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Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Posted by larsi (My Page) on
Fri, Nov 12, 10 at 14:06

I emailed Miele Technical, and asked them about the W48xx Series onboard water heater. I told them I've read so much about testing with Kill o watt meters, the onboard heater only working for some cycles, but not for others, etc...

MIELE TECHNICAL confirmed with me, in writing the the onboard water heater only works when using the CUSTOM cycle options. Normal, Wrinkle Free, Extra White, etc...is heated 100% by your home's water heater.

I wonder what happens with Sanitize? Miele says the onboard water heater ONLY activates when using CUSTOM! Hmmmmm....


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Its sounds like you get some crazy answers too Larsi, Dont you have a Meile 4842 washer? Can you tell when it is heating or not?


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

That goes against everything I've read on here about "European" washers heating water up to optimal temperature.

What about maintaining a certain temperature? No way tap water stays hot enough with a cold drum and clothes in there.

I thought the “big deal” was to get an on board heater so depending on hot water tank hot wasn’t an issue and the machine would maintain an optimal heat through the washing process.

I see this as a pretty big strike against the Miele W48XX machines.

Now I must find out how the Bosch Vision 800 uses its heater. Why isn’t this information easier to find …


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Yes, I have a W4842. I've had 2 W4842 units and 2 W4840 units.

I too wondered what happens as the wash cycle progresses and the water temp dips. I use Custom once in a while, but in Custom, the Water+ (high rinse levels do not work). Water+ works in Master Care and the 6 Preset cycles on the main fascia.

@livebetter....Still, the Miele is THE BEST on the market. Stains, odors are removed and clothes are so soft, fluffy!


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Someone on here who has a miele, once said that the heater works in all the cylces but the normal wash cylce, thats how Miele gets its energy ratings, I just read the manual and there is no way that some of the water temperatures mentioned can and would come out of a hot water heater and be sustained through the cycle. Maybe this owner will see your post and comment on this devasting news Larsi just brought up. I mean if what she was told is true, no way would I spend the money on a meile.


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

I will speak with someone at Bosch to get the "real" scoop (hopefully) but this is what I read re: their internal heater:

"An internal heating element heats the water up to 180F while a digital temperature sensor continually monitors the wash temperature. Bosch Vision washers deliver the most efficient and accurate water heating method for each selected fabric type."

Somewhere else they referred to "a thermostat-controlled intelligent system" to heat the water.

Do the smaller Miele units work the same as the W48XX?? They really seem to have "skimped" on these units made for NA customers.


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

This is nonsense, as far as the W4840 is concerned at least. I use the Extra White cycle a lot, and always see the Kill-A-Watt meter reading above 1000 watts for some length of time. I just started an empty Wrinkle Free cycle with the temperature set to Hot, and the meter went above 1000 watts a few minutes after the cycle started. Most of the other cycles can't be set to a temperature higher than Warm. Once my hot supply pipe is primed, a Warm wash isn't likely to need the heater, so there's no point in testing those cycles, unless I turn off the domestic water heater and flush out the tank. Maybe I'll do that someday. In the past, I've let a Normal cycle run long enough to verify that it doesn't use the heater. As for Sanitary, I'm not going to bother, I don't doubt that it uses the heater.


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

@Suburbanmd...if the kill a watt meter shows 1000 watts after a few mins of the cycle start, what happnes 15, 20, 30 mins into the cycle? Does the W4840/W4842 maintain the temp? According to Miele, only the Custom Cycles use the internal water heater. Here is the actual response I got from Miele Technical:

"You are correct that the machine will use your water source for temperatures Unless CUSTOM is selected. The standard cycles all use the Hot water valve or cold water valve or a combination of the two to reach the cycles desired levels. CUSTOM cycles only will use the heater for your desired temperature. I hope this helps clear things up for you".

Thank You

Miele Email Services
11/12/2010 10:40 AM To Technical Service (Post-sale Customer Service)

cc
Subject Email to Technical Service (Post-sale Customer Service) from miele.com


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

I hope that's just a misinformed tech, rather than an "improvement" in the 4842. I cannot imagine that the Sanitize Cycle does not use the heater, so I suspect the tech was confused. The typical response when questioned about the lack of heat in "Normal" is being told to use "Custom" so you may have received a stock answer to a different, but similar, question.

