Placement/ layout
1. Cans should be > 24 to 30 inches from the wall (on center). Most countertop spaces have upper cabinets (typically ~ 12" deep) + crown molding. The edge of the can may be spaced ~ 12" away from the edge of the crown molding (if present or cabinet if there is no crown molding) making the average distance between 26 to 30 inches.

2. Assuming the need for a fairly uniformly lit space @ 35 lumens per sq ft, the cans may have to be spaced closer together - between 3 - 4 ft apart (if all general lighting is provided by recessed lights). A fairly regular pattern is preferable to a random layout.

3. The actual layout of cans will be impacted by the location of ceiling joists, HVAC ducting, electrical wiring, plumbing, ceiling height, fire suppression sprinklers and other obstructions above the ceiling.

Dimming
The Cree LR6 series lamps do not dim as well as the later models (CR6, ...). ELV dimmers probably work better with LR6 than incandescent dimmers since the total load of the lights may not meet the minimum load requirement for the incandescent dimmer.

Dimmers such as the Lutron Diva CL dimmers work well. The max output is 95%.

Some Choices (in order of preference) and notes
Cree CR6 or ECO-575 (Home Depot branded CR6)
ECO4-575 (Home Depot branded Cree CR4 4" recessed light)
The above are only available in 2700k light color.

Cree LR6 series - including the LE6.

The Cree CR6 and LR6 lamps will not fit into 5" housings.

The standard LR6 behaves more like a surface mount than a recessed light as the LED emitters are close to the surface and the recess is shallow. Some may not like the amount of light spillage (standard LR6).

There is a higher output version of the LR6 that has a much deeper recess.

To prevent the Cree lamps from falling out, the 3 prongs have to be fully extended and a slight clockwise twist made when push installing. The slight clockwise twist will ensure that the prongs are fully extended.

The Cree lamps are currently the best available today (2012).

Sylvania RT-6, RT-4. The lights could be easier to install than Cree lamps as they utilize the torsion spring mechanism. However, the lights do not look as pleasant as the Cree lamps.

The Cree and Sylvania lamps do outperform 26W CFLs (and incandescents) in a standard recessed can in terms of light spread and output as the standard bulb in a can solution traps a significant amount of light. The Cree and Sylvania recessed lamp solutions referenced above have all the LED elements facing outwards so that the effective light output is higher.

The CRI (Color Rendition Index) of Cree and Sylvania recessed lamps > 80.

There is no warm up time required for Cree recessed lamps, unlike CFL light bulbs.

Most recessed lighting is used with flat ceilings. Sloped ceilings would require special solutions such as the LE6 or some other form of lighting (i.e. -non recessed lighting).

Some common objections to recessed can lights stem from
1. looks and performance of traditional can lights (standard bulb in a can)
2. swiss cheese effect from too many holes.

You have answered these questions so often that the summary guide is very helpful. Some additional situations come readily to mind (my own for example) ...

Most of us will use under cab lighting for countertop tasks. Given a 50 inch aisle between countertops and island, should the can lights be centred on the aisle for general lighting rather than over the edge of the countertop?

For those undercab lights, what are the "rules" for spacing the "pucks" ... and any special notes for LED strips.

For island pendants, what is the favoured solution ... is a LED light recommended? and if so which one?

On the other hand, a counter argument can be made that as there probably will be pendants over the island, the cans should be placed around the edge of the countertop.

There is a LED Continuation thread that covers strip lighting. Puck spacing really depends on the output of each puck and the length of cord between. Installing puck lighting could be more work than the equivalent strip light since each would have to be individually fastened and aligned along with the cord between.

Island pendants can take many shapes from a suspended tube light to individual lamps (40W / 60W/ ...).

LED bulb tips
1. Always look for the output in lumens. Never rely on vague claims of "output like X watts" which is an old trick.
2. If the output per watt is ~ 20+ per watt, that is no better than using a halogen. The L-prize bulb from Philips produces > 90 lumens per watt.
3. The CRI should be 80 or better.

