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uluvbs

Clothes are not so soft -- Need laundry advice, please!

uluvbs
13 years ago

Hi, all.

I've just moved to London, UK, and have a Bosch front-loading clothes washer.

I washed some dress shirts last week (using Persil non-Bio) and assumed it was the detergent that made the shirts feel not-so-soft afterwards.

Today, I washed some linens with Ecover detergent and the result is the same: my towels and sheets feel rougher now.

In the past, I have never used fabric softener and don't want to now. Any idea what the likely culprits are?

(I washed both times at 60C/140F temperature, if that matters.)

Thank you.

Comments (96)

  • westvillager
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    suburbanmd: You are correct about my primary residence (I sound like the census form). I do have a 10 year old Miele washer and condenser dryer in my apt. But otherwise, yes, if my towels go into a too hot dryer, they come out rough.

    Personally, I've used many different types of machines and I've only noticed rough towels when they've been cheaply made or using "that row" of scorch boxes in college. :) Is snapping towels an old wive's tale? I do it but I don't know why.

  • mara_2008
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have towels I bought at Macy's, Belk, Sears, JC Penney's, and Walmart (all were bought on sale). They all come out soft and fluffy when I wash and dry them.

    I ordinarily use 1/2 c. baking soda per full load when I wash them. I do not use fabric softener on towels; I use 1/4 - 1/2 c. of white vinegar in the FS dispenser.

    Our water is not hard nor soft; our local water department says it is medium.

  • susanlynn2012
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I had to buy a whole house water softener due to the hard water I have but I also use fragrance free detergents that are HE and I do two extra rinses (first one by pushing a button after the regular wash included in the longer cycle and the second rinse cycle by doing another cycle using the rinse and spin cycle) and my towels on high in my Whirlpool Duet Dryer come out soft and dry.

  • andersons21
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have tried baking soda, and vinegar, separately and together, and they did nothing to soften the towels.

    We don't know that the OP's problem is different than my problem, and I don't think it is. It is not like we know that the OP has the hardest water in the entire world. My water varies from extremely hard to mildly hard to almost soft at different times of year. The range of measurements varies by 100 TIMES. If hard water makes towels so much stiffer and scratchier, why would I not notice any difference throughout the year as my water source/hardness changes?

    I know that there have been other discussions about towel texture. I have already done a search and read them. But frankly I didn't find any solutions.

    I am not ruling out that hard water is more problematic in a FL for some reason, but the detergents I've used already contain a lot of ingredients specifically to soften hard water. And I've tried baking soda and vinegar. So far in my experiment, what's helped the most is using more water, shorter agitation time, and slow spin. Basically, parameters that make the FL act more like a TL.

  • sshrivastava
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think FLs are much more sensitive to water chemistry because there is so little water - whatever you put into that water is so much more concentrated. If you're not using enough detergent, the concentration of soil in that small amount of water is very high and it will settle back onto clothing and wash parts. If you use too much detergent, you will have difficulty rinsing. If you experience color bleed, the concentration of dye is much higher in a FL and your clothes will be more impacted.

    Now, all things being equal (that's the key), if your towels are coming out softer from a TL than a FL, we need to narrow down the variables. I'm curious, if you take these "rough" towels and wash them in a TL, does the softness return? One recommendation I can make is to try washing your towels in a FL without any detergent. Do you see suds? If so, you may have build-up that needs to be removed.

    Depending on the chemicals used in the laundry products, they will either hold hardness minerals in solution or force them to precipitate out of solution. If your detergent has a precipitating softener, you may also notice a white-ish film on your drum or washer parts. Precipitated hardness will definitely end up back on your clothes.

    Usually products like Charlie's Soap, Country Save, and other "natural" and non-toxic products will contain precipitating softeners in the form of sodium carbonate (wash soda). Non-precipitating softeners may be in the form of various phosphates or phosphonates, citrate, citric acid, etc.

  • amsunshine
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Interesting discussion. So, Sshrivastava -- if one didn't want to use phosphates or phosphonates as a softener, citrate and/or citric acid would be superior substitutes to something such as borax or sodium carbonate? (or even baking soda)?

