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practigal

Hot water?

practigal
9 years ago

There are a lot of posts on this forum about the necessity of hot water and getting a really HOT wash to sanitize things generally and in particular to remove stains. And if it all possible people want a HOT rinse. People are really upset about the reduction in temperatures of most washing machines. A hot dryer will shrink clothing and can destroy the finish on certain fabrics. Why won't a hot wash do the same? Is everyone who is using this forum wearing some kind of clothing that can take really hot water without damage? Nearly all of my clothing requires that it be washed in cold, lay flat to dry. If something were to be stained I can't imagine washing it in really hot water unless I intended to never wear it again. Sheets and towels are the only items that I am aware of that could take such hot water...and 100% cotton sheets will shrink. What am I missing? Why the desperate need for HOT?

Comments (25)

  • hvtech42
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm not into the "killing bacteria" thing, we humans are mostly bacteria anyway. Besides most home washers don't get hot enough to do a really effective job killing bacteria if that's what you're into. That said I like hot washes because they just clean better without needing as much detergent. It's not aren't the right setting for all loads, they're mainly useful for heavily soiled/white loads. I've never heard of a hot rinse, I don't see what purpose that would serve. I don't even really get the point of a warm rinse, which washers have offered in the past but most new ones don't. Another issue in my view is that the "WARM" setting on most new washers, even ones with heaters, is more of a "COLD" which could lead to worse performance than one might want on a normal load. As for the care labels on clothes, I'd take them with a grain of salt, especially on cottons. A lot of them just say "COLD" to cover their asses, where they'd really be fine with a warm/hot wash.

  • dave1812
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hot water for many of the white things.

    Hot water for shop rags.

    "warm" water in today's washers is a joke. So is the temperatue of the "hot" wash, unless you use a sanitize or other especially hot cycle.

    No one is forcing you to use warm or hot water, so relax, already!

  • Pyewacket
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It was a much bigger deal back in the days of washing machine soap that was ... well ... actually SOAP. I HAVE used a hot water rinse - and in fact my "modern" washing machine does have a hot wash/hot rinse option - back in the day, before they had "detergent" with "enzymes", and when water quality was a lot more variable than it usually is today.

    Things got cleaner the hotter the water was because that helped to keep the soap from forming scale or scum or whatever you wanted to call it.

    Nowadays its not such a huge difference, but it does often still make a difference. I ALWAYS wash whites in hot water, and I try to make sure that any load that has kitchen towels in it also gets bleached and a hot water rinse too boot. Underthingies get bleached at least once a month. And I never apply fabric softener to any load that has kitchen towels and cloths in it.

    Whenever possible I try to wash everything else in warm water, but every now and again somebody ends up with something in a dark or a red that bleeds in warm water, so I end up washing all darks and all reds separately and in cold water.

    You can get around the issue of no hot water cycles on your machine by turning the cold water faucet off. Select warm wash/warm rinse and you'll only get hot water.

    Just remember to turn it back on when that load is done.

    I assiduously avoid anything that thinks it can't be washed or has to be laid flat to dry. Most of them will go through the washer and dryer fine, albeit perhaps at a slower agitation speed or on lower dryer temps - if not, I don't want them around anyway.

  • hvtech42
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    >in fact my "modern" washing machine does have a hot wash/hot rinse option

    Which washer would that be? Just curious.

    >You can get around the issue of no hot water cycles on your machine by turning the cold water faucet off. Select warm wash/warm rinse and you'll only get hot water.

    This doesn't always work out so well with newer electronified machines that can detect when you're doing it.

  • whirlpool_trainee
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Is everyone who is using this forum wearing some kind of clothing that can take really hot water without damage?"

    I guess, at least in my case, the answer is pretty much: yes. My clothes are all cotton or mostly cotton, so they can take 140F washes and hot dryers without damage. Most dark clothes I have I wash at 104F, though, because they're not really dirty to begin with. Dark bed covers, underwear, socks etc. get washed at 140F for sanitary reasons/personal preference, though. I would not buy clothing that requires special care - my woolen suit being the only exception but even it gets washed at 104F on the Wool cycle and then thrown in the dryer for ten minutes on max heat to steam out some wrinkles before hanging it to dry.