I have the 4840 and a Kill-a-Watt and it shows that the heater does engage for me for temps above "Warm" through most of a cycle (other than "Normal"), although possibly not in the last 10 minutes or so. I haven't measured rigorously, so those are my impressions.

Additionally, oddly enough, the heater actually will engage during the "Heavy Wash" portion of a Normal cycle if "Very Warm" is selected.


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Larsi is my Miele hero. I have the 4842 thing too and I will never buy another brand of washer (or dryer.) I consider myself a curious person, so this discussion about "how hot" and internal heating elements is good fodder. Still, the three Miele's I've owned in the last 13 years have made me a customer for life.


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Larsi, I've seen what cawila described, on the cycles I mostly use (Custom and Extra White). In the beginning when I was watching closely, I did verify that the wash cycle was sometimes extended (by holding the countdown timer) when it needed extra time to heat the water. Wrinkle Free probably works the same way. The info you got from Miele is proved wrong by the fact that I saw the heater go on at all...unless they were talking about the W48x2 models only. Anyway, I don't understand why you don't have your own Kill-A-Watt meter by now :-) What does it cost, $24 or so?


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

The fact that a group of people could get so confused as to how this premium piece of equipment works baffles me.

Should this information not be readily available in the manual - or at the very least through contact with the company directly.

I mean ... it sounds like a simple question ... when does it use the internal heater ... sheesh ...

Even Miele falling down on customer service. What's the world coming to?? ;)


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Cut to the chase.....

What's the big hairy deal about informing consumers what the damned machines are doing? I've been reading about this stuff on various forums for YEARS!

Would the world blow up if consumers were allowed to know what their EXPENSIVE machines are doing?


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Yes this is nonsense. I have a A W4842 and if I pause the Whites program half way through the program by using the manual door release, steam billows out of the drum. Way...... hotter than my tap. It's always been my understanding that other than programs that don't allow hotter temps, Normal is the ONLY program that will never run the heater even if a hotter temperature is selected. It will only mix the incoming water to achieve that temp during the initial fill.


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Its was suburbanmd who orignally talked about the Heater and what cycles it worked on as he tested it with his meter. Larsi unfortunately got the wrong information, no surprise there. I am glad to know that Miele does heat the water on various cycles. The normal cycle does not use it, and neither does my HE3T. Thats where they get the Energy rating from and where CR test machines on. Not a fair test in my opinion because who would wash dirty whites on a normal cycle anyway....opppps some people do it, and wash it in cold water to boot...let me stop LOL


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

So running the Normal cycle on HOT, which is supposed to be 140°F, doesn't engage the heater? How are you supposed to get such hot water out of your tap when most hot water heaters are set to 120°F? Something doesn't smell right here - are we absolutely sure the heater won't work when Normal is set to HOT?


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Well, I'm glad that Miele was wrong. I mean, not happy that Miele Trechnical Service was so wrong about their own product, but my the sake of us W48xx owners.....happy our internal water heaters work on various cycles!

I stopped using the NORMAL cycle months ago. For most clothes, sheets and towels I either used WRINKLE FREE, set to Very Warm or CUSTOM set to Warm. For my son's bedding (and his bedding used for "naptime" at school)...I use EXTRA WHITE (although his bedding is light blue with Spider-Man on it...it comes out fine. Once or twice a month I do the Clean Machine Cycle (Sanitize) with either Bleach or a Tide Machine Cleanser packet or just run an empty cycle with Bleach and use CUSTOM set to Sanitize. My machine looks and smells awesome!!

I LOVE, LOVE my W4842 and T9802 laundry units. Also LOVE, my Miele 30" MasterChef Oven, Miele Speed Oven, Miele LaPerla Dishwasher, Miele Vent Hood and both Miele Vacuums. I do not even consider other appliance manufacturers. Several of my relatives in Northern Europe, have Miele appliances that are 15-20+ years old, and they look great and are still going strong and running healthy! Miele builds quality pieces, that stand the test of time.


