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LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Posted by davidtay (My Page) on
Mon, Jan 30, 12 at 1:27

A collection of tips/ answers
Since kitchens have higher lighting requirements, I like to use 35 lumen per sq ft as a rule to compute the number of lights. If there are additional sources of light that will be used, the output (lumens not watts) from those sources can be deducted from the total.

Placement/ layout
1. Cans should be > 24 to 30 inches from the wall (on center). Most countertop spaces have upper cabinets (typically ~ 12" deep) + crown molding. The edge of the can may be spaced ~ 12" away from the edge of the crown molding (if present or cabinet if there is no crown molding) making the average distance between 26 to 30 inches.

2. Assuming the need for a fairly uniformly lit space @ 35 lumens per sq ft, the cans may have to be spaced closer together - between 3 - 4 ft apart (if all general lighting is provided by recessed lights). A fairly regular pattern is preferable to a random layout.

3. The actual layout of cans will be impacted by the location of ceiling joists, HVAC ducting, electrical wiring, plumbing, ceiling height, fire suppression sprinklers and other obstructions above the ceiling.

Dimming
The Cree LR6 series lamps do not dim as well as the later models (CR6, ...). ELV dimmers probably work better with LR6 than incandescent dimmers since the total load of the lights may not meet the minimum load requirement for the incandescent dimmer.

Dimmers such as the Lutron Diva CL dimmers work well. The max output is 95%.

Some Choices (in order of preference) and notes
Cree CR6 or ECO-575 (Home Depot branded CR6)
ECO4-575 (Home Depot branded Cree CR4 4" recessed light)
The above are only available in 2700k light color.

Cree LR6 series - including the LE6.

The Cree CR6 and LR6 lamps will not fit into 5" housings.

The standard LR6 behaves more like a surface mount than a recessed light as the LED emitters are close to the surface and the recess is shallow. Some may not like the amount of light spillage (standard LR6).

There is a higher output version of the LR6 that has a much deeper recess.

To prevent the Cree lamps from falling out, the 3 prongs have to be fully extended and a slight clockwise twist made when push installing. The slight clockwise twist will ensure that the prongs are fully extended.

The Cree lamps are currently the best available today (2012).

Sylvania RT-6, RT-4. The lights could be easier to install than Cree lamps as they utilize the torsion spring mechanism. However, the lights do not look as pleasant as the Cree lamps.

The Cree and Sylvania lamps do outperform 26W CFLs (and incandescents) in a standard recessed can in terms of light spread and output as the standard bulb in a can solution traps a significant amount of light. The Cree and Sylvania recessed lamp solutions referenced above have all the LED elements facing outwards so that the effective light output is higher.

The CRI (Color Rendition Index) of Cree and Sylvania recessed lamps > 80.

There is no warm up time required for Cree recessed lamps, unlike CFL light bulbs.

Most recessed lighting is used with flat ceilings. Sloped ceilings would require special solutions such as the LE6 or some other form of lighting (i.e. -non recessed lighting).

Some common objections to recessed can lights stem from
1. looks and performance of traditional can lights (standard bulb in a can)
2. swiss cheese effect from too many holes.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

David

You have answered these questions so often that the summary guide is very helpful. Some additional situations come readily to mind (my own for example) ...

Most of us will use under cab lighting for countertop tasks. Given a 50 inch aisle between countertops and island, should the can lights be centred on the aisle for general lighting rather than over the edge of the countertop?

For those undercab lights, what are the "rules" for spacing the "pucks" ... and any special notes for LED strips.

For island pendants, what is the favoured solution ... is a LED light recommended? and if so which one?


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

For your situation, it would probably look more symmetrical if the lights are centered on the aisle and there are no other sources of light for general lighting.

On the other hand, a counter argument can be made that as there probably will be pendants over the island, the cans should be placed around the edge of the countertop.

There is a LED Continuation thread that covers strip lighting. Puck spacing really depends on the output of each puck and the length of cord between. Installing puck lighting could be more work than the equivalent strip light since each would have to be individually fastened and aligned along with the cord between.

Island pendants can take many shapes from a suspended tube light to individual lamps (40W / 60W/ ...).

LED bulb tips
1. Always look for the output in lumens. Never rely on vague claims of "output like X watts" which is an old trick.
2. If the output per watt is ~ 20+ per watt, that is no better than using a halogen. The L-prize bulb from Philips produces > 90 lumens per watt.
3. The CRI should be 80 or better.

Here is a link that might be useful: LED UCL continuation


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Thanks for the suggestions - I will look at our plans and adjust accordingly.
I plan to use cans over the countertops - Just to clarify and understand - are you recommending the cans over the countertop or partially over countertop and edge of counter?

Is is better to have a decorative light in the center of the kitchen or use cans throughout. We have 7 feet between counters

Thanks!


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Nearest fit. It probably would end up slightly over the edge if cr6 type lights are used, accounting for the spacing between the recessed cans and the upper cabinets and crown molding.

If you have an eye on a decorative fixture, by all means see if it will fit in with the style of the room/ kitchen.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Thank you for posting such a helpful post and for the one on UCL.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

You're welcomed.

Some additional notes.
1. It will be easier to plan the pattern of light cans if the ceiling is not yet installed.
2. Retrofit cans rely on the ceiling board for support unlike the new construction cans.
3. Do check on the local energy code requirements. If you are subject to energy efficiency laws such as Title 24, the choice of bulb/ lamp and housings will be affected. For example, Title 24 requires that the housing is airtite and rated for insulation contact.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

davidtay and others
I just came back from the local lighting store. This is a high end lighting store and not a "box" store.

They showed me some new bulbs that just came in recently.
Both are GE and use a standard socket (A style)
Have you tried these?

GE energy smart LED 2700K BR 30L 750 lumens - this one looks just like a standard bulb for a can

GE energy smart LED 2700K PAR 30L 740 lumens - this one has little dots that you can see if you look up.
Both can be dimmed (but I think you need to use a low watt dimmer)

The store loaned me the bulbs to try tonight. Right now I have the PAR 30 installed. My husband says looks OK as long as you don't look up.

I am going to switch to the regular bulb now.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

No, I've not used them. However, they don't appear to be price competitive with the Cree CR6.
The BR30 is ~$66.

By low watt dimmer do you mean electronic low voltage (ELV) dimmer?

If you're subject to title 24, the requirement is that a high efficiency recessed can needs a non edison base connector (e.g.- GU24 connector instead of a E26)

Here is a link that might be useful: GE lighting


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Yup - obviously my dad's electrical knowledge did not infuse to his daughter....
I will have to check on the codes. Our town is pretty darn strict on the codes.
I like the idea of a screw bulb - it allows much more flexibility for the future.
We had both bulbs in one fixture and my DH verdict....
He likes the 740 lumen version. He said a bit harsh but much better lighting.
The 750 lumen was "wimpy". Interesting....


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

If you're trying out things, why not give the CR6 a spin as well? They also come with the E26 base (screw in).

The rationale behind the no edison (E26 screw in) base is to prevent people from fitting low efficiency lighting into the socket.

Other things to look at (for lamp/ bulb performance)
1. The startup time - some LEDs do not come on instantaneously
2. Dimming range.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

> The CRI (Color Rendition Index) of Cree and Sylvania recessed lamps > 80.

The Cree lamps are actually 90 or higher, which is one of their advantages over most other brands which are usually 80 to 85. Their separate floodlamp bulbs (without integral trim kits) are even better, up to 94 CRI.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I will look at the CR6 and give them a spin.
Thanks


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install video for Cree lights

The method of installation is almost identical for all the CREE recessed lamps (LR6 series, CR6, CR4, ECO4-575, ECO-575).

