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miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

Posted by buffalotina (My Page) on
Sat, Nov 24, 12 at 10:20

I just got my new Miele W3033 washing machine. I have been babysitting it through various cycles, temperatures and options. I had hoped my first post here would be a positive one - and that was how it was going - until yesterday's revelations. Yes, I know this only has a 110V heater, but I have no need of boil wash and my first experiments showed that the 60 C temperatures were reached just fine, albeit with longer wash times, the custom cycles, extended option selected etc...

Now I have discovered what may, for me, be a deal breaker. If I select WARM which is a 40 deg C wash, then the Normal, Wrinkle Free, Sanitary, Denim, Custom cycles all start the fill with hot water but the Handwash, Woolens, Silk and the Mastercare Delicates all fill with cold, which for me right now is around 13 deg C. The problem is that these cycles then don't get anywhere near the target 40 deg C before the wash is over - I am measuring the temperature of the wash water immediately as it leaves the machine. I have also run a Delicates cycle with COLD selected which should give me a 30 C wash but the exit water immediately after the main wash was only around 18 deg C. I ran a simulated handwash cycle with a 40 C target that ended at around 25 C. Today I ran a wool cycle, the entry water was around 13 C, the exit water around 32 C. When I measure the temperature of the exit water for the other types of cycles I do find that for the hot settings they are pretty consistent with the desired target temperature. Clearly the short wash times coupled with the cold fill behavior of these delicate, wool cycles etc are resulting in essentially a random wash temperature governed mainly by the fill water (cold). I am way unhappy about this because it is not even winter and my incoming cold water could get much colder than this yet (this is Buffalo.....).

Now, from the service manual:

2.2 Hot Water Intake Control
Hot water is taken in via hot water valves (Y12/2Y40) if a wash temperature above
104 F is selected.
Hot water intake is limited to 131 F during the enzyme phase.

104 F is 40 C which this manual implies that the machine should be taking in hot water. Therefore, I am wondering why mine is taking in cold for these cycles. I am not sure what the statement about limiting the water intake to 131 F in the enzyme phase refers to. Could it be that the machine has already learnt that my incoming water is too hot for it to use as an intake for these cycles? The user manual states that the maximum hot water feed should be 60 C and mine certainly does not exceed that.

However, this hot water intake would still not fix the problem that the machine cannot achieve even a 30 C target wash temp on these cycles with the cold fill and the manual implies that the cold fill is the default for that temperature, which does make sense.

I am very much hoping for input from Miele owners here, either W3033 or the larger W48xx series because I believe those larger machines have very similar cycles and options. I wonder if they are giving the warm wash.

I am going to run several more simulated cycles today (I am out of laundry now). Miele will be hearing about this on Monday. It is a deal breaker for me if it cannot get fixed. My old Bosch 2460 was able to run cycles like this just fine, and I ALWAYS used the powerwash button on that machine which allowed me to select a cold fill right from the interface. I never found that machine not to be giving me warm washes on the delicate, wool cycle etc. I admit I never actually measured the exit temperature but I was never concerned with the stronger heater. Those cycles were longer too, I suspect that machine was waiting out the time to achieve the proper wash temp. I am now wondering if I should not have somehow tried to repair my old one....but, too late.

Thank you all for any help you can give!


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

<<2.2 Hot Water Intake Control
Hot water is taken in via hot water valves (Y12/2Y40) if a wash temperature above 104 F is selected.
Hot water intake is limited to 131 F during the enzyme phase.

104 F is 40 C which this manual implies that the machine should be taking in hot water. Therefore, I am wondering why mine is taking in cold for these cycles.>>

It seems to me that selecting 40C wash temp should NOT cause hot water intake, because 40C is not technically above 104F- it's only equal to it. Choosing a temp of 50C or 60C should result in intake of hot water. Note that it doesn't say "at or above 104F." Germans are nothing if not logical...


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

Thank you. Yes, good point. I would look at it like that too except for all the other cycles I have tried, selecting WARM DOES use the hot water to fill. I am pretty sure the machine never opens both the HOT and the COLD valves together: ie it has to bring in HOT or COLD but not a mix at the same time. I am not sure if when it takes in hot it also alternates with bursts of cold, but at least some hot does go in on other WARM settings. Also, the heater does not engage in the Normal cycle so it must be a certainty that it brings in HOT on the WARM setting for that one (I am not using that cycle in any case due to lack of heater, posted here).

I am now running another test handwash cycle now on WARM with EXTENDED selected to see if it makes it further towards 40 C. I will then check again whether the other cycles (eg normal which does not use the heater at all) take in hot when set to warm.

