"easy tiger"??? You must have misunderstood what I wrote. what I was TRYING to say is the only reason we got a new W & D is to accommodate large comforters. Our previous W & D were PERFECT, but just too small (both were TL's)

Fastonetime, since you mentioned steam, I have a question for you: do you use the steam in your washer much? Do you find that it makes a significant difference? I've read that it's a gimmick and useless, and I've also heard people say that they think it makes a difference. I'm getting the 60 for other features than the steam capability--but just wondering about the steam. I really went back and forth about the wave touch controls, too. They just seem fiddly to me. I like buttons where I can see at a glance what's been programmed, rather than having to scroll through. I might yet change my mind about that, but it just seemed more straightforward to me.

Thanks.
Cj

cj47. it's a gimmick. I've got a steam W & D (Samsung 520 series). the temperature of the "steam" wash cycle is a JOKE. the water temperature is less than 120 even with the hot water AT THE BACK OF THE WASHER coming in at over 140 degrees, thanks to the ATC which always throws cold water in along with the "hot" water. A bit of steam blowing in from above the door is kinda like peeing into the ocean and expecting the ocean level to rise. :)

Hi Cj, i do understand about the wave touch controls, takes a little of getting use too. I had a front load lg, with steam and i loved it, i always used the steam and i always saw the steam. Blood, grass stains, dirt and more always came out and i always used the steam on my towels and bedding. When my LG FL died, i got a replacement Kenmore Elite TL, without steam, and i really did see the difference, i really hated my choice and hated not having a steam option. The Kenmore TL damaged itself, a plastic hanger broke within a week of owner ship, so i got to choose a new washer. I tell you i'd never go with a hE TL again. It was nice, but i had been using my FL for years and honestly, i love FL washers. I'm glad im back to using the steam option again!

By the way, people who talk about their washers not getting hot or feel cold when on a hot cycle, you have to flush the hot water line, closest to the washer, until you see the water coming out with steam, then start your washer. If you think about it, the washer fills up with coldwater for maybe 3 minutes, until then it turns hot, well the washer is already probably half way filled up by that time, so really no hot water, but a little actually gets into the washer. When flushing first, it makes sure that hot water is coming in at the moment the washer is started! This is with my experiance!

fastoneime, not so on the samsung. i flush the line, but the ATC in the Samsung prevents me from getting what I call a "HOT" wash. wash temp peaks at about 114 degrees, which is pretty wimp. on SANATIZE it hits a max of 134 near the end of the cycle. The tech came out today and verified that we are at the mercy of the programming of the ATC. Sure, for someone who's hot water line is filled with cold water, of course they will get cold water, but even with 140+F right AT THE WASHER, the Samsung still won't provide a truly HOT wash.

oops. too bad we can't edit our posts.

I meant to write,"which is pretty wimpy."

and I meant to write "SANITIZE".

Interesting, I emailed Electrolux about whether the onboard heater kicks in during warm/hot wash cycles, and it's my understanding that it does. Here is part of the reply I received from Electrolux:

"Hot water is most often 10 degrees colder when it arrives at your machine from when it leaves your hot water heater. In general hot water is 130-140 degrees Fahrenheit (54.4 Celsius) or above. Warm water is between 110 and 90 degrees Fahrenheit ( 43.3-32.2 Celsius). Cold water is generally between 80 and 60 degrees Fahrenheit (26.7-15 Celsius). If cold water is below 60 degrees Fahrenheit (15 Celsius), clothes are unlikely to be cleaned very well.

The heater does keep the water at a consistent level while in the unit, and may only drop a few degrees when it reaches the spin cycle due to the air circulation and rpm speed of the unit itself. The heater only works when a heated cycle is selected. If you choose tap or cold water, of course you will not receive any higher temperature. "

It's my understanding that you can choose the "Eco" settings to just use the water at the temperature that it comes from your water heater. However, if you don't choose this setting, it sounds like the onboard heater will kick in.

Cj

Dave1812, Sandy16 and Fastonetime--sorry, we posted at about the same times and I didn't see your replies before I hit enter. Thanks for your responses! You see my confusion here--I'm hearing the same conflicting opinions about steam here that I've heard everywhere else. Perhaps the brand of washer makes a difference. I'm interested in seeing how the E'lux steam washer works first hand. :-) I didn't choose this model for the steam, but rather more for the size and a few of the other features it has that appeal to me. If the steam ends up to be something that actually makes a positive difference in the laundry, I'll be pleased and take it as a bonus!