The only difference is that some will have an attached pigtail (CR4/ ECO4-575, LR6 with GU24 whip adapter)

Here is a link that might be useful: CR6 install


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Installation steps

CREE
CR6/ LR6/ LE6 Edison base
For a standard edison base (E26) can, there is an adjustable plate to which the E26 socket is attached. This plate is there to allow the use of various bulbs - short /long neck bulbs

The socket needs to be removed from the plate and left dangling.
1. Unscrew the bulb.
2. Remove the existing trim piece.
3. Loosen the adjustable plate so that you can take it out.
4. Detach the edison base from the plate.
5. Screw in the CR6/ LR6.
6. Fully extend the 3 metal tabs.
7. Push in the lamp and give it a slight clockwise twist at the end.

For LR6 lamps with the GU24 whip connector, follow the instructions that came with the whip connector.
Summary below
1. Snip off the 2 wires to whatever connector (e.g. - E26) is in the can.
2. Attach each of the wires in the whip connector to the corresponding wire.
The result is that you will have a GU24 connector dangling around in the can.
If you're not comfortable modifying the can, get an electrician (preferably one who has done the procedure).

For the CR4,
1. Unscrew the bulb.
2. Remove the existing trim. If your can is similar to the HI99CAT, there will not be an adjustable plate. This is most likely the case.
3. Make sure the 3 tabs are fully extended.
4. Screw in the E26 end of the pigtail.
5. Push the lamp into the existing can and give it a slight clockwise twist at the end.

Sylvania RT6 (Edison base)
Follow steps 1 through 5 as for the Cree LR6/ CR6.
Hook in the torsion springs as described in the accompanying installation instructions
RT4 (Edison base)
Follow steps 1 through 4 as for the Cree CR4. Final step is identical to that for the RT6.


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Interesting thermographic pics

CR6 after > 1 hr of use.
CR6 6

LR6 after > 1hr of use
LR6-1

E26 base CFL in can after warmup period. This pict provides a reason why screw in CFLs do not last very long in recessed cans.
CFL-1


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Is it possible to modify the sylvania rt6 to use GU-24 connector? We live in California... If not, what are other options besides those mentioned above that are ok for title 24?


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Yes.
There is a RT6 GU24 adapter that you can purchase, for example
http://store.earthled.com/products/sylvania-rt6-led-recessed-kit-gu24-adaptor


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

David,

Thank you for all the excellent information! We live in California and are building a home, thus we need new construction housings & approximately 60 lights. I like everything you've said about the ECO4-575, but Home Depot doesn't sell a kit or an accompanying housing. What do you recommend?


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

David,

I should clarify. We desperately need help finding recessed LED 4" lights for new construction, Title 24 compliant (we live in CA), and 2700K. Right now, it seems that we can get a kit for 6" LED's with 3000k lights for $60, but the 2700K light kits are $180. As we need approximately 60 lights, you can see how this becomes an issue. We've looked into buying the components separately, and for a trial run we have ordered a ECO4-575 ($39), and an Elite 4" IC New Construction Airtight Dedicated LED Can ($15).

I've read online that each manufacture has different connections, so our soft white ECO4-575's won't work with the Elite cans. I checked Home Depot & they are pretty much useless with regards to both products & information. I looked online & found the "Cree H4 - 4" Recessed Housing with GU24 Socket", but it requires specific downlights & trims, and the price totals $140.

We have 8' ceilings, except in the kitchen where they're 7.5'. My husband & I are both 6'+, and having a large can that close to eye level looks horrible, I don't want anything larger than a 4" can.

I welcome any suggestions on how we can light our home for less than $100/light.

Thanks in advance for your help.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

For 4" CREE CR4 (ECO4-575), they are currently only available with the E26 base. I was told ~ 1 month ago that the GU24 base version would be available soon.

To be totally compliant with Title 24, you would need to get the CR4 with the GU24 base.

The Elite cans could be usable with an adapter which replaces the connector end. Just check the internal dimensions of the can.

Alternatives - Sylvania RT4 with GU24 base.

It would probably be better to get non E26 base recessed cans first and then get the CR4 with the GU24 base (the LR6 did come with the GU24 whip adapters)


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Yep, Home Depot recently started selling the EcoSmart w/ GU24 base online only (Model # ECO4-575L-GU24). We ordered one of those & the Cree H4 - 4" Recessed Housing with GU24 Socket from Polar-Ray. I'm hoping that since they're both Cree & 4", we might have a chance. If that doesn't work, we'll try to hardwire something.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

NoraLighting has recessed cans with the GU24 socket which might be cheaper than the CREE H4 housing
http://noralighting.com/Product.aspx?&pid=9076


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I got the Nora 4" GU24 can and an ECO4-575-GU24. This can has the socket attached in a fixed location, top of can.

The LED has a twisted wire with the GU24 on the end. I could barely get it connected (wife's smaller hands help). If they made the wire 1" longer it would be easy, if it were 1/2" shorter it would be impossible.

The ECO4 comes with a GU24 socket and connectors so that one can permanently convert an Edison can. They make the wires rather short. I picked up an Elco 4" Edison can with adjustable position. The eBay GU24 snap-in socket replaced the Edison with ease, so that is another way to go. Elco also makes the 4" GU24 version EL99ICA-G24 with adjustable position, so that should also work okay.

Am I going to run into any inspector issues (San Jose, CA) putting Cree or Sylvania LED trims in various cans? Do the cans or LEDs have to be rated to work together?

Gary


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

The Cree and Sylvania led trims are intended to fit into both new construction/ retrofit and existing cans.

The inspector is supposed to make sure that the cans (and the installation) comply strictly with title 24.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Anyone try LED light bulbs from Costco? it says its made by CREE and prices were decent.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

There are many bulbs which utilize Cree components but not the Cree patents such as TrueWhite or Remote Phosphor patents.
Brief description
TrueWhite - Utilization of a mix of different color LEDs to better approximate white light
Remote Phosphor - Utilization of a phosphor layer away from the LED elements to enhance output, reduce color shift.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

> The Cree and Sylvania led trims are intended to fit into
> both new construction/ retrofit and existing cans.

> The inspector is supposed to make sure that the cans
>(and the installation) comply strictly with title 24.

And there is the rub. Something that I had missed in my earlier reading is that

"A luminaire with a factory installed GU-24 lamp holder may be classified as high efficacy provided that it meets all of the following requirements:
1. The luminaire is not a recessed downlight rated to be used with a compact fluorescent lamp; and ..."

The cheaper Nora and Elco GU-24 cans are rated for self-ballasted CFLs, which makes those cans fail Title 24. So this means that, to pass Title 24 with new recessed kitchen fixtures, you can ONLY use an LED-only can with GU24, or a CFL can with ballast in the can (NOT GU24). Already spending extra just not to have a screw-in socket, now seems that I have to spend even more if I want LED.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I thought I posted a correction last night, but don't see it:

There is further language in the 2008 Title 24 that allows LED trims, that have been approved by the State of CA for efficacy, to be installed in GU24 cans which are listed for CFLs, despite the above paragraphs. So all is good, except that everything costs more (can, LED) for GU24.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Not an expert on T24, but I would have assumed GU24 cans would qualify since the only light bulbs that fit them are LED or CFL, both which are high-efficiency.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

>Not an expert on T24, but I would have assumed GU24 cans
>would qualify since the only light bulbs that fit them are
>LED or CFL, both which are high-efficiency.

As the quoted language 3 posts up said, GU24 recessed cans rated for CFL are specifically not allowed for Title 24 compliance. Apparently you can get by that only by installing an approved LED trim in that can. Approval for LED would require at least 40 lumens/watt under 15W, at least 50 lumens/watt 15-40 watts, and at least 60 lumens/watt for LEDs over 40 watts.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Looking at an approved LED list, I see that CREE has some 800+ lumen CR6's that have been approved a couple of months ago. Efficacy over 70 lumens/watt. They are also already on the California Title 24 list. I don't see them available for sale yet. This might sway me to stay with 6" cans instead of 4". I need to start installing cans this week, but could wait 2-3 months to by the LED trims.