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

I'll bet there's an international conference every year, maybe in North Korea someplace, where they all get together and see how confusing they can make it for Joe Average. Why be clear about what your machine does when having to guess adds so much enjoyment? Throw in a bunch of euphemisms to bloat the manual and there's your product. : )


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Get yourself a Kill-A-Watt meter and let us know what you find :-)


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Larsi, if you dont ever consider other appliance manufactures, then wgy did you bu a Electrolux set? YEs you did return it, but not only did you consider it, you bought it LOL. No pun meant by that


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

My post above was addressed to sshrivastava, of course.

asolo, clothes washer manuals in other countries are more informative than here. Look at Australian Miele manuals, for example. They have program sequence charts with details on water levels, wash rhythms, etc. Nothing on heater use, but I guess it's assumed.


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

"Nothing on heater use, but I guess it's assumed."

Exactly. And consumers have learned at their own annoyance and expense that it CANNOT be assumed. The mfgrs all do it differently and will not disclose unless specifically called and asked. No consumer is allowed to know what they're working with until they're home and living with it. Then they get frustrated and angry and post here wondering what the deal is. The simplest of household tasks is made a mass of confusion and mystery offered up on the alter of conservation.


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

I wish I could suburbanmd, but I can't reach far enough behind my machine to unplug it. I would have to pull the machines out to gain access to the outlet, and since I have slate floors with a slightly uneven surface, you couldn't pay me to pull my perfectly leveled washer out of its cave!


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

@ Suburbanmd & Sshrivastava.....

I too have a Kill a watt meter & have tested many things in the house (italian Cappucino machine, spare/extra refrigerator on the rear porch, old fashioned Coca Cola machine, Sub-Zero refregerator, etc...

But like Sshrivastava, I cannot reach behind my W4842 without having to physically pull it out and move to one side, to attach the kill a watt meter. Considering it took me weeks to get the machine and the pedestal base perfectly balanced/leveled (including an actual service call from Miele) on our hand tumbled travertine flooring...there is NO way I'm touching my W4842! Since Miele came out and properly attached the pedestal base to the actual machine, and then perfectly balanced my W4842....it is so quiet and balanced, even during Max Spin with an odd load (bath mats/rugs, jeans, my son's blankets...)


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Maybe you could ask Miele over here?

info@miele.de


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Firmware controls all cycle functions. Therefor, the version of firmware can be producing different results for different users here at the forum.

There is no way to compare user results and reports here as there is no means of benchmarking the firmware versions to accomplish this necessary baseline.

Since my personal washer has undergone several firmware revisions, uploaded by Miele Service Techs, it is hard to determine where the present firmware (in my washer) is at in the course of Miele’s firmware updates.

All of this is proprietary, and Miele does not list the changes in their firmware versions to the public so there is also the risk that any firmware version or revision in any Miele product has been superseded for a myriad of reasons, including having inadvertently left-out code that controls specific features. When Miele products go out of warranty, and customers no longer call Miele for service, said customers may indeed have a faulty software revision that the customer knows nothing about, and will no longer have the ability to update. This is a Miele shortcoming, and not a insignificant shortcoming.

This is where Miele, in my eyes, far pathetically short. The inability to simply download firmware revisions from Miele--even it entailed paying for said revisions--and then upload said revision into Miele products via a standardized USB flash stick is utter nonsense, and a hindrance to the end users of Miele products. Further, the nonsensical proprietary wireless module that is not only overly priced and overly designed, but a product failure on Miele’s part whereby a simpler solution would have proved a betterment to Miele’s products.

Personally, I would be happy if the hardware/software hackers’ were to arrive at a root for my Miele products whereby I could alter the firmware cycles to my liking. Since hacking a Miele motherboard is likely not a priority on any hacker’s shortlist we’ll all have to live with what Miele “thinks” is correct for its user base. The problem: Miele has all it wrong and not does Miele a disfavor, through not engaging its customer base. Miele would not only have better products, they would have happier Miele customers too.


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

sshrivastava said: So running the Normal cycle on HOT, which is supposed to be 140°F, doesn't engage the heater? How are you supposed to get such hot water out of your tap when most hot water heaters are set to 120°F? Something doesn't smell right here - are we absolutely sure the heater won't work when Normal is set to HOT?

