since he knows how to do that. I just need to find the lights. Maybe I will wait until all cabinets are in, then choose the lights.

Peke

Waiting until the cabinets go in is a bad decision as putting in wiring then without damaging the cabinets is nearly impossible.

Options
1. Use eW profile strips mounted on the sides.
2. Give your internal cabinet dimensions to Phantom Lighting to build you a custom system. This will be a low voltage system.

In either case, you still need to consult with your cabinet maker and installer.

So I cannot do anything direct wired....only low voltage?

Peke

Direct wire devices will require larger holes in the cabinets and the bars are typically larger than the equivalent low volrage devices.

For in cabinet applications, low voltage devices are typically deployed as size is more important.

It is possible to estimate the dimensions of the cabinets, height above the countertops and mark out the approximate locations for the necessary holes in the dry wall first even with minimal input from the cabinet maker.

You might want to contact Phantom Lighting directly and discuss things.

In addition to UCL, we will have above cabinet cove lighting, 2 aimable LED spots in a soffit over the bay window behind the sink, an 8' long fluorescent up-down sconce (Artemide Talo) above recessed cabinetry on one wall, and a track with 3 pendants above the island. So, the UCL are not the primary lights, but they are probably more important for ambient lighting in our kitchen than in kitchens with lots of pot lights, so I want to make sure they provide enough light (lumens and width of light).

Assuming that the best solution now is to use the installed wiring, you could have the bars staggered so that there is some overlap or arranged in a W or \ \ fashion.

I was worried the light might look strange (not in a straight line) if the fixtures are staggered, but maybe that is not a concern? The electrician wanted me to just use the field cutable LED tape he usually uses, but I thought the light quality would be better using a bar with a lens to diffuse the light (to avoid dots on the counter).

The staggering of fixtures does not matter as much as the illumination result as the underside of the cabinets are not directly visible.

For example, if the expected result are uniformly lit counter tops without shadow regions (near the top), the bars may have to be placed in a staggered pattern (especially in right angle corners).

The tiny dots of light can be avoided if the lights are installed like cove lighting.

In reality, when the kitchen is used, there will be things on the countertops to obscure the reflection.

Does that sound correct to those of you with more knowledge of the electrical code than I have? Is it OK to wire the cord to your romex cable?

You may be confusing the "small under mount junction box" with transformer.

The 2 items are not the same.

The small under mount junction box is used to connect the romex wiring exiting the wall to the lamp cord attached to the LED strip.

It would be better to put a direct wire (inside the wall, on the same circuit) into the other cabinet section than to use jumper cables.

The Philips lighting 11 inch 3000k white eW profile powercore is 120 volt and has a small profile of 1.7 inches high by .88 inches wide by 9.25 inches long.

Direct wire lighting should be relatively easy to replace compared to low voltage in that you could conceivably change out one vendor's light bars for another (eg - unilume for maxlite).

Having said that, the likelihood of replacing a LED bar is low, barring any major mishaps such as a roof leak /fire.

So I guess heres my real question. If I want to use these and have them dimmable as the product description suggests they are, how is the best way to do it then? Is it going to pass code if I tell the electrician to just cut the plug, its a new construction home? Sorry, really am a noob with electrical, I'm sure the electrician would know but I find if you sorta know what you are talking about going into the conversation, it commands more respect.

Hopefully Apollo expands their product description to be more precise, its somewhat counter-intuitive to have a plug and play LED strip and advertise it as fully dimmable but not explain how its accomplished (and in fact can't be accomplished by the plug provided).

As stated earlier

Posted by davidtay (My Page) on Fri, Mar 8, 13 at 17:58
The cord cannot go inside a junction box embedded inside a wall. However, it can be connected to romex inside an exposed junction box using wire nuts.

I'm really stuck in that my light rail is 3/4" and very few direct wire manufacturers have lower or equal height profiles. I've called Lunilume distributors near me but they all say they don't carry it. Strangely a lot don't know about Lightolier either (part of EPhillips?).

Any low profile direct wire LED light suggestions out there, or ways to lower xenon's produced heat? In many ways I'd prefer xenon (like the light), but I have a few glass cabinets and am concerned with the bottom shelf. I don't even know if xenon direct wire comes in 3/4" low profile.

Thinking maybe I"ll skip UCL until something new breaks on the market. Wonder how I'd deal with the romex capped in a junction box if that's even possible to buy some time. I guess I'm going on a little, sorry. This lighting and venting MUA are tough to figure out to the point of an actual purchase.

Frogster

The Seagull ambience LED options appear to be mostly low voltage.

To reiterate
Some reasons to use direct wire
1. High output desired for multiple sections spread out over a large area/ where low voltage equivalents could become too expensive.
2. No desire to deal with low voltage calculation, DC power supplies which need to be located in an accessible location. Or greater familiarity with AC devices.
3. Possibly better component quality (more likely for Philips eW profile) and CRI.