    With regards to warm rinses: fibers swell in warm water, which makes it easier for detergent to be released. Spinning is also more effective with warm, opened fibers. Still, warm rinses have largely been extinct in the US and never really existed in Europe. Only two brands offer warm rinsing over here: some Miele AllWater washers (with cold and hot water intake) and certain LG washers with Medic Rinse (final rinse heated to 104F).

    Besides, when people still washed their clothes in truly warm or hot water, there was no need for cleaning cycles and silly products to wash your washing machine.

    About clothes shrinking in the dryer: I think most shrinkage takes place when clothes are over-dried and the temperature in the drum climbs higher and higher.

  • rococogurl
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think the OP has blended several discussions about very different things.

    The hot wash/hot rinse discussion. This turned up in a thread recently as the OP there owns one of the 240 v fully adjustable Miele washers and was trying to figure out if she would loathe the new one since it only provides cold rinses. This is a very fine point that does not apply to 99% of discussions.

    Hot water washing in general. This depends on the machine. To do a true hot water wash the temperature of the water must be 140F or above and that's achieved only by having an onboard heater. Some machines have onboard heaters; some do not. If the machine doesn't have an onboard heater the discussion is moot since "hot" will be house water heater temperature that ideally is 120-125F. In my front loader, f.ex. 122F is a very warm setting.

    Certain fabrics should never be washed in hot water. Those include anything with elasticizers. Wool, silk and certain synthetic blends can shrink or lose color in hot water washes.

    But everyone has their own ideas about laundry. I've seen photos posted here as examples of what to do that horrified me -- dish towels in the same load as underwear.

    The benefit of sharing what anyone does with laundry is only to give ideas/information to others to use/not as they wish.

    And there's a huge variation between top and front loader issues. And then variations from brand to brand.

    I'm a front loader person and a sorter. I've owned all 3 Euro-size front loader brands (Asko, Bosch & Miele) and so I'm able to compare performance.

    What someone needs really depends on what they wash. A new mom using cloth diapers really needs that super hot wash and would be happy with Asko's 190F or Miele's Sanitary cycles. I don't know what happens in top loaders or if any of them have heaters. Someone might provide that information.

    I have excellent 100% cotton sheets that get washed in 140F water weekly. They are all white/ivory. Some have color embroidery. I have never had shrinking or color fading. I don't ever use chlorine bleach.

    My dryer is adjustable so I don't overdry.

    Colored cottons get washed in very warm 122F.

    Darks, wools, silks, and athletic clothes which are fleece or techno materials all get washed in cold or warm (104F) with Perwool dark fixitive.

    Cotton lingerie & sleepwear gets washed in very warm 122F.

    Since my front loader has a high-speed (1200) spin, my clothes come out of the washer damp. I don't put synthetics, wool or silks in the dryer though I have a wool setting on the dryer that works very well. It par-dries -- I still need to lay sweaters out to dry.

    I created hanging space in the laundry room and hang up the synthetics and lingerie to air dry.

    Those are my best practices. Others have theirs. But I would never give up my hot water wash with cold prewash and cold rinse. DH is on blood thinners and occasionally there are blood spots on pillowcases. I don't need to pretreat. I just use the cold prewash with a small amount of Oxiclean followed by a hot wash. That removes everything.

    The most dramatic example of the effectiveness of that combination is a pair of DH's espresso coffee stained chinos which washed 100% clean. Photo evidence is on the link.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Miele Washing Machine Cheat Sheet

  • Don
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You can get around the issue of no hot water cycles on your machine by turning the cold water faucet off. Select warm wash/warm rinse and you'll only get hot water.

    This doesn't always work out so well with newer electronified machines that can detect when you're doing it.

    The way to get around this problem is installing a thermostatic mixing valve to supply the cold water side. This allows the cold water to be set at a minimum of 70 degrees or so.

    I would always add this valve when building a new laundry room in areas with cold tap water. I am considering retrofitting my plumbing with this valve. Unfortunately, future regulation may only allow "tap cold" water on rinses. I don't believe warm rinses are necessary, but it should not be ice water.

    Figuring out what temps machines are really using, especially with LG, is increasingly difficult. Adding steam to any LG wash cycle (on newer machines) results in a 140F wash. They don't tell users this fact. They want the user to believe that the increased cleaning that comes with adding steam is the result of the steam. They seem to have even fooled consumer reports.

    LG removed the actual steam generator from their washers beginning in 2012. Now they produce steam by heating the wash water.

    This also shows how LG understands the excellent color fastness of modern clothing. Most items can be washed at 140F when needed with little danger of fading.