The last couple of test handwashes I just ran did get further towards the goal temperature - made it to 29 C for settings of both COLD and WARM. That is about right for the COLD but still an undertemp for the WARM cycle. The delicates I did yesterday was way under temp for the COLD setting even. I will try that again today and perhaps add EXTENDED. Problem is that you can't always add extended - for example the wool cycle does not allow it.

Perhaps this can be worked around: I hope so because I want to say I am otherwise so far very happy with this machine.

Thank you!


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

I have a further update. I can confirm that selecting WARM with the NORMAL, WRINKLE FREE and CUSTOM cycles DOES use hot to fill. The Normal seems to use exclusively hot - makes sense as it knows it will not have the heater to help. The others I think alternated a bit of hot and cold. Brings me to the point that Miele says the ideal supply temp is 55 C.....so we already know that no way can the NORMAL cycle deliver their HOT setting which is 60 C. Especially as ALL cycles as far as I can tell start with a burst of cold down the porthole valve before filling via the detergent tray. But I digress, and that was known from my research here at the outset.

So, it appears that the HANDWASH, WOOL, SILK AND DELICATES are all using only COLD to fill when the WARM temp is selected, but the other cycles use HOT, at least to some degree.

Today's experiments confirm the following:
1. My cold supply is (today) ca. 12 C.
2. Handwash and Wool cycles set to WARM both fill with cold, the water level is up to about the gasket. Exit water temperature for those is about 29 C without extended option and about 37 C with the extended option. The wash time with the extended option is 10 min longer so it would seem that the machine does need the longer time to get close to the target temperature.
3. The problem is the DELICATES cycle. I just ran it on WARM with EXTENDED. The fill is cold but the water level is much much higher than for the handwash and wool cycles. Entry water was 12 C and exit water was13 C!!!!!!

Now methinks that maybe this delicate cycle is not using the heater at all! I would think the temperature might have climbed somewhat towards the temperature I see with the hand wash. I would estimate there is about twice as much water in the delicates as in the hand wash...so roughly maybe should see around a 10 C rise vs the ca 25 C rise I see with the hand wash cycle.

So, does anyone know if the delicate cycle uses the heater at all? Perhaps mine is programmed wrong?

I think this is all telling me I should have been much more concerned about having a 110 V machine.....My old Bosch 2460 added a lot of time to the cycle when the cold fill was selected, even on delicates, wool etc. And that was with the 220 V heater.....

I had expected any dissatisfaction with this new Miele to have come from HOT washes not reaching temp....but I have confirmed that even if I select cold fill only using the "secret" program menu that the hot washes do get to temp, albeit with extended wash times, custom cycle etc. I was reasonably happy with that. I never expected to have an issue with WARM washes not reaching temp!

As an aside, having stared at this machine for hours, it does not look to me like the delicate cycle wash rhythm or water level is THAT much different from the wrinkle free cycle. Therefore I guess the bottom line may be that I could use that cycle for high water delicates. Since the handwash and wool seem to be able to muster enough power to hit approx temp with extended option selected then that would be a work around too. Though in dead of winter here I wonder what on earth will happen when my cold supply gets colder...

Sorry for the long post....I want to love this machine. But now I am feeling that all the warnings out there about having to "game the machine" and the inadequacy of the 110V heater and the dumbed down options are absolutely right on the money. Not to say that the machine cannot be made to work OK....but certainly if you care about these factors then you cannot just use it blindly out of the box....

Thanks for any help!


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

Brief update: Wrinkle free is more aggressive drum action and water level much lower than delicates. Interestingly the machine adds more time to its estimates for the normal and the delicates (as well as others, but not hand wash or wool) when the cold water fill option is enabled. Weird as the normal mode is presumably not going to use that extra time to boost the heating...I am going to test whether cold fill on delicates somehow forces the heater on. I am pretty certain that cold fill with wrinkle free has no problem getting the water warm, but again, water volume is lower.


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

I think all Miele's are cold fill only on the delicate programs. If I recall, it is for the safe of the fabrics, so they would not get a burst of hot water while filling. Since your machine is only 110v, it is likely that the machine is not able to heat up to the proper temp before the cycle is over. Being that it is the more delicate cycles you seem to be having trouble with, I doubt that the newer machines extend times for heating to proper temperature.

I too, had a Bosch 2460. It was a great little washer. My sister now uses it for her family of 4. It is 11 years old now, and only had new brushes once in that time. The only repair. Due to the 220v of this washer, all temperatures could be guaranteed. Not so with 110v Miele's.