Here is a link that might be useful: List of high efficacy LEDs


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I noticed that on the last CR6 I bought a month or two ago (and current ones at Home Depot) the box says it is now rated to draw 9.5 watts, whereas the previous ones were rated to draw 10.5 watts. Dividing by the 575 lumen output, would give 60.5 lumens/watt vs 54.7 watts.

One might think this indicates an improvement. But I took down an old CR-6 that I bought nearly a year ago. Both new and old measured 9.5 watts on my Kill-A-Watt meter.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

The Energy Star site always rated the CR6 at 9.1 to 9.5 watts; Cree just rated it conservatively. The lamp hasn't changed, only the packaging (I think). Also, it used to specify 92 CRI, now only 90.

Wow, those new Cree/Ecosmart CR6's (ECO-800L) look great - rated at 800 lumens but measured at 877.3, also 93 CRI, 2700K. Hopefully these will show up at HD soon, and not be too expensive. The spreadsheet shows Edison-base versions too as well as GU24.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I'm having trouble finding these new 800 lumen CR6 bulbs on the Cree website. I see the 575 lumens one. Can someone please post a link, please? I would appreciate it. Thank you.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Davidtay ...

"Most recessed lighting is used with flat ceilings. Sloped ceilings would require special solutions such as the LE6 or some other form of lighting (i.e. -non recessed lighting)."

I have a sloped ceiling in my living room and had hoped to use 4". Is there a 4" option that you can recommend for sloped ceilings?

How bad would it be to install the ECO4-575's?

Thank you!


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Sorry for the somewhat late response as I've been off.

If you need the lights pointing directly down, the ECO4-575 will not fit the bill. Your best option would be to use standard sloped ceiling trim with a bulb.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I checked with the distributor, and the CREE CR6 800 lumen version, announced 3 weeks ago, is projected to be available in late July or early August.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Attofarad, thank you for the information. I kept looking and looking at the Cree website wondering why I didn't see it there, and now I know why. Thanks again.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Polie, I don't see the "CR4" (Eco4-575) on the CREE site either, so it isn't exactly current.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

David Tay's general advise has been extremely helpful to planning my recessed lights. However his first rule of thumb about distance from the the wall assumes you have upper cabinets. I do not have upper cabinets. My counters are 27" deep. Should I place my recessed lights 13.5" from the wall so as to light the center of the task area? I am worried if I place them off the edge of the counter at 27" or 26", I will cast a shadow over the counter when I lean forward.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Hi All, I am going with the ECO4-575L or ECO4-575L-GU24 ... Can anyone tell me what housing will work with these? My contractor purchased the Elite remodel non-IC housing (I think LD4R-AT-W) prior to me choosing the ECO4-575. The housing has an orange connector (sorry I don't know what this is) but the ECO4-575 does not, so I don't know if these will work together.

Can anyone advise me what housing should be used?

Thank you!!!!


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Mikevbf,
You could try putting the cans 1' from the wall if there is sufficient clearance above. For example, if the wall is the outside wall of a 1 story dwelling with a steeply pitched roof, there just might be enough space for a 6" can.

Otherwise, you might have to consider using other lighting forms such as pendants.

BlackChamois,
It looks like your contractor might have purchased some 4" Halo LED cans.
You could use the GU24 pigtails (with the cans purchased by your contractor) or the Nora lighting cans discussed above.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

BlackChamois,

Elco also makes GU24 and Edison base cans, which fit just fine. Unlike the Nora GU24 can, which has the GU24 socket attached to the top of the can, these have a bit of wire length on the socket. This makes it a bit easier to install the ECO4-575-GU24.

Personally, I would stick with screw-in cans, unless you are constrained by local regulations (e.g. Title 24 in California). The cans are cheaper, and pretty much every LED maker has a version that will screw in -- often cheaper than the GU24 version.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

DavidTay,
I do not quite get your response. I will give you a little more details in hopes that your next response will make more sense to me. The Kitchen is in a 200 year plus old house with flat ceilings about 93" high. The counter is a standard 36" high. In front of the counters are windows instead of cabinets.

I do not love recessed lights in an old house, but am making an exception in this case for the practical purpose of task lighting in a space with low ceilings. The 6" cans were just too big for me. So I went with your 4" suggestion which BTW I got for $30 a pop from Home Depot.

Since I am NOT trying to clear an upper cabinet and do not have the advantage of under cabinet lights to fill any shadows in, should I set the cans 1', 13.5", 20", 26", or 27" from the wall? Remember my counter depth is 27". Right now I am inclined to split the difference and set the cans 20" from the wall.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

It would be better if the light were in front - ie approx 1' from the wall.

However, the final placement from the wall will be dictated by whatever is above the ceiling. You will need to check the clearances in the space above the ceiling. In some cases- single storey dwellings, due to obstructions and the slope of the roof, any recessed can lights have to be placed further away- 3' from the wall for larger cans due to the lack of space. A 4" can may be able to fit closer, but you should check.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

The ceiling is down and the joists run such that I can set the cans any distance from the wall. So I will set them 1' from the wall which biases them slightly closer to the window than the edge of the counter since the counter depth is 27". I do not know why 1' is better than 13.5" or 20" from the wall, but I will depend on your judgement and experience. We will probably set them today. Thank you.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

1' is very similar to 13.5". Both are better than 20" since the light is in front of the person standing at the counter top and would illuminate better.

Personally, I find measuring off foot increments is easier than inches and fractions.


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csl brand led recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

reading this great discussion.

Has anyone used CSL brand recessed LEDs?

I understand they put out 800-1000 lumens per unit. they are pricey. I'm looking at $270 per unit including trim. I may be able to get them from an electrical distributor with lower overhead for less.

lightolier also has ability to use led lamps in their recess. and led recessed is also an option with progress lighting

any experience with any of these would be appreciated. thanks


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

If your lighting scheme calls for small apertures (< 4"), CSL may be appropriate. They are targeting the MR16 style segment which has a fairly weak representation by LED lighting vendors.

There are cheaper low voltage alternatives.

LED lighting lamps like the RT6, CR6, RT4, CR4 will work in most recessed can housings.

Cree needs either a 6" (CR6 or LR6) or 4" (ECO4-575/ CR4) can.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I see that the CR6-800 lumen products have made their to vendors, at least as a "coming soon" item. Should really be available by the time I have to decide on my island lighting (6 cans, but the CR6-525L seems maybe just a touch under the light level I like for detailed work).

Here is a link that might be useful: CR6 800 lumens


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

The 12w, 800-lumen CR6 is now on the Cree website (called the CR6-800L, or CR6-800L-GU24 for the GU24 version). Elsewhere in the world they already have a 1000-lumen CR6, albeit in 3000k and 4000K versions only, neither which is sold in the US. They run on 240v, but can handle 60Hz as well as 50Hz so I assume they would work here.

Also now on the Cree website is te the CR4, also in Edison-base or GU24 versions. The surprise here is that they can be ordered with specular reflectors rather than just white ones (add a -D to the end of the model number). The CR6 is sold only in white, although four different colored snap-in trimpieces are available.

Don't know if Home Depot will offer a discounted Ecosmart-branded version of the CR6-800L yet. As before, the Cree-branded lights have a longer warranty, and Cree also notes that they include commercial as well as residential Energy Star certification.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Hope I am not to late to jump on this discussion..
Any suggestions/ recommendations for an economical non-IC housing to fit 4" CREE CR4"s (ECO4-575)..preferably without modifications. My contractor is removing the kitchen ceiling, so it will be equivalent to a new build.