Reasons to use low voltage
1. Lower output. Low voltage bars have smaller conductors and/ or heat sinking that would limit the ability to drive/ over drive the LED emitters. This differentiating factor is likely to become less important as the LED emitters become more efficient.
2. Small enough install where the costs between Low voltage and Direct wire (AC) are not too dissimilar.
3. Requirement for low profile (~ 0.5")
4. Exact fit requirements, curved surfaces - low voltage tape can be cut, some bars may also be modified.
5. More vendors, more options.

Please read through the discussions on this thread (& the predecessor)

You need to price out the entire system and at least one other alternative. It will be a substantial investment.

Since you're going to have to live with the UCL, make sure that it will be something that works well for you.

I am noticing that Europeans tend to use an ucl LED puck light design in the kitchen. While I can't recall the manufacturer, I recently viewed an ucl puck of 43 or so diodes per round puck (designed in response to consumer requests), and is dim-able (very bright).

Any thoughts on LED ucl puck lights, which casts a sort of triangular light rather than rectangular light for UCL?

Here's a link to some new LED lighting concepts, commercial and residential at the fair.

Today I meet with a lighting designer about Lunilume which is less than 3/4" height profile and hard wired (splice box required).

Lastly, Lowes Kichler Utilitech LED can be hard wire spliced I believe but major draw back of not dimmed. Not the best reviews however. Their newer Utilitech Pro is dimmable, but over 1 inch.

I keep viewing low voltage tape, strips and bars DIY on youtube: with a little electrician's help due to my 120 AC fear, I think that is a very viable option, especially aided by davidtay's wiring notes and the first ucl diy thread.

We currently have hard wired flourescent lights. I want to switch them out for LEDs. I bought Juno upled pro series in various sizes to fit the cabinet lengths we have. they are listed as 3000k and dimmable. I saw them in a local lighting store and I liked the light, bright but not blue.

A few questions:
1. They come in 14, 22, 30" sizes. If I have a 28" cabinet, is a 22" unit ok or will that be too small. Do you just use the longest strip that fits under the cabinet?

2. The specs state that they are compatible with several magnetic low voltage dimmers and electronic low voltage dimmers. Is there one dimmer that is better than the other?

3. My GC says that lights are usually installed closer to the wall, which is how the current ones are installed. After reading the posts here and looking at the spec sheet, it looks like the recommended location is to install them as close to the front of the cabinet as possible. When I told him, he said, "lets just do it in the middle instead." So, front or middle?

I have the lights. I need to buy the dimmers and if we mount them closer to the front, I will need a cable to allow for that. Does that sound right?

Thanks so much for any help you can give me!

You might have to use the old position if finding the appropriate box is too difficult.
I'm guessing that the existing fixtures have the tube in front rather than facing the wall.

Using an ELV dimmer would be more sensible.

Just to clarify, if this is what I need, would you recommend mounting them closer to the front of the cabinet? Our uppers are 12" deep and bottoms are 24".

Thanks so much for your help!!

12" is not that much room, and the lights you're intending to use aren't that thin, so the variation in the placement wouldn't be that significant.

I would suggest considering using the existing location as that would be more cost effective.

Should I look for a different kind/brand of light?

The uppers are standard depth, which I thought was 12inches, is that not correct? So, then when does placement become an issue?

Sorry for all of the questions. I thought I was on the right track with the lighting...

Thanks again for all of your help!!!

If you use a sleeker bar like either the MaxLite or eW profile, there is more room to play with. Some place the light at the front and angle the light towards the backsplash.

A traditional UCL is usually placed at the rear to middle as the lamp faces forward and the housing offsets the lamp towards the front. Placing the UCL at the rear ensures that the romex wire is largely obscured by the housing body.

I think you should price out the entire system you looked at as well as another alternative such as the eW profile or Maxlite bars.

The lower the profile, the higher the price.

12 three-prong led fixtures of various sizes for 8 uppers
13 modular led power switches
10 50 watt modular hardwire supplies

$2032.00 not including tax

Is there a less expensive way to still use LED for under-cabinet lighting?

Can you pull the 120v romex through and connect to a halogen or other puck light for now? Then later, change out to LED when costs drop?

Or can you forget AC romex pull and just do entirely low voltage for savings (led 3M tape-does that wreck painted cabinets when removed)?

Thank you very much for any advice. While I've read and re-read these threads, I'm just not grasping how to do these under-cabinet lights without spending a small fortune.

With low voltage, you might be constrained to either 12V or 24V depending on what you're replacing.

Converting from low voltage to line voltage will require pulling the necessary wiring and potentially making additional holes in the cabinets.

Removing stick on lights may pull off some paint.

Why do you need so many switches?

I have to ask the Rexel dealer to review how he came up with this.

I do agree having direct wire placed while down to back walls (who knows what shape they are in) is prudent. That's why I've been searching vigorously and rather unsuccessfully for a low profile LED direct wire. This isn't even the Unilume quote.