Now to be patient and wait for the next round of rebates/sales/etc.

I have to ask, Dave 1812--what is "ATC"?

Thanks, everyone.

Cj

@cj47......love this response from Electrolux. Very typical of the MANY non-informational responses received by many people inquiring about the same issue with washers and dishwashers. Very simple question gets a very wordy non-answer.

Arrgh, I do wish we could edit posts.

Livebetter--I know that the Miele pair is very likely the bomb, but in reviewing what it would cost for a pair plus the pedestals, it's just going to be more than we can spend. I do appreciate your input, though.

Asolo, you're completely right about the comforter--and I'll just have to wait and see.

Thanks, everyone.
Cj

Asolo, do you get a different message than I do? I'm not getting that the machine will actually heat up the water if it comes in cold--I'm thinking that there's a limit, otherwise the cycles would go for hours. It sounds to me as though if it comes in fairly hot, it may raise it a few degrees and keep it at that level throughout the wash cycle.

I'll follow up with another email and see what comes back.

Thanks,
Cj

I really love the wave touch! In my manual it says the sanitize cycle is about 150 degrees. Very hot! I have to heard that people dont like the steam or didnt think it made a difference, i used the steam on my LG FL and whenever i added the steam option, it automatically changed the water temp from warm to hot, so you couldnt do a steam cycle without how water as default. So thats why when i wanted to use steam i just did a santize cycle which defaults with steam! Confusing i know, but you get the hang of it, and like dark colored clothes, i never saw a need for them being steamed, as the hot water would probably fade them really fast.

Steam on the Lux works by extending the main wash by 20 minutes with the water heater engaged. There is no separate steam generator as on LG or Samsung washers. This will help raise the water temp but it doesn't steam the clothes like LG and some others - not that it makes a performance difference IMO.

Remember: the heater may engage on all wash cycles on the Lux but how much good will and can it do on those very fast wash cycles? The first generation of user manuals had the main wash times in it and the longest wash was 21 minutes - that's less than Speed Queen! I can't but doubt that 20 minutes are enough to raise the temp of a full laundry load significantly. However, Lux offers some very interesting features. Allergen, per NSF requirements, raises the temp to 131F; Stain Pretreat fills with cold water and heats it from there and Steam adds 20 minutes of heated washing.

All good features - if the work as claimed. It would be nice to know what Electrolux says regarding target temps for different settings. And why there is no Bulky cycle on their washers.

BTW: the new line of Frigidaire washers and dryers are worth looking into as well. Many features of the Electrolux units but for less money.

Alex

I was going to say the same thing re: steam. LG has a seperate steam generator. I can't speak to how it actually works but in theory sounds good. It will emit actual steam into the drum.

I wonder what about the Electrolux causes it to be ranked so much lower on Consumer Reports than many of the other brands? It sounds like a nice machine.

What makes the Miele W4XXX series different? Does it pause to heat the water correctly, therefore not limited to the time displayed? Curious ...

@fastonetime, it's nice you're happy. You've had enough disappointment. I've been very happy with my FL machines for the past 11 years. I can't see a reason to ever return to TL at this point. Although, I do think what machine you choose plays a huge part in your happiness with it (obviously) - they are not all created equal.

@cj47, so far the Miele pair really are awesome. But I understand your hesitation re: price. They are even more expensive here in Canada and it took me months to decide to do it. The one thing that helped push me over the edge was a free upgrade to a 10 year warranty (worth $1,000 for both machines). It is their highest service level and you get other extras as well. It's nice to know after spending that much money that you are covered for anything for 10 years.

I am very happy with what i've chosen now, i really cant do a TL anymore, i tried once and it just wasnt what i thought it was going to be. I like how the clothes are tossed better in the FL, and how the clothes always come clean!

Whirlpool.there is no "bulky" cycle, but in the manual it says to use heavy duty for bedding and towels, or sanitize for bedding and towels!

cj47, I don't see that anyone specifically answered what is ATC.