    Also, Andersons -- forgive me if you've already tried this, but Cheryl Mendelson recommends soaking in vinegar and hot water for about 15 minutes to rid clothing of hard water buildup. I know you said you've tried vinegar, but have you soaked? Just thinking out loud, but it seems like I need to soak my shower doors in vinegar to get rid of the hard water deposits -- it takes some time. I know that's a bit different material, but maybe kind of the same idea?

  • Pat z6 MI
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    sshriastava's mention of precipitating and non-precipitating softeners above prompts me to share the following two items from C. Mendelson's 'Home Comforts' book. (I end up giving a pitch for Wisk laundry detergent at the end which makes me yearn to be on their payroll).

    "Nonprecipitating types (such as Calgon) sequester the offending minerals and hold them in solution; the water remains clear. These usually contain polyphosphates. Precipitating softeners combine with the minerals to form a precipitate or residue that trns the water cloudy. The precipitate can stick to clothes or your washer. Precip softeners usually contain sodium carbonate (washing soda) or sodium sesquicarbonate (TSP and borax)."

    "If your water is only moderately hard you will probably need to do nothing more than use enough of a good detergent that contains water softeners. But in this case it would be better to avoid detergents that contain carbonates. The unpleasant potential effects of using a carbonate detergent if you have hard water include STIFF, HARSH TOWELS; FADING, DULLNESS, DINGINESS, OR GRAYING: A WHITE POWDERY RESIDUE ON DARK CLOTHES, reduced wrinkle resistance in perm-press clothes; increased abrasion; and BUILDUP OF A CRUST IN THE WASHER."

    End of book quotes.

    Sooooo, after I read that, I tried to find a detergent that did not have carbonates, and the only one I found was WISK. The water softener in Wisk is listed as sodium citrate. I'm in heaven but I've only done one wash and will have to evaluate more. I do know I LOVE the very slight scent, which rinses right out without an extra rinse.

    I also forgot to mention a few dozen posts ago that my wash water drains into our sump pump, so anything that help from clogging up that pump is a plus. Nonprecipating ANYTHING sounds good to me.

    So, do you love me, or what?

  • nerdyshopper
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have been following many threads here and other forums and have come to the conclusion that this problem is caused by our efforts to save the environment. We have first developed machines that clean using very little water as compared to former top loaders. We even resorted to computer controlled water rationing in newer machines. Then we eliminated all phosphate from our detergents. we also spin the clothes as fast as only a front loader can so our dryers don't use as much energy to get the clothes dry. So I think you will never find a solution to your problem with a modern front loader and probably very few top loaders either.

  • sshrivastava
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @nerdyshopper: I couldn't disagree more with what you just said. I think you are drawing a false correlation between cause and effect. I have a front loader and have perfectly soft, fluffy towels. So my experience would immediately disprove your hypothesis. We're all entitled to our opinions, but without proper testing and elimination of variables, you can't really know what's causing the problem. Especially when others who have front loaders are not experiencing these issues.

  • nerdyshopper
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm sorry, I do know that many here are trying to be helpful. I just got fed up with condescending replies that try to be helpful by saying that the poster hasn't done his homework.
    As for front loaders, I don't believe that many posting here have ever lived in the era when good top loaders were available. I owned a Whirlpool bought in about 1973 that was a true workhorse. When I had to replace it in 1992 the Whirlpool design had already been "corrected", I suppose for economic reasons. So if you weren't an adult in the early 70's you never experienced the best of American machines. Top loaders have suffered the most from the pressures of the global economy combined with government regulations attempting to save the environment.

  • asolo
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Top loaders have suffered the most from the pressures of the global economy combined with government regulations attempting to save the environment."

    With regret, I must agree with you.

    "I just got fed up..."

    It's very much the nature of public forums. Take a deep breath and don't worry about it. Along with the annoyance, there's lot of good info that pops up.

  • mara_2008
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    As for front loaders, I don't believe that many posting here have ever lived in the era when good top loaders were available. I owned a Whirlpool bought in about 1973 that was a true workhorse ... So if you weren't an adult in the early 70's you never experienced the best of American machines.

    There are some here, I know (I'm thinking cynic is one).

    I bought my first washer (a GE Filter Flo) in 1973, and it was excellent. Most people say Maytags were the best washers back then (and I'm not saying they weren't great washers), but it's hard for me to believe any washer was better than my GE Filter Flo, lol.