Also, I see on the Cree website that they recommend an ELV dimmer if you are putting multiple dimmer circuits on the same breaker. My plan calls for 11 CR4's and I don't see an ELV dimmer listed in their recommendations that will handle more than 10 lights. I would love to get them on the same dimmer.. or is that a bad idea?

All thoughts/ suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks!


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I haven't done my installation yet (several zones, same breaker), but I suggest using one of the CL dimmers. Here is the Lutron recommendation:

Here is a link that might be useful: Lutron dimmers for CR4


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

That is feasible since the LED lights have a much lower power draw than incandescents.

I second attofarad's suggestion.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Regarding the HD Ecosmart version of the CR6 800L, I see that a VP of Cree says that it will not be offered, just the CR6 version through distributors. The Ecosmart version is listed on the Energy Star and another approval list, but that doesn't mean Cree will actually market them that way. The only two places I see it so far are about the same price ($55 and $56), with one having free shipping.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

This forum has been a big help. I am interested in using LED lighting in my kitchen. I have looked at both the 6" and and Eco 4" Cree led's at my local Home depot. My question is regarding the difference between these Cree led's with the attached trim ring and just regular LED bulbs. Does the trim ring and all have to be replaced when the bulb finally goes? I see at my local costco, they have led bulbs pretty resonably priced. I understand that i would still have to purchase the trim ring, but i think i may still be able to go that route cheaper than using the 6" or 4" Cree. Are there advantages to the Cree that other LED's do not provide? Any info would br greatly appreciated! Thanks!


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Yes, the trim piece is typically replaced, though they can be detached.

The advantages are
1. The output is all directed outwards unlike a normal bulb configuration which results in quite a bit of light being trapped within the can.
2. The module is designed and tested for use in a recessed can and would have a much longer lifespan than a bulb put in a recessed can.
3. The typical price range for a new trim piece is ~ $10 - < $30 which in some cases negates any possible savings when buying the parts separately.
4. It is easier to replace the entire unit.


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Davidtay & others - RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Davidtay, thank you again for all your help! I put the 900 Lumen's Reveal Halogen bulbs in my kitchen. Although I love the light, they get hot. Now I am ready to do the home office room which is the living room. I have a separate family room open to the kitchen.

My room is about 12 X 15 and I am using 4 touchier rooms to light up the room using 4 fluorescent bulbs. The ceiling gets lit up in spots and other spots are dark. I can't stand sitting in a dark room with two desk lights on my work space since I can't see. I am thinking that I need to keep the room looking like a living room and a fixture over my desk would not be centered in the room so I have finally decided to install LED recessed cans. Do you think 6 would be enough? I wish they had out the 1,000 watt version bulbs in the USA.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

LR6C-DR1000 LED Bulbs with trim providing 1,000 Lumens. I wonder if this would be a good bulb for my office & if an electrician can install this for me? Would 6 be enough? I have 6 at 900 lumens in my kitchen and I find the room not bright enough for my eyes and I guess that is why others have under cabinet lighting.

Here is a link that might be useful: LR6C-DR1000 LED Bulbs with trim providing 1,000 Lumens


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Cree LR6-DR1000-277V 6" LED Recessed Downlight 277V Incandescent Color (2700K) IC.

I prefer around 3,000K as to me 2700K is too yellow but I am sure I would like either the 2,700K or the 3,500K. Would one of these be good that I posted for my lighting in my home office?

I really dislike the hot halogens I chose for the kitchen after all as it gets the room too hot in the summer time but I am sure I will not mind in the winter time.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cree LR6-DR1000-277V 6


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

You should be able to install it yourself.

The Reveal bulbs will not provide 900 lumens to the room each when put inside a can since a portion of the light will not escape from the can.

The 3500k color is more conducive for work.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

davidtay,

I can install the bulbs myself in the kitchen but in my home office where I want the 3500K 1,000 Lumens LED bulbs has no cans and no light at all in the ceiling. There is a bedroom above this room and not an attic. The ceiling has Styrofoam popcorn on it. The lights near it is in the foyer and the dining room as the living room is only separated by a half a wall from the dining room that I am using as a office also with tall file cabinets there and a desk hidden by the cabinets for when I have a part-time employee here. I live alone so the kitchen table in the kitchen is enough for me and the kitchen is open to the family room. Hence, when clients walk into my home they only see my two room office that badly needs better lighting. I wish I could make holes in the ceiling myself and install the cans but I don't know much about electrical wiring but I do know that there is nothing there now at all to work off of except for the nearby rooms.

I agree that I feel the 3500K is better for working now that I put 3500K bulbs in the dining room fixture (had almost 300 watts of light using only 69 watts of power as I used CFL's there). The light is a nice white light but it is not lighting up the desk there either as the fixture is in the middle of the room but I may leave that room alone as I don't work in there.

I was wondering why my 900 lumen lightbulbs I bought for the bathroom were so much brighter than the reveal bulbs for the cans. So I will not get the lumen's stated on the bulb.

Since the LED bulbs are part of the trim, will I get 1,000 watts from that? I have to check the type of screw in bulbs part to be sure it is compatible with whatever is installed.


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davidtay- RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I noticed that the base is a GU24 on this bulb I love but the base in my kitchen looks like an edison type of bulb as it screws in. HOw do I convert a screw in type of bulb to a GU24 type?


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

For those of you that have title 24 issues, I saw an LED light unit at Home Depot last night the can be either retrofit into a 5 or 6" can, or surface mounted into a standard j-box using a provided strap. It has a trim ring that is flush with the ceiling and the light portion is a shallow dome that protrudes a bit below the ceiling plane. They are 750 lumen units and cost $30 each. I assume that the j-box route would avoid the title 24 can issues.


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Marrkk - RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Thank you Marrkk for sharing. I will look into this bulb and see if the Home Depot in Northern NJ has this type of bulb as that is a great price.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I'll get the manufacturer, their part number and the HD stock number and post it ASAP


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

There are GU 24 and E26 versions of the Cree CR series lamps. However, they may not be the best solution if you don't already have recessed cans.

There is the Lighting Science Glimpse which is probably the LED light unit Marrkk is referring to. Such lamps would be easier to install over a standard J box rather than making a recessed lamp fitting.

The main draw back is that the box is most likely in the center of the room which isn't the typical location for a desk.

An alternative would be to deploy floor standing CFL torchieres.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Hi Davidtay, Thank you for posting. I have currently 4 CFL torchiere lamps that are better than nothing as they provide some light but since I turned 50 this year, I seem to need more light and it bothers me that my desk is not lit up. The two desk lamps are making my feel like I am sitting in a room with so many dark patches. It is uncomfortable. I am waiting for the electrician to get back to me for a quote and if he can go through the garage or if he can even do the recessed in my ceiling. I told him if he has to make a mess, I still have the mess in my kitchen to patch up so the painter will do both. This electrician feels I should save money and use CFL's in my recessed lighting until the LED prices go down. He will price the quote with CFL's and if I want to utilize his services and I truly want LED's, he will quote that also or allow me to buy my own lights.

Also you are right that my desk is near the front of the room with clients sitting in front and my lower file cabinets in back of me and on the sides in back of me to hold the two printers and the copiers. A centered light would not be over my desk.


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Davidtay- RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Davidtay, from reading the above posts again, it looks like I am right that the LED lights will be better for my office than the CFL lights. I need to find a light to recommend to the electrician. I really wanted the higher lumen bulb but I don't like the fact it is GU24 rather then E26. Maybe I should try the Cree LR6 as it looks like they provide great light even after 1 hour.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Lynn2006, CFL recessed lights could be problematic when the integrated ballast (contained in the recessed can housing) fails as you either need access to the upper side of the can or perform the change from below through the 6" hole.
In addition, the CFL tube is different from the standard E26 base spiral bulbs and costs more.
For CFL cans, the cost breakdown is as follows
1. Recessed can ~ $30 - $40. (Non dimmable)
2. Blub ~ $10 - $15.
3. Trim ring ~ $10+ to $20 (Special trim can go for up to $40).