ATC = automatic temperature control. A sensor in the incoming water stream, after the hot & cold valves have already mixed, monitors the temp. The machine's control board turns the hot or cold valve either on or off if the temp either exceeds or does not reach the target temp.

For example, when the fill is warm and the target is 90F to 110F, the machine may initially run both the hot and cold valves. If the mixed water flow exceeds 110F, the hot valve shuts off. If/When it drops below 90F, the hot valve turns back on.

For a cold fill targeting 60F to 80F, only the cold valve probably activates initially. If the water flow after a minute or so is lower than 60F, then the hot valve turns on. When the flow exceeds 80F, hot turns off again.

And so forth.

In majority of cases the hot and cold valves are either on or off to keep the average temp of the incoming flow between the upper and lower extremes of the target temperature range. One brand I know (Fisher & Paykel) can directly control the valves to maintain the target mixed temp. Maybe there are others.

ATC by itself does NOT check the actual temp in the tub, it monitors only the incoming flow while fill is happening. So even, for example, if a warm incoming flow is maintained between 90F and 110F, the resultant temp in the tub will be less due to the clothes and mass of the tub/drum absorbing some of the heat. This is where an onboard heater can come into play. Machines equipped thusly DO have a sensor for the water in the tub and can boost or maintain the temp to the target after fill.

The heater in a typical 120v machine can usually raise the temp by about 1F per minute ... depending on the wattage of the heater and volume of water involved ... possibly less than 1F/minute if one considers the mass of the clothes, tub, drum, and the water. This is why the cycle time is so long for a high-temp Sanitary cycle. Even a generous start of 110F in the tub would take 48 minutes to reach 158F, for example, and that's JUST for the wash period of the cycle.

Regards to the people complaining that their machine doesn't reach the stated/advertised target temps ... as I stated in another thread, these machines are operated by software on the controller boards. The manufacturer can change the operating characteristics by modifying the software, updating the board to a different software version, and the model numbers of the machines don't necessarily change when there's board revision. I certainly agree that it's dishonest to explicitly state temperatures that a machine does not / cannot achieve ... but there's not much can be done short of a lawsuit against the manufacturer. If the machine is operating per its programming parameters, changing the board or otherwise servicing the machine isn't going to make a difference.

Dadoes, thank you very much for that very useful information.
Whirlpool Trainee, I'm surprised that there's not actual steam generated by the machine, since it's advertised as having steam. I think it's time for another question for the E'lux person. LOL...will report back.

Livebetter, I'd probably not be so itchy about buying a Miele pair if I hadn't just remodeled my kitchen and installed a Miele Induction Cooktop, which, by the way, runs a close second to my husband for title of "love of my life". The thing is awesome. Cooking is a passion of mine, so I while I paused at the price tag, it wasn't enough to actually stop me. :-) Laundry is not quite as far up there on the "makes my socks go up and downness" meter, so I'm not as willing to splurge there. If I was, though, I'd have to wait another year or so to save up, with fingers crossed that the Maytags would hang in there. :-p

I keep hearing about how the E'lux washers did not fare well with Consumer Reports and I'm curious about that, but not curious enough to pay for a subscription to find out what they didn't like and about which models. :-) The reviews I'm reading are pretty good overall, with a few bad ones that were obviously machines that were defective to begin with.

Cj

@cj47, I currently have a Dacor gas dual fuel but I swear ... I'm going induction next time (gas is just a PITA to keep clean - at least mine is). I've been so happy with my other Miele appliances that I'll definitely look to them first. Good to hear you're so happy.

Laundry happens to be a "passion" of mine ... I know ... weird eh? People in my life don't understand it but they sure are glad to have me to call when they have a question ... LOL.

I'm a little biased of the Electrolux because I know someone in high end appliance sales and it's not one of his favourites. He's a Miele guy (even been to Germany to see manufacturing first hand). He told me not to touch the Electrolux ... luckily I wasn't fond of the design anyway so it was a no brainer for me.

I narrowed down to the Miele W4842 or LG WM3885 (or WM3875).

Unfortunately, CR doesn't give too many specifics but I can tell you this is how it rated compared to the #1 machine:

The top machine (Whirlpool Duet WFW94HEX[W]) scored 87 overall.