I may have to consider other lighting format for now. One nice aspect of my frameless cabinet is it's 3/4" thick on the bottom of the uppers, so xenon-produced heat will have farther to travel before impacting items in the lower shelf.

Doesn't dimming of xenon lower the voltage and thus resistance induced heat?

davidtay, have you looked at Halo led ucl, by Cooper Lighting? I briefly looked at it and bookmarked to research this week. Imported but priced reasonably.

Thanks very much.

Just notch out the wood.

"Using a router on the underside of an installed cabinet could be difficult and challenging."
Why would you use or need a router?
If you wanted to recess some wires or a light strip maybe, but that is getting into pretty serious overkill (unless your know folks that like to lay their head on the counter to check the bottom of the cabinets).

Try a "Gent's saw' and a little handwork.

It will easily cut the small section of case side below the bottom of the cabinet floor, and then you just pop it out with a chisel.

Has had work died so badly everything must be powered?

Even a tiny notch on the bottom of a cabinet edge?

If you are worried about the wood not breaking off cleanly enough, make repeated adjacent cuts and use a smaller chisel to clear them (maybe even bevel down and at an angle to start).

Even in the age of 'power everything' some handwork if often needed.

You could even use a very narrow blade on one of the oscillating tool cutters to clear the waste between the two vertical cuts.

You can take an oscillating tool saw blade and cut it down even narrower.

My Unilume quote came in at around $2600 for 9 lines etc of various sizes. Surprisingly not much different from the first quote.

davidtay or anyone, have you ever used tresco LED lighting products? similar to unilume in quality as far as I can see from spending some hours on their videos and site. Huge selection of LED products.

Not feeling the cost here...but more manufacturers should weigh in soon on my lighting plan for ucl and in cabinet light.

For example, I can see one switch and one accessible transformer on EACH side of my kitchen, for total of 2 switches and two transformers. I can place each of the power supplies in an accessible place with separate AC switches (dimmer switches) close enough to each transformer to be wired, then the DC wires/jumpers connect to the led bar lights.

I don't get how you can jump clear across the room to the other side using just one switch and power supply without low voltage wires going into ceilings or floors to get to the other side, which my remodel isn't doing.

What am I missing here?

ps: Peke, if you're still here, how did you lighting turn out? Did you figure out your install. thanks.

People do have low voltage wiring in the walls, floors and ceilings - lighting, sound systems, networking ,...

If you don't want to use in wall wiring, there is the flat wire option which is embedded in the wall texture.

Say what?

Dimming Xenon charged light will result in more darkening of the envelope by the firmament (with a decrease in life) but it still depends on how often and what level you dim them.

If they send most of their life on full they will be just fine.

Thanks brickeyee. Btw, what's your opinion on LED under-cabinet lighting? Our local lighting designer who works at the lighting supply and is very knowledgeable, told me LED pricing will never come done due to its requirement of trace elements. Not sure about that.

To follow our local code of 18" to combustible surface lateral to my range, I raised the cabinets 3/4" and bought a 3/4" light rail. Given that step and frameless flat cabinets, one of the lowest profile lights is needed which happen to be LED. Not a bad choice, just that my GC wants direct wire. It's all going to work out though, and LED it will be.

The easiest option is to use direct wire.

Semiconductor fabrication is often protected as proprietary until no longer economically useful.

Patents require you to reveal more information than the manufacturers are willing to give up.

The actual manufacturing procedures and steps are the 'tricks' that make it work.

To keep the cost more in my budget, I wish to ask if I could consider centering a 19" bar on each of three 30" cabinets and later consider adding another 7" bar to each via a jumper cable.

As I understand it, Unilume lumens are 600 lumens per foot at 90 CRI/3000 K. That is a lot of bright light and as my cabinets are long, a lot of light over a long distance. For this reason, I wonder if I might compromise in the above manner initially. Three of the 30" cabinets will have in-cabinet lighting, as well as LED recessed cans above pointed to counter top edge above.

Thank you for your thoughts on this matter. Time to demo is approaching and soon I must make my decision.

12", 18", 24", and 30"
Direct wired
Dimmable
LED

David have you heard anything yet?

Each is expected to be wired directly to a romex wire coming out of the wall which would be the case when previously configured for fluorescent Ucl.

The height is > 1" which is taller than either the maxlite, eW profile or newer lights from Philips.

davidtay, I'll look on their site, but is there a newer Phillips direct hardwire, low profile I missed? My profile is 3/4" and it's pretty slim pickings in mid-upper mid price range. Thank you very much.

The eW profile is not going away as it is a complete system.

Either the maxlite or the eW profile (for direct wire) should work fine even with a style of 3/4".
Another is the solid Apollo led lighting as listed earlier in this thread.

If you must have a slimmer profile, low voltage could yield some savings vs UniLume.