DavidTay and others, I just started a separate thread on this but since this thread is so well read I'm cross posting.

I purchased SuperbrightLED's and they are going in this week. My electrician called me last night to say he discovered that if he uses a transformer from another vendor, that will void the warranties (for both the SuperbrightLED products and the transformer.) Anyone else dealing with this? Should I care? SuperbrightLEDs is a new vendor to me and I don't want to be without recourse if some of their products fail.

IMO, it should not be a big issue so long as the correct transformer (magnetic, 24V output, enough power) is hooked up.

Try out the lights before you install - lay them out, power on for a couple of hours.

For myself, I would buy a replacement from Ledpro when a lightbar burns out. No problems to date.

It seems that most posters are using LED fixtures rather than LED light strips/tape/ribbon, ie. that come on reels in 5-meter lengths and use adhesive tape to attach them to
cabinet bottoms, etc. What's the advantage of these fixtures? They certainly cost more than the LED strips/tape/ribbon.

The most commonly discussed LED fixture on this thread is the rigid LED strip sold by a number of resellers.

The LED bars are LED ribbon stuck onto a rigid aluminium backing at the factory.

Advantages
1. A rigid stick which is relatively easy to handle and protection from abuse.
2. Heat sinking.

Disadvantage
1. Difficult to cut.

In many cases, it is preferable to use precut, factory assembled rigid bars as the LEDs and various components on the ribbon are SMT (surface mounted) onto a flexible PCB (printed circuit board).

It does not take too much force to destroy a SMT joint or the flexible PCB.

On the other hand, if you're comfortable dealing with thin flexible pcb you get more options.

Thanks, davidtay. What about the relative costs of LED tape lights vs. rigid, aluminum-backed versions? I recently bought several reels of the cutable, flexible tape lights (12V, 2700 Kelvin) for $4 per foot, without much shopping around. How does that compare to the cost of the rigid fixtures? These were not waterproof, so for the strips mounted above the cabinets, I stuck the tape lights to 1/2-in. thick wood strips -- 'cause we water plants that
also reside up there and things can get a little wet.

I encountered no damage or failures from handling the tape lights during their installation, so they don't seem overly fragile. They've only been installed for a week, so there may still be some gremlins lurking out there.

With several "run" lengths, varying from 1-ft. to 6-ft,
the cutable feature is a real convenience.

"Calculate the total power draw - lights + wire. "

Wires do not draw power, though they can have losses.

prttimer, the price range can be wide - depending on the LEDs and other components used.

Some are also more fragile than others.

brickeyee, you left out the second sentence.
"Calculate the total power draw - lights + wire. You need to take into account the line loss (the longer the dc lines are)"

If you look from the prespective of the power supply, P = I * V.

Great thread. My new kitchen is coming up 3yrs old, so it's about time to finalizing lighting and tile, eh? My cabinets are Ikea birch with flat bottoms (i.e. no front molding added which I'd like to keep if possible), so I've been watching LED prices fall, as I want something low profile. Love the LED ruler, but I can't see spending $1000 for what I need! As a matter of fact I was about to give up prior to reading this thread, and had just bought 3 of the $30 LED strip packs at Costo for a temporary solution until prices come down (6 1 ft sections, power, switch/dimmer, and just stick them on w/tape!) But I'd need to add a small molding to hide them.

ledpro-TW mentioned in this thread looks like a great alternative, which I'm going to have to price out and consider. However the PCB strips are also very very interesting. I'm going to have to do some lumen calculations to see how similar/different these two options are. I don't really want a Las Vegas look under my cabinets with the PCB strips ;)

I have 3 cabinets with glass doors, that would be nice if lit - I think. If it only makes sense if they're on their own circuit and power supply, than I'll forget about doing it as it would drive 2 additional power supplies, dimmers, etc. If it would be logical to run them on the same circuit dimmer as my undercabinet task lights, than I'd be inclined to install them.

Thinking about it - if I want "mood lighting" in my kitchen, than why wouldn't I want the interior and undercabinet lights both on...maybe dimmed?? If the interior lights are on when I need task lighting, so?

Am I thinking about this correctly?