  • Rault85
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @rococogurl, I remember reading that someone washed undies with dishtowels on hot (I believe) I don't remember who but I was a little grossed out too.

    @dondd, do you think the the new Kemore 41072, which is made by LG, is the same way? If so, I'll be adding steam to almost every load.

  • miele1966
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I will throw in my 2 cents on this. I am a huge hot water advocate and here is why: One, hot water cleans quicker. Two, hot water requires less detergent than cooler water. Three, hot water cleans fibers deeper than cooler water. Four, it keeps the washer clean, not to mention more hygienic and safer than bleach for fabrics. And five, I veryyyy rarely have to pre-treat stains. I wash probably 80 percent of my laundry in hot water (over 120 degrees). I do have a Euro Miele. The only things that routinely get warm (105 degrees) are jeans and darks. And even then, they will occasionally get a 120 degree wash, depending in the soiling. Cotton and linen can take up to boiling water. Synthetics like polyester, spandex, rayon, etc. cannot tolerate such hot water, maybe 120 degrees max. Synthetics need warm water to release wear wrinkles and open fibers. Too hot, you can permanently set in wrinkles. My house is a cotton household. I boil wash dishtowels that are washed at least twice a month that are still in use after 6 years. 100 percent cotton LL Beans sheets, washed at 140-155 every week. I have sets that are 5 years old. I do not wear cheap clothing, and I am never afraid to use hot water. My whites are blindly white, I never pre-treat stains, my linens look and smell clean without synthetic fragrances, and i have never had as much as a spec of mold in any washer I have ever owned. Rinsing on the other hand, is perfectly fine in cold water. Warm rinses are only necessary for those folks who use real soap to launder, rather than detergents.

    Regarding shrinking: More shrinking will occur in the dryer than a hot wash. Most US dryers get as hot as 160 degrees on high heat. That is already hotter than most peoples hot washes. Couple that with dry heat for 45-60 mins. and you have shrinkage. It is key to never over dry garments. I actually dislike dryers for this very reason. Washing fabrics does very little to damage/shrink fabrics when compared to what a dryer does.

  • rococogurl
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @andi -- that was actually visible in a photo posted to make a very different point.

    @miele1966 -- I agree with most of your post. My only caveat is that in the US, by law, "100% cotton" can be listed on a label but is permitted to have 5% of other material. Often that is elasticizer. So know thy cottons, for sure.

    I'm convinced elasticizer is the culprit in the T-shirt hole mystery.

  • Don
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @andi - You can look to see if the Kenmore 41072 has a steam port in the drum. If you can't find a port, it's producing steam by heating wash water. If it's heating wash water, its very likely 130-140F.

    It's easier to figure out water temps with LG because they claim to conform to certain industry standards. The Allergene standard requires a 131 degree wash. The Sanitizer standard requires a 158 degree wash. Kenmore doesn't seem to usually list these standards.

    LG makes a big effort to claim features that sound unique to their brand. Kenmore is more straightforward. But it's likely that in the major functions of the machines are the same.

    My hot water use:
    158F "Sanitizer" - Microfiber cleaning products and underpants (no, not together) I see no deterioration of elastic on quality underwear. There is probably some increased fading of black and navy after many washings. But underpants don't become heirlooms.

    140F - Cotton sheets and towels.

    My hot washing is usually Tide with color safe bleach.

    One nice thing about north american washers and our low power 110v heaters is that all hot washes are profile washer. With the right detergents, both the enzymes and oxygen bleach gets exposed to ideal water temps during the fairly slow warm up.

  • emma
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am not worried about bacteria either. If you aren't careful you can become obsessed with stuff like this. When my friend had a sick child she isolated him to his bedroom for days so it wouldn't spread. I could never have done that to a child of mine. I let them make a bed on the couch in the living room. She was so bad one of her sons picked up her habit and after a child of his was well he got to leave the room and his father washed everything including the walls. It's crazy and so unnecessary.

    I wash everything in cool water except sheets, I use hot for them. It's been years since I have been sick and part of that reason is I don't touch my face when I am out and about. The first thing I do when I get home is wash my hands.