The Electrolux models were listed:

Electrolux IQ Steam EIFLS55I[IW] - score 72

Electrolux IQ EIFLW55IRR - score 72

Electrolux IQ EIFLW55I - score 72

Electrolux Wave-Touch EWFLS70J[IW] - score 63

They all scored "good" for washing (but not very good or excellent). The Wave Touch appears to have lost points for vibration which came in at "good" compared to the other 3 units at "very good".

Just for a point of reference - the Miele scored 80 (both the LGs I mentioned scored 79 and 80 respectively). All three scored "very good" for washing.

I would take all that with a grain of salt though. There are many variables CR does not take into account that they should. What I might read here is that the IQ may be a better choice? Not sure ... good luck either way. It's so hard deciding and parting with hard earned $$.

OK, I've heard back from E'lux. I have to say that I'm pretty impressed with their response times to questions. I've emailed them a couple of times, and I always hear back within a day or so.

Though I'd touched on the subject of the onboard heater in a prior email, this time, I stated my query as clearly as I knew how: By Electrolux's definition, "HOT" water is between 130F and 140F. If I select a "Hot" wash, or a cycle that uses a hot wash, and the water coming into the machine is cooler than that, will the onboard heater kick in and heat the water to the specified temperature and keep it there throughout the wash cycle? Here is the answer I received this morning:

"Yes the on board heater will heat the water to the desired and necessary temperature and maintain that temperature as long as a heated cycle is selected."

My second question was in response to Whirlpool Trainee's assertion that the Electrolux machines do not generate steam, but instead just heat up the water and extend the wash by 20 minutes. I wanted to be clear on how that feature works. Here's what the E'lux rep had to say:

"Our steam feature does actually steam the clothes much like a handheld steamer machine. This is created with a steam nozzle in the unit and works very well, as long as the water pressure in the home is not jeopardized. What I mean by this is do not have someone in the shower and the dishwasher going at the same time. Your results would not be as satisfactory - though the setting / feature would still work!"

I did tell the rep that I'd be sharing the response here. For my part, I find those answers clear enough to put the question to rest in my mind.

Wishing everyone here a joyful holiday season!

Cj

Livebetter, I tried to send you a PM but there's no email listed for you. Should you want more info about induction, feel free to contact me. I'm happy to reciprocate with info in my area of "passion". :)

Cj

To anyone who reads this, do not buy an Electrolux anything, they are not the Electrolux of 50 years ago and are junk.

I've had them replace my fridge 3 times in 1 year and the pesent one has the same problem as the other 2 even after installing a part they realized they left off during production. I had to buy the extended repair warranty in order to own this piece of cr@p. Believe me they are junk!!

HIWTHI, that's silly! I have an Electrolux dishwasher and it is AWESOME. Had it about a year and it is super quiet, well made, cleans dishes very well, uses little water. the only other washer I'd consider is the Miele.

Having said that, I wouldn't recommend the Electro clothes washers... :)

"Having said that, I wouldn't recommend the Electro clothes washers... :)"

Could you elaborate on why?

Dave1812, I'd also be interested in hearing about why you wouldn't recommend an Elux clothes washer. Livebetter, did the tech that told you to stay away from them elaborate on why?

I have an Electrolux refrigerator and it works just fine. I've had it for about a year and a half with no issues at all. I also have E'lux double ovens, and have been very, very pleased with their performance. I guess that's why I'm comfortable with the brand, I've had good luck with it so far. If there's something I've missed specifically, I'd like to find out what it is BEFORE I plunk down the hard earned cash on it. :-) The first of the year is coming and I'm gearing up to pounce if I see rebates or a good sale.

I'd also looked into the Whirlpool Duets. They also seem like nice machines, but I see an awful lot of people are mad because they don't last very long. I'm not expecting to get another 20 years out of whatever I buy this time (unless it's a Miele) but I'd like to see 10 at least.

Hope y'all had a terrific holiday.

Cj

cj47 is all of the negative reviews and information from repair people, consumers, and salesman (that I trust). I decided not to buy an Electrolux w & d after first lusting after them. :) I wanted them initially due to liking our dishwasher, along with the HUGE CAPACITY of the Electroluxe's. I had to temper my enthusiasm for them, based on hard cold facts, so I opted for a Samsung. Had I not listened to any of that info, I know i'd have buyer's regret, had I went ahead with the El's.

typo corrections:

First sentence should read:

"CJ47: because of all the negative reviews..."