  • nerdyshopper
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My first washer was purchased in 1955. It was a Norge and it was a rotten design. The only feature unique to it was a hose system that let it pump the wash water into a stationary tub and then siphon it back for another load after the rinses. Talk about energy savings. The pump failed many times because the seals were made of pot metal and Tide corroded it out. I kept fixing it for 8 years and then got a GE too. Good washer that lasted 12 years and a seal went out on the trannie and let black oil come out of the agitator. Then I got a Whirlpool and our really great experiences started.

  • sshrivastava
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We will never go back to the same quality as long as we ship all of our manufacturing and jobs overseas. Back when machines were built well, we were not so obsessed with dividends, profits, outsourcing, etc. Look how far we've come. The US is already dependent on the rest of the world for labor and products, and we are already well on the way to having all of our nation's wealth bound up in less than 5% of our population.

    Rome is burning.

  • andersons21
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    sshrivastava, you use fabric softener AND have whole-house water softening. You can hardly rule out the FL factor when you’re using fabric softener, which has a huge, dramatic effect on fabric texture.

    If ANYONE here has “eliminated the variables,” it is me. I changed NOTHING AT ALL except the machine. I have stacks of the same towels (same brand, age, fiber, color, etc) washed in the SAME detergent, SAME water (however hard it may be), and dried in the SAME dryer on the SAME heat setting...how much more controlled do you think it can get? The resulting towels are not just slightly different; they are dramatically different. I don’t even like towels to be overly soft, hence have never used fabric softener on them, but these FL-washed towels are unacceptable, so I need a solution.

    Because of the discussion on other threads, the first variable I manipulated was the amount of detergent. I already discussed this in posts above. Tiny amounts, full doses, it doesn’t matter, towels are stiff either way. With tiny amounts of detergent, they’re stiff AND still dirty.

    A lot of people here seem convinced that hard water is the culprit. I do know that with hard water, it is more difficult to get things clean; you need to use more soap/detergent, different detergent, or additives that prevent the minerals in the water from inactivating the detergents. Almost all laundry detergents contain these softening additives, usually as the most dominant ingredients.

    But although hard water makes cleaning more difficult, I do not expect hard water to have a big effect on fabric texture or softness. A small effect, maybe, but not a big effect. Why? Well, first, my water hardness varied over 2009 by over 1000%, from soft to extremely hard. Yet I noticed no difference in the texture of my laundry over the year. If there’s a difference, it’s not big enough to draw my attention. If water hardness is making the towels stiff, I should be noticing big changes when my water district water source changes. Second, if hard water is the culprit, then why would I get much softer towels washing and rinsing them with many MORE gallons of hard water in the TL?

    Nonetheless, I did a little experiment to feel the effect of hard water on a towel’s texture. I found a small towel in the cabinet that felt soft. I dissolved 1280 mg of calcium carbonate in 150 mL of water. Calcium carbonate is the main mineral responsible for hardness. I soaked half the towel in the hard water, wrung it out, and let it air dry. The result? I cannot feel any difference between the 2 sides. If I hadn't made a note of which side I soaked, relative to the tag, I would have no idea. If anything, the calcium-soaked side feels slightly SOFTER.

    So I am certain that hard water does not cause stiff, scratchy towels.

    (Now just in case someone reports that they notice softer fabrics when using a water softener -- that may be true. I did NOT test the effect of softened water, just the effect of hard water. Whole-house softeners substitute other minerals for the hard minerals, and those other minerals might make fabrics feel softer, I don’t know. Softened water feels “slippery” so probably makes fabrics feel softer/more slippery.)

    At this point, the most likely factors are inadequate rinsing and high spin speed forces. I’ve already tested the rinsing, though my results might not be conclusive because I later realized these detergents create hardly any suds, so it may be impossible to see if any detergent remains. But based on the experiences others report, high spin speed forces seems by far the most likely cause.

  • sshrivastava
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dissolving calcium carbonate into solution and then air drying is not the same thing as having it form a precipitate with the addition of wash soda. Once you add a precipitating softener you end up with a substance similar to soap scum. The same material that forms a ring around your bath tub. That becomes difficult to wash away once it has penetrated the clothing fibers.