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

Miele1966: Thank you for your input. Yes, I think you are right about the cold fill on the delicates, and it makes sense. I am now also pretty convinced that the delicates cycle on my machine does not engage the heater at all which is ridiculous. The exit temperature of the water is the same as the cold that goes in. Have tried that several times now!

My old Bosch 2460 was great: I also had a new motor once due to motor brush wear. But then it seems like something went wrong with the control board and so it was just not worth fixing as that is such an expensive part. I am now second guessing my decision to replace rather than repair. I used it exclusively on cold fill with no problems at all.

Perhaps I should have gone Asko this time...or even Bosch again. But, I still think there is hope to be happy with this Miele. The wash action is great and the spins are very very smooth.


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

There is a programming option to manage the wash action of the delicate program. It is off by default.

MRB


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

Thanks MRB. I am liking the action of the delicates and its high water level. Just so far I am pretty convinced it uses no heat of any kind. I am not sure that is what it should be doing. I am hoping Miele will shed light on this, but doubt they will in fact.

I just found an older thread where Larsi who seems to know a lot about these Miele machines commented that the delicate cycle does not clean very well, that was on the 4842 I believe, but the cycles are similar for the 3033. Larsi recommended the wrinkle free cycle instead.

Overall I really like this machine and I am not convinced I would be any happier with the current Bosch/Asko offerings despite their 220V heaters. I just want to figure out what the various cycles are doing so I can use them wisely. So far it looks like delicates is out....


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

@buffalotina - FWIW, I only use the delicates cycle on our W4842 for washing golf hats and visors. My hats have brims, hubby's are baseball style. I haven't used it for anything else. The HandWash and Silk cycles seem very similar to me. Almost same water height, less tumbling action.


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

Many thanks cavimum. I may have overreacted to the results of that delicate cycle. I ran out and purchased the Kill a Watt meter now, since I seem to be so obsessed with whether or not the heater is engaging on this machine. So far it looks like if the heater is going to engage it comes on at around 5 - 6 mins. The heater does not come on at all in the delicates cycle. I think must be a mistake in the user manual because that cycle indicates options of up to 40 C. Your use of it for hats souds good: it has high water levels and really tosses things around. I may well use it with a "manual fill" where I dump hot down the drawer as it is filling.

I just tried your suggestion of the handwash cycle for my lingerie. I agree, the water levels are decent, but lots of rest time between the drum turning. The heater came on at around 6 mins and stayed on for the whole cycle. I can achieve an end temperature of 30 - 40 C depending on whether or not extended is selected.

I must say I am feeling much better now I have the meter to learn the cycles and that I can achieve heating in the hand wash! I think I might also investigate the dress shirts and/or table linens as alternate "delicate" cycles with heat.

Overall I think I am very impressed with this machine: the wash action is awesome, it spins very very dry despite the short spin times, spins are smooth and the motor is almost silent. A friend whose laundry I did this weekend commented on how nice it came out! I just think Miele should give us way more information on the details of the cycles, heater etc. I would also love a way to switch to cold water fill without having to change the program settings. I don't want to keep going into that menu so I think I will actually leave it on hot+cold fill for now. If I want a cold start I guess I can always turn off the hot faucet or do as was suggested by sshrivastava and start the cycle with COLD selected and once machine is filled up and on its way increase the temperature selection.

Many thanks to all for their help and input!


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

Update: I just tried the trick of sshrivastava: Wrinkle Free, selected COLD, let machine fill, then after full turned setting to WARM. After about 5 mins the meter shows the heater is engaged! As he advised, this is a "manual" way to force a profile wash on these machines. Now I have extended selected and my earlier experiments have shown that the machine does reach the 40 C setting because it is given enough time. This may even be a Euro style wash now!

It looks like one does have to "game" this machine, but with sufficient knowledge and a few work arounds I think it can be made to do almost anything!

I still intend to call Miele regarding the lack of heat in the delicates cycle. It would be great if there were some way for them to update the thing to allow the heater on in that mode...


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

@buffalotina - I have a chart I printed out that shows the number of rinse/spins for each cycle, whether there is a spin between rinses, etc. I found it online, from a UK site that had very similar looking models. So far, the info has matched up with what our W4842 does. I would like to have this info on the Miele USA site or in our owners manuals. But seriously, not every one is as obsessed interested in that sort of info. ;-)


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

@buffalotina - this is the chart I have regarding the cycles and rinses. IN another post (if this works) I'll post a pic of the chart of the tumbling action ('wash rhythm') for each cycle.


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wash rhythm chart

@buffalotina - this is the "wash rhythm" chart I printed out from the Miele UK site. I really do not know which model it goes with, but the types of cycles on this machine were quite close to my W4842. I imagine your 3033 will be very similar.
Hope this helps.