I have a Bosch Vision 500 DLX for almost 2 years. No problems.

On board heater engages on all cycles.

Sanitary cycle reaches 170 degrees.

Stain Removal button breaks down cycle into 12 distinct temperature zones and washes in each temp for at least 3 minutes.

Sanitary + Stain Removal= European Profile Wash or as close as one can get to it with modern USA available machines.It is about a 3 hr wash with full load but I set the timer for 5AM.

Sanitary + Stain Removal + Persil = really clean whites

Alot of the negative reputation for Vision came from the Nexxt. Bosch first attempt at 27" washer(I think). It really shook.It shook itself into many repairs. No so with the Vision.

Unfortunately too little too late for Bosch.

But not for me:)

@ Cj

Hm, and how is steam produced? I looked at all the exploded views of the Electrolux washers and none included anything remotely related to "steam". No steam generator, no steam nozzle... Just the heater underneath the drum. Same also goes for Whirlpool/Maytag, despite the Steam for Stains button.

Samsung has a Steam Kit above the drum and LG has that TrueSteam generator. Would love to know how Electrolux/Frigidaire does steam the clothes "like a handheld steam" without a steam generator in their machines.

deeageaux, I'm jealous! (those hot temps).

I've not read this entire thread - just wanted to say that both my husband and I are *very* happy with our Electrolux Wave Touch Front Load washer and dryer. We have a King bed that the dog and cats sleep on, so being able to wash the comforter was important to us as well.

I wanted steam in the dryer - that was important to me - and it works as I had expected. I've never used the steam in the washing machine.

Why don't you like the doors? I find them very easy to use. We don't use pedestals because we have a counter running across the entire length (priority for us), so I simply push with my knee and the door opens - very convenient.

Thanks, Jeri.

I've come to think that a pop open door might be convenient, now that you mention it. :-)

David1812, I'm fairly curious about the negative reviews yo mentioned. For the model I'm looking at, which is an IQ touch, EIFLS60J, the reviews I've found are actually pretty good. I also had one salesperson 'warn' me away from Electrolux, saying that they'd had a fair number of returns on them. When I asked for details, she went and checked. It turned out that the vendor that they'd hired to install the gas dryers was doing a poor job and leaving them dented or damaged, so they'd be returned or require a service call. But the salesperson only said, "Electrolux has a lot of problems". Since then, I take salesperson warnings with a grain of salt unless they're giving me details!

Thanks for the input, everyone.

Cj

I don't proclaim to be any kind of an expert. We took delivery on a Electrolux FL W and D model 60 yesterday. We did a heavy bathroom rug for one of the inaugural washes and it was fascinating to watch and worked like a charm. I know bedding would not have been an issue.
I hope to contribute useful information as time goes on.

Kjente, welcome to the forum! Thank you for your reply. I'd be very interested to hear how you like your machine as time goes on.

Cj

it was fascinating to watch

I agree! I like watching it too. I had one of the first Maytag FL before this and it didn't have a window - I didn't know what I was missing! :-)

I am also astounded at how little water it uses.

Whirlpool Trainee, the answer is that I really don't know. Unsure how they can advertise steam without a steam generator or something of that ilk in the machine.

ah, cj47, don't they advertise hot water carpet cleaners as "Steam cleaners"? Even though I own a handheld Bissell actual steam cleaner, many floor models of various brands are called steam cleaners when in fact they just use hot water.

And there you have it: hot water = steam. Whether it's "real" steam or "just" steam as a natural side product created by hot water in the washer's drum. Most steam dryers actually spray water in the drum, which turns into steam from the heat inside the drum. It's not a real spray of steam but steam is created eventually .

It's all marketing in the end, IMO.

whirlpool trainee, u are absolutely right. I watched my dryer yesterday run a "steam" cycle, to remove wrinkles from a new tablecloth. all it did was squirt water into the drum, actually soaking a section of the tablecloth. It's no wonder there were still wrinkles when I took it out--much of the TC remained dry throughout the process. sigh.