    Also, andersons, I have been washing all of my clothes without fabric softener for the last few years and have only recently started using it again. Clothes are soft either way, but a half shot of fabric softener helps prevent wrinkles in very large, congested loads. I've also noticed that less lint is generated after using liquid fabric softener. As far as soft water goes, a whole house water softener actually makes it more difficult to rinse detergent out of your clothes. That's why you feel slippery after a shower or washing your hands. The softening process changes the electrical charge of the water, thereby making detergent more attracted to your skin or clothes than the rinse water surrounding it. My washer compensates for this by substantially increasing the rinse levels.

    Now that you seem settled on the spin speed being the issue, it doesn't look like it's due to the machine being a front loader. From what you said, it sounds like you're getting good results by lowering the spin speed. This actually gives me a good idea... My machine spins between each rinse at full throttle. I usually spin my towels at 1,200 RPM, perhaps eliminating the intermediate spin and lowering the final spin to 600-800 may give me towels that literally float out of the machine!

  • andersons21
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I tested the effect of detergent residue by dipping a soft towel into a solution of different cleaning agents and DISTILLED water, as well as the cleaning agent + calcium carbonate + tap water. I started with borax. Most of the liquid laundry detergents I've looked at include borax as a builder/softener. (In case there are any scientists out there, this is a fully-crossed design that can show if there is an interaction between calcium carbonate and the different cleaning agents.)

    Well, borax residue makes the towel rough and stiff even with distilled water.

    I cannot feel any difference in the degree of roughness and stiffness between borax/distilled versus borax/calcium carbonate sides. If anything, the calcium carbonate side feels slightly softer.

    But the difference between borax versus the non-borax calcium-carbonate-only sides is dramatic.

    Sodium carbonate also leaves a towel rough and stiff, and this is another common ingredient. It is also >50% of OxiClean.

  • stbonner
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think Patann is on to something. I too have had problems with stiff and scratchy towels since switching to a FL. Now, let me say that I LOVE my FL and have no intention of going back to a FL machine, but I would like my towels to be softer. Anyway, I have found that if I use Oxiclean my towels seem more stiff. Also, when I use Tide or Persil my towels are a bit stiff and scratchy, but when I use Vaska detergent my towels are nice and soft. So, in my limited experience, detergent choice makes a big difference in softness of clothes.

    I may have to check out some Wisk when I go to the store next.

  • andersons21
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This may be true, but it is 100% an issue of rinsing out all the detergent. It has nothing to do with hard water minerals or the formation of precipitates or soap scum. You can use any detergent if you can get it all rinsed out.

  • amsunshine
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "...when I use Vaska detergent my towels are nice and soft."

    I'm very interested in Vaska -- but I can't seem to find a whole ingredient list. On its website, it has an msds sheet that lists:

    D-GLUCOPYRANOSIDE, and
    C-10-16 ALKYL, OLIGOMERIC
    ALCOHOL ETHOXYLATE

    I think it has more than 2 ingredients in it -- but I can't find what the other ingredients are. Anyone have a clue?

  • suburbanmd
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's the Vaska "Scent Free" ingredient list. It isn't really scent-free -- the lavender extract sure does leave a smell.

  • amsunshine
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks, suburbanmd -- I've seen that list. It's not really clear, though -- what exactly are the "plant based surfectants" and what is the "vegetable conditioner"? What is the "water soluble degreasing agent"?

    Aside from that, though -- since you have it, do you like the detergent? Does it suds a lot? Does it rinse well?

    Thanks!

  • suburbanmd
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    amsunshine, I guess one of those three ingredients doesn't qualify to be on the MSDS, and the other two are matched up with the chemical names on the MSDS. Take your pick :-)

    Can't report much about the Vaska for a couple of reasons. First, my main reason for buying it (for darks, because no optical brighteners) is mainly of interest to my kids, both of whom are at college now. Second, I don't like the lingering scent, though I'm sure it's laughably weak to the fragrance-loving crowd. In my limited experience, it didn't seem to suds a lot.

  • stbonner
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    amsunshine, I've been using Vaska for a while now, and I really like it. For my husband's really grubby "play" clothes I do use Persil, since those clothes are often a real challenge. The Vaska cleans well, though, and I personally love the smell. The only thing I think it doesn't do well is oily spots, and Persil is the only thing I've found that really does a good spot with that.

  • stbonner
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I meant to say that Persil does a good JOB with oily spots. Oops.