For LED, assuming you're comfortable with the attached trim
1. Standard can ~$10.
2. Lamp (CR6) ~ $25 - $40 (depending on local promos/ subsidies)
LR6 ~ $75 (there may be promotions around black Friday)
Both the CR6 and LR6 lamps are available with either the E26 or GU24 base.
An alternative brand to CREE is Sylvania, though the dimming performance is not as good and there is a noticeable delay when turning the light on.


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Davidtay - RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Davidtay, I appreciate the breakout of the costs and from all these posts, I really want LED. I also like the light it remits and it seems that I am better off that way. I will see what this electrician quotes and I may call back an electrician that I liked that wanted to do the LED in my kitchen but took two weeks to get back to me with an estimate. He did LED in his house and I guess he was in the middle of a big job. I would like to use CREE from all these discussions and the fact they dim better with a better CRI. I need good light so I cam work efficiently and not be thinking of needing more light but be thinking about my work. I also want the room to look nice as a living room if I sell my townhouse one day that is in a very nice neighborhood surrounded by very nice houses.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I am in the middle of a kitchen renovation and believe I may have made a planning error. I had my contractor install 3 3/4" Lightolier 2000 recessed lights 8 1/2" in front of where my wall cabinets will be installed. I just now came across this post and am concerned that my cabinet will be washed out from the light. Should I go to my contractor tomorrow and ask him to adjust the lights further from the wall, or is the extra 3 1/2" nothing to worry about?

The kitchen is roughly 10 1/2' by 10 1/2'. We have 8 of 3 3/4" cans installed. If its relevant, the cabinets are Toffee colored Kraftmaid cabinets.

I greatly appreciate any help and advice. Thanks.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

It might be worth testing out the lights against toffee colored panels placed approximately at the cabinet location first.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I am new to the forum but I find many searches lead here and there is a lot of smart people here. This is a very interesting information and useful.

I too live in CA so have title 24 issues to consider. I am redoing my kitchen. I want a 4" and I am not a fan of 2700 (I prefer a cooler light so I am thinking 3000 or maybe 3500). That pretty much leaves the Cree lights out unless I go with the LR4. I recall searching a year or two ago and discovering that the LR4 will not fit in a standard 4" can. Has that changed?

Second question, I have not seen Halo (Cooper) mentioned. Any thoughts or commentary on Halo for 4" recessed LED lighting?


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

The LR4 is not competitive in pricing and is probably on the way out anyway.

The main issue with Halo is the uncompetitive pricing (need to buy each piece - trim ring, LED module, can, lens) and the glaring output (mitigated by the lens selection).


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Thank you for the quick response. I and many others appreciate your expertise and generosity in answering questions. So if I rule out the 2500k bulbs I guess my options are Sylvania RT4 at 3000K or spend the extra for Halo and go 3500K. Did I miss any reasonable choices?


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Skidkid & Others - RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Skidkey, I am like you and prefer 3,000K to 3,500K light than 2,700K light. I am wanting to stay with 6" cans to give me more choices. I need recessed cans in my home office as I have no overhead lighting and it is bothering me living with the touchier lamps that produce 4,800 lumen's per lamp from the fluorescent bulbs I am using but the light goes up to the ceiling and bounces off the ceiling rather than face down.

I am now thinking that I need 8 cans but I really want LED and the electrician I like is pushing fluorescent. I told him yesterday to call me after my tax deadline and then we will discuss what I want. I have lived with this poor light for 14 years and now I want light over my head and realize I must invest. I never liked incandescent bulbs for lighting as I feel they are blurry and are not as easy to read under as halogen and fluorescent. But now I learned about LED and feel that is what I would prefer.

I love the light from the Halogen bulbs in my kitchen (just wish I installed 8 instead of 6 as I feel I still need more light despite each bulb being 900 watts and the kitchen only being not quite 10 X 14 in size) that is around 3,000K and 100% CRI, and I even like the 3,500K light bulbs I have in my dining room fixture (Fluorescent) that give such a nice white light that is so easy to work under. I use the dining room as a office for a part-time employee and my living room as my home office that clients walk directly into with a tiny foyer before it so they never have to enter my home. I still have a family room open to the kitchen where I installed the beautiful but very hot halogen recessed lighting near the end of December 2011. I do not want such hot bulbs in my home office.

This electrician says he can try to go through the garage that is next to the living room (my home office) so not to make a mess like is still in my kitchen's ceiling and not fixed yet as I am waiting to see what I do to my home office. I now wish I waited to do the kitchen after I removed my soffit and changed my cabinets that I plan to do in the next few months. I had no idea what mess the kitchen's ceiling would be and that patching it up was not part of the work.

My open rooms have the same ceiling so I want to paint all the ceilings when I am done downstairs except for the family room cathedral ceiling. I can't believe these expensive townhouses came with no lights in the ceiling. I never realized this would be a problem when I fell in love with my home 14 years ago and bought it for the layout and perfect location.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

alot of electricians and installers just aren't familiar enough with LEDs yet so they recommend other stuff. You could just have him install standard incandescent cans (assuming you don't live in CA) with floodlamp bulbs, and replace them yourself with LED floodlamp bulbs or modules.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Our electrician is recommending 6" cans with CFL lights - I think I have elected 5" cans - and I don't like the bulb not filling the can. And also think I have gleaned that the newer way to go is the smaller can -seeing that many others are using 4".

This is for our kitchen - with no attic above - a second floor instead.

Please advise - he is planning on starting on Monday!!


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

The typical CFL can will come with an integrated ballast (mounted on the side of the can in a separate compartment) which is not dimmable. Replacing the ballast is not something that the typical homeowner would do, especially from the underside of the can (ie - the living space). The CF tubes themselves will cost more than the typical spiral CFL lamp.

LED lamps do not require the electronic ballast and are best used with non CFL cans as the ballast does not have to be first disconnected.
The best large aperture LED lights at the moment are CREE series CR6 lamps which will utilize 6" standard depth cans.

For 4", the CREE CR4 is probably the best (from a $ and performance perspective).

6" LED package ( CR6 Lamp + housing) is slightly cheaper than 4". If only a few (<6) are installed, the cost difference is not significant. Labour for installation will account for the bulk of the cost.

The link wobbly1905 posted in another thread is very useful visualization tool.

Here is a link that might be useful: Recessed lamp placement tool


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Thank you Lee676 & davidtay for your replies and input. After my October 15th deadline, I will discuss with the electrician that I really want LED and maybe I should buy my own bulbs.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Thoughts on color temps for a kitchen? Considering the task nature of a kitchen, is 2700 (Cree CR6 in particular) too warm?

We have 10 26-watt recessed can CFLs, at 4100 Kelvin, in our kitchen. Even though the CFLs are relatively efficient, considering usage and our (outrageous) power rates, an upgrade to CR6s would pay for itself in about 15 months. Plus they wouldn't take a minute or two to come to full brightness...


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Don't think so.

I went from a recessed t8 fluorescent light box (3500 - 4000k) to Cree LR6 (2700k) and the space is better lit than before.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Is it possible that HALO housing 6" cans will accept LED bulbs but 5" will not? any experience?


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

ashik,

Put another way, the CREE CR 6 lamps will only fit in 6" cans, not 5". Halo has their own line of LED lamps, housing and trim which may/ may not make economic sense.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Hate to hijack this thread, but it does contain good information in it. For info, I currently have the Halo H25ICAT's installed with the 5060P ring and gimball. Uses currently PAR30S 50W halogen's. I am getting conflicting information from the local lighting stores around here that are telling me that there currently isn't a bulb that would work with this setup. Since I'm a rookie at all this, can anyone guide me a little? I see plenty of PAR30S LED bulbs from Toshiba and Philips, but nothing from CREE that would work?