Alternative is to just get a couple inexpensive $8 24W power supplies from LED Pro, and mount a couple of extra dimmers inside the cabinets (1 set is separated by a large distance).

What do you think?

Since I am frugal I will probably go with photonier.com for my LED strips. The two I would consider are
Nature White (NW) 3700-4300K
Warm White (WW) 2800-3200K

Most people seem to be going with the Nature White. I plan to use Cree CR6's in the ceiling which are 2700K.

I am concerned that the NW UCL LED's will look strange with the WW of the CR6's when they are both on. Is this an unnecessary concern?

Thanks
Rupert

Rupert,

Using Nature white vs warm white is really a personal decision. I don't think it really matters, but there will be others who think otherwise.

cz9h3d,
The look you want to achieve should come first, followed by the practicality of controlling the light. Next, the technical details of how to implement it.

As I mentioned, there is a whole array of options available for LED strip lighting - flexible pcbs to rigid bars, etc. Just pick something that suits your constraints. The price will drop anyway.

Hi,

Would there be anything wrong (from safety or building code perspective) to mount the power supply/transformer under the cabinet next to the LEDs, assuming there are slim power supplies that would not show under the light bar of the cabinets?

I am having my cabinets installed now and did not pre-plan to have LEDs but am leaning towards that now, if feasible. When I gutted my kitchen and re-wired, I put in 3 wall light switches (not dimmers, and I'm not planning on having dimmers for undercab lights) to light up 3 separate under cabinet sections. So, I have 3 line voltage wires coming out of the wall through the bottom/back side of 3 wall-mounted cabinets.

If I go for LED lighting, can the transformer be surface-mounted on the bottom side of the cabinets, as well? Appreciate any inputs.

Thanks!

I would think it should be feasible. Check with your local permit dept.

Having said that, having the transformer surface mounted under the cabinet defeats the slim line led aesthetic.

Why not go with hard wired fixtures then?

davidtay,

Thanks for your input. My wall mounted cabinets have a light bar, which hides 2.75" of space below the bottom of the cabinet. So, the key is finding a transformer that's less than 2.5" tall, so as not to be visible when viewed from a standing position.

Not sure what you mean by "Why not go with hard wired fixtures then?" I do plan to hard wire the transformer to the line voltage wire coming out the bottom/back of my cabinet. That wire is connected to a wall switch. The configuration would be no different from installing a fluorescent or line-voltage xenon under cabinet light, with the exception of the addition of the transformer. Hence, my question as to using the under surface of the cabinet as the physical location for the transformer. Did I miss something or confuse the issue? Or are there leds with built-in transformers as part of a single physical unit?

Thanks again. Much appreciated!

Yes there are LED fixtures that are meant to be directly wired to 120V. These will have all the necessary components nicely packaged into an enclosure that looks similar to UCL fluorescent/ halogen.

I just went through the process of picking my transformer size and looking into the voltage drop. I thought it might be useful to others.

The total wattage for all three cabinet runs is 35W. EnvironmentalLights.com recommends you get a power supply 20-25% over which comes to 42-44W.

I have three runs of cabinets and the wattages are 19.8W, 11.55W and 3.3W. The longest run of wire will go to the 19.8W run and it will be about 20' from the transformer.

To get Amps you divide Watts/Volts which is 20/24. So about 0.84 Amps. Using
http://mypq.epri.com/tools/voltagedrop.asp
and the 18 AWG wire recommended here over the 20' run there would be a 0.3V drop (1.2%)

The only thing I am not clear about is what is acceptable in terms of voltage drop. This page that davidtay supplied a link to
http://www.nooutage.com/vdrop.htm
says "Voltage drop for dc systems should be designed as low as possible or less than 2%"

EnvironmentalLights.com has a table that shows maximum cable lengths from the transformer to the lights for a 40W (1.7A) branch (see below). For 18 gauge wire the max length is 30 feet so I should be fine (especially since my branch is only 20W).