Is is better to have a decorative light in the center of the kitchen or use cans throughout. We have 7 feet between counters

Thanks!

If you have an eye on a decorative fixture, by all means see if it will fit in with the style of the room/ kitchen.

Some additional notes.
1. It will be easier to plan the pattern of light cans if the ceiling is not yet installed.
2. Retrofit cans rely on the ceiling board for support unlike the new construction cans.
3. Do check on the local energy code requirements. If you are subject to energy efficiency laws such as Title 24, the choice of bulb/ lamp and housings will be affected. For example, Title 24 requires that the housing is airtite and rated for insulation contact.

They showed me some new bulbs that just came in recently.
Both are GE and use a standard socket (A style)
Have you tried these?

GE energy smart LED 2700K BR 30L 750 lumens - this one looks just like a standard bulb for a can

GE energy smart LED 2700K PAR 30L 740 lumens - this one has little dots that you can see if you look up.
Both can be dimmed (but I think you need to use a low watt dimmer)

The store loaned me the bulbs to try tonight. Right now I have the PAR 30 installed. My husband says looks OK as long as you don't look up.

I am going to switch to the regular bulb now.

By low watt dimmer do you mean electronic low voltage (ELV) dimmer?

If you're subject to title 24, the requirement is that a high efficiency recessed can needs a non edison base connector (e.g.- GU24 connector instead of a E26)

The rationale behind the no edison (E26 screw in) base is to prevent people from fitting low efficiency lighting into the socket.

Other things to look at (for lamp/ bulb performance)
1. The startup time - some LEDs do not come on instantaneously
2. Dimming range.

The Cree lamps are actually 90 or higher, which is one of their advantages over most other brands which are usually 80 to 85. Their separate floodlamp bulbs (without integral trim kits) are even better, up to 94 CRI.

The only difference is that some will have an attached pigtail (CR4/ ECO4-575, LR6 with GU24 whip adapter)

The socket needs to be removed from the plate and left dangling.
1. Unscrew the bulb.
2. Remove the existing trim piece.
3. Loosen the adjustable plate so that you can take it out.
4. Detach the edison base from the plate.
5. Screw in the CR6/ LR6.
6. Fully extend the 3 metal tabs.
7. Push in the lamp and give it a slight clockwise twist at the end.

For LR6 lamps with the GU24 whip connector, follow the instructions that came with the whip connector.
Summary below
1. Snip off the 2 wires to whatever connector (e.g. - E26) is in the can.
2. Attach each of the wires in the whip connector to the corresponding wire.
The result is that you will have a GU24 connector dangling around in the can.
If you're not comfortable modifying the can, get an electrician (preferably one who has done the procedure).

For the CR4,
1. Unscrew the bulb.
2. Remove the existing trim. If your can is similar to the HI99CAT, there will not be an adjustable plate. This is most likely the case.
3. Make sure the 3 tabs are fully extended.
4. Screw in the E26 end of the pigtail.
5. Push the lamp into the existing can and give it a slight clockwise twist at the end.

Sylvania RT6 (Edison base)
Follow steps 1 through 5 as for the Cree LR6/ CR6.
Hook in the torsion springs as described in the accompanying installation instructions
RT4 (Edison base)
Follow steps 1 through 4 as for the Cree CR4. Final step is identical to that for the RT6.

LR6 after > 1hr of use

E26 base CFL in can after warmup period. This pict provides a reason why screw in CFLs do not last very long in recessed cans.

Thank you for all the excellent information! We live in California and are building a home, thus we need new construction housings & approximately 60 lights. I like everything you've said about the ECO4-575, but Home Depot doesn't sell a kit or an accompanying housing. What do you recommend?

I should clarify. We desperately need help finding recessed LED 4" lights for new construction, Title 24 compliant (we live in CA), and 2700K. Right now, it seems that we can get a kit for 6" LED's with 3000k lights for $60, but the 2700K light kits are $180. As we need approximately 60 lights, you can see how this becomes an issue. We've looked into buying the components separately, and for a trial run we have ordered a ECO4-575 ($39), and an Elite 4" IC New Construction Airtight Dedicated LED Can ($15).