Anyone know?

TIA


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

The can is 5.5" in diameter, 5.25" deep and CR6 will not fit.
Options
1. The Lighting Science Glimpse will fit.
2. There are a number of PAR30S LED bulbs (some of which use CREE components) you could look at.
3. Halo RL560


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Great forum and I've learned a lot as I've been planning ao replace my two huge and outdated 8-light (35W ea) flourescent boxes. Now that I've just completed my first-ever flourescent/recessed lighting removal/install in my 12' x 13' galley style kitchen I wanted to share what I used for my project. I got all my cans and LED lights from my local LOWE's (and no I don't work for them but Lord knows I should own shares given all the cash I've given 'em for all of my home projects!). Anyways, I used 9 ea NON-IC HALO 4" H99RTAT remodel housing cans ($15.66 ea) and fitted each with a Sylvania Ultra High Performance 4" LED recessed kit lights ($39.98). Even got the ROMEX 12/2 type NM-B power cable there as well. The lights are designed to install in standard 4" insultated & non-insulated housings and as a plus have an integrated trim ring/housing (mine are white but I believe they currently come in a few other colors). that The LED lights were very easy to install (they come with the light assy and a separate short screw-in connector harness)and the whole assemply pushes in snugly in-place with three claw spring "feet" that protrude from its sides around 120 degress apart. The LEDs are 50W wide flood replacements and are rated at 9W while producing 550 lumens at 3000K and are also dimmable (100%-20%). I also installed a Lutron C-L dimmer (also from Lowe's) that appears to work fine after adjustment. The overall effect of these lights versus the boxed flourescents is wonderful...really provides better balanced and "cleaner" light throught the kitchen and I'm happy with the results.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Glad it worked out well,


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I was wondering if somebody could give me some suggestions as to how to fit my LED lights in my 5" cans. I got these lights on ebay (link below). And I tried 4" Halo housings from Lowes, but they were too tight. I also tried 5" Halo cans from Lowes, but they were too big (the opening is actually 5.5", which I'm told is standard). Another issue I have is that I'm installing these on a vaulted ceiling with 2x8 joists, so I need the shallow, IC rated housings. I bougt the Halo H25ICAT housings.
I'm trying to come up with a way to make these LED lights that I bought on ebay fit in the 5" cans, even if I have to rig it somehow. There are small springs on the led light, but they're not big or strong enough to hold the light in the can.

Here is a link that might be useful: ebay lights


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

It appears that those springs are meant to hold the lights against the ceiling board not the sides of a can.


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LED for garage?

davidtay,

Thanks for all the guidance on the kitchen. Think I have it covered, but wondering on lighting a 6 car garage with LED. Currently going to use enormous flourescent fixtures. Thoughts?

Thanks,
tulip55


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

The CR24 or CR44 type troffer lights may be an alternative.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Thanks, davidtay. I believe you're right about the lights being made to be held against the drywall. Any ideas as to how I could make them fit in my 5 inch housings?


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Options
1. Don't use the housings.
2. Fabricate a metal lip to act as the drywall and attach it to the housing.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I've read this entire thread and still have a question. We are renovating our kitchen and putting in 6" recessed can lights, planning to use Cree LED.

Most everyone talks about using the CR6, so sit apparently is the most popular.

What is the difference between the CR6 and the LR6?
Is it basically the color of the light?


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

After doing much research I decided that I wanted to install the HD EcoSmart CR4 or CR6 in my remodeled kitchen only to discover that my contractor installed 5 inch cans. My contractor thinks he can make the CR4 work by placing A second trim ring on the can which will then keep the CR4 from falling out. Has anyone tried this? Do you see any problems with this approach? Thanks for your help...I really want to use the Cree lights.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

The mechanism holding the Cree lights relies on 3 extended prongs at the back of the light digging into the sides of the can to hold the light in place.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

We just started to install 4" led can lights over our kitchen island and discovered the one that was to be centered over the cooktop is smack dab on a joist! What is the best way to distribute the lights - do we just evenly distribute them in the space and not worry about exact centering above the cooktop? Or do we put two over the cooktop or ....????
Our kitchen space has one wall with refrig and sink and cabinets approx length 12' and the island is 8x3.5 placed 48" from the refrig wall.Thanks!


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

If you have a cooker hood with lights, it does not matter as much.

I'd try to evenly spread the cans out.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Thanks for all the great information in this thread.

I went with the Sylvania RT6 for the kitchen. The light is amazing. I have an issue with all 7 kits - they will not mount flush to the ceiling. The cans are on the approved list and there is nothing blocking the RT6 kits from going flush. I can hold them flush to the ceiling but every time I let go they fall a good inch down.

It was suppose to be as easy as putting in a light bulb...i'm guessing the torsion spring isn't working out correctly. Any suggestions to fix this issue would be greatly appreciated as the wife does not like the look of the floating light kits.

Again thanks in advance.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Check what the torsion springs have been attached to. They should go into the same small oval stubs/ slots that are used to hold up trim (using torsion springs).
For example
http://www.lightingzilla.com/el-elm301w.html?gclid=CMGe8NeLnrQCFayPPAodvSMAiw

The tension will automatically pull the lamps tight against the ceiling board.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Thanks for the reply.

I'm using the same small oval slots that are for the trim. It should just pull the lamp up tight - but it doesn't. I ran over to the big box store and asked the lighting worker and they said to try to loosen or tighten the screws on both sides of the lamp. Just got done trying both options and the lamp still falls an inch from the ceiling.

The cans are Capri Lighting model CR1NB which are on the approved housing list for the Sylvania RT6 lamps. Any other suggestions or do I need to start looking for my receipt and return all 7 of these?


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I recently installed 7 RT4's in our newly renovated kitchen. Not sure who manufactured the cans but I have a few that sag a few millimeter's. I spoke with the sales rep and he suggested expanding the torsion springs thus increasing their strength.

Good Luck


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

The other possible cause is the torsion spring is hitting the adjustable base plate.

See if you can test fit a RT6 at the store.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

What a great thread. Can you suggest a good place to purchase 6" Cree's? I've already got the cans installed. Now I need 75 LED's to go into them. They're 40 bucks apiece at home depot!!! I need the plug in ones.

You can contact me off line if you like.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

jlirot, by "the plug in ones" do you mean that you have GU24 sockets?

I finally gave up on waiting for HD to drop the price, and bought my GU24 ones for $40. Never found them anywhere else cheaper. I did get a slightly lower price on my screw-in ones.

BTW, the latest HD/Ecosmart version of the screw in ones is something like 625 lumens, up from the 575 previous.

If you need some of them to be a bit brighter, get the 800L version from polar-ray.com or other place, for $55 each. I did that over my island and kitchen sink.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

We are building a house and want to get LED recessed lights. Our builder has given us an allowence of 20 recessed lights. He has told us not to get LED lights initially because they tend to get knocked around during the build process and would not last, an that we should put something less expensive in initially. Does this sound correct? Also is most of the expense in the bulb or in all else (the housing) that we would need to cover to add more lights over our 20 allowence? In other words is the bulb the bulk of the expense or is it the housing?

Thanks...


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

The led modules are extremely robust and be able to withstand quite a bit of mechanical abuse.

The Cree and sylvania led modules come with the trim piece attached. The conventional recessed light setup will require 3 items - the bulb, can and trim piece.


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Building costs

Labour is the main cost component when installing a large number of recessed lights. To stretch the dollar, you could try negotiating having just the cans installed - no trim or bulb.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

attofarad,

How did you know that the cans have changed from 575 to 625 lumens? Did the part number change (since the '575' was embedded in the part number). I just bought a few more of these and am wondering if I should change them. I don't know if I'll notice a difference in brightness between the 575/625 if they are next to each other.