Here is the 18 AWG wire recommended in this thread (all wire should be in-wall (CL2) rated)
http://tinyurl.com/3y8cavk (18AWG - 50' - $35)

Here are some cheaper alternatives from buy.com in both 16 and 18 AWG (if you want longer or shorter lengths just search on their site)
http://tinyurl.com/2b9avbb (18AWG - 100' - $18)
http://tinyurl.com/2w5yufx (16AWG - 100' - $22)

Envlights rep, speaking of dimming, suggested to use inline dimmers (looks like an extention to the light bar) for $18 for undercab, and remote control wall mounted battery powered dimmers for $39 for in-cab. They work with non-dimmable drivers. With 2 undecab and 2 incab zones, i would need a single $77 150W driver. Why on earth would one choose very expensive dimmable drivers (one per zone) and magnetic dimmers? Am I missing something big?
Also, tried to find led-pro's email address on their ebay page to no avail. Is it the right one: sales@photonier.com ? Where is it on their page?
Thanks.

annab6 my plan is to have one dimmable transformer and run three wires from it to the 3 zones. I hope to get a 50 or 60W transformer from
http://www.magnitudeinc.com/LED-DC2.html
which will be $50

Speaking of magnitudeinc has anyone successfully used one of the transformers in the link above?

Are LEDPro and Photonier the same company?

To clarify all my under cabinet lights will be on one dimmer. I don't see a need to have zones I can turn on and off separately.

rupes, yes, that makes a difference. If you needed to dim zones independently, you would need to have a dimmable transformer per zone. I do not really need to dim all 4 zones independetnly. I could combine them on 2 dimmable transformers/dimmers - 2 incab zones and 2 undercab zones. But that would require 2 dimmable transformers vs 1 non-dimmable, although of higer wattage. Envlights' prices for dimmable transformers are very high - 48W is $125. I did not look anywhere else. Envlights Rep offered me the solution with 4 dimmable zones and non-dimmable transformer and with Envlight prices, it looked much more economically attractive to me, even if i have to purchase 2 additional dimmers.

annab6 I do not plan to dim the in cabinet lights I will have in 3 cabinets. They are really just mood lighting and I plan to just get IKEA LED's and put them on a switch.

I would prefer the dimmer to be a regular wall switch rather than something at the cabinet or a remote. Plus as I understand it the dimmers on the DC side to do cut back on energy usage they just dissipate the unused energy as heat.

The Magnitude transformers seem to be a bargain. They do not sell retail so you have to give them a company name - but it seems to just be a formality.

Envlight sells wall mounted remote dimmer/switch...
Info on the energy usage made me start thinking ))). If the switch is on the AC side and the transformer is in the basement, that is like double of wiring to do for my electrician. The total wattage will be around 90W. I may save very little on electricity but pay more to electrician and for parts...

annab6,
Does the power supply really have to be in the basement? It only needs to be in an accessible location. The power supply will need to be rated for damp locations if it is located under the sink or in the crawl space.

You need to approximate the various lengths of wire to the lights.

The inline dimmer from env lights looks interesting. It is certainly convenient for those using a non dimmable power supply.

Rupert,
The voltage drop should be For those who want to make their own led strips, there is talk @ candlepowerforums.com on that topic.

The BOM (bill of materials) cost isn't that high.

David, I do not want to occupy room in the cabinets. Was thinking to place power supply(es) in the basement ceiling (behind a panel) under one of the cabinets. I guess, it is not considered to be damp location (does humidity count?)
Can someone tell if photonier and ledpro is same company? If different, how can I contact ledpro? Thanks.

I think it does. Check with your local inspector.

For those who is interested in inline dimmers from EnvLights. They are not very convenient if you plan to use them often. To dim/brighten, you need to touch and hold. The lights first dim all the way to zero and then start brighten. So, if you want to brighten the lights, you need to first go all the way down. But if you are simply planning to use the dimmer to set the lights at a certain brightness and leave them at that (like, David did), it is a good solution.
I asked EnvLights rep (Jordan - very helpful, no pressure at all) why would he ever suggest to anyone to use dimmable power supplies (vs non-dimmable with DC side dimmers). He said, that DC side dimmers can not be used with a circut over 75W.
Jordan also said that the inline dimmer does get a little warm. You will not save on energy consumption when you dim on DC side but i decided it is not a big deal. If i dim, it is most often going to be closer to the max than the min. With the total of 90W, i might be wasting just 10-15W.