I've read online that each manufacture has different connections, so our soft white ECO4-575's won't work with the Elite cans. I checked Home Depot & they are pretty much useless with regards to both products & information. I looked online & found the "Cree H4 - 4" Recessed Housing with GU24 Socket", but it requires specific downlights & trims, and the price totals $140.

We have 8' ceilings, except in the kitchen where they're 7.5'. My husband & I are both 6'+, and having a large can that close to eye level looks horrible, I don't want anything larger than a 4" can.

I welcome any suggestions on how we can light our home for less than $100/light.

Thanks in advance for your help.

To be totally compliant with Title 24, you would need to get the CR4 with the GU24 base.

The Elite cans could be usable with an adapter which replaces the connector end. Just check the internal dimensions of the can.

Alternatives - Sylvania RT4 with GU24 base.

It would probably be better to get non E26 base recessed cans first and then get the CR4 with the GU24 base (the LR6 did come with the GU24 whip adapters)

The LED has a twisted wire with the GU24 on the end. I could barely get it connected (wife's smaller hands help). If they made the wire 1" longer it would be easy, if it were 1/2" shorter it would be impossible.

The ECO4 comes with a GU24 socket and connectors so that one can permanently convert an Edison can. They make the wires rather short. I picked up an Elco 4" Edison can with adjustable position. The eBay GU24 snap-in socket replaced the Edison with ease, so that is another way to go. Elco also makes the 4" GU24 version EL99ICA-G24 with adjustable position, so that should also work okay.

Am I going to run into any inspector issues (San Jose, CA) putting Cree or Sylvania LED trims in various cans? Do the cans or LEDs have to be rated to work together?

Gary

The inspector is supposed to make sure that the cans (and the installation) comply strictly with title 24.

> The inspector is supposed to make sure that the cans
>(and the installation) comply strictly with title 24.

And there is the rub. Something that I had missed in my earlier reading is that

"A luminaire with a factory installed GU-24 lamp holder may be classified as high efficacy provided that it meets all of the following requirements:
1. The luminaire is not a recessed downlight rated to be used with a compact fluorescent lamp; and ..."

The cheaper Nora and Elco GU-24 cans are rated for self-ballasted CFLs, which makes those cans fail Title 24. So this means that, to pass Title 24 with new recessed kitchen fixtures, you can ONLY use an LED-only can with GU24, or a CFL can with ballast in the can (NOT GU24). Already spending extra just not to have a screw-in socket, now seems that I have to spend even more if I want LED.

There is further language in the 2008 Title 24 that allows LED trims, that have been approved by the State of CA for efficacy, to be installed in GU24 cans which are listed for CFLs, despite the above paragraphs. So all is good, except that everything costs more (can, LED) for GU24.

As the quoted language 3 posts up said, GU24 recessed cans rated for CFL are specifically not allowed for Title 24 compliance. Apparently you can get by that only by installing an approved LED trim in that can. Approval for LED would require at least 40 lumens/watt under 15W, at least 50 lumens/watt 15-40 watts, and at least 60 lumens/watt for LEDs over 40 watts.

One might think this indicates an improvement. But I took down an old CR-6 that I bought nearly a year ago. Both new and old measured 9.5 watts on my Kill-A-Watt meter.

Wow, those new Cree/Ecosmart CR6's (ECO-800L) look great - rated at 800 lumens but measured at 877.3, also 93 CRI, 2700K. Hopefully these will show up at HD soon, and not be too expensive. The spreadsheet shows Edison-base versions too as well as GU24.

"Most recessed lighting is used with flat ceilings. Sloped ceilings would require special solutions such as the LE6 or some other form of lighting (i.e. -non recessed lighting)."

I have a sloped ceiling in my living room and had hoped to use 4". Is there a 4" option that you can recommend for sloped ceilings?

How bad would it be to install the ECO4-575's?

Thank you!

If you need the lights pointing directly down, the ECO4-575 will not fit the bill. Your best option would be to use standard sloped ceiling trim with a bulb.