  • westvillager
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I wonder if the OP deduced what made her clothes rough.

  • amsunshine
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    suburbanmd and stbonner -- thanks for the replies. I guess I'm going to have to get some Vaska to try for myself!

    I, too, am curious about whether OP solved her stiff clothes/towels problem.

  • andersons21
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am still not sure of the exact cause of my stiff towels in the FL.

    I wondered if detergent residue from inadequate rinsing could be causing the stiffness. So I tested the feel of detergent residues in towels. I mixed solutions of 6 different detergents in either tap or distilled water. I dipped half of a new, soft washcloth in a detergent solution and let it dry. Then I judged how stiff each washcloth felt and how much residue I could detect. I blinded my feel test by including a clean washcloth and by making judgments before I looked at the detergent label.

    Results:
    - Tide HE Liquid/distilled: no change in softness or stiffness; no feeling of residue
    - Kirkland Free & Clear/distilled: no change in softness or stiffnes; no feeling of residue
    - Woolite Dark HE/tap: softness is almost the same; but slight feeling of slick/waxy/soapy residue on surface
    - biokleen All-Temp Liquid/tap: slightly less softness, more stiffness; no feeling of residue
    - Gain HE Powder/distilled: noticeably more stiffness, less softness; some feeling of chalky residue on surface
    - Clout commercial powder/tap: OUCH. extreme stiffness, no softness; extreme chalky residue on surface.

    I did not test all possible combinations of detergent and type of water for reasons I won't go into here.

    Nonetheless, even if a concentrated solution of liquid detergent dries on the towels, it doesn't make them stiff or scratchy. Unless you are as picky about soft towels as the princess-and-the-pea was about mattresses (I am not), you would never notice there's a detergent residue with the liquids. It's kind of interesting that plain borax leaves a stiff residue on towels, but Tide HE liquid, which contains borax, does not.

    Since the FL uses much less water to rinse, I'd like to know if some detergents rinse out more easily than others. But I have not thought of a good way to test rinsability. Normally I'd rely on seeing suds, but some of these detergents barely produce any foam. I thought I might be able to taste a detergent residue, but some barely have a taste. So I judged by feel, although this is probably not a reliable test either. I rubbed each detergent solution on my hands, and counted the number of times rubbing my hands together under running water till they felt rinsed. I repeated the test 3 times on different days in a different order each time.

    Tide HE Liquid/tap: 3-5 X
    biokleen All-Temp liquid: 8-12 X
    Woolite Dark HE: 10-12 X
    Kirkland Free & Clear liquid: 12-15 X
    Gain HE Powder: 18-22 X
    Clout Commercial Powder: 50+ X (never really feels rinsed)

    But I do not think the "feel" test is accurate for the powders, because I think the high pH of the sodium carbonate affects the skin barrier and makes it "feel" not rinsed even when it must be. Among the liquids, though, Tide was significantly the fastest to rinse away.

    So what I have learned is that powder detergents (Gain, Tide, Clout) can leave a stiff residue if they are not rinsed out. But since my stiff towels were washed in Kirkland, which does NOT leave a stiff residue, there must be at least one other cause for the stiff towels.

  • andersons21
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Tested 2 more combinations:

    Tide HE Liquid/tap water: NO CHANGE in softness or stiffness; no feeling of residue
    Tide HE Liquid/super-hard* water: NO CHANGE in softness or stiffness; no feeling of residue

    *super-hard water = 1280 mg calcium carbonate dissolved in 100 mL tap water.

    However, the feel of rinsing changed quite a bit in the tap and super-hard waters. It took more like 16-20 rubs to feel that my hands were rinsed, in both solutions, compared to 3-5 in the distilled water.

    Once again, a concentrated solution of liquid detergent (Tide HE) and hard water minerals (calcium carbonate), allowed to dry on a washcloth, has ZERO affect on the softness/texture. There is NO DIFFERENCE in the feel of the residue cloth and a completely clean, new cloth. I cannot tell them apart without reading the label.

  • livebetter
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I can also say that, when using Vaska, clothes/towels are definitely softer (with no added fabric softener).

    It was one of the first things I noticed when I did laundry with Vaska. I couldn’t believe how everything felt coming out of the dryer. I have no time for any kind of “scientific” tests to explain this but I know from experience it’s true (for me anyway).