Thanks.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

sriirvine,

I just saw the new boxes in HD. Different color box, and spec says 625. The "CR6" stock and pricing seems to be changing at HD -- even though they jacked the price from ~$27 to ~$35, they are advertising it in store as a price reduction -- and this in on the older 575L stock. Makes me wonder whether they will stop carrying them, or the CREE agreement changed, or what is going on.

I have 800L in the 9 ft tray part of my ceiling, and 575L in the surrounding 8 ft -- brightness difference is not very obvious, so I don't think you will notice 575/625 much if any.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

attofarad,

Thanks. I'll check them out the next time I'm there.

BTW, in my area, the 6" 575Ls were $34.97 and the 4" 575Ls were 42.97. I've never seen them at $27, but I do know that in some parts, they were subsidized by the local utility. San Luis Obispo for instance had the 6" for $24.97. Perhaps the subsidy for your area expired?


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Will this work?

I'm posting here, as this is the most relevant existing thread for this, and I've searched for answers elsewhere. I think as products get introduced, new solutions get introduced.

My problem: looking for CA Title 24 compliant kitchen lighting that won't result in a swiss cheese ceiling. I also don't want to get stuck into a custom connector, as I find them to be expensive and very risky (from a supply of replacements 10 years down the road).

I'm looking at the Nora 5"
http://www.noralighting.com/uploads/specs/NHIC-5G24ATFL_reflector_trims.pdf
This seems to be CA Title 24 compliant (newly certified) when used with the paired modules.

I like the 900 lumen+ specs of the Sylvania Osram 17W Wide Flood GU24 R30 bulb. It seems like it will fit.

Anyone think any differently? Will it still be CA Title 24 compliant or will I run the risk of not being compliant?


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Proper planning and lamp selection will go a long way to prevent a swiss cheese look.

So long as you use T24 qualified components and procedures (eg - proper insulation, caulking), you'll be compliant. Your electrician should be well versed with T24 by now.

As for connectors, you'd have to use lamps with the GU24 base (eg - CR6, RT6) if you want to avoid connectors like the proprietary bi-pin Halo LED connector.

Self-ballasted CFL bulbs will not last long in cans (especially the cheap E26 base bulbs). See the thermal images posted earlier in this thread.

The total package price for a GU24 base CFL + can + trim may not be competitive with a CR6 with GU24 base + can (depending on your city).


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I'm making a decision about whether to go with LED or Halogen in my new kitchen remodel. I don't like the large cans though which sounds like I would need in order to retrofit Halogen to LED.

What do you think about the 3" LED recessed by Element (Tech Lighting)? They are expensive, but put out 1074 lumens, and come in a flangeless square trim that looks nice.

Should I be worried that I can't upgrade them later (as CRI is currently only 86+)?

Here is a link that might be useful: Element 3


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I won't be worried about the upgrade as LEDs will last quite a while.

If you're concerned with changing the look and upfront costs, steer away from recessed lighting that is smaller than 4".

The smaller the aperture, the more intense the light may seem, especially when reflectors are used.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Our contractor keeps pushing halogens for the recessed cans in our southern California kitchen addition (1899 house). We are nearing the rough electrical stage and I would like him to install warm white LEDs if the cost is not prohibitive. Now our contractor's lighting guy writes that the Cree CR4-575L-GU24s--at least the EcoSmart ones from HD--use plastic colored filters (instead of glass) to warm the color temperature and that although this may keep the cost lower it affects long-term service as the coating tends to crack and break long before the LED gives out. (That's almost a perfect quote.) I want to know if this is right, if non-HD Cree lights (such as those from polar-ray.com) also use plastic, and what you all think of the lighting guy's claim that "equivalents" are "Satco, Viribright or TCP." I am dubious. Should I be?


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I just had 9 of the HD 4" CREEs installed in my kitchen and I love them. I have only had them for 2 months but I can't imagine that the plastic would crack or peel because they do not get hot like halogens or incandescent bulbs. Do not install halogen cans in your kitchen...they will make the kitchen unbearably hot!


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

The Cree lamps - LR and CR series do not rely on plastic colored filters. The lamps have an array of different light color LEDs. There are documented tear downs which show the layout and individual components.

Here is a link that might be useful: More details


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RE: LED recessed cans guide

Here is a better link.

Halogens in recessed lighting in California? How on earth would one comply with title 24?

Here is a link that might be useful: Cr6 tear down


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

My electrician just installed the RC-6 housing for the Cree lights in my kitchen, but we're unsure about which bulb/trim to use. The undercab lights are 4000K light bars; I experimented w/ several different types and chose these because the neutral white was better for close work and I didn't find them to be overly harsh. The electrician is concerned that the 2700K of the CR6 will not work well the UCLs. I'm less inclined to want to go with the 3500K LR6 because of what I have read above and elsewhere about both the shallow housing and the lack of good dimmability. And there is also the 625L vs 800L options on the CR6, so I really have three choices.

My fab electrician is trying to see if he can get all three for me to try, but if that fails, does anyone have any suggestions on how to choose?


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

You also have the 5000K CR6 available from Home Depot. They're not being discounted/rebated, but I have them in my kitchen and I think they're a good match for the 4000K UCL.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Yikes, even more options!!! You were supposed to help me pick, not make it harder! No, seriously, thanks jacob-md for the info. Does anyone know the CRI on the EcoSmarts?? HD is claiming they incorporate the Cree TruWhite technology, so would that put the CRI at 90?


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

My CR4 EcoSmarts have a CRI of 90.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

The 625-lumen CR6 2700K just showed up at my local HD - same price, same SKU, still called ECO-575L. Not obviously brighter than the old ones. Prices here are $35 for the 2700K 6", $37 for the 5000K 6" (also 625L) and $43 for the 4" 2700K. All are the lowest prices they've ever been. The energystar.gov site does show that Cree did indeed submit some new updated CR6 2700K lamps that actually tested as 623 to 625 lumens and 92 or 93 CRI (higher than the advertisied 90 CRI). Also shows that a 5000K version of the Ecosmart 4" CR4 has been approved.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I found the directions and comments very important. I am planning on installing recessed lighting in my kitchen tomorrow. My kitchen is 12 feet long and 6 feet wide. The recessed lighting is going to replace two sections of fluorescent tube lights.

Here’s a pic http://i50.tinypic.com/30axi4h.png

Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen layout


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Cree CR lights are now available in 2700, 3000, 3500 and 4000k light color.

Here is a link that might be useful: Updated Cree CR light specifications


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Thanks for all of this info. I'm undergoing light choices in new construction in CA (SF proper) and looking at the Ecosmart 4" (ECO4-575L-GU24), and looking for appropriate Title 24 cans online, or can @davidtay or @attofarad or anyone else suggest someone local to SF Bay? Thanks in advance.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

jasoncjung -- it's probably easiest for you to get the lights at Home Depot. (The Ecosmart is the Home Depot version of the Cree CR4-575L-GU24).

You will need to buy the housing online because Home Depot doesn't sell it. The only Title 24 compliant, GU24 housing I found that fits this light is the Liton LH99RICA-LLF-GU24 (for remodel, there is another one to use for new construction), and the place I bought it online is alconlighting.

Liton GU24 Remodel Housing for ECO4-575L-GU24

This post was edited by calumin on Fri, May 31, 13 at 10:38


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Yes, you need to purchase the housing online @ HD and have them shipped to the nearest HD for pickup.

Or you could get the housing from other online vendors.

If you decide to get stuff from universal electric supply company, make sure you know the exact items first. Check yelp.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I ended up using mostly 6", but the 4" Elco EL99ICA-G24 cans were maybe about $!4 or so (cannot remember, been a while) at American Ace supply in San Jose. They had to order them. They are a "new construction" style.