    This post was edited by EmmaR on Thu, Dec 18, 14 at 19:48

  • whirlpool_trainee
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have seen one of these LG front loaders with TurboWash go through its steam cycle - most disappointing thing I've seen. The washer fills the outer tub with small squirts of water, never really applying the detergent to the clothes. It then starts to heat this puddle of water to generate steam. Even though there was only about a half-full load in the drum, dry spots were still visible 15 minutes into the steam cycle. I like the TurboWash feature... but the steam did not blow me away.

    Not sure how hot the Allergene cycle gets but it don't think - though I could be wrong - it is carries the NSF Allergen Removal certification.

  • practigal
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you for all of your posts. I have learned a lot. This has been a very interesting educational post for me.

  • Rault85
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I use the sanitize cycle pretty much everyday. I use it for diapers, whites, sheets and my work shoes. I have a 4 year old with medical issues and a simple, to us, cold germ can lead to a pediatric ICU stay for him so I have to be very careful about germs. I use the scrub exchange at work to turn in my dirties and get new, clean ones and pop my shoes into the washer as soon as I walk in the door.

    Does anyone use the Persil Hygiene Rinse?

  • enduring
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Andie2928, this link might help answer your question about Persil Hygiene Rinse.

    Here is a link that might be useful: automaticwasher site

  • CharterOps
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I wash about 90% of my clothes and all of my linens, towels in hot. I wash dark jeans in a mixed, heavy load and they don't fade or bleed. The only thing I wash in warm are delicate things like sweaters, sweater-vests, etc... I've found that the clothes do wash very clean and rinse well using hot wash, cold rinse and only using 1-2 Tablespoons Sears detergent. I used to love the Tide but the formulas keep changing, even on the Free and Clear formula.

    Inserting a coment from another article from beaglenc about suds.....the city water we have here in Knoxville, TN is always changing, so if you live in an area where KUB supplies your water, keep that in mind. In the summer, they use so much chlorine in the water, that almost bleaches your clothes alone!

  • rpsinfoman
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Adding steam to any cycle on the 41072 produces a 66C temperature. Once the machine hits 66 it cuts the onboard Heater and initiates a cold water addition of cold water as a cool down. Even using strictly a Sanitary cycle I haven't seen any temp higher than 66C. For a temp readout push wash temp and delay start simultaneously. Temp reads back in C in LED display.

    Also there is no steam port with this machine. It's generated by heating water. As another side note to 158F for Sanitary, the manual has a blip in it not to exceed an 8 lb load. Larger loads with a 1000 watt 120v heater won't see those higher temps in any reasonable amount of time with is model at least. It's all such a scam and mystery. Lol

  • Pat z6 MI
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I, too, am very grateful for the comments on this post, especially Miele1966. I learned a lot and thank all of you very much.
    Pat

  • AvatarWalt
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is perhaps a dumb question, but is wash water continually circulated through a heater during the wash cycle? I recall comments from other threads (though maybe only regarding steam?) that with a pile of cold clothes and a cold drum, the temperature would drop very quickly, and it'd certainly drop as the wash cycle went on unless heated.

  • grubby_AZ Tucson Z9
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    One simple question: is there a practical limit to what temperature you can set incoming house hot water going into a washer that's using one of those ubiquitous plastic double solenoid valves? This is for an old-school simple machine, a dial controlled top loader that has NO fancy sensors.

  • miele1966
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    AvatarWait--The heater is located under neath the wash drum. Between the inner and outer drums. After filling, the small puddle of water is immersed in the heater. What you heard about cold clothes, cold drum, and dropping temperature is very true. Front loaders fill with such little water that they sometimes barely clear the line of cold water before the hot gets there. Then you factor in a cold stainless drum and cold clothes. In my opinion heaters are a mandatory factor in any front load washer.

  • moviegeek
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @grubby_me,

    There are thermostatic mixing valves that mix hot and cold water, the bad news is you have to rip out the drywall and have a plumber install it for you. There's nothing you can modify on the machine itself to limit temperature.

    One simple solution: set the hot water inlet valve to about halfway open.

    http://www.watts.com/pages/learnAbout/temperingValves.asp?catId=

    Side note: my old fashioned washing machine is located in my garage where the temperature hovers around 55F in the winter, I have to use the warm water setting otherwise my clothes don't get clean. In the summertime my garage is 90F and the cold water setting is fine.

    This post was edited by moviegeek on Tue, Jan 27, 15 at 11:20

  • artemis_ma
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I use cold water to wash laundry. The exception could be towels and sheets. I got really tired seeing too many clothing items shrinking into unusability.