I am losing hope to get in touch with photonier/ledpro. Photonier did not respond to my email in 4 days. Do not know how to contact ledpro (((.

Do not mean to highjack this discussion but thought this info could be useful to others.
After second email, I got a response from Sean from photonier. He did not answer any of my questions. He said they are focusing on distributers since recently and suggested to go to ledpro on ebay to order. This implies that photonier and ledpro is same thing but I now feel reluctant to order from them.

You won't get the same kind of customer service from a manufacturing selling from their plant in Taiwan vs. a retail store like EnvLights. But as "the guy" in my household who will do the wiring/installation, I appreciate the much much better price I can get directly from the manufacturer, and will just troll sights like this to ensure I understand what I'm doing!

So as I'm getting ready to order - has anyone used any of the 24VDC power supplies from Photonier? They range from 15-150W.

One of my runs in my kitchen is all of 9 watts, that will basically be task lighting. I want it dimmable and off a wall switch, so I like the nice price, but wonder if they are AC side dimmable or not.

They do not appear to be dimmable from the AC input side.

I've been trying to place an order with magnitude since last Friday and can't get a call back from sales.

Has anyone else had trouble ordering through them?

I found their transformer elsewhere, but its more than twice the price of dealing direct.

After giving up and purchasing the M40L24DC for $85, shipped through an eBay seller, I received an email from Aion LED saying that Magnitude had referred me to them as they don't sell direct to the public (I had given my company name). Aion LED offered to sell me the unit for $120.

Looks like some of you got lucky and the door may now be closed.

Use coupon code D810M for 10% off your order at superbrightleds.com

Has anyone successfully (no flickering) hooked up LED light bars using a Magnitude transformer? I am having some difficulty with flickering in certain dimming ranges, though I have tried two different dimmers and one is much better than the other, but still flickers in certain ranges. If you have had success, please let everyone know which dimmer(s) you used and what transformer(s) you used.

I sent an email to sales@photonier and received a (prompt) response from the distributor in France that is now handling US sales, so apparently Photonier is no longer dealing directly with US consumers.

The prices and shipping from the distributor are higher than E-bay, but I am concerned that if I order a light bar from E-bay to make sure it is what I want, I will not be able to get the remaining parts later. I guess I'll need to fire off this question through e-bay and check out the "superbrightlights" mentioned in an earlier post. Any other sources?

I received my order from superbrightleds today. The order was accurate and was shipped quickly. I've still got a number of other projects before I can hook them up but I'll be sure to report back here.

BTW - I ordered "warm white".

I ordered the Magnitude Indoor Low Voltage Magnetic Transformer M150-24P, 120V to 24V, 150W with Primary Breaker
from Electric Supplies Online and they sent the TechnoMagnet ODX150p. Will that work with the LBFA LuxBar series LED Linear Light Fixture from Superbrightleds.com

I got an email from Sean indicating that they no longer deal direct to the public and he suggested Environmental Lights. He also said that all the light bars on ebay have been sold and did not indicate that they would be offering more. LED Pro is looking for US distributors and I'm half-tempted. I'm convinced this LED stuff is the future.

In jem199's first post he talks about:

1. It�s a waste to buy the long length 3 prong interconnects. Just cut the interconnect wires and attach to a disconnect.
2. Two adjacent prongs are actually connected to the same DC line. The third is connected to the other DC line.

Can anyone elaborate on this? I have a couple of longish gaps between cabinets (window and range w/microwave). I'm not doing the install but will pass it on the the electrician. If its possible to use cheaper low voltage wire to connect the bars I'd rather do that.

Finally, at the gap where the window is, should I put bars along the sides of the cabinets or is just under the fronts ok? If the cabinets are 12" deep would a 12" bar even fit? It seems it wouldn't.

