I'm simply amazed to read this. AFAIK, P&G makes Cheer and Tide (as well as Gain and even other detergents).

I've used Cheer HE before with no such sudsing, but it's been a couple of years. Sounds as though they've changed their formula.

Did you contact P&G about it? If you let them know you've posted this info at online site(s), they may be motivated to do something about it -- at the very least, contact you and send you some coupons or something.

BTW -- is the Cheer powder you buy an HE formula?

Welcome to my world, @larsi. Unless I use 1/4 the recommended dose of anything, liquid or powder, as Miele phone support suggests, my rinses are full of suds even when the wash has no sudsing. The rinses are killers. Getting a bubbly-suds-free final rinse in my W4842 is a challenge.

I wonder if the bottle you bought might be mis-labeled, since you don't have this problem with other products?

I've often wondered why they recommend liquid detergent. The Comforters cycle is long enough, and I have erroneously used powder detergent in cold and warm water settings, in this cycle, with success.

As for Express, I get that. It's so short there may not be enough time for a powder to dissolve.

Vaska and Tide he liquid can give me way too many suds in the rinses as well. For some reason Tide Total Care he rinses very well (must be the addition of fabric softener that kills the suds or the use of different surfactants or amounts of them). I actually really like regular Tide he liquids for towels, sheets and dirty kid clothes, but it can suds more than I like during rinses! Smells so good, and is excellent at almost all stains!

Cheer no longer makes an he powder (and it was very short lived, and seemed to only be at Sam's Club for some odd reason). The Cheer powder does not suds much at all, and rinses seem very clean! It has almost no smell though, which I know is a very good thing for many of you. It smells great in the box, but after rinsing and drying, there is actually (to me at least) NO scent. That's a big negative for me.

So far, for liquids....it is hard to beat Persil Color Gel, Tide Total Care he (which I used to hate, but now think is honestly excellent) and Method Fresh Air & Peony Blossom detergents. These 3 seem to always suds very little, clean beautifully and rinse super clean with minimal suds. Clothes always feel, smell and behave so frseh, soft and great!!

Unless I use 1/4 the recommended dose of anything, liquid or powder, as Miele phone support suggests, my rinses are full of suds even when the wash has no sudsing.Huh?? This I would have to see. How many rinses (plural) are involved? What could be the source of sudsing after the detergent solution is gone to the drain and presumably at least two (or more) fills of fresh water are flushed through? I'm wondering if people are sometimes mistaking bubbles/froth in rinses as being caused by detergent residue when something else is the source.

@dadoes - I don't remember which machine you own. My Miele W4842 doesn't give a good hard spin between wash & rinse cycles (like my old TL did) and doesn't even spin (just drains) between wash & rinses on some of the cycles like Delicates. Centrifugal force would remove a lot of the wash water and it isn't there. I sometimes wonder if that lack of good hard interim spin is part of the issue with my 'sudsy' rinses.

I usually use the Wrinkle-Free cycle (for everything except whites that get HOT water in the Extra White cycle) because it has a higher level of water in the rinses--->up to the bottom of the glass on the door.

If I see any form of bubbles residue on and under the gasket at the end of a cycle, I assume that is detergent suds, and run a Rinse/Spin cycle to flush it out.

Seriously, I could use some input here, as we're new to FLs. Are there supposed to be some froth/bubbles ---in between the clothes as well as on water at the glass--- during the final rinse? I often see a single layer, no taller than 1/2 inch, when I use more than a 1/4 normal dose.

Talking with Miele on the phone isn't like I can send them a photo, and they say I should not see any bubbles in the final rinse -- between the garments nor on top of the water -- which seems like it should be that way. I really haven't a clue, as this is our first FL.

AND re: the froth/bubbles --- really, please explain as I would truly appreciate it. This FL uses so little water in the wash cycle that I never see a sudsy froth during the wash --- only the rinses. Last week I washed a queen-size matelassé bedspread on the Wrinkle-Free cycle (for the higher water level rinse) with a 1/3 normal dose of detergent. With each of the three rinses, there was more and more of this sudsy froth (but more than 1/2 inch thick). When finished, I ran a Drain/Spin on Max spin to get all the water out, then a Rinse/Spin to flush out the rest of the bubbles. I honestly don't know if it's detergent or what.

@ Cavimum

Rinses in my W4842 often produce more suds than the actual wash. The reason is because rinses have a slightly higher water level in most cycles, or a substantially higher water level if you have "Maximum Water Level" selected in the service menu options. This increased volume of water causes a corresponding increase in agitation. More water means more splashing, more water sloshing around, and more suds being generated. If you have truly soft water, it may take as little as one part per million of detergent to cause bubbles, yet the clothes are properly rinsed.

If using 1/4 the recommended amount gives you clean clothes and minimal sudsing, I say use what works. I notice that Tide HE w/ Bleach liquid tends to suds more than Tide HE Total Care. Vaska suds more than either of these products, especially with towels. Suds level will vary depending on the type of load you are washing - towels generate a lot more suds than t-shirts - as well the detergent being used.

I have recently become concerned with the amount of water being used by my W4842 with the Maximum Water Level function enabled. Starting with my laundry from this past weekend, I have disabled this feature and now am using normal rinse levels. After washing four loads, I notice no difference in the end result. I will be using this default setting from now on, since after doing a practical test I noticed no difference in the softness of the final product. I did notice, however, that some stains were better removed without the Max Water Level function enabled. I attribute that to the fact that when there is less water in the drum, the clothes tumble better and are not cushioned by a large volume of water. I think disabling this function - or more accurately, not turning it on in the first place since it is a feature that is normally hidden from view - is a win-win in my case.

I haven't used cheer but I cloth diaper and finding is a big issue for me. Put the detergent in with the clothes not in the dispenser. That way you aaren't fighting dispenser buildup. Cut your detergent in half. It took about 10 washes/rinsed to kill off some Tide residue when they began adding the liquid plastics for an emmulsifier. I'm guessing cheer did as well. If that doesn't help use a different detergent. I use only unscented because the petroleum smell of most detergent scent is gross to me and often will cover up clothes/diaper

@ sandy

Which ingredient in Tide HE are you referring to as "liquid plastics for an emulsifier"? I'm curious and would like to research this further, thank you.

Until my big shipment of German laundry products arrive in September,...Okay Larsi, ante-up, what are you getting this time in the goodie shipment? ;)

@ Fahrenheit...

My family arrives Tue 9/20 in the mid afternoon (Los Angeles time). I am so excited to see them, and get my hands on all the Persil, Lenor, Vernel, Ariel, Aldi, Dash...

I will of course post pics!! :)

I believe what Sandy was referring to ("liquid plastics for an emulsifier") almost a year ago was the "silicone" and "cleaning polymers" listed in Tide liquid ingredients. I always wondered why anyone would want to wash their laundry with plastics but then again one wouldn't need fabric softener.

I have the same problem with the liquid HE Cheer that Larsi had, same dark blue bottle. It makes a crazy amount of suds, and it takes multiple extra rinses to get it out. This happens no matter how little I use--and if I use too little, the clothes don't get clean. I'm going to give the remainder of the bottle away to the animal shelter. I have soft water (run a whole house softener). I have found that I also get more suds with Tide Free and Gentle than with the other Tide products I use. So far, I get the best results and cleanest rinse with Tide Total Care. For whites and extra grungy clothing, I use Tide Powder with Bleach. With both, I use about 1/3 of what the package says to use, and get good results. I have an Electrolux Wave touch, and always use the extra rinse feature.

Cj

@cj47...Yeah, it was awful. I finally gave it to a neighbor who has an OLD top loader, and she loves it!

For 99% of all my washing, I use Tide he Powder. Last week at Target was a great find... Tide re-launched Tide he Powder with Bleach (now called Vivid). It's great. I still love Persil, but have found that Tide he powder works "almost" the same. I LOVE the smell of Tide he powder too!! So light and soft!!

95% of the time, I use a powder detergent in our FL washer. IMO, they suds up less in our washer and water quality.

I use the cheer liquid for darks. It comes in a dark bottle. Not sure if that is what you are referring to
I have no sudsing issues with it, however my water is moderately hard (5-8 gr.)

Cavimum: "AND re: the froth/bubbles --- really, please explain as I would truly appreciate it. This FL uses so little water in the wash cycle that I never see a sudsy froth during the wash --- only the rinses."

We have never owned a Miele washing machine, so I cannot address brand-specific quirks, if that is what is causing the rinse frothing. But our area has very soft water, so if rinse frothing is an issue anywhere, one would expect it to be a bigger issue here -- and it is not even a small issue here.

FWIW, we use Biokleen All-Temperature liquid in our current Samsung WF419 front-loading machine. We use roughly half Biokleen's recommended dosage, but we add a scoop (about 1/3 cup) of 20 Mule Team borax to the mix as well. Among its other benefits, borax is known to act as a rinse aid. In the interests of science, I guess that I should try running a few loads without the borax and reporting back as to whether rinse frothing appeared, but we are happy with the way our laundry comes out, so are disinclined to make the science experiment.

BTW, Biokleen is entirely vegetable based (mainly grapefruit seeds and orange extracts), so there never is any petroleum related odor associated with its use.

Borax as a rinse aid. Really?

patann: "Borax as a rinse aid. Really?"

Really, based on personal experience. With our previous washing machines, we certainly saw more complete rinses when we added borax to the detergent at the beginning of the wash cycle than we did when we washed with detergent alone. We have owned our most recent washing machine for less than a year and a half, and never have tried washing without borax because of our past experience with borax.

There may be a cross-correlation involved, however. With borax added in the wash cycle, we achieve the washing machine's maximum washing performance using a lesser quantity of detergent per load than we should need to use if we used the detergent alone; so we have a smaller amount of detergent to rinse out of the clothes than we should have to rinse were we to wash to the same level of cleanliness without the borax.