I suggest that you have one in hand, along with the LED you plan to use, before ordering all of them.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Thanks @calumin, @davidtay, @attofarad for your help. I will order the bulbs from Home Depot, and try the Liton housing from Alcon ($14,99) to see if it fits.

@davidtay, which housing were you referring to on Homedepot.com?

I'm fine with any brand of new construction housing, the easier for my electrician to install the better.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Interesting that the updated Cree CR6 page linked to above now claims compatibility with some 5" housings - wonder if that's part of the reason behind the subtle design changes that lamp has gone through over the last year. Doesn't say which ones though.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I just exchanged email with Cree and they say that the CR4 in the 30K and 35K colors are scheduled for shipment in early July.

I have been wanting 4" lights but I didn't want 2700 so nothing was jumping out at me as a winner. Now it looks like we will have a good option.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

I'm looking at a 4 pack of the 4" EcoSmart Cree lights on Home depots website...Are these the best quality cost effective LED lights I can get right now and the ones you're referring to for most of this thread? Our electric is being wired this week for our kitchen/fam rm dr remodel....is this what I should tell my contractor I want all throughout?

I read above someone doesn't want 2700...why is that, should I not get these??

In addition to this kit, (which comes to about $40 per light), what else needs to be purchased to install these...just a can & a dimmer? about how much more does that cost?

MY GC was charging us about $100 per recessed light (includes $50/labor & $50 for materials, and he was basing it on fluorescent not LED). He said LED would be much more expensive. But, I'm wondering... if these kits are only $40 each, how will the materials will cost that much more than the $50 standard lighting he was planning on...?

Here is a link that might be useful: 4 pack eco4


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

@homebuyer23 - yes those are the right ones. These lights come both with traditional Edison connectors (like regular light bulbs) and GU24 connectors (which are newer and mostly used if they are required by your city codes) -- make sure you get the right ones.

Home Depot doesn't sell a can that works with this light. You have to buy that separately, probably online. There are two kinds of cans -- "retrofit" and "new construction" -- and refer to the way they are installed in your ceiling. Your contractor will know which ones you need. There are threads that say what cans are compatible with this light but Cree doesn't make one (they do for 6"). The Cree spec says a compatible can needs to be at least 3.5" tall and between 3.9" and 4.1" in inner diameter. Generally you want a can that is ICAT(insulation contact airtight). The can should cost $10-15 each.

You should get a special LED or low-voltage dimmer. The link below shows a list of dimmers tested to be compatible with this light.

Cree CR4 Dimmer Compatibility List

Your contractor probably thinks LED is more expensive because the Home Depot Cree lights brought down the cost of LED substantially, and he's probably not aware of it.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

calumin,
thanks that is really helpful.

Do you mean HD doesn't sell a can that works in the store but I can get it at HDonline? Or HD doesn't sell it anywhere and I'll have to find it online somewhere else?

how do I know which connector type my twp requires? I guess I have to call them...


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

@homebuyer23 -- you should ask at the store. When I bought mine, I needed a GU24 4" can which they didn't sell (either at the store or online), and the salespeople kept trying to sell me a full kit (light, trim, and can) from a different company instead.

Most people use standard Edison connectors, but in some places (like where I live in CA) your city code might have more stringent energy compliance requirements, including using a GU24 connector.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Homebuyer23, I am the one that likes 2,950K light that Halogens produce. I feel 2,700K light is too yellow.

I held off doing my recessed lighting in the office hoping that CREE would come out with a 1,000 Lumen's 3,000K color temperature recessed light that is a retrofit but I see it has not. Reading all of the above and other posts from the prior year, I see that having a retrofit housing gives better light than a bulb as the spread is better and the heat in back of the lamp is not so trapped. Maybe I can live with the 2,700K and it is not as yellow and more of a whiter light than an incandescent bulb?

I like the Phillips bulbs higher lumen's over 1,000 but their CRI is 82 and I fear the light would be trapped so maybe I am better with the CREE LR6 retrofit in the 2,700K for my home office despite only 800 lumen's?

I can not take these torchiere lamps anymore as all of the CFL light is lighting up the ceiling and it is too dark on my desk.

I am doing my floors over due to water damage from the pipe on my water heater bursting (have now a new water heater and all new water lines and a new pressure regulator that had failed) so the furniture will be moved out of the room and I thought it was a good time to call the electrician I chose who I like except he is pushing me to go with halogen.

I LOVE the bright pretty light halogen bulbs give but it is hot in my kitchen from the hot lights if I am in there for any length of time so that would not be good for my home office. I need lights that will not get hot.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Cree lights @ 3000k, 3500k and 4000k light color are available today from retailers other than Home Depot. 800lumens is quite a bit of light from a CR6. The retrofit housing is just a can. The important components are in the lamp.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Davidtay, I did look at the link and try hard to find stores that have these bulbs but I could not. I will call Cree today and the phone number they give for Cree Sales Residential.

I just measured the room that needs recessed lights and without the two foyer areas and not counting the connecting dining room that has a half a wall high and a half a wall long separating the home office (which is the living room) my room is 17' 8" long X 12' 2" wide. My kitchen has 6 recessed light in there that are supposed to be 900 Lumen's and it is not bright enough for me unless I put the 7th light on the sink on and that room is 14' long X 10' wide. I think I may need more than 6 recessed lights? My kitchen lights have very pretty color (Halogen Reveal but I should have went with the GE Halogen bulbs as the radius of light is not that wide on my bulbs creating areas with no light. The ceilings are 8 feet in these rooms that I am putting the recessed lights in.

Maybe 800 Lumen's from a CR6 is better use of lumen's than the 900 lumen's from the Halogen bulb in my kitchen?

Maybe 2,700K LED is a whiter cleaner light than Incandescent bulbs that are too yellow to me?

I like the 90 CRI of the CREE. Philip's has LED bulbs with higher lumen's and more of the 3,000L I want but the CRI is 82 and they are bulbs they go in a can while I seem to like the one piece look of the CREE.

Thank you Davidtay again for always helping us.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Duplicated Post so I erased the duplicate as it was a long post and I can't seem to delete it. I installed Firefox and my problems of duplication I think have gone away.

This post was edited by lynn2006 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 23:12


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Duplicated Post.....

This post was edited by lynn2006 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 23:15


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repeating posts - RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

My post would not post and it kept saying it was saved so I tried three times and then it said it could not post as I already replied. I now see that my post is showing up three times! I hope two get deleted as I can't figure out how to do this. If they are not deleted. I will edit the prior two repeated posts to say less.


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repeating posts - RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Duplicated Post.....

This post was edited by lynn2006 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 23:19


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Gardenweb is having a problem. I only posted once and it said it would save it so I escaped and went to the home forum and clicked the lighting forum and saw that my post came up twice!


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Look at polar-ray.com for the lights.
Led lamps like the cr6 have the led emitters facing the opening. Yes, more light will be available than from a conventional bulb placed inside a can.


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RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

Thank you Davidtay for your advice and knowledge. I will go to the polar-ray.com site now to see what they have available. I really would like to get a cr6 and hope they have a 3,000K temperature available.


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David Question: RE: LED recessed cans guide for kitchen ...

TCP PRO LED PAR38 - 17 Watt - 3,000K - 40 Degree : TCP LED17E26P3830KFL seems to have the temperature I want and is 1,050 Lumens and is on sale at $30.99. I prefer the CREE but the ones with the temperature not being 2,700K are over $100 and I still have to install the cans so I think if I go with this bulb, prices of the CREE will eventually go down and I can then replace my kitchen lights with the CREE. The Cree is more energy efficient and has a wider spread of light.

Is the TCP a decent bulb? If I put 6 - 9 of these in my office (not sure what I need yet), would this be good?


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