I am following up on my previous post about the UC light bars (the ones sold by Environmental Lights/SuperbrightLEDs/Photonier) where I was having trouble mating a magnitude transformer with a magnetic low voltage dimmer that would not give me flickering LED's. Good news. I found one that works. I also have the ribbon/tape LED's and the dimmer works with the ribbon/tape LED lights as well (I have two separate Magnitude transformers and two dimmers; one for the UC bars and one for the ribbon/tape light). Pass & Seymour brand (made by Legrand) model number LSLV603PWV works with no flickering. About $25 at Lowes. The Leviton did not work well at all and the Lutron worked except for a relatively small dimmable range where I would get flickering. I hope this information helps anyone looking to use a Magnitude transformer.

Mikef1,

Superbrightled.com is another source for the LED light bars that you can find at Environmental Lights. The light bars are less expenseive at Superbrightled.com. Environmental lights, however, has a wider selection of accessories and they know what they are talking about when they say they have tested their transformer (also expensive) that they sell with the recommended dimmer so that the whole set up works well. Superbrightleds does not have the same dimmable transformer selection/wall mounted dimmer options. I personally decided to purchase from Superbrightleds and then obtain transformers and dimmers on my own after reading this forum and trying to save money. That ended up being quite the process because I eventually learned that due to the technology of the LED's, the light bar, transformer and dimmer are not going to necessarily work together if you piecemeal them from different sources. I eventually got it to work (see my earlier post today).

Jem199's post questions:
1 & 2. I agree with the poster that you can cut and splice. I purchased a right angle three prong power supply cable that had a female jack on the end. I needed to wire it into my low voltage wiring already running in my walls. I simply cut off the female end, stripped the wiring back and wire nutted the wires together. Works fine. However, just know you will need to "hide" the wire nuts. I think your second question has to do with the three wires that you will find on the 3 pronged connection. When you cut this connection, you should find three wires. Red, White and Black. I used the diagram posted by DavidTay on Oct. 12, above. Red and white wires of cut three prong wire nutted to red low voltage wire and black to black. Works fine.

Your last question about bars on the sides. I would not place bars on the sides, just the front. The reason you want UC lighting (other than for accent) is because your upper cabinets cast a shadow over your counter tops from recessed/ceiling light. Presumably you do not have cabinets over your window that block light coming from the ceiling. Besides, you would not pick up that much extra light and I think it might not look right.

I have learned so much between this forum and the kitchen forum that I wanted to take some time to share my experience with those, like me a few months ago, were looking for advice on what to purchase, how to install, etc.
I hope this helps you and everyone else reading this post. Thanks also to DavidTay and the other posters who have given great information that helped me on my way.

Has anyone successfully (no flickering) hooked up LED light bars using a Magnitude transformer? I am having some difficulty with flickering in certain dimming ranges, though I have tried two different dimmers and one is much better than the other, but still flickers in certain ranges. If you have had success, please let everyone know which dimmer(s) you used and what transformer(s) you used.

I used the Magnitude M40L24DC transformer driving the 24 watt superbrightleds.

The Lutron Diva dimmer DVCL-153P works perfectly with no humming, flickering or other issues. There is a little wheel that you use to adjust the range of the dimmer when first installed. You're supposed to adjust it to just above the point where there is no flickering but this wasn't an issue with my set up. I was able to turn it all the way down so the lights just barely glow at the lowest setting.

seekerinfo -
Hopefully you'll check back at this thread :)
I am planning on ordering LED bars thru suprebrightleds.com as well as the power supply and dimmer. I want to order some of the accessories thru environmental. You said that you had problems with this. was that because you ordered the power supply/dimmer from different sources? The only thing I really need from environmental is the 4" jumpers. For some reason, superbrightleds's shortest jumpers are almost 10" !

I am assuming the 3-prong connectors can be used with the light bars from either website? because the look exactly the same.

thanks!

The 3 prong jumper connectors are straight connectors.
4" connectors are quite short and the bars need to be in very close proximity - ~ 2" apart.

Some folks had some issues with env lights when the rep found out that they had obtained the led bars elsewhere.

This might have changed since then.

Thanks David,

In trying to figure out what to but and where to buy it I really have no idea. There are so many variables to juggle...

I contacted Sean Chiu at Phontonier and he sent me a price list (very promptly I might add).

The lights they offer seem equivalent to the "Premium" lights (3.3W/ft, 220 lm/ft) at Environmental and also the lights solds by Superbrightleds.