    I use the Lavender version and find it leaves a barely noticeable scent. I’m not a fan of overpowering fragrance and Vaska doesn’t bother me at all. In fact, I love its very “herbal” smell - like the true South of France (not P&G’s version). Towels and sheets smell heavenly (IMO).

    As for oily/greasy spots, I have Method with Smartclean unscented and I squirt some on the spot and launder … almost always gone.

    I use Persil Sensitive for some things (mostly kids’/hubby’s clothes) and laundry is not as soft when washed with it - even though it contains aloe vera “beads”.

    Many detergents leave something behind. It’s the way they are designed. Most leave behind optical brighteners and in the case of my Persil Sensitive - aloe beads. I wonder … do OBs keep building up or do some wash away and new ones stick with each wash? I sense that they build up which is why over time dark colors look faded.

  • ellenpm
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Anderson, Perhaps my experience of the past 5 years can help. Like you, upon using a new washer (a TL, in my case) I suddenly had scratchy towels. Then other clothes and linens became rougher and rougher. I did a lot of research and many trials. I eventually decided that the original problem was that the new machine was incapable of rinsing decently. (It was a Maytag Atlantis.) But by the time I figured it out, I had many layers of detergent baked into my clothes. I first tried reducing detergent amounts, probably too much, which I later decided probably caused mineral build-up, in addition to detergent build-up. To get rid of the build-up, I had to strip all my items, using a very tedious and time-consuming sequence of hot vinegar/baking soda wash solutions, hot vinegar rinse solutions, etc. (I also got rid of that washer.)

    Here is what I would advise, short of going through that stripping: Be aware that many newer washers wash and rinse at lower temperatures than older washers did. Since cool water deflates suds, rinse water may look clear in this cooler water; but if you run the same load through a warmer wash or rinse, you may see suds. (Of course, this depends on type of detergent.) So the first thing I would recommend is that you run your towels through 3 to 5 sequential washes with no detergent in the hottest water on your cycles. Do not put it through rinse cycles, which are cooler; just wash/spin/wash/spin/wash/spin. If it looks well-rinsed, dry it. Dry on low heat, since this washer extracts more water and compresses loops more that your old one did. And if you can pre-soak the towels before you start, even better. If your problem is detergent residue, this may be enough to solve your issue.

    Other advice: Definitely use extra rinses. Your detergent is much more concentrated now than it was in your old machine. You need to get it out. My impression is that the minerals only attach in the wash phase; any subsequent rinses will not add to the build-up. (Someone correct me, if I am wrong.)

    It's much better to have a little too much detergent (which can always be rinsed out), rather than too little, which may cause hard water mineral build-up, which might then have to be addressed with the stripping.

    Wash and rinse in the warmest water your various loads can tolerate. I will only use cold rinses in the summer, when the incoming temperature is in the 70s.

    If you can raise the water level somewhat, it would be worth a try.

    By the way, I agree that using phosphate (in STPP)would probably solve the mineral problem. My mother taught me to add Calgon in every load, back when it had phosphates, just so the water would be softened. But this time around, I didn't want to add any chemicals.

  • sshrivastava
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @andersons: What I find interesting is that those items soaked in a powdered detergent solution suffer from stiffness while those soaked in a liquid detergent solution do not. This goes against the grain of the typical advice you read around here, which is that powders dissolve and rinse better. Your results contradict this assumption, and I find that very exciting!

    Can it be that liquid detergents are better at achieving softness than powdered detergents? The hypotheses makes sense. Andersons, if you dissolve a teaspoon of powdered detergent in twice as much water and let it evaporate, I'm guessing you're left with a powdery substance. Based on your results, I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that if you repeat the above with liquid detergent, you'll end up with a waxy or smooth substance. I accidentally spilled a little liquid detergent (just a couple of drops) on the top of my machine and in a few days it dried into a wax-like material. If that's truly the case, leftover liquid detergent residue in your clothes will dry into something rather smooth versus something rough and scratchy with a powdered detergent residue.

    Could it be that they key to having soft towels in a front loader is to use liquid detergent?