I have a W3033 running a Normal Hot Extended cycle right now. It's plugged into a "watts up" meter.

It's nearly at the end of the wash cycle, I just opened the door and the water temp inside was 108F on an instant-read thermometer.

My hot water heater is right next to the washer and set pretty hot, around 155F.

Hope this helps.

So, yes, it appears that the heater does not come on during any of the "Normal" cycles.

Hot is the hottest temp you can choose with "Normal", "Sanitize" is not an option with "Normal."

This explains why Miele chose to label the options "Warm" Hot" etc instead of listing a temperature.

Normal Hot is not the same as Custom Hot, temperature-wise.


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

The Program Guide in the manual shows numeric temperatures. Normal Hot is the same as Custom Hot, as is true for the other temps available in both cycles. So the heater not working on Normal is still a bug (albeit intentional), not a feature.


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Jeez!!! Anybody want to build a machine that at least gives me actual cold/warm/hot on three cycles? That's all 99% of people want. Miele thinks I need to keep track of software/firmware updates for a damned washing machine? I've got better things to do. Doesn't everyone?


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Miele thinks I need to keep track of software/firmware updates for a damned washing machine?
Actually, Miele does not want you to be privy to their firmware updates. I posted with relationship to how the Miele W48XX works its cycles through firmware. If someone here has the same model and they are capable of getting hot water on a cycle that others cannot, then it is related to the firmware that user has in their W48XX.


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Hi All - Here is the definitive answer:

"The onboard heater in all Miele W48XX washers will operate if needed, in all cycles except 'Normal'. The heater operation will depend on the wash temperature you have selected along with the temperature of your incoming hot water. The 'Normal' cycle depends solely on the temperature of the incoming hot water. In all cases the machine will not allow the wash liquor to exceed the selected temperature."


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Well, thank you very much. And what, exactly, will the heater ACCOMPLISH in all of those cycles? How does Miele define "the wash temperature you have selected"? We're back to hot/warm/cold and what those words mean! What does "selected" temperature mean....hot/warm/cold? Again? What is it with the apparent industry-wide prohibition against disclosing temperatures in terms of F or C...so that normal folks can know what they're talking about?

This is really, really annoying.

So.....that's your idea of "definitive"? That's zip!

If I've misunderstood, call me out and clarify. As it is, you've said precisely nothing.


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Take it easy... Miele manuals show the temperatures in degrees Celsius.


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Seriously Asolo...chill out. I was just posting EXACTLY what Miele told me. As Suburbanmd said, the temps are listed in the Miele manual!!


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Called out and clarified?


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Yo Larsi....chill yourself. No problem here. Thanks to suburbanmd, I understand, now, the temps are published in the Miele manual. If you knew that and said so originally, I wouldn't have responded at all. But you didn't. My response to what you did post was appropriate.

Believe this may make Miele the only one that actually does this. Most posting about other brands say they have to call and ask directly.


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Bosch also puts temps in their manuals. This one is the Vision 800:

Cold - 60F
Handwash - 75F
Warm - 86F
Hot - 120F
Baby Care - 150F
XxtraSanitary - 170F


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

That's interesting, whirlpool trainee. Maybe I need to back off a notch.

When I bought my Duet five years ago, I had to call. With my Whirlpool dishwasher installed just yesterday, I had to call.

Also interesting that Bosch considers "warm" to be 86F. Throughout the SW, cold tap water is well above 60F. In the summer it's often above 90.


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RE: Miele W48xx Onboard water heater...Definitive Answer

Most washing machine manufactures do not post the temps that the appliance uses, except a few who I commend highly for doing so. The only reason I know what my he3t uses for water temps is because I got hold of a training manual that was giving to me from a GREAT sears sales lady. It is almost 10 years old and I am replacing it with a LG wave force. IF sears extended warranties were not so expensive, I would of bought again from her as she is the best sales person I have ever come across. I paid 75 bucks for my extended warranty, sears wanted in the mid 200 range for the same 5 yr contract....not gonna happed with my check book


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