On the Photonier spec sheet they list 5W/ft 220 lm/ft models but Sean says they do not sell those to end consumers. Those seem to be equivalent to the "High Brightness Premium" at Environmental.

The specs are confusing because I have seen the lm/ft range from 166 to 220 for the WW color (Photonier specs list both numbers) also I have seen the CRI listed from 65 to 80. But I think the 3.3W/ft LEDS have a 65-70 CRI and 5W/ft ones are 80 CRI.

Prices for the 3.3 W/ft lights seem to be:

• Photonier: cheapest approx: $18/ft

• Superbrightleds: approx $20/ft

• Environmental: approx $30+/ft(and a huge premium on the 6"), they have volume discounts that start at 5 pieces but that only takes about 10% off)

For the "High Brightness Premium" line at Environmental you pay an additional 20% premium.

I'd really like the 80 CRI and the higher brightness, but the cost is practically double.

And of course the final question is transformers:

Once upon a time way back in the summer members of this forum were buying transformers from Magnitude for approx $50. Magnitude no longer will sell to end customers. Environmental's transformers are quite expensive ($125 - $170) and Electric Supplies Online sells a 150W transformer for $60, but 150W seems like overkill and there is a little voice in my head that has some idea that transformers work best when they are loaded at something like 60-80%.

Too many choices... too many decisions...

There is someone selling 50W Magnitude transformers on e-bay.
http://compare.ebay.com/like/190430074687?ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&rvr_id=206315062082&crlp=1_263602_304662&UA=%3F*I8&GUID=e06f8f4a12b0a0b3f8f50ee5ff728a81&itemid=190430074687&ff4=263602_304662

sandn -
I purchased the 150W from environmental for around $76 ??
yeah it might be overkill, but I was too close for the 60W as I had 11 feet of lights on one line, and 30" on another. I was afraid of the lights flickering/dimming or whatever. I think the 150W was like $26 more, so thought it was worth it. The dimmers I bought were in-line at $18/each.

I'm hoping someone can help me... I had an electrician run low voltage wiring in the walls for new under-cab lighting, and purchased the following from environmental lights a few months ago: 48w dimmable power supply, the recommended leviton dimmer, and all of the light bars (as well as a three-prong interconnect that I need in one area to connect two bars). The electrician is no longer in the picture and I am trying to figure out what I need to complete the project. Where I am having trouble is the 'interface' from the light bars to the low-voltage wiring, and from the low-voltage wiring to the transformer.

I know that I need the three-pronged power cords to connect the light bars to the low-voltage wire... Then I can either cut off the male connector end and use wire nuts to connect to the low-voltage wiring, or use the Ideal brand disconnects...? Does the male connector fit into the Ideal disconnect, and if so, how does the in-wall low voltage wiring connect to the disconnect. (Please forgive me, I don't have any of the disconnects and it's hard for me to tell from the pictures online...)

Where I am really confused is how the transformer connects to the in-wall low voltage wiring...and what parts I need for that. The electrician ran three SEPARATE lines of the low voltage wiring to the three different areas that will get the under-cab lights, I assume intending that all three lines will connect to the transformer. Is this wrong? Can I make it work?

I'm sorry if I sound like I don't have a clue, but if I can just get everything that I need for this project, I am confident it is something my father-in-law and I can do, as the relationship with the electrician has gone sour...

Any guidance is greatly appreciated.

You need to cut the interconnect. E-mail me if you have more questions.

I wondering if anyone has used anything from ecolights like their super nova module http://www.ecolightled.com/product/led_module_super-nova-2-warm-white/led_backlight_modules_warm_white

They indicate that they can be used in a kitchen situation and they seem like a cheaper way to go since the 4.16 ft length is $38.50. Any info? Thanks

I hope David is still active on this forum.

I'm remodeling after a flood and am on a tight budget. I had UCL that was fluorescent. I've read through all the threads but am a bit confused. To switch to LED, it seems that I need to have low voltage wire be run through the walls? Right now I'm down to studs so I have flexibility to do whatever.

Also, Ledpro/ Protonier does not show up on Ebay anymore. Does anyone have an alternative to Environmental Lights for the parts at a less expensive price?

you could try superbrightleds.com