  • sshrivastava
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I came across some interesting information from the makers of Country Save detergent. Here are images taken from their web site, conducted by a laboratory, to show the amount of undissolved solids in various detergents. Of course Country Save is shown in the best light, but contrary to that I can tell you that it's a poor excuse for a detergent. Washing in Country Save is like washing in plain water. Charlie's Soap is a little bit better, but not by much.

    Country Save
    90F, 130ppm, 100 R.P.M.

    Bi-O-Kleen
    90F, 130ppm, 100 R.P.M.

    Seventh Generation
    90F, 130ppm, 100 R.P.M.

    Tide
    90F, 130ppm, 100 R.P.M.

    Ecover
    90F, 130ppm, 100 R.P.M.End of Report
    I'm sure some of these undissolved solids end up back in your clothes. What's particularly surprising is how much crud is on the Ecover and Seventh Generation swatches. Tide comes out looking pretty good in this comparison if you discount the Country Save swatch - they paid for the test, so obviously theirs will be the cleanest right? :)

  • mr_wash
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi all,
    After following this thread, I would say that I found that liquid detergent makes clothes and especially towels feel softer. I tried different powders, spin speeds, water plus and extra rinse options and came to this remedy.
    I use liquid detergent to wash my towels at 60 degrees, I add some liquid Napisan (similar to Clorox 2) if washing white ones as liquid detergent don't contain any bleaching agents and some conditioner in the final rinse. I notice the feel more if line drying the towels, if I tumble dry the towels washed with either feel the same but a slight tick softer with the liquid. I have a Miele washing machine and have had no build up whatsoever.
    Regards

  • livebetter
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I found this informative site yesterday. See what they say about scratchy fabrics:

    Problem:
    Stiff, harsh fabrics
    Colored fabrics look faded
    Increased fabric wear and abrasion

    Causes:
    In hard water, some powder detergents can combine with water hardness minerals to form a residue.

    Solutions:
    Add 1 cup (240 ml) of white vinegar to 1 gallon (3.8 L) of warm water. Use a plastic container. Soak item and rinse.

    Preventative Measures:
    Use a liquid laundry detergent or use a nonprecipitating water softener with a powder detergent.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Clean Living Institute - Laundering Problems

  • livebetter
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    More on water softeners (I'm still wrapping my head around all this information):

    "Packaged Water Softeners
    These are chemicals which help to control water hardness. There are two types, precipitating and non-precipitating.

    Precipitating water softeners include washing soda and borax. These products form an insoluble precipitate with calcium and magnesium ions. The mineral ions then cannot interfere with cleaning efficiency, but the precipitate makes water cloudy and can build up on surfaces. Precipitating water softeners increase alkalinity of the cleaning solution and this may damage skin and other materials being cleaned.

    Non-precipitating water softeners use complex phosphates to sequester calcium and magnesium ions. There is no precipitate to form deposits and alkalinity is not increased. If used in enough quantity, non-precipitating water softeners will help dissolve soap curd for a period of time."

    Here is a link that might be useful: hardwater.org

  • dadoes
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    To clarify for people who may not fully understand what is a precipitate, it's particles of residue ... basically clouds of dust wafting through the wash water ... that settles-out onto clothes and machine parts unless effectively rinsed away.

    Being as virtually all detergents nowadays are phosphate-free, precipitates apparently are part-and-parcel of the "modern" washing process, unless one adds a separate non-precipitating water softener.

    STPP, anyone?

    I've been adding STPP for over two years, and my clothes have never been better. I use softener for for a light fragrance effect on selected loads, but dose is small so the softening effect is minimal.

  • cryptandrus
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I kinda hate to say it (because it probably is bad for the environment in most places) but dadoes is right about STTP.

    I learned about it here on this forum, and it's worked wonders for us, laundry-wise.

    STTP basically makes any brand of detergent work better--if you have hard water. For laundry and in your automatic dishwasher, too.

    Fabrics are super soft, too.

    It does work best in warm to hot water, though. STPP doesn't seem to dissolve well at all in cool water.

  • fabbric
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Will Calgon be as effective as STTP? I'm having difficulty finding bulk STTP in reasonable quantities in Alberta plus the wholesale suppliers don't return my calls.

  • livebetter
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ingredients in Calgon Powder:

    Zeolite
    Sodium Sulfate
    Sodium Maleate-Acrylate Copolymer
    Aqua
    PEG-200
    Polydimethylsiloxane

    Ingredients in Calgon Gel:

    Aqua
    Sodium Citrate
    Polyacrylic Acid
    Xanthan Gum
    Parfum
    Methylisothiazolinone
    Benzisothiazolinone
    Colorant

    Someone will have to chime in as I do not know whether these softening agents are precipitating or non-precipitating.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Reckitt Benckiser Product Information

  • Pat z6 MI
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sodium citrate is non-precipitating. That is why I will use Calgon liquid with the detergents I want to use up before I only have Wisk left, which has sodium citrate in its own (newer) formula.

  • andersons21
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sodium citrate/citric acid (same thing) is in practically every liquid detergent I've researched.

    Yet I know that precipitates and hard water did NOT cause my towels to feel stiff and harsh. I got this stiff result after ONE wash (so, no "buildup" possible) with a liquid detergent (Kirkland Free & Clear) that by itself, or with hard water minerals, feels soft even when not rinsed out of the fabric.

    1) I used exactly the same detergent and the same hard water in my TL; towels came out soft.
    2) My experiments have proven that hard water alone, or hard water plus liquid detergents, even when completely left in the fabric and allowed to dry, do not leave the fabric feeling stiff

    Now, powder detergent (Gain, Clout) and cleaning agents (OxiClean, borax) not rinsed out DO leave fabrics feeling stiff. But this was not what caused my towels to be stiff.

    Fabrics with liquid detergent residue not rinsed out all feel soft. (Woolite, which contains a lot of soap, also feels slightly, well, soapy. NOT stiff or scratchy, though.)

    After rinsing though, SOME liquids leave fabrics feeling softer than others. The ones that leave fabrics feeling softer contain "fabric conditioners." "Fabric conditioner" is another name for "fabric softener." These work by leaving a residue behind -- a soft-feeling residue.

  • Pat z6 MI
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    andersons, can you recall the names of the detergents that have sodium citrate in them?

  • fabbric
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I just bought a new box of Calgon Powder and the MSDS on the RB Canada site sates 15-40% STPP and Carbonic Acid/Sodium Salt 60-100%.

    I will make do with this until I find a supplier of STPP locally.

  • livebetter
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Gosh ... I just realized my link for ingredients was to European info (duh) ... can you post link for Canada? I can't seem to find it. Thanks!

  • fabbric
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    North American info...note that the US Calgon seems to be phosphate-free.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Reckitt Benckiser North America

  • Aplus2
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I just came upon this discussion. WHen my husband and I got married, I gave up my Maytag TL bought in 1977 for his HE FL Whirlpool. And not only my towels but all my clothes come out stiff and scratchy. I had very soft towels made with bamboo, I had very soft cotton TShirts, and they're all now like cardboard. I wash the towels in hot water and high spin but I wash the tshirts i cold water, shorter cycle and low spin and never put them in the dryer. I use liquid detergents, the same I used with my TL. I have tried using less detergent to no avail. My husband and I argue about this because I think it is something in the washer that changes the fabric or the softness and he thinks it's my imagination. Anderson, I am with you on this... and I want to know if you ever found a solution. After reading all this, I will try using an extra rinse cycle and see if that helps. And I may try putting a little vinegar in.

  • sshrivastava
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Aplus2,

    My Miele instruction booklet mentions that stiff clothes are a symptom of insufficient detergent. Depending on how much you are currently using and your particular water hardness/chemistry, you may need to use more instead of less. Experiment on both sides of the dial to see what works. Also, try increasing your water levels and lowering the spin speed.

    While front loaders are gentler overall, they aren't particularly good at keep towels fluffy if you don't follow the right steps. Due to the extremely small amount of water, a front-loader is especially susceptible to issues relating to detergent quantity.

  • omeyer2220
    8 years ago

    For all who said that hard water isn't the reason you are most likely wrong! I am in school and recently we were forced to choose a science project off this weird website. I chose one and completed not. My experiment was testing the hardness of water . there is a difference. Water that is hard is mineralized water that is soft has the least amount of minerals possible. My suggestion is that if you want certain articles of clothing to be softer, hand wash them in a mixture of 1 part distilled water and 3 parts tap water. And of course , soap. Good luck!

  • Pat Z5or6 SEMich
    8 years ago

    Glad this was bumped up. I forgot everything until I read this again. Thank you, omeyer.