This is where, I believe, the "true steam generator" on the LG might work a little better. It actually makes steam that it adds to the drum.

When I was considering the WM3885, I was quite intrigued by that feature.

I believe, even Miele, is introducing steam in Germany.

Yes, but Miele uses steam to dewrinkle, not as part of the main wash. Steam is not a big thing in Germany yet. Basically, only LG promotes is heavily.

Alex

Here is a link that might be useful: Steam in Miele Washing Machines

My Miele W4842 washes my king size comforter just fine. It was one of the first things I tested and it came out clean and nice on the comforter wash cycle. Now, the comforter I have does not go down to the floor on either side of the bed but maybe hangs off a foot on both sides and at the end of the bed (approximately 88"X100"). I can't seem to find a tag that says what it is filled with or what type of fabric it is but it's a pretty nice and thick comforter.

Thanks for posting, willhi895--that's good to know!

Cj

Meanwhile, back in Electroluxland, today's large load consisted of a queen size heavy cotton blanket, 2 bath sheets, kitchen towels and a bath mat. This machine laughed in the face of that weight.

Wow...thanks for that info, Kjente. :-)
How do you find that the machine works for smaller loads? Do they get agitated properly? I like the large capacity, but the fact is I will not always be filling it full, perhaps 2/3 or maybe even half loads wouldn't be uncommon, depending on what it is that's being washed. But definately full loads for things like bedding and towels.
Thanks for the update, I do appreciate it.

Cj

a guy that I work with knows someone that owns an appliance store. He told the guy that I work with that the majority of buyers are people like us who are empty nesters and can't really put the machine through the paces that it "can" do. That said, the majority of our wash loads are small. It's only been a couple weeks, but I certainly have no worries at this point about the cleanliness of the small loads of any type (I am a separator, husband is not).

I don't think you're going to find anything that will last as long as your old Maytags.

As to pedestals, if you still have the number of your carpenter, have him make you some. All you need is a simple box, painted to match your room, with perhaps some drawers put in. Nothing really fancy unless you're in the mood.

Hi cj47

We really like our EL wahser/dryer and have had zero problems.

On the washer we usually add extra water to the cycles just to get a better wash and rinse. To tell the truth we haven't tried it without the extra water but we've heard people complain about other front loaders and that they wish they had the option to add more water.

We leave the washer door open when we're not using it so the door gasket dries out. Also we'll occasionally wipe the gasket and glass in the door with used towels as we put them in the washer and we haven't had any strange smells from the door gasket.

The washer uses very little detergent. I suggest you use less than recommended by Electrolux.

The dryer has been great too. I've used the steam freshen cycle to take the wrinkles out of clothes I want to wear but are not yet dirty (or not too dirty to wear!). This worked well. Our contractor and plumber scratched their heads at why we needed a water supply for the dryer...

The programming is super easy. My wife usually doesn't like programmable controls but after the first couple of tries she has not had any problem with them, or with the electronic wave touch controls on the Electrolux Icon double ovens.

Good luck!

Billy

Thanks Billy! I'm glad to hear that the machines are doing the job trouble free.

Cj

I just got the miele 4842 and while I have not washed a king sized comforter in there, I just can't see how it would fit and wash it well. I had a F&P ecosmart toploader before, and the miele takes about 2/3 of what that washer did. Maybe I am not stuffing it as full as I could, but everything I have read says to fill it about 3/4 full and that is what I have been doing. No way a king comforter would fit in there. Interesting that Germans often use two twin comforters on their larger beds, not one big king sized comforter like we do in the US. (and that is what we will do next purchase, just because one of us sleeps hot and the other sleeps cold and we can never get it right with our big comforter.) That said I am happy with the miele, but I mainly got it for longevity rather than features. I find it to wash/rinse better than my F&P, but it is probably comparable to my old whirlpool, pre-regulations top loader. Time will tell whether longevity was a good reason to spend all that money or not.

Rima_wa, thanks for your input. Two twins instead of one king--that's a good idea! By all accounts, Miele is built like a tank and lasts forever. I have several Miele appliances that work beautifully, including a 15 year old vacuum cleaner that still runs like new. I have no doubt the set you purchased will be running for a long, long time!

Cj