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

Cavimum: Sorry not to to respond to your posts sooner but I have been preoccupied this week. This is brilliant information! Thank you so much for posting those charts. I took a look at some of the downloadable manuals for the current Miele UK machines and I see that they all have this kind of detailed information. I agree with you, it looks like our cycles match up fairly well. In fact, I am gradually coming round to the view that the current US machines are not so very different from the Euro beasts, except that of course they do not offer the true boil wash. With a cold water fill, which I can easily force on my machine, I think the cycle is very similar to Euro. In fact Profile may be even more of a Profile, since it will take the heater longer to get to temp! So far I do not think the cold fill adds a huge amount to the wash time. The problem comes with the default cycles that are controlled by time rather than temp: you have to force the extended option in order to allow the heater to get to temp. I have not yet tried custom without extended....that would tell me whether custom is governed by time or temperature. Perhaps Miele might be persuaded to inform me on this point. I do so wish our US manuals had the info of the UK ones. Obviously they think us on this side of the pond do not care so much about our laundry. I am actually British myself and remember the days when we actually did a true boil wash...on top of the stove!

I actually have not done any laundry for the last several days. After my Thanksgiving laundry marathon I have been busy elsewhere. Today I did a load of cleaning rags and towels. Very dismayed to find one of my treasured yellow dusters completely shredded after the wash! I guess the wash action and/or the spin are just too much for its delicate makeup. I cannot believe how dry this machine spins the clothes. I am starting to think the MAX SPIN option needs to be used judiciously. But it also could be that the wash action is too aggressive. I wonder if it would be an idea to turn on the gentle wash action that MRB posted about? I see it as a menu option and indeed I do think this Miele wash action is quite a bit more agressive than that on my old Bosch.


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

@buffalotina - I figured you were busy and offline for that reason. I'm glad you enjoyed the charts. Better living through forums, eh? Never having a FL washer before in my life and being a research junkie on top of it, I wanted to learn as much as I could about our new machine so that I would understand how to use it.

I washed something in our FL that shredded, and I figured it was probably old and rotted out fabric anyway. Maybe I should have used the Hand Wash feature, but it was a pillowcase and might have survived the old TL. Maybe not. I just don't know. Perhaps the fact that the 100% cotton pillow case was 30+ years old (maybe it was 40+ years old) had something to do with it. Ya think? ~wink/grin~ EVERYthing else have come thru fine, though, and we often wear quite a few garments that are over ten years old.

After trying a variety of cycles, I find that my favorite is the Custom(is that what everyone means by "Profile" wash?) wash on Max spin speed. I always prime the hot water line by using the sink in the laundry room, so we always start out with a HOT fill. I'm no help on that issue.

I use the "Extended" almost always in summer because of the sunscreen and sweat on most all our clothing. In winter, we're indoors, no sweating in high heat & humidity of the South, no sunscreen, and we wear more dark colors. Therefore, our laundry doesn't need to be nuked quite so much and "Extended" is not engaged very much. Each person's laundry requirements are different, so YMMV.

That Maximum spin really does leave the laundry fairly devoid of excess water, but it makes certain fiber content clothing more wrinkled, thus requiring more aggressive ironing. I'm still learning, and those loads now get a High spin.


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

As an update, I finally got round to calling Miele regarding the Delicates cycle lack of heat. Of course they tried to blame it on user error. After a few back and firths between tech support and use and care departments they agreed to send out a tech to check the machine. Tech came out a week or so later and I was expecting him to confirm that the machine is in fact programmed NOT to use the heater in the delicates cycle. He said if that were the case he could reprogram it. However, he found a a heater fault and after a lot of fiddling agreed with me that it is not heating on that cycle, but that it should be. The heater is just fine in all the other cycles. He was surprised but said it needs a new control board! I am wondering how on earth there could be a fault that affects ONLY that cycle, but perhaps there are other variances I have not noticed. In any case, I am very glad I had Miele out as that really is an excellent cycle and I want it to heat the water! Due to the holidays and schedules of the tech and myself it is not due to be repaired until the second week of January. It is not that big of a deal, as long as that DOES fix the issue. I could also have called this in sooner myself but I wanted to be sure there were no other weird things happening and I had almost given up on it and was assuming there was an error in the manual.

I will update this thread after the new board is installed, with the results of that.

Otherwise this machine is washing just great. I am very impressed with it. Now that I have the hang of the cycles and options I am definitely getting better results than with my old Bosch Axxis. That was a pretty good machine I thought but I am happy I got Miele this time around.


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

Not to rain on your parade, but I can almost guarantee that after your new control board is installed, your machine will continue to behave in the same manner. Activation of the heater is controlled by software, and if it is activating in some cycles but not others then it is the software intentionally making that choice.

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think changing a control board is going to do anything unless Miele updated some firmware code on the board itself that cannot be updated in the field. But if that's the case then all of us have the same problem.


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

Many thanks for the input. So it sounds like your Mastercare/Delicates cycle also does not heat. Is that despite selecting a WARM setting? Yes, I have to agree with you, I think it is programmed to act the way it is. It does not seem very likely that there is a board issue and only that cycle is acting up. In that case, the temperature options on the machine itself and in the manual are wrong. The programming apparently does cover offering the heat options, but evidently does not engage the heater to actually carry those instructions out. My only hope is that the tech did say that from what he could see it is programmed to use the heater. However, he may have been saying that based just on the fact that the machine does offer the selectable temperatures when that cycle is selected.

I do hold out hope that the new board may be updated. If it is not, then at least this gives an entry into discussions with Miele about programming the darn thing to heat in that cycle. Though I am sure that would go nowhere...they are indeed quite arrogant at Miele Tech Support and are very anxious to blame the user. It is also difficult to get hold of anyone who has more than a superficial knowledge of the workings of the machine.

So, calling all Miele W3033 or W48xx owners: Can anyone tell me if they are able to get a warm wash on the Delicates cycle (the cycle that is under the Mastercare menu)? Thank you!


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

@ Buffalotina,

I rarely use the delicates cycle, so I don't know if it engages the heater. The only thermometer I have is a digital cooking thermometer that died a while ago. I was simply saying that it's unlikely to be a board issue. I come from a computer programming background. The machine's behavior in any given cycle is defined by a computer program stored in the firmware of the machine. The program code in any given cycle will call for the activation of the heater if so programmed.

In this respect, any cycle that activates the heater will do so in the same way. This is why it didn't make sense to me that the technician told you that the heater will accept commands from other cycles but not the delicate cycle. That is simply incomprehensible logic to a programmer. For the technician to be right, the heater would have to know which cycle originated the command and then intentionally discriminate against the delicates cycle.

What's more likely is that the Delicates program never activates the heater in the first place. If so, that is a programming issue and not something a board replacement would remedy. Anyway, I'm tuned in to see how this works itself out. I also wonder if Miele is open to making improvements to the program code despite the machines no longer being in production.


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

I happened to check the temperature on my W3033 during the delcate program. At the time, I had the machine programmed in COLD FILL ONLY mode. The water entered cold and the heater never engaged. So, I think the behaviour you are experiencing is normal. Perhaps not right, but normal!

MRB


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

Looking at the water level for Delicate and the 49 min. cycle time... I'm not surprised that the 120V hater can't heat the water to 40C. Not saying that it shouldn't at least try but I suppose it just wouldn't happen during the time given during the main wash.

FWIW, my Euro Duet will also only fill with cold on the Delicate, Wool and Handwash cycles. But its heater is powerful enough to compensate for the lack of a hot fill on these cycles.

Alex


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

Many thanks to all for the input and feedback!

@sshrivastava: Thank you for your thoughts. I totally agree with you that if the heater is not activating in the delicates cycle, and it most definitely is not, then it is because the programming is NOT calling for it to be engaged. Your comment that a new board would not supply new programming intrigued me. Since I had time before the new board was installed I decided I should push Miele Tech Support for more information because I did not want my machine ripped open without some assurance that the board would fix the issue. Or indeed that there ever will be a fix.....

@MRB: Thanks so much for your data point: Clearly it seems both of our W3033 machines are acting the same way.

@Alex: I take your point. When I use the hand wash cycle, which fills on cold, I cannot achieve 40C unless I also engage the extended option. That is what I have been doing. Obviously the 120V heater is to blame for that! But, the heater is at least on throughout the wash (I can see that from my kill a watt meter) and doing its best....:).

With all this in hand, I attacked Miele again and managed to get someone interested in the case. After explaining the situation several times I left the case with them and got a call back to confirm that the ONLY cycle where the heater does not engage is the NORMAL cycle. They absolutely believe that the heater should be engaging in the delicates cycle. I then had to go through a session where they tried to tell me the heater was not coming on because the machine was filling with a mix of hot and cold and so did not need the heater.....But, the point I think they are missing is that the delicate cycle ONLY fills on cold. It fills cold and comes out cold...

So where it now stands is:
1. Miele tech support has confirmed with engineering that the delicates cycle SHOULD use the heater.
2. Tech support says that the firmware is on the board, not somewhere else in the machine. They think there is a possibility the new board would fix the issue but I think after extensive discussion they also suspect it will not. In as much as they don't believe my firmware is outdated or anything.
3. I am going ahead with the new board install tomorrow, via my local Miele Tech. I will be amazed, but happy, if that fixes the problem.
4. Miele corporate are sending out a tech who works on their professional/commercial products. He is going to be in my area and they want him to come over after the new board is in to take a "data dump" from the machine so they have data to analyze in more detail in NJ. They also want the old board back to test it in one of their units to see what is going on.

I am now glad I have their attention. I agree with the feelings here that the new board will likely not fix the problem. But, since I have it clearly from my tech and Miele central that the heater should be working in that cycle it seems there should be some hope that a fix could be obtained. I have reviewed the manuals of numerous UK models and all give temperature options for that cycle.

I may say I am actually quite impressed that Miele is sending out this additional tech. When I first called in the issue I had tech support push me off to use and care, telling me it was user error. After my last conversation I thought that I would just have to wait for the new board to be installed and then call back in myself with the results. I did not believe that they were taking it seriously. However, the person I have been dealing with clearly has been doing something behind the scenes because I got the call today that this additional tech is coming.

I will post an update tomorrow on the results of the new board install. After that there may be further updates from the central Miele tech who is supposed to come by on Thursday. It will be interesting to interview him regarding the location of the firmware/programming and whether or not that cycle should be heating....


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

And all along, I was under the impression that the cycle would pause until the temperature of the water reached its target. Guess that is not true with Miele either.

MRB


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

@Whirpool trainee: Do you have some document that gives the cycle time for each program? That information is not in the user manual. I can find it by selecting each cycle and writing it down....but I would love to have a reference guide that actually gives that. My old Bosch Axxis manual did supply such information. I am now trying to store endless information about the cycles on this machine in my head...

@MRB: I recall reading somewhere, and I have not verified this is true, that for the cycles on the FRONT of the machine, selectable by a button, the wash time is governed entirely by the cycle time, not whether the heater achieves temperature. Certainly the WOOL cycle at WARM (40C) does not reach temperature with my incoming cold right now and the cycle time is not extended automatically to account for that. You cannot select extended for WOOL, but you can for handwash....in the latter case the extra time, in my experience, allows the heater to achieve the goal. For most of the other cycles I think the wash time is long enough to achieve temperature, as long as the machine does a hot/cold fill. If using only cold to fill then there may well be an issue getting up to sanitize temps for example, during the cycle time. In most cases I am using an extended wash and a hot/cold mix fill so I do believe the heater is basically adequate for most scenarios. But yes, you are right, it certainly SHOULD extend the cycle time to let the heater achieve temperature.

I think I will quiz the Miele central tech on that point: I have asked tech support whether or not cycles are governed by TIME or TEMP, and have not received clear answers. The service manual does say that the machine will throw a F20 heater fault code if the temp. is not achieved during the cycle time. My machine is showing that "fault" right now, no doubt because wool cycle that I have used does not achieve temp in the short time:

From the service manual:

F20: Heater (R1)
Symptom
The fault is not indicated in the operating mode.
Poor wash results.
The suds are not heated up.
Long running times.
Cause
The target temperature is not reached before the thermo stop time.
Heater R1 is defective.

I think I have read somehwere that the CUSTOM cycle will extend the cycle time long enough to achieve temperature...I think I may have seen that behavior when I used high temps and a cold fill on custom: the cycle time gets extended as the wash proceeds. But custom uses pretty low water levels, albeit with an extra rinse, and is quite aggressive in the wash action, I have found.

@MRB: Youn mentioned earlier in the thread about the Gentle Action setting. I have now engaged that setting because I do believe for my needs, using mostly extended cycles, that the gentler wash is just fine. I am seeing very little difference in the wash action with the Gentle Action option turned on. I think it might be a little gentler in the Normal (which I do not use) and Custom programs. I think the other programs it does not affect. The Miele UK manuals say the Gentle Action option only applies to Cottons and the equivalent of our Wrinkle Free cycle. I believe the Cottons is the equivlent of our Normal and Custom.... I think I will ask the central tech about that setting....it is quite possible in our machines it is not actually doing anything. I do not have a lot of faith in the programming of this machine at this point. Annother setting which does not seem to have a visible effect is the Maximum Water....I will try to get an answer on that too!

Many thanks to all for input.

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele UK W5000 WPS Manual


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

No, I can't find such a document. I have the service manual for the large 4840 washer but it doesn't state anything about the cycles. Doesn't even mention in which cycles Maximum Water Level or gentle Action is available...

Alex


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

My service documentation indicates the gentle action option only effects the delicate program under Master care.

MRB


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

I'm not sure if this has any bearing on anything, but remember that COLD on the Miele is actually 85 degrees. That means it is likely also mixing hot water when it fills. Cold-only fill would require you to select NO HEAT, not COLD. The default for DELICATES is COLD (85 degrees).


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

Many thanks mrb and sshrivastava for your staying power on this thread! I apologize for the delay in my update: I have, like many others, been suffering from the flu.

Well, at this point, let me take back my praise of Miele tech support...I am now actually pretty ticked off with them about the situation. Though I might as well chill out...it is only a washing machine.

So my local tech (who is a tech like mentioned on another thread here, contracted by Miele, not actually Miele corporate) came out on Wednesday and shot in the new board. I told him that Miele was sending out a senior tech the next day to take data from the machine and asked that he leave the old board with me since they wanted it back at HQ. He is a very nice fellow and was fine with that. Needless to say, no big surprise, as predicted here, the new board is actually exactly the same as the old board on the delicates cycle......

After my local tech left I called and left a message with Miele to apprise them of the situation and giving them a heads up because my tech implied that perhaps their factory tech could reprogram the machine in the field. I was hoping the senior tech, if he knew ahead, would then be able to change the behavior of the delicates program. Very late in the day I got a voicemail message from the person at Miele who had been handling this, with all kinds of cover your behind language, saying that the service call from the central tech was now cancelled. They had now gone ahead with testing of the machine at Miele and their machine is doing the same thing.....filling on cold and no heater for delicates... DUH!!!!! I was furious. I had expressly told them, after numerous phone calls, waiting on hold, being told it was user error etc., that I did not want to rip my machine open unless it was clear that the program was not acting correctly. They swore up and down it should be heating on that cycle. I guess it is as everyone is saying...Miele tech support is now reading from the manual/script, and treats customers as idiots. The only reason I was talked into going ahead with the board replacement was that they promised this senior tech was coming by and i felt like I had their attention and that would lead to an opening of discussions to get this resolved.

So yesterday I called Miele and got the person I had been dealing with. I let him know that I was extremely unhappy, especially with the fact that they pulled the service call from me at the last moment and that I had been telling them for over a month exactly what the machine was doing. Why noone could be bothered to verify it before now is completely ridiculous. I am now told that the issue has been turned over to the engineering dept. I have demanded that a supervisor or someone senior call me because I still do want to follow this up. However, since they are now muttering rubbish about this being "by design"...which is essentially a copout since it is very clear from the manual that the cycle should be capabable of a warm wash at least...I doubt it will go any further. And of course they are only saying this now after a month of swearing up and down that the machine should be giving a warm wash and using the heater..

@sshrivastava: I take your point about Miele COLD. I should clarify, on handwash, wool and delicates, the machine takes in ONLY from the COLD valve. Therefore, the COLD fill for those cycles is not 86 deg but whatever temp your incoming cold water supply is. Right now it is around 10C in Buffalo so my washing is ridiculously cold. On this point, pretty much if Miele wants to fix this cycle they would have to allow the machine to fill on a MIX of hot and cold, if ever to achieve 40C. The delicates cycle uses a LOT of water, which is its great appeal, and there is no other cycle like it on the machine. The 110V heater would definitely not be able to get that much water up to 40C in the wash time allotted for the cycle.

My suspicion is that the delicates cycle on Miele has always been designed to fill only from the cold water valve, but with the old 220V heaters it was not a problem. I suspect that something was changed in the programming when Miele went to the 110V machines in the US. In any case, I told them right out it was not by DESIGN, but clearly a MISTAKE.

So now I think I need to chill out about this. I have absolutely no intention of releasing my spare control board so at least I have that in reserve if I ever need it. I the mean while I think I have found that the dress shirts program could be used in lieu of delicates. The wash action is not quite so gently and the water level not as good. However it does use the heater. Therefore, as the machine fllls I can dump in a few extra pitchers of warm water manually down the hatch and let the heater take it from there....it is better than nothing. Doing this with the actual delicates cycle itself is useless I have found because the heater doest not engage at all. Therefore even dumping hot water straight from my faucet (over 55C water) down the hatch results in a pretty cold wash after you take into account heat loss due to the mass of the drum and the wash time.

So I think the bottom line is that there are at least two useless cycles on this machine: Normal (no heater) and Delicates (cold only). I also think wool is pretty much useless in that WARM is not achieved by the heater in the cycle time and that cycle does not allow the extended option.

@MRB: Thanks for your info about the gentle cycle. Here is what my service manual says:

2.2.2 Gentle Cycle
Setting for gentle cycle.
Selecting the gentle cycle reduces the drum movement. Fabrics are washed
gently.
For lightly soiled laundry.

It does not say anything about which cycle it affects. So far as I can tell it is not affecting my delicates cycle. However, I am leaving it engaged because all the cycles look aggressive enough to me, even with it enabled. I would not be surprised if it is not actually doing anything....


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

I wonder what would happen, if you went into service mode and set the machine for another Country Version? I know Jerrod, a former member, set his LaPerla dishwasher to EUR mode and got different cycles. I wonder if this would apply to the W3033 as well.

Alex


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

@ Whirlpool,

If you do that on the the big Mieles, all of your cycles will default to something like 30 minutes. The non-US functionality is broken.


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

@ Buffalotina,

While I still can't address the heater issue, I can tell you that Mastercare/Delicates does take in water from the hot tap. I just started a MasterCare/Delicates program set to WARM. I let the drum turn a few times while full of water and empty, then canceled the program to drain. There was condensation on the porthole and the inside of the machine was quite warm to the touch. It's 30 degrees outside right now, so if it was filling from purely the cold tap it would not be warm and steamy inside the machine.

I don't know if the heater is working, but the machine is definitely filling with WARM water when set to WARM on MasterCare/Delicates. I know this is a dumb question, but have you checked your hot water line to make sure it's open and working, and that there is nothing obstructing the water flow? Have you also checked to make sure your taps haven't been switched by mistake?

I surmise from your messages that even when set to WARM, your machine still fills with cold water. Mine does not do that - it fills with WARM water per the temp setting. We are both talking about the Delicates program in the MasterCare menu, right? Or are we talking about a single button-press cycle like HANDWASH?


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

@ Buffalotina,

I realize that we have different machines, which could account for the differing behavior. I have a W4842.


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

I know the big Miele washers won't accept anything but the US country version, since these models were exclusively made for your market. Over here, they are sold as OctoPlus models for commercial purposes and have totally different cycles. The LaPerla is sold here, though, so it makes sense that there is an alternative programming stored on the computer. Likewise, the small washers are sold internationally so there might be a small, probably very small, chance that a different country version might change something.

This post was edited by whirlpool_trainee on Sat, Jan 12, 13 at 13:11


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

@sshrivastava: VERY interesting info re your delicates cycle. Yes, I am talking about DELICATES under the MASTERCARE program....not a single push button cycle. My hot and cold supplies are fine: every other cycle is fine too. And as I say, AFTER my new board fiasco, Miele finally confirmed that their machines are doing the exact same thing. For me it is very easy to tell which valve is open because you can physically feel the vibration in the supply hose as the machine fills. Confirmed wtih tech support too, only ONE valve at a time is ever open. So a hot/cold mix fill results from alternating opening of the hot and cold fill valves on the machine. Confirmed by me and the local tech, only the COLD valve opens to fill the machine for MY delicates cycle, even when WARM is selected. That is also true for wool and handwash, The cold valve stays open until the machine is full. Then wash commences with NO heater! Heater DOES engage for handwash and wool, though the cycle time is really too short to get it fully up to temp in the wash time with my current cold supply temp. Thanks so much for your info: you are lucky!!!! I am going to forward that info to Miele, in case they do actually care about the mis-programming of the W3033. As I said above, the only way for this cycle to work properly on WARM is to have it fill as yours does, with a mix of hot and cold water. Heater alone (110V) will NOT be able to heat that volume of water to 40C in the wash time....

@whirlpool_trainee: Thanks for your input. I guess I could try say the Euro country setting....wonder what would happen. But on one of my phone calls to Miele they threatened that if the problem was due to me having "messed up the settings", for example the country code, in the programming menu then I would be responsible for the service call charges. As a warning to others: if you need service from Miele under warranty, under no circumstances should you tell them you have been into the programming menu. Never mind that I seem to know more about that menu than them....:).


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RE: miele w3033 delicate, wool, handwash not reaching temperature

Hi, I have a w3033, at the "normal" cycle the heat will not turn on unless you select a prewash. In this case it will reach the temp. you select. This is for the energy star deal so the machine "can show" to the testers that it is cheap to run it.
Also Delicate cycle will not turn on the heat element due to the watts power not enough (1060 W). For the rest it is working fine. For a woolens cycle the best temp is 30º C and 2 rinses to keep wool intact. After all it is a great machine